Possible Workflows

[David Battistella]

I read 315 posts in the other thread and I really have had some fun considering all of the compelling questions. The more I think about it, and talk about it, the more I see that the 2K96fps would be a giant step forward.

If we consider that footage shot at REDCODE 2K at 7mb/sec then how much number crunching can there be to get to the 1080P and 720P resolutions? Wavelet is quite a fast algorithm.

We can import files directly into FCP (after REDCINE) and edit natively in REDCODE within FCP at either 720P or 1080P as the "offline codec". (did I just say 1080P as an offline codec?) and then always have 2K. 2K speed shots should uprez nicely to 4K.

In case of footage being shot 720P or 1080P wouldn't we still have to go through REDCINE to get footage off the drives and aren't the data rates going to be about the same?

My guess is that all we eliminate by shooting 720P or 1080P is any trans coding time from 2K to HD. We just don't know if it's 1MB/sec or 10MB/sec and that time will add up for some productions.

All we really loose with the 720P is the ability to shoot an extra 24FPS, which we could technically get back as CF card speed and firmware is updated.

So after going full circle I can see how Jim arrived at this question. (and it's a pot stirring challenging one) Why the heck should we shoot anything in a HD resolution?

I've been scratching my head all day.

One month before release and these questions still arise. You gotta have bollocks to even put it on the table. Way to go.

David

[tj williams]

The only reason to shoot HD directly is as you reiterated in this post and has been mentioned countlessly before is that you need to deliver immediately. Put it on the sat. send it to edit now.
for these uses RGB HD is the only way to put the RED camera into those jobs. For many of us who have reserved RED cameras these jobs are a significant part of our year.
You are only scratching your head if you do not have any of these jobs. Or what the heck I could always rent a Sony or Panasonic for those days and just lose the $800... or 21 of those jobs could pay for my RED Body.... dahhhhhh

[David Battistella]

The only reason to shoot HD directly is as you reiterated in this post and has been mentioned countlessly before is that you need to deliver immediately. Put it on the sat. send it to edit now.
for these uses RGB HD is the only way to put the RED camera into those jobs. For many of us who have reserved RED cameras these jobs are a significant part of our year.
You are only scratching your head if you do not have any of these jobs. Or what the heck I could always rent a Sony or Panasonic for those days and just lose the $800...

But my real question is how much time difference is it to shoot 2K and use REDCINE to go HD or shoot HD and use REDCINE to transfer/copy your HD?

I'm trying to figure out how vast that difference is. The footage is still going to have to be transfered from one media (RED DRIVE CF, ETC) to another (your HD, firewire drive, SATA raids or what ever).

That time difference or similarity is what is critical here. If the time is negligible then 2K is the only way to go.

David

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The only reason to shoot HD directly is as you reiterated in this post and has been mentioned countlessly before is that you need to deliver immediately. Put it on the sat. send it to edit now.

Hmmm... On the surface, I agree with that. But if you're sending footage to edit, you can load your REDCODE 2K/4K and edit away and output what is needed. If you need to deliver directly, then there could be other issues to consider... First off REDCODE RAW or REDCODE RGB are not going to instantly become standards that are supported in current systems. We're definitely going to see resistance in various markets, especially in the broadcast arena where Sony and Panasonic essentially dominate. So there's going to be conversion required or implied when you're shooting with RED. Or at least it will be that way initially and for how long after will depend on how badly the bulk of large broadcasters want immediate access to footage shot with RED. OTOH for in-place systems that are based on conventional PC/Mac hardware that can use QuickTime media, we're already set. REDCODE can generate real-time 1K and 2K proxies from 2K and 4K footage... We don't know much more than that yet, but it seems reasonable that we could dictate proxy sizes to match 720p or 1080p HDTV raster sizes to serve for immediate delivery and playback off of 4K acquisition. ....Hmmm. Lots still we don't know, lots to look forward to and test.

[David Battistella]

The only reason to shoot HD directly is as you reiterated in this post and has been mentioned countlessly before is that you need to deliver immediately. Put it on the sat. send it to edit now.

TJ,

To my understanding all footage from the RED will have to go through the REDCINE software. This means that it's going to have to go there before you can put it on the satellite or send it to EDIT NOW!

There is no Magic REDPLAYER that will instantly playback RED footage for immediate edit or satellite delivery, it has to go through this software process. That might occur on a laptop with an AJA HD I/O connected to it or something similar.

So this "tapeless" camera is something that we all need to wrap our head around for those situations.




You are only scratching your head if you do not have any of these jobs. Or what the heck I could always rent a Sony or Panasonic for those days and just lose the $800... or 21 of those jobs could pay for my RED Body.... dahhhhhh

If this is meant as some kind of insult I think it is uncalled for. I'm just trying to get a solid grasp of the workflow. which is powerful but less immediate than many people think.

David

[Jeff Kilgroe]

To my understanding all footage from the RED will have to go through the REDCINE software. This means that it's going to have to go there before you can put it on the satellite or send it to EDIT NOW!

RED footage as recorded is stored with a QuickTime reference file. It is immediately available to any QuickTime application on a system with the REDCODE QT codec installed -- without going through REDCINE. REDCINE is a tool that can be used initially to help assign LUTs and begin creating a look for the footage or to transcode, re-frame, up/down-res, etc..

[Anders Holck]

Again, if you drop 1080p RGB the only way to use the full 35mm sensor is 4k RAW. 2k is the 16mm crop only.

The "magic REDPLAYER" is the quicktime codec, enables playback in every QT app. And FCP should have native support in a future version. So no you dont have to convert to do instant editing.

The dilemma here is really the speed of 1080p RGB compared to 4k RAW.

The RGB codec should be able to play full quality to a I/O box. I doubt 4k RAW will be able to do that in high quality 1080p.

[Michael Brennan]

TJ,

To my understanding all footage from the RED will have to go through the REDCINE software. This means that it's going to have to go there before you can put it on the satellite or send it to EDIT NOW!

There is no Magic REDPLAYER that will instantly playback RED footage for immediate edit or satellite delivery, it has to go through this software process. That might occur on a laptop with an AJA HD I/O connected to it or something similar.

David

Isn't it possible to shoot on RED, then replay from camera via HDSDI to sat truck tape deck for quick turnaround?
Isnt the RED camera the "magic player"?

or have I missed something?

Mike Brennan

[David Battistella]

Isn't it possible to shoot on RED, then replay from camera via HDSDI to sat truck tape deck for quick turnaround?
Isnt the RED camera the "magic player"?

or have I missed something?

Mike Brennan

Mike,

I have searched for an th threads about his and I do not think that you will be able to playback RED footage from the camera through the HDSDI port. That might only be HOT with a live picture. PLus you could not be SHooting and doing that at the same time.

I think it is more likely that you would shoot to CF and then hand the SF card to somebody.

David

[David Battistella]

Again, if you drop 1080p RGB the only way to use the full 35mm sensor is 4k RAW. 2k is the 16mm crop only.

The "magic REDPLAYER" is the quicktime codec, enables playback in every QT app. And FCP should have native support in a future version. So no you dont have to convert to do instant editing.

The dilemma here is really the speed of 1080p RGB compared to 4k RAW.

The RGB codec should be able to play full quality to a I/O box. I doubt 4k RAW will be able to do that in high quality 1080p.

Anders,

When I used the term magic RED player I meant to illustrate that there is no recode deck per say. It was to illustrate that in a live set up you will still need a "device" (laptop computer with appropriate software and HD I/O capability such as the AJA HD I/O).

Am I correct then in assuming that the looks of 1080P and 720P are baked into the file or is the file just given a QT wrapper in this format for easy playback to an NLE.

Let's think about this. You shoot 4K redcode on a CF. The most it's going to be is an 8 GIG transfer through REDCINE to whatever codec you want. Even in a quick turnaround situation this shouldn't be a ton slower than REDCODE RGB at 1080P.

David

[David Battistella]

Could someone from RED TEAM who really know the inner workings of the different workflows please shed some light on this?

I've done a search but have not been able to turn this up.

Thanks,

David

[M Most]

The "magic REDPLAYER" is the quicktime codec, enables playback in every QT app. And FCP should have native support in a future version. So no you dont have to convert to do instant editing.


No, but you do have to convert to get the best quality demosaic and high quality scaling for 1080p.

[Michael Brennan]

Mike,

I have searched for an th threads about his and I do not think that you will be able to playback RED footage from the camera through the HDSDI port. That might only be HOT with a live picture. PLus you could not be SHooting and doing that at the same time.

I think it is more likely that you would shoot to CF and then hand the SF card to somebody.

David

I've searched the threads and can't find a direct reference to RED replay from camera, but then there are a lot of holes in the RED cheese that exist through its fast development and planned imminent functionality:)



RED USER forum member Dave Fareland wrote that RED team member Deanan replied to a Geoff Boyle post on CML with words to the effect that "playback wasn't an option that it was fundemental."

I reckon most RED Users assume RED can playback, if it doesn't playback in camera now I hope it will eventually!

At risk of looking foolish I'll ask the rather obvious question in a new thread


Mike Brennan

[Antoine Baumann]

Yes you can replay from camera



Let's think about this. You shoot 4K redcode on a CF. The most it's going to be is an 8 GIG transfer through REDCINE to whatever codec you want. Even in a quick turnaround situation this shouldn't be a ton slower than REDCODE RGB at 1080P.

I think you are right, but we will see. And to add a little bit of factor, I remember to have read that the REDCODE RGB would not have WB or such things bake in, like the Viper does. So you might still need some CC on your RGB footage.
But hey it's been long time since you have heard about REDCODE RGB...

antoine.

[Michael Brennan]

Yes you can replay from camera

Antoine
I can't find it in print anywhere, where did you hear it?


Have asked the foolish question in a new thread so answer from one of the big red badge boys will end the speculation!


Mike Brennan

[Rob Lohman]

Wavelet is quite a fast algorithm.

It's actually quite slow and resource intensive to encode & decode.

Yes, camera will have playback option.

[Steve Gibby]

Nothing has been finalized, but here's some RED Team playback references from my archives:



“Yes to an available HD output in both recording modes and playback.

The camera can perform real time RAW to RGB processing, White Balance, Gamma and scaling to create a 720p “HD Preview “ of the RAW signal being recorded to (played back from) the Digital Magazine.

REDCINE can give you a similar capability with pre-recorded footage, except that the “preview” is on your computer monitor.”

Stuart English
4/14/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1498



“Yes, 1080p is the highest video resolution available from the camera during playback and this is provided from one or both of the "dual link" HD-SDI's.”

Stuart English
2/7/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=444&page=20




“The camera already supports instant slow motion playback following off-speed capture. No NEED for an external device just to do that function.”

Stuart English
1/30/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=444&page=4




“Remote control of camera clip playback could be made available via RS232 hard wire or 802.11 wireless, framing guidelines for HD resolution images we can resolve. If you want SD resolution images, there are external converters for that.”

Stuart English
1/30/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=444&page=7

[David Battistella]

It's actually quite slow and resource intensive to encode & decode.

Yes, camera will have playback option.

Sorry Rob. I sort of meant this in terms of drawing the 2K, 1K, .5 K proxies from the 4K file, which i understand to be a rather quick process.

David