NEW 720p vs 2K/96fps POLL: Let's see where we stand with realistic options!

[Dominic Jones]

OK, since Jim has now publicly stated that scaled 2K 96fps RGB is off the menu, let's produce a meaningful poll to see what the preferences are in terms of realistic options...

The two options, it seems, are:

1) 720p RGB @ 120fps max, from windowed S16 sensor area.

2) 2K Redcode RAW @ 96-100fps max, from windowed S16 sensor area.

NB: Both options involve a windowed S16 sensor area for high framerates, although 720p @ < 60fps can be scaled from the 35mm sensor area.

I know it's another poll to vote in on the issue, but I think it's a better way of proceeding than simply assuming that those who voted for 2K scaled in the last poll would simply shift their votes to 2K windowed - this way there can be no confusion or doubt over what the board is really saying. Apologies if this is not the common consensus...

Also, it gives people a chance to change their minds as a lot more debate has taken place in the last day or two!

[Antoine Baumann]

thanks to put that up. We have now real options to vote for.

The only question I have, is if we have 2K@96-100fps, does it mean that there is no more possibility to record RGB, like a 1080p RGB unless you use the HD-SDI output?

antoine.

[Dominic Jones]

I think the issue of 1080p RGB recording is still a bit up in the air - I know Gibby supports 1080p on-board, and I would definitely like to see this included as well. RAW is great, but there are a lot of markets that 1080p will open up that will not be particularly fond of the RAW workflow.

There's also been queries about the possibility of a firmware flash to "select" 1080p (and maybe 720p) vs 2K HS, which if user-updateable would be a fantastic solution, as you're highly unlikely to ever need both on the same shoot (I can't think, off the top of my head, of a single instance where this might be necessary, although I'm sure there is one somewhere out there in someone's workflow!).

There's been no official word as yet, afaik...

[RedMagent]

Jim, the people have spoken!

[baro]

1) 720p RGB @ 120fps max, from windowed S16 sensor area.

2) 2K Redcode RAW @ 96-100fps max, from windowed S16 sensor area.

NB: Both options involve a windowed S16 sensor area for high framerates, although 720p @ < 60fps can be scaled from the 35mm sensor area.

This is a bit misleading I think.

At the 1) option '2K Redcode RAW @ 96-100fps max' you can only record up to 30 fps using the full sensor.

While at the 2) option '720p RGB @ 120fps max' you can record up to 60 fps using the full sensor.

[David Cubbage]

I am buying Red for it's full 35mm sensor; coupled with the Red primes I've ordered, I see no need for me to shoot any other way than 4K and down-rez to deliverable formats with Redcine, if the need arises. For me, this is a much more flexible way to shoot than shooting RGB 1080p/720p and missing out on the wonderful advantages of shooting with the superb Mysterium sensor the Red team have developed.

I understand and sympathize with a lot of the comments and arguments made on Jim's original post regarding the loss of the RGB options and I have delayed voting until now because it wouldn't really effect me either way the way I plan to shoot. But if Jim has asked us to comment then I am in favour of loosing 720p RGB to make room for increasing the options in other formats.

Thanks Dominic for putting this up; the other poll was very misleading because it didn't give us the options as Jim stated.

[Nils Ruinet]

At the 1) option '2K Redcode RAW @ 96-100fps max' you can only record up to 30 fps using the full sensor.


No, you can't... 2K RAW can't be scaled from the full sensor, so AFAIK 2K RAW is always windowed, even under 30 fps.

[Stephen Webb]

Another useful thing to know (which may help settle the debate) is this. Given that if you want a 720p/1080p deliverable you'll have to transcode it anyway, what kind of speed difference is there between:

1) Transcoding from Redcode RGB 720p/1080p to the deliverable format

and

2) Transcoding from 2K Redcode RAW to the deliverable format?

Obviously the answer may vary depending on what you're deliverable format is (HDCAM, DVCProHD, Uncompressed HD) but it would be good to get a comparison to judge by.

[baro]

No, you can't... 2K RAW can't be scaled from the full sensor, so AFAIK 2K RAW is always windowed, even under 30 fps.

I mean if Jim chooses to go with option 2), he will remove the RGB scaled recording and your only option for recording the full frame will be to record the 4K Redcode RAW. And this has a maximum of 30 fps rate.

If Jim chooses to go with option 1), you will be able to record the full frame with the scaled 1080p RGB Redcode mode. This has a maximum rate of 60 fps.

So if you want to record between 31 and 60 fps, in one case you can scale down the full frame while in the other case you can only record in 2K windowed mode.

60 fps is important if you want to produce a broadcast format (1080i or 720p). So if this is what you want to do, in one case you will have a 2K debayered image which will be softer than the images from a 3CCD camera using 1080p chips. On the other hand a down scaled image would be superior to such a camera.

Even if the RGB mode is gone, you will still be able to record full frame 60 fps to HDCAM through HD-SDI (if HD-SDI remains in place), but it will be only an 8 bit signal versus the visually lossless 10 bit Redcode RGB wavelet compression. You need an expensive HDCAM SR recorder to match the quality of the onboard recording options.

So for broadcast the old '720p RGB @ 120fps max' option made the Red camera superior to almost any broadcast camera quality and recording wise.

[Nils Ruinet]

I mean if Jim chooses to go with option 2), he will remove the RGB scaled recording and your only option for recording the full frame will be to record the 4K Redcode RAW. And this has a maximum of 30 fps rate.

If Jim chooses to go with option 1), you will be able to record the full frame with the scaled 1080p RGB Redcode mode. This has a maximum rate of 60 fps.

So if you want to record between 31 and 60 fps, in one case you can scale down the full frame while in the other case you can only record in 2K windowed mode.

Ok I get what you meant...
Right.

[Mark Crabtree]

There was some talk about the 2K not needing to be windowed.
I'd rather have the full frame to keep the DOF.

[Jason Murphy]

There was some talk about the 2K not needing to be windowed. I'd rather have the full frame to keep the DOF.

If you're shooting 2K RAW, it's going to be cropped. Can't get around that. 1080p RGB can be scaled from the full frame, though you'd lose out on all the advantages of shooting RAW. I think there was some question as to whether you might be able to crop RAW to the equivalent of Academy ratio as opposed to 2:1/16:9, but I'm not sure that's possible either given the current setup.

[PaulClements]

Isn't this poll still incorrect since Jim is talking about ditching 1080p as well? I'd happily ditch 720p for faster frame rates but there are many reasons to keep 1080p on the camera.

[baro]

1080p RGB can be scaled from the full frame, though you'd lose out on all the advantages of shooting RAW.

Usually the biggest advantage of the RAW format versus other formats is that it gives you all the bits so in post you have more room for color correction. But the RGB Redcode compression is a 10 bit compression so it preserves the color information quite well.

[LighthouseMEdia]

AGREED!!!
PLEASE KEEP 1080P for a number of projects where 1080 is more than sufficient I prefer to deal with the lower res footage, the recording options and variety of options of Red are part of what make this camera so appealing.

[Jason Murphy]

Usually the biggest advantage of the RAW format versus other formats is that it gives you all the bits so in post you have more room for color correction. But the RGB Redcode compression is a 10 bit compression so it preserves the color information quite well.

You're absolutely right about this being the major advantage of shooting Redcode RAW. In the case of the RED One, however, the other advantage would most likely be that shooting in RAW mode will give a lower data rate than shooting in RGB mode. As far as I know (and I could be wrong about this - someone please jump in and correct me on this if I'm mistaken), although data rate numbers for Redcode RGB aren't known yet, they're expected to be higher than RAW, which may make a big difference when recording to CF, for example.

Regardless, recording 1080p in Redcode RGB definitely has its uses. As many people have mentioned, to axe onboard 1080p recording would be a big mistake if you want the camera to be taken seriously as a competitor in the broadcast and EFP markets.

UNLESS, (and this is a big unless) Redcine downconvert/render times from 4k/2k Redcode RAW to 1080p RGB are so ridiculously fast that the time saved by shooting 1080p becomes negligible. I highly doubt this will be the case, but really, we don't have any solid info on this at the moment, so we'll wait and see.

[baro]

For a broadcast format Redcine cannot make up for the lack of full frame 60 fps data.

[Michael Hastings]

So for broadcast the old '720p RGB @ 120fps max' option made the Red camera superior to almost any broadcast camera quality and recording wise.

Damn, that's pretty decent point.!


AGREED!!!
PLEASE KEEP 1080P for a number of projects where 1080 is more than sufficient I prefer to deal with the lower res footage, the recording options and variety of options of Red are part of what make this camera so appealing.

and that is too! So the first question is which can happen first, it seems to me we were told RGB would be one of the last things implemented (RGB onboard is a whole 'nuther deal). So maybe we go with the 2K 96 for now and push for the option of field reprogramming the FPGA for those who need or want the 720p/1080p options. That might give all of us a nice immediate upgrade (2K 96 that is) and take a little pressure off the REDteam for getting RGB finished.

The guy on the other thread that posed the idea of letting the user program the FPGA for his desired mode made a lot of sense. After all I think the FP in FPGA stands for field programmbable and I assume the simple CF card update process that Jim has talked about includes updating the FPGA.

Jim, any thoughts?

[Joe Carney]

For DCinema and Syndicated shows, 2k raw is the way to go, but I'm wondering what the addtional costs would be to get the final to an HDCAM SR tape?
I know a lot of the national cable stations increasingly accept either portable drives or delivery via satellite, so I'm wondering how a RedCine to mpeg2 ouput would work, given the need for CC and audio checking.
With the upcoming conversion to mpeg4, same questions.

Will it be legal to distribute a playback version of Redcode. That would probably make the 1080p/tape issue less important.

[Jason Murphy]

For a broadcast format Redcine cannot make up for the lack of full frame 60 fps data.

Fair enough. I completely overlooked that in my last post. Seems that if you want to go faster than 30 FPS in RAW mode, you'd either need to shoot windowed 2K Redcode at 60 FPS or you'll need the RAW data port, neither of which are optimal.

[Don King]

What for a new poll? This is silly.

[Stephen Webb]

What for a new poll? This is silly.

Maybe because the other poll includes an option that's impossible?

[Häakon]

I agree, 1080p scaled from the full sensor has to stay. It's the only way to get 60fps from the full sensor onboard, and will provide a much needed way for many users to deal with their footage immediately in post. As for this poll, I really am ambivalent... I *personally* won't be shooting windowed with the camera, so it's a toss up for me. BUT if voting for the 2K/96 option means nuking both 720 AND 1080 onboard, then I just can't support it. My vote is for whatever configuration will keep 1080p60 from the full sensor intact. If they both will do this, then either side can have my vote. :-)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I agree, 1080p scaled from the full sensor has to stay.

Agreed.

Now I also have to wonder if there's really much point to this poll anyway. Reading Jim's posts, it doesn't seem like we're choosing between the two (720/1080p RGB recording vs. 2K windowed).

The way I took it is that Jim was asking if we still wanted 720p/1080p RGB capabilities, to which many people said they did because of the possibility of 720p at 120fps. And then the next question was if it would be OK to drop 720p if they could still deliver 2K windowed at 96fps.

In other words, 2K windowed has always been part of the spec and I think we're going to get the highest frame rate they can give us, currently 96fps as a maximum looks possible. And this is going to happen whether they keep 720p or not.

As stated before, I couldn't care less what happens to onboard 720p (I know, I'm self-serving). But the 1080p does need to stay. And being realistic about it, that means that both 720p and 1080p will stay because we're talking about support for onboard RGB recording with either one. If 1080p is there and enabled, it's hardly a stretch of resources to support the same functionality to record 720p. The point in eliminating them would be to eliminate onboard recording to REDCODE RGB, as a whole. To save FCPGA / DSP space or resources.

[Häakon]

The way I took it is that Jim was asking if we still wanted 720p/1080p RGB capabilities, to which many people said they did because of the possibility of 720p at 120fps. And then the next question was if it would be OK to drop 720p if they could still deliver 2K windowed at 96fps.

In other words, 2K windowed has always been part of the spec and I think we're going to get the highest frame rate they can give us, currently 96fps as a maximum looks possible. And this is going to happen whether they keep 720p or not.

I think your whole post was really smart (and I'm with you on what should stay), but reading through it, I feel like some parts are somewhat contradictory.

Just so I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that since 2K windowed has always been part of the spec, and since you think we're going to get the highest frame rate they can possibly give us in this mode (96fps?), then regardless of what happens we're definitely getting 2K at 96fps. Right?

Reading further, you're saying (and I agree) that 1080 has to stay. And if 1080 stays, then 720 stays, because RGB recording would already be enabled and making the provision for 720 would be no big deal (I don't know if this is or not, just trying to paraphrase what you wrote). However, if 720 and 1080 are staying, and 2K at 96fps is staying, then what's out? Jim started the topic because he was saying there isn't room for everything - so something has to go (if we keep all these options).

The missing piece is, of course, 120fps in the 720p mode, but is that more taxing on the FCPGA than enabling RGB recording altogether? Again, I'm no engineer - but I'd be surprised if that was the case. It seems like when dealing with more fps what you need is more bandwidth and a faster processor to deal with the data, not space on the FCPGA for those instructions. In other words, it already knows how to write a 720p image from the scaled window - you just need to record those frames faster. So if that's actually the case (and notice that Jim did say that both 720p AND 1080p are losers), I think that's why some of us are worried that enabling 96fps in 2K will banish the RGB options entirely. And that's not cool. :-)

Again, most of this stuff is speculation as we don't have an official answer yet, but there is a lot of good discussion happening either way!

[Justin Anderson]

Truthfully though, you could always add the 720p later if you wanted to as a firmware update, right?

[Tom Lowe]

This poll is gonna be a blow out.

[Jeremy Hughes]

I would love the 1080p120 feature if it's possible yet. Was that a live output or was that able to be recorded onboard?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Just so I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that since 2K windowed has always been part of the spec, and since you think we're going to get the highest frame rate they can possibly give us in this mode (96fps?), then regardless of what happens we're definitely getting 2K at 96fps. Right?

Yep. That's what I was saying... 2K windowed has always been part of the spec over this past year or more. Frame rates on RED are variable, so we shouldn't be looking at increases in FPGA or other internal space requirements to enable rates up to 96fps vs 60fps. So if 96fps is do-able in 2K windowed REDCODE RAW, then I would figure this will happen regardless... Just as we were already expecting 2K windowed REDCODE RAW at 60fps.


Reading further, you're saying (and I agree) that 1080 has to stay. And if 1080 stays, then 720 stays, because RGB recording would already be enabled and making the provision for 720 would be no big deal (I don't know if this is or not, just trying to paraphrase what you wrote).

Correct. And I'm obviously not privy to the internals of RED and how they have designed the internal FPGA, DSPs, etc... But if onboard scaling and recording of RGB is enabled, the actual resolutions available shouldn't put too much additional strain on resources. To me this seems to be a question of having enough internal space to accommodate RGB recording algorithms. Mode specifications shouldn't be more than a handful of bytes to assign parameters to the RGB record infrastructure. Mode specs could even conceivably be loaded via SD or CF cards or other interfaces. So, if 1080p RGB recording is retained, then 720p should be nothing more than a few parameter changes from there.


However, if 720 and 1080 are staying, and 2K at 96fps is staying, then what's out? Jim started the topic because he was saying there isn't room for everything - so something has to go (if we keep all these options).

Now this is where I get a little confused too... Obviously internal resources are being stretched to their limits. Jim said "We don't have to change anything... it was just a thought." And he mentioned getting creative at the last minute. He said that shooting 720p and 1080p are a waste of time and he (and it seemed he implied the RED team as a whole) wouldn't ever shoot these modes. So it seems there's no need to deviate from the intended record modes, but there's a desire to. Why does Jim feel that 720p and 1080p are a waste of time? Is 4K and 2K acquisition, post and delivery really that simple? Are there other things that are coming to light now that could benefit from the FPGA space freed up by not including the RGB record modes?


The missing piece is, of course, 120fps in the 720p mode, but is that more taxing on the FCPGA than enabling RGB recording altogether? Again, I'm no engineer - but I'd be surprised if that was the case. It seems like when dealing with more fps what you need is more bandwidth and a faster processor to deal with the data, not space on the FCPGA for those instructions.

My thoughts exactly. And reading back through it all, it seems that everyone got hung up on 720p 120 vs. 2K 96, when that isn't the real issue at hand. But rather do we want to retain the ability to record REDCODE RGB 720p and 1080p onboard the camera.


I think that's why some of us are worried that enabling 96fps in 2K will banish the RGB options entirely. And that's not cool. :-)

I don't think that's the case. I think Jim was saying that we'll get the 2K 96fps (or somewhere about there, maybe even 100fps). And he wants to know if having that ability would negate the desire for 720p 120fps because he would like to eliminate the whole 720p & 1080p RGB functionality to save FPGA space for something else.


Again, most of this stuff is speculation as we don't have an official answer yet, but there is a lot of good discussion happening either way!

Yep... I think I'm waiting for Jim to chime in on the matter again. Lots of speculation laced with confusion around here.

[Häakon]

I would love the 1080p120 feature if it's possible yet. Was that a live output or was that able to be recorded onboard?
I would love the feature that does my laundry and cooks my breakfast, if that's possible too... :tongue:

Kidding aside, I don't ever remember hearing a mention of 1080p120 ever being a plan or possibility with the first gen of this camera. I think it's always been 720p120 (from scaled 2K only) or 1080p60.

[Don King]

Maybe because the other poll includes an option that's impossible?

Impossible, did you say impossible? Could we guess then this last update?