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View Full Version : It was a long road...


laguun
08-25-2009, 08:53 PM
... however this Friday, there will be, finally, the excellent news for anyone shopping for prime lenses.

we had to be silent for months, since nab, but i suppose that in 3 days everyone will understand why :)
Roberto Lequeux
08-25-2009, 09:21 PM
OK... cool. I hope my jaw drops. Can we hear any details? And is the three day timeline a hard one or might it change?
Frank Weeks
08-25-2009, 09:26 PM
I hope you are right. It's too late for me (i'm a proud owner of the RPPs) but competition is always a good thing.
Matt Uhry
08-25-2009, 09:47 PM
Last time we did this the buildup was lengthy and the payoff was totally lame. Not buying tickets to the sequel. May catch it on DVD or Cable.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
Joe Walker
08-26-2009, 08:02 AM
Oh, and it's worth noting that the forums now require first and last names so you may want to change that.
Liam Hall
08-26-2009, 08:36 AM
Why not wait for three days before you announce?? Last time we walked down this road it turned into a farce. I hope you pull it off this time, I really do, not least because you made some big claims about these products, but really this is not a good way to launch a product.
Sanjin Jukic
08-26-2009, 09:01 AM
It could be interesting this weekend for us, as usual forum "hangers".
SandeepDey
08-26-2009, 09:18 AM
aaah again... nice! we love suspense movies here don't we?
Rob Gardner
08-26-2009, 01:59 PM
Seems like the last time we went through this it was a long walk to find out that the store is closed...
Tony Lorentzen
08-27-2009, 02:56 PM
That road was just way too long. Already paid for the RED Pro Primes...
Matt Gottshalk
08-27-2009, 03:04 PM
Last time we did this the buildup was lengthy and the payoff was totally lame. Not buying tickets to the sequel. May catch it on DVD or Cable.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

Exactly.
Paul Hazlett
08-27-2009, 03:50 PM
too late to the dance, my card is filled
Andrae Palmer
08-27-2009, 04:03 PM
Same here... my lens case if filled. Of course I could always fill it again if you have a lens kit that can beat the Master Primes for a cheaper price. :-)
MichaelHalsell
08-27-2009, 04:10 PM
Laguun,

What's happening Friday? New glass on the market?
NateWeaver
08-27-2009, 04:43 PM
I have no ire for anybody in particular, but the established method of teasing out products here is beyond old. Selling professional products as if they're objects of desire is for cars and jewelry, not tools I make my living with.
Roger Patronen
08-27-2009, 05:20 PM
Laguun I probably would not even purchase Gaffer Tape from you at this point. It feels like you and the company you are officially representing tried to use Red style marketing but you failed miserably in your attempt.

It is too bad because I had alot of respect for you before this stunt, now I think of you as a used car salesman trying to make a quick buck.
Tony Lorentzen
08-27-2009, 06:07 PM
Yeah - and why haven't you complied with the "real names" policy here a long time ago?
Nick Wolf
08-27-2009, 06:40 PM
I think it takes courage to come back and face the crowd after set backs. He is a major contributor for a very long time to this community and deserves a chance to speak again.

There is no need to form a lynch mob on account of disappointment. Its one thing to be critical and quite something else to use the insident as a license to be mean spirited.


DogDay.
Vladimir Eugene
08-27-2009, 10:51 PM
The first go around with the German Mystery Primes- I believe Laguun wasn't personally invested in their outcome. If that is the case, by now have you had the chance to see how they match up to other primes, older established, and newer ones??

vlad
Sanjin Jukic
08-27-2009, 11:40 PM
Friday morning here in Vienna...

still waiting....
Liam Hall
08-28-2009, 02:50 AM
Yep, Friday here in the glorious English countryside (well cold, gray and wet countryside). I've got several roads I can walk down, which will it be?
Ramesh Jai
08-28-2009, 05:48 AM
I think it takes courage to come back and face the crowd after set backs. He is a major contributor for a very long time to this community and deserves a chance to speak again.

There is no need to form a lynch mob on account of disappointment. Its one thing to be critical and quite something else to use the insident as a license to be mean spirited.


DogDay.

I agree with you. Let's be mature about this.
Oliver Skibbe
08-28-2009, 06:25 AM
From www.ibe-optics.com (http://www.ibe-optics.com/RED_PRIMES_REBEL_Lenses):

http://www.ibe-optics.com/media/intemplate/27_RED_Star_2.jpg

--> http://www.ibe-optics.com/media/raw/Red_Star.pdf
Pawel Achtel
08-28-2009, 06:34 AM
Wow! Looks promising.

When and how much? And, can I play with one?
Nils J. Nesse
08-28-2009, 06:37 AM
Well they certainly look much better, than the Rebel lenses shown at NAB. The Schneider-Kreuznach logo is comforting.

Looks like a detachable(?) hood, I guess the front element still expands through focus, inside the hood?

The Rebel lenses were a T1.9, this set varies from T2.2 to 2.0, not so exciting.
joakim_hansson
08-28-2009, 06:48 AM
Weight and size seems nice. 18 blade iris sounds promising. Nice design too.
Hopefully weŽll see some tests soon.
Phil Jordan
08-28-2009, 09:59 AM
Looks like a trademark violation to me. I wonder if RED gave them permission to call them RED*STAR.
joakim_hansson
08-28-2009, 10:02 AM
Has red copyrighted a color? :D
Phil Jordan
08-28-2009, 10:06 AM
Has red copyrighted a color? :D

Apparently so at least in this industry.
Jacek Zakowicz
08-28-2009, 10:09 AM
From www.ibe-optics.com (http://www.ibe-optics.com/RED_PRIMES_REBEL_Lenses):

http://www.ibe-optics.com/media/intemplate/27_RED_Star_2.jpg

--> http://www.ibe-optics.com/media/raw/Red_Star.pdf
These look a lot like UO lenses. I wonder....
UO is really trying, first with RED, now this?
joakim_hansson
08-28-2009, 10:19 AM
Apparently so at least in this industry.

Haha yeah I guess so... WouldnŽt wanna be in Angenieux shoes if someone translates "rouge" then.
Roger Patronen
08-28-2009, 10:22 AM
You need to be pretty dumb to name your lens REDSTAR. That is a pretty clear Violation.

Just got off the phone with my friend in Germany. Said realistic volume shipping mid 2010.
Mitch Gross
08-28-2009, 10:52 AM
These are not the UniQoptics lenses. They are an evolution from the Rebel lenses shown at Abel's booth at NAB. Red*Star is a worldwide trademark from Schneider for decades. They won a technical Oscar for their projection lenses.

Do not judge the lenses from a bad experience with the way you heard about them. Please judge them on their merits. Come to IBC to find out more.
Sanjin Jukic
08-28-2009, 10:56 AM
Then AbelCine is probably exclusive reseller for US market...???!!!
Paul Hazlett
08-28-2009, 11:23 AM
I must say I am underwhelmed so far.
Phil Jordan
08-28-2009, 11:32 AM
Trademarks are considered abandoned if not used for 7 years.
Liam Hall
08-28-2009, 11:54 AM
Do not judge the lenses from a bad experience with the way you heard about them. Please judge them on their merits. Come to IBC to find out more.
I agree we shouldn't judge the lenses because of the embarrassing way they have been brought to market. A little info on pricing and a schedule of release of the wides would have helped restore some customer faith, sadly unless I'm a complete dolt I can find any info on either topic. And why should I have to go to Amsterdam to find out? Been there, done that...
Michael Hastings
08-28-2009, 12:04 PM
These are not the UniQoptics lenses. They are an evolution from the Rebel lenses shown at Abel's booth at NAB. Red*Star is a worldwide trademark from Schneider for decades. They won a technical Oscar for their projection lenses.

Do not judge the lenses from a bad experience with the way you heard about them. Please judge them on their merits. Come to IBC to find out more.


Trademarks are considered abandoned if not used for 7 years.

It gets a little tiring hearing all of the "expert" assessments of trademark infringement. The U.S. copyright and patent offices do little or nothing to vet the merits of a copyright or patent application so as a practical matter trademark and patent "rights" are determined by court fights (or the threat of litigation).

As a general rule, the more generic a word is (and it doesn't get much more generic than the word RED - one of the three primary colors) the harder it would be to establish trademark rights AND the narrower the field for which it would be applicable. But given that it ultimately has to be decided in court it more often comes down to the depth of the pockets involved, rather than an honest legal evaluation. On the other hand RED can't just look the other way when it comes to the grey areas because one of the legal requirements of establishing and maintaining a trademark is that you have to vigorously defend it.

The "Sue me, Sue you blues" aspect isn't that harmful when it comes to trademarks since it is just about the money to be made through branding, but it is a big problem in the patent area because it really does stifle innovation and distorts the process of product development in a lot of areas.

END OF RANT
Mitch Gross
08-28-2009, 12:42 PM
Prices, delivery schedule and other aspects of these lenses has not yet been established. They are very much brand new, and an ever-evolving product. As soon as there is something solid to report from Abel's perspective, then I will gladly do so.

When the first generation of RED primes were shown at NAB as prototypes I do not recall this sort of negative reaction. The lenses shown at NAB were prototypes. A lot of valuable feedback came from the convention and much development has occurred. These are not selling products yet so it is again by definition prototypes that will be shown at IBC. We hope that they are closer to the finished product, but we shall see.

The new Luma Tech lenses shown at NAB were prototypes as well, and they went back to be redesigned after getting response at the show.

This is a process, a way that manufacturers have developed product for years. It could all be kept secret until the finished product was debuted, or you could get a glimpse along the way and put in your two cents for what you would like to see them become. Or you can choose not to look until the product is completed and the final version is released.
Liam Hall
08-28-2009, 01:17 PM
Prices, delivery schedule and other aspects of these lenses has not yet been established...
(EDIT)
...This is a process, a way that manufacturers have developed product for years.

I understand all of that. Sadly, the OP doesn't;


... however this Friday, there will be, finally, the excellent news for anyone shopping for prime lenses.

If he said this Friday we'll be showcasing our latest PROTOTYPE there would have been a more positive reaction, don't you think?
Paul Hazlett
08-28-2009, 01:35 PM
I understand all of that. Sadly, the OP doesn't;



If he said this Friday we'll be showcasing our latest PROTOTYPE there would have been a more positive reaction, don't you think?

too true
Evin Grant
08-28-2009, 04:25 PM
According to the chart they weigh only slightly less than the RPPs or Uniques and still no 18mm. I personally feel any set without a 16mm or 18mm is incomplete.
Victor Papalucas
08-29-2009, 04:25 AM
Why so small focus scale ?
Roberto Lequeux
08-29-2009, 06:21 PM
Are those the ones laguun is talking about then? I wish he updated the first post.

I really don't want spend any more time trying to figure out which lenses they are... if you know what I mean.

Lagun, can you please edit the first post so things are clear?

Or has he not come through with the info?
Mitch Gross
08-29-2009, 10:15 PM
They are in fact the same lenses.
Mitch Gross
08-29-2009, 10:21 PM
Why so small focus scale ?

Why do you feel the focus scales are small?
filip kovcin
08-30-2009, 12:33 AM
can someone kindly explain this for me - if these lenses were re-designed, but basically the same as previous version of rebel lenses,

http://www.ibe-optics.com/RED_PRIMES_REBEL_Lenses

why there is difference in T stop now, comparing to previous model?

different glass inside? approach?

thank you,


filip
Victor Papalucas
08-30-2009, 01:32 AM
Why do you feel the focus scales are small?

Example:
There are no marks between 5 and 15 meters.
Mitch Gross
08-30-2009, 01:26 PM
Example:
There are no marks between 5 and 15 meters.

Where are you seeing this? On an image of one of the new lens designs or from the original prototypes shown?

EDIT: Nevermind, I found it. Ignore that. It's only an artist's render, not the final product.
Roberto Lequeux
08-30-2009, 03:09 PM
So they are not ready. However those are the ones he is talking about.

What is/will be the price?
Mitch Gross
08-30-2009, 08:55 PM
There are physical lenses in existence. In fact I believe they were shown at a Chinese trade fair this weekend (hope they don't get knocked off!). They will be at IBC in less than two weeks.

I will know more about pricing shortly after IBC. If I knew more now I would gladly tell you. Abel consulted on much of the redesign from the previous prototypes. We still need to complete our analysis of the current generation. They were just completed in time for IBC so we still need to vet them.

As Matt Duclos noted in another thread, the optical quality of the first protos was excellent. But there was other work that needd to be done.
Sanjin Jukic
08-31-2009, 12:38 AM
There are physical lenses in existence. In fact I believe they were shown at a Chinese trade fair this weekend (hope they don't get knocked off!). They will be at IBC in less than two weeks.

I will know more about pricing shortly after IBC. If I knew more now I would gladly tell you. Abel consulted on much of the redesign from the previous prototypes. We still need to complete our analysis of the current generation. They were just completed in time for IBC so we still need to vet them.

As Matt Duclos noted in another thread, the optical quality of the first protos was excellent. But there was other work that needd to be done.

If those lenses could be a bit cheaper then RPPs (with my huge doubt) maybe they would win the market... but also there is no any cheap product "Made in Germany" today...!!!????
Ryan S
08-31-2009, 01:24 AM
There are physical lenses in existence. In fact I believe they were shown at a Chinese trade fair this weekend (hope they don't get knocked off!).

Damn, where was that? I was in Beijing until just yesterday, and I'll be back again in a few days....
Mitch Gross
08-31-2009, 07:23 AM
Sorry, think you just missed it...

http://www.birtv.com/english/
Victor Papalucas
08-31-2009, 07:38 AM
EDIT: Nevermind, I found it. Ignore that. It's only an artist's render, not the final product.

Thank you very much.

Schneider Kreuznach will sell these lenses or somebody else ... ?
Mitch Gross
08-31-2009, 07:39 AM
These lenses will be a Schneider product.
Victor Papalucas
08-31-2009, 07:43 AM
These lenses will be a Schneider product.

That sounds great !

Thanks
Nils J. Nesse
08-31-2009, 07:47 AM
These lenses will be a Schneider product.

So they will no longer be IB/E branded? Were the (previous version) Rebel lenses designed by Schneider, but to be marketed by IB/E? Just curious about the relationship.
Mitch Gross
08-31-2009, 09:36 AM
The companies were always working together, IB/E on design, Schneider (and its subsidiary ISCO) on implementation. They will be sold as Schneider product.
Victor Papalucas
08-31-2009, 10:56 AM
They are using Schott glass or not ?
Mitch Gross
08-31-2009, 11:41 AM
Good question; I'll have to find out. All I know right now is that they're using German glass.
Roberto Lequeux
09-01-2009, 12:10 AM
Thanks for sharing what you know Mitch.
Mitch Gross
09-02-2009, 08:22 AM
I can confirm from IB/E that there is in fact Schott glass used in these lenses.
Victor Papalucas
09-02-2009, 02:26 PM
I can confirm from IB/E that there is in fact Schott glass used in these lenses.

Great !

Red Star primes don't cover 5K. Right ?

Mitch, Did You find out resolution power ?
Mitch Gross
09-02-2009, 08:05 PM
We need time to analyze these lenses in their latest version. When we have I will report. Right now we are all busy preparing for IBC so it will have to be after that for us to really test them properly.
Peter Repich
09-02-2009, 10:56 PM
According to the chart they weigh only slightly less than the RPPs or Uniques and still no 18mm. I personally feel any set without a 16mm or 18mm is incomplete.

Evin, UO lenses weigh less than the Schneider 50 mm, 85 mm and 100 mm. The production lenses are being assembled now and will actually weigh slightly less. Please understand that faster lenses (ours are T-1.9) have larger and heavier optics due to the larger aperature. But the longer focal lenghts are actually lighter due to the mechanical construction (50, 85 and 100 mm are shorter). Please visit our website at www.uniqoptics.com (http://www.uniwoptics.com)and compare the weight/lenght of all the new primes out there. Ours are mostly lighter but not by a whole lot. We have been overwhelmed with orders and are working very hard to deliver lens sets to those folks that ordered them.The 18 mm has been designed and will go to prototyping shortly (we are planning to ship them before the end of this year).Our focus gear width appears to be larger than that of the Schneider Optics primes but any similarity to our lenses must be purely coincidental.

Please visit our website at www.uniqoptics.com (http://www.uniqoptics.com)and click on our Signature Series prime lenses and read Digital Lenses* article, which explains the difference between the film and digital imaging and lenses. The article was written by a renown digital scientist. Our lenses are designed to work with digital sensors and film media. UO lenses are that of Fig. 7 design and the spectral range enhances digital images (430 to 667 nm).

Any question, you can contact me off line at peterr@uniqoptics.com. I can send you the article separately.



Peter Repich, VP UniQoptics LLC