One Final Request for 60fps @ 4K REDCODE RAW Onboard [Archive]

Tom Lowe

08-01-2007, 07:35 PM

Emanuel A.

08-01-2007, 07:38 PM

Oh dearest Tom! How could you dare?!! :)

Be welcome to the impossible team! ;-)

Jaime Vallés

08-01-2007, 07:57 PM

No harm in asking, right?

I would be ecstatic if even 48p was possible at 4K redcode. That's 50% slo-mo, silky smooth.

Neil Duffy

08-01-2007, 08:01 PM

48fps would be awesome. You could film in 48fps - and then move down to 24fps if you want. Some projectors project at 48fps (content filmed at 24 fps) to help soften the movements during a pan shot.

I Bloom

08-01-2007, 08:04 PM

It sounds like some serious final decisions are being made about framerates and formats right now, so I figured this will be the last chance to ask this questions directly before production begins.

Is there ANY way you guys can figure out a way to increase the onboard processor power so we can record 48 or 60fps 4K REDCODE RAW onboard?

I know that processor speed limitations have been cited by Jim and Graeme as the bottleneck for why we cannot overcrank onboard at 4K, but that was nearly a year ago, and processor power has skyrocketed since that time.

This is the last post I will make this issue until at least next year.... Don't ban me.

Always seemed so wierd to me that it stopped short at exactly 30. What about 31. 32. 33. :detective2: I'd be happy with 36. That's the sweetspot for a lot of my current work. NOX does 2K at 37 point something... where'd they get that number??

Based on this little observation I'll start a rumor. :whistling: I heard that they are just waiting until they are totally done with the compression tweaking before they announced the final numbers. :shifty:

Its going to be another one of those glorious days where we all write a post like "just when you thought things couldn't get better, now this." or "I won't be able to sleep now thanks Jim."

I'm excited about it. But if I know Jim, and of course I know him only from this forum, he likes to surprise with the positive rather than speculate and fall short. That's the strategy I see. It's working and I like it.

I offer as evidence of my rumor that no one from RED will chime in on this thread with any info. :wink:

IBloom

Emanuel A.

08-01-2007, 08:29 PM

No harm in asking, right?Are you (we) sure? LOL

Joe Carney

08-01-2007, 08:39 PM

I'm beginning to think we are just spinning our collective wheels in a deep patch of mud. The crucial questions to all this is RedCine and what will it take to transcode in faster then realtime. Or..will qt/recode quickly become ubiquitous and render the whole rgp option moot. Considering how well known Red is becomming even by those who don't know much about production, ubiquitous is a distinct possibility.

Antoine Baumann

08-02-2007, 12:33 AM

No harm in asking, right?

I would be ecstatic if even 48p was possible at 4K redcode. That's 50% slo-mo, silky smooth.

Asking is one of the most important thing in life. And yes 48fps would be fantastic.

RED team just went from 60fps to 96fps at 2K, so I think they are trying their very best to push the frame rate... at 4K certainly as well.

antoine.

Poi Boy

08-02-2007, 12:38 AM

Based on this little observation I'll start a rumor. :whistling: I heard that they are just waiting until they are totally done with the compression tweaking before they announced the final numbers. :shifty:

Its going to be another one of those glorious days where we all write a post like "just when you thought things couldn't get better, now this." or "I won't be able to sleep now thanks Jim."

I'm excited about it. But if I know Jim, and of course I know him only from this forum, he likes to surprise with the positive rather than speculate and fall short. That's the strategy I see. It's working and I like it.

I offer as evidence of my rumor that no one from RED will chime in on this thread with any info. :wink:

IBloom[/QUOTE]

I like your thinking here IBloom !
Aloha
-A

Sam Druckerman

08-02-2007, 01:32 AM

I know that processor speed limitations have been cited by Jim and Graeme as the bottleneck for why we cannot overcrank onboard at 4K, but that was nearly a year ago, and processor power has skyrocketed since that time.

This is the last post I will make this issue until at least next year.... Don't ban me. :)

LOL.... Tom, you've said what we've all been secretly wishing....

60 fps 4K redcode onboard would be the "Icing on the Red cake"!

And, no I won't be disappointed if doesn't happen "On the first rollout".... Or ever.... Well, maybe ....

But if our desires seem unreasonable, Jim only has himself to blame. Like spoiled children who've been giving the World... Now we've come to expect it....

Sorry Jim... (I kid.)

But if I know Jim, and of course I know him only from this forum, he likes to surprise with the positive rather than speculate and fall short. That's the strategy I see. It's working and I like it. IBloom

That's pretty much how I see it too.

Our man Jim, has to be... okay, probably ahhhh, hopefully saving a special detail or two for when the camera's start to roll....

But, for the record.... I'm really thrilled with the way things are shaping up. ( I don't want to be banished either )

Emanuel A.

08-02-2007, 03:01 AM

I like your thinking here IBloom !
Aloha
-AAnd I second you, Poi.

Aloha to both,
E.

Tom Lowe

08-02-2007, 06:55 PM

bump, bump

Thom Steinhoff

08-02-2007, 08:09 PM

Always seemed so wierd to me that it stopped short at exactly 30. What about 31. 32. 33. :detective2: I'd be happy with 36.

Me Three. 60 would be amazing but 36 would be sweeeet.

Tonaci Tran

08-02-2007, 08:27 PM

I wish for the same as well, but I think that improving the parts/boards will mean higher price unfortunately.

albert rudnicki

08-02-2007, 08:35 PM

Too
Too

Tom Lowe

08-02-2007, 08:36 PM

36, 48, 60.......?

Thom Steinhoff

08-02-2007, 08:50 PM

60, 90, 120... The next few years are going to be amazing. Looking back we'll call them "The Red Years"

Gregory Leno

08-02-2007, 09:00 PM

... 36 would be sweeeet.

I'm curious. What does 36 give you over other frame rates? is it just a smoother look or ?

~ G

Thom Steinhoff

08-02-2007, 09:07 PM

I'm curious. What does 36 give you over other frame rates? is it just a smoother look or ?

~ G

Smoother, semi dreamy look. Better than 30 played back at 24, 1 1/2 times speed, and a good step on the way to 48 , 72, 96. it would just be sweet to push it past 30.

Shawn Nelson

08-02-2007, 09:08 PM

Okay, so Jim says the bottle neck is the ability to transcode into Redcode Raw. Well why not just skip that? If you started with an empty RedCode drive, you could put it into "Overcrank Mode" with a clip limit of like 5 min. It would fill the drive up in those 5 min, but then after that take you could tell it to "Transcode" and it would then take a few minutes to gobble it down to Redcode, or you offload the whole thing into RedCine and have it compress it down.

Shawn Nelson

08-02-2007, 09:10 PM

I'm curious. What does 36 give you over other frame rates? is it just a smoother look or ?

~ G

It's strictly for slo-motion work. Take a normal 24p or 60i clip, take it into Final Cut Pro and do a 50% speed. It will look, bleh. Now if you instead shoot it at 36fps you can then slow it down to 24fps and have the clip last 50% longer but with a still 1-1 frame ratio, it looks that much better. For an extreme example, rent 300. They shot many of those battle scenes at speeds of 150fps or more.

Thom Steinhoff

08-02-2007, 09:12 PM

Shawn, Exactly! but I don't think a Red Drive alone is fast enough to store the Raw-- you need a bit of a refrigerator raid--but not as big as currently thought.

Your idea is very similar to something I have brought up a few times that could give us 4K @ 60fps...

..Using Red Raid: Red Raid should work like a tempoary cache. It should be a computer in it's own right and connect directly to the Raw port. You basically shoot in 60fps RAW to the raid, then when you stop, a computer in the Red Raid spools it to your Red drive in RedCode Raw (which would attach directly to the Red Raid when shooting high speed)

The Raid could take it's time but Once the Raw shot has been converted to RedCode and stored safely on the drive, the Raid would clear to make room for the next shot.

This way, you don't need endless drive storage--you just need enough for 30 seconds? 1 Minute? 2 Minutes? 5 Minutes? It just needs to be fast enough to handle Raw recording then smart enough to convert it to RedCode Raw and copy it to your drive when its done.

Once triggered, the recording should go in a loop so if you are waiting for a stunt it is the end point that determines the recording--not the starting point. So, if you have only 30 seconds of cache available, you trigger and even if it is crunching away for 5 minutes, after the amazing stunt you hit stop and the last 30 seconds would be converted and spooled to the Red Drive.

As for naming, I think it could be called Red Raw Cache, or Red Rocket pack...

Tom Lowe

08-02-2007, 09:18 PM

Shawn, there have been many suggestions for being able to shoot 48-60fps 4K footage onto anything onboard. We are still awaiting word on what Jim and them are working on, in terms of 4K overcrankage.

Gregory Leno

08-02-2007, 09:21 PM

It's strictly for slo-motion work. Take a normal 24p or 60i clip, take it into Final Cut Pro and do a 50% speed. It will look, bleh. Now if you instead shoot it at 36fps you can then slow it down to 24fps and have the clip last 50% longer but with a still 1-1 frame ratio, it looks that much better. For an extreme example, rent 300. They shot many of those battle scenes at speeds of 150fps or more.

Yeah I understand that. I just haven't seen 36 fps and didn't know if there were any other advantages. Thanks

~ G

Jannard

08-02-2007, 09:50 PM

Shawn Nelson

08-02-2007, 09:53 PM

Can it do my laundry and bring me beer too? *pleeeeze*?

Failing at these two critical features (and when I say "beer", I mean Guinness) then the rest of this conversation is just us shooting the breeze discussing ideas Jim, no need to get defensive of your baby :-). My comments were more for a Red 2 than anything else at this point. In fact, I don't want any new features, just give me the camera!

Tom Lowe

08-02-2007, 09:58 PM

Make a mental list of all the things this camera does that no other camera can do. Let's see... 4K recording at 24fps to Compact Flash in a camera that weighs 9 pounds and costs $17,500.

What was it you asked for?

Jim

Jim, I love you and worship you, sir, but do not underestimate how much we want to overcrank.

tom

Ace

08-02-2007, 10:43 PM

If people are paying more for extra lenses, batteries, whatever it is (sometimes totalling more than the cost of the body itself) Perhaps an upgrade module be made available for 5k or 10k or whatever it is for the Processorthingymebob that allows higher over-crank (150fps?). I know this may not be how red does business, but I think we all know by now how far this camera has gone within the constraints of the price tag. Perhaps other modules be made available for other specialised features. Upgradability for added capability. Perhaps there may never be a RED2 if this is the case.

I Bloom

08-02-2007, 11:37 PM

I'm curious. What does 36 give you over other frame rates? is it just a smoother look or ?

~ G

Well 36 is just fast enough to really feel different. But just slow enough that the audience doesn't automatically recognize it as slow motion. (This is in terms of 24 fps playback). So it adds a dreamlike quality. Check out "The Last Temptation of Christ", they use these mild overcranks mixed with ambient sound and foley, to make Willem Defoe appear like the most graceful walker on the earth.

I particularly like to handhold the camera and walk over the shoulder of an actor at this framerate.

IBloom

Blair S. Paulsen

08-02-2007, 11:43 PM

I think the idea of a high speed version of the Red is an interesting one. Special purpose FPGA, 6 platter RedDrive RAID and whatever other tweaks would be required. It would be a bit heavier and more expensive...

Ah shucks, just rent a Phantom :tongue:

C.H.Haskell

08-02-2007, 11:50 PM

I know...it does seem nuts to keep asking from a company who has given so much already, but Jim you set yourself up for this...4k overcranking is what people will start (and already have) knocking on your door for, perhaps system updates and hardware updates will make it happen down the road. ;)

Thom Steinhoff

08-02-2007, 11:56 PM

Jim,

What you are witnessing is of your own creation: By giving us what we previously thought was impossible at a price we couldn't dream of, you have taught us to dream beyond perceived limits, and put no limits on our imagination.

I agree with Sean--we're just shooting the breeze, imagining what miracles you will perform next year while anxiously counting the minutes before your creation is in our hot little hands (not that the heating issue hasn't been solved :) ).

Poi Boy

08-03-2007, 12:33 AM

For now i would be really, really, REALLY !!! happy to get my red that has record at 4k raw 24p, audio and timecode. Please don't delay over all the other stuff.
Aloha
-A

Jesper Holmström

08-03-2007, 03:15 AM

Michael Lindsay

08-03-2007, 03:40 AM

I think that would be a great idea... and I would pay half the price of the red camera again for it.....

They've got my card details:wink:

regards

Michael Lindsay

PS I also 2nd the notion that it would be amazing to just have a simple 24/25fps to CF camera in my hands without all the other reat stuff

Jack Wester

08-03-2007, 05:39 AM

Why not build a little framebuffer box that can hold 1-2 minutes worth of 4K@60fps and spit out whatever the camera can handle in the other end. You can mount the box in the same place as the optical port. The 4K UC signal is present there and the only thing needed is to find a path back to the processor. Of course you can then only record to RED ram or RED drive and after shooting 1-2 minutes you would have to wait 1-2 minutes to let the camera process and write to disc.
I think such device/option would be worth a lot and also not hold up the camera development so much.

Jesper Holmström
Dagsljus Filmequipment
The best post in weeks!

There would be many candidates where to host 8 GB of RAM. This would mean that a few thousand dollar addon would give Tom his 60 fps without any advanced engineering GIVEN that there is a subsystem suited to handle the i/o and to manage the RAM or, alternatively, that the CPU can address it directly using its memory bus (less likely).

As you would only need as much RAM as needed for the largest overcranked sequence without any interuption, given that the camera is allowed to catch breath between shoots you can film as much overcranked footage as you like in RedCode until you've consumed your 64 GB or 320 GB. DSLRs use framebuffers when they shoot 10 fps in the same way.

Thom Steinhoff

08-03-2007, 06:59 AM

Red ram is 64 gig. If it were fast enough to handle raw that would give us over 3 minutes of temporary storage. Jarred hinted at one point that red ram has faster datarates but no one has said anything more.

If redram did this then the redcode raw could be spooled to the red disk or cf.

This should also work as a circular buffer so if I am interested in only 20 seconds of slowmo I can hit start and it only saves the last 20 seconds before I hit end even if that goes on for 10 minutes.

Let's hope it is fast enough to allow this in the future but for now--4k 24p in the hand is worth its weight in gold.

Jeff Kilgroe

08-03-2007, 07:15 AM

Red ram is 64 gig. If it were fast enough to handle raw that would give us over 3 minutes of temporary storage. Jarred hinted at one point that red ram has faster datarates but no one has said anything more.

RED RAM might be 96GB now as that has been hinted at. :) As for speed, it should be faster than RED DRIVE or CF just because of what it is (multiple SSD units), but it still comes in the form of a RED DRIVE and connects the same way. Because it attaches via eSATA, it's only about 1/3 as fast as needed to capture the full uncompressed RAW data from the camera. And an interface to the camera internals for uncompressed RAW must also be provided, which means the RAW port or something else factory installed that provides an interface to attach some form of storage, even if it's a RAM buffer that allows for just a few seconds of recording at the full rate.

Thom Steinhoff

08-03-2007, 07:43 AM

That's what I was afraid of.

Hell, even. 4 gig buffer would give us 12 seconds real time or 8 would give us 24.

24 seconds of real time gives us 60 seconds of 60 fps slow motion played back at 24 fps.

In a circular buffer this would be plenty for me.

Jeff Kilgroe

08-03-2007, 08:02 AM

That's what I was afraid of.

Hell, even. 4 gig buffer would give us 12 seconds real time or 8 would give us 24.

The full 60fps @ 4K is about 900MB/s uncompressed... So 4GB would give you just a bit over 4 seconds of record time, not 12 seconds.

Curran Giddens

08-03-2007, 08:05 AM

I was always hoping that the RED-RAM was actually just that, RAM. Then, if the RED-RAM had an optical port to record 4.5k@60p from the RAW port option, that would be sweet!

How about some news on the RED-RAID?

Then RED could just say, "If you want 4.5k@60p, or 2k@120p, just order the RAW port option, and ... Introducing RED-RAID...."

Jeff Kilgroe

08-03-2007, 08:11 AM

Then RED could just say, "If you want 4.5k@60p, or 2k@120p, just order the RAW port option, and ... Introducing RED-RAID...."

I think that's what's going to happen... But they will ship cameras first. I'm also guessing that the RAW port option won't be available when they first start shipping and it will still be a few months down the road -- probably closer to the end of the year after all the camera features are completed.

Thom Steinhoff

08-03-2007, 08:31 AM

The full 60fps @ 4K is about 900MB/s uncompressed... So 4GB would give you just a bit over 4 seconds of record time, not 12 seconds.

Oops! you're right--I forgot to factor in the FPS. So, with internal memory--I think we're screwed. Likely whatever board they are using could only take 2 DIMMS or 4 Gig Max and they are likely already being used for drive buffers and normal operations. Even if it could take 4 that's only 8 gig--what is that--9 seconds? Big tower boards can take 8 dimms or 16 gig but no way they are using that.

Granted with a circular buffer and a "count from the stop not from the start" philosophy the last nine seconds I shot at 60fps 4K or 120fps 2K would be pretty sweet, but I'm not sure it's enough to satisfy everyone.

Jack Wester

08-03-2007, 11:15 AM

The full 60fps @ 4K is about 900MB/s uncompressed... So 4GB would give you just a bit over 4 seconds of record time, not 12 seconds.
The buffer would only need to compensate for the lagging behind of the RedCone encoding. As the CPU will also need to deal with some processing to handle the raw frames we could assume that 1 second would require 30-40 frames to be kept in RAM as, in the same second, 20-30 frames would be moved from the buffer to normal RedCode storage.

Jeff Kilgroe

08-03-2007, 11:49 AM

Oops! you're right--I forgot to factor in the FPS. So, with internal memory--I think we're screwed. Likely whatever board they are using could only take 2 DIMMS or 4 Gig Max and they are likely already being used for drive buffers and normal operations.

It's all proprietary boards and hardware, who knows what the specs are for the internal memory system and how much memory is actually inside a RED One. There could realistically be 4 or 8 GB or more RAM inside there... They don't have to use traditionally DIMM socketed RAM, but could have the RAM chips directly in-line. I doubt much of anything internal is connected in some form of standard socket or slot.

Granted with a circular buffer and a "count from the stop not from the start" philosophy the last nine seconds I shot at 60fps 4K or 120fps 2K would be pretty sweet, but I'm not sure it's enough to satisfy everyone.

The problem with a circular or first-in/first-out (FIFO) buffer is that there would need to be adequate storage to offer realistic record times. If we assume that the camera handles 30fps at 4K in real-time, then 60fps should take double that. With that in consideration, A 32GB buffer could realistically allow for about 66 seconds of onboard 4K at 60fps. Then it would require about 33 seconds of down-time to completely flush the buffer and encode to onboard media. If recording is started again before the buffer is completely flushed, then record time will be less than that full 66 seconds, obviously.

This restriction of having to shoot in short bursts would be very problematic in many situations. I think it would make a lot more sense to just be tethered to a large RAID or external processing system.

Aside from those with very specific need for uncompressed RAW @ 60fps and the budget to make it work, I don't see 4K @ 60fps happening right away. I think it will be a standard feature to have 4K @ 60fps REDCODE on-board with the next revision / upgrade to the camera and its internal processors. Of course, then everyone will be having this exact same discussion, but we'll all be wanting 4K @ 200fps or 6K @ 60fps or whatnot. It doesn't end. :)