Thoughts on VECTORSCOPES

[Tim Whitcomb]

Hi-

We are looking at some low cost alternatives to Vectorscopes
and remember seeing a thread on here... but cant find it in search.

For our high end suite, we use the inimitable Omnitek XR for 4:4:4

however we want a low cost solution for Indie Filmmakers 4:2:2
Thoughts? what are people using?

links? thanks in advance.

[Stacey Spears]

There is the Blackmagic Ultrascope. I am setting one up this weekend to test out.

[Simon Blackledge]

Tim
I setup Blackmagic Ultrascopes last week. They are fantastic considering the silly price they are.

Had no issues at all. All realtime feedback.

No QC logging or 4:4:4 yet...

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/ultrascope/

si

[Mark L. Pederson]

Hi-

We are looking at some low cost alternatives to Vectorscopes
and remember seeing a thread on here... but cant find it in search.

For our high end suite, we use the inimitable Omnitek XR for 4:4:4

however we want a low cost solution for Indie Filmmakers 4:2:2
Thoughts? what are people using?

links? thanks in advance.

Omnitek XR in our theatre - and we run our other suite with a Leader 7700 Rasterizer

http://www.leaderusa.com/web/products/rasterizer/lv7700.htm

[Mark L. Pederson]

Tim
I setup Blackmagic Ultrascopes last week. They are fantastic considering the silly price they are.

Had no issues at all. All realtime feedback.

No QC logging or 4:4:4 yet...

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/ultrascope/

si

Simon have you looked at the waveforms on the BM against another scope? I'm curious what the reality is with respect to accuracy on the UltraScope. Sure the price is crazy cheap - but are the accurate? Anyone know of a published test/comparison ?

[Matt Gottshalk]

I have the Leader LV 5750.

It is excellent.

[M Most]

Simon have you looked at the waveforms on the BM against another scope? I'm curious what the reality is with respect to accuracy on the UltraScope. Sure the price is crazy cheap - but are the accurate? Anyone know of a published test/comparison ?

My guess is that the difference won't be in accuracy, but rather in performance - in other words, latency, and some flexibility and features such as gamut alarms, 444 to 422 conversions, and the like. It also doesn't have dual link capability (although it does support 3Gb single link).

Then again, this being RedUser, it's certainly not unheard of for a company to come out with a product that gives you 90% or more of what a much more expensive product does at a disruptive price.

[Simon Blackledge]

Simon have you looked at the waveforms on the BM against another scope? I'm curious what the reality is with respect to accuracy on the UltraScope. Sure the price is crazy cheap - but are the accurate? Anyone know of a published test/comparison ?

I have not Mark but I will try and get some in soon to test from the rental chaps here. Though I'm pretty sure they are on.

There is zero lag from what i can tell.

Their out of gammut is only on red on screen alert currently as it shows withot clipping and goes red. Sure a beep could be possible.

Out of interest when you pump a 4:4:4 to the XR and flip ya output to 4:2:2 how much movement do you see in the scopes?

I see no reason why 4:4:4 could not be possible ober the 3Gb connection.

s

[Stacey Spears]

I hope to compare the Ultrascope with a Tek WFM700 this weekend.

[Dave Blackham]

Id be interested to know what software options exisit if any. Seems to me any external device is measuring the output card on the host computor this may or may not be the data in the media file.

I can offer this suggestion for audio metering which is excellent.

http://www.rawmaterialsoftware.com/ppm.php

[Johan Lindgren]

If your daddy is paying, go for the Tek WFM7120. I´m using one tomorrow and i know I´ll have a blast.

Johan

[Greg M]

Remember that even though the Blackmagic is cheap, its just a card. You still need a PC to host it.

You can also try somthing like this if you are looking for a cheaper solution:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120404347368&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT

and just add a downconverter...same results.

[Tim Whitcomb]

If your daddy is paying, go for the Tek WFM7120. I´m using one tomorrow and i know I´ll have a blast.

Johan

Well since Im a grandfather. I guess that means I will be paying... and for that price... I'd just opt for a 2nd Omnitek XR, its killer.

Mark P and the rest, thanks so much for these low cost options...

again this is for 4:2:2 grading... we already have the Omnitek XR in our DI theater for high end work...

Ill check these out... thanks again

[Tim Whitcomb]

Remember that even though the Blackmagic is cheap, its just a card. You still need a PC to host it.

You can also try somthing like this if you are looking for a cheaper solution:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120404347368&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT

and just add a downconverter...same results.

Thanks, old school hardware is kind of a cool thought and could look sick in the room.
What would you recommend for downconverter?

Mark P. that Leader is sweet, but Im trying to create a super affordable RR grading suite for Indies to rent out here in Portland, OR.

EDITED 9/02/09
1. Mac Pro 2.93 8 Core w/16Gb DDR 3 RAM 1TB HD - $7K
a. MAXX DIGITAL EVO 2K 8TB RAID system - $4K
b.ATI 4870 1Gb Graphic Card.
2. RED Rocket™ Card - w/Breakout Box Box - $6K
3. FCP 3, ADOBE CS4 - and numerous FCP Plug Ins - $8K
4. (2) HP 24" WIDESCREEN HD 1080P BIN Monitors - $1K
5. Panasonic THK-11 Series PRO PLASMA Grading Monitor -$2K
6. Euphonix MC Controller, MC Color, MC Mix Console $4K
7. Genelec 5.1 Surround Sound Speaker System $3K
8. Pro Tools, Logic Pro, Plug Ins $2K
9. Vectorscope Waveform Monitor TBD
10. Does not include Cabling, Soundproofing Suite, Set Up Etc.

Thanks again for great suggestions.

Ill post a pic of the suite when its fully installed.

[M Most]

Mark P. that Leader is sweet, but Im trying to create a super affordable RR grading suite for Indies to rent out here in Portland, OR.

If you're really serious about the "super affordable" part, here are some suggestions:

1. For the moment, forget about the Rocket card. It currently doesn't work with any third party apps, and there's no way of predicting when it will. There's also no way of knowing exactly what it will do in concert with those apps when it does. Right now, you can do everything the card allows you to do, you just have to do it slower. But when you're editing or finishing, this is "offline" time. At this point in time, Red is not giving you enough information to determine exactly what the card will do and when, and design systems around that. I know the "Red supporter" part of your brain is saying "I trust them, if they say it's going to do all this stuff and work with everything, I believe them". But the businessman part of your brain should take over at that point, and say "Great - let me know when it does." If you want to add the card at some point in the future when it fulfills its promise, you can. But at this point, save yourself the $5000.

2. It's a very questionable idea to have two reference color monitors. You're saying you want to use a Dreamcolor (I would question that) AND a Sony consumer LCD. I would suggest that you drop both and replace them with a Panasonic Pro Plasma, saving yourself at least $2000 in the process. It is very unlikely that your clientele are going to require film output, so HD deliverables are your primary target. The plasma will provide a bigger canvas (50 inches, if you choose that model), better accuracy for Rec709 work (especially in the blacks, assuming you have it calibrated properly), and a wider viewing angle for those in the room who aren't sitting in the colorist's chair.

3. Unless you're setting this up specifically as a music room, I would consider using ProTools rather than Digital Performer. It's much better for general sound editorial, and better when it comes to final mixing - unless, of course, you're planning to use something like Soundtrack Pro for that.

[Mark L. Pederson]

7. JBL 5.1 Surround Sound Speaker System $4K
Thanks again for great suggestions.

Ill post a pic of the suite when its fully installed.

If your room is under 250 sq ft or so - you can save $1K and go with:

8020LSE-ESPRESSO Genelec 8020LSE Espresso - 5.1 System. (5) 8020A's and (1) 7050B Sub
Woofer. Black Finish

I paid $3K at TEKSERVE (http://www.tekserve.com/business/proservices.php) - they kick ass in a small room.

For sound insulation - we went with Quiet Rock (not cheap) on both sides of walls and spray soy-based insulation.

http://www.quietsolution.com/html/quietrock.html

Acoustic panels by PNC West - http://www.pncwest.com/

[Tim Whitcomb]

If your room is under 250 sq ft or so - you can save $1K and go with:

8020LSE-ESPRESSO Genelec 8020LSE Espresso - 5.1 System. (5) 8020A's and (1) 7050B Sub
Woofer. Black Finish

I paid $3K at TEKSERVE (http://www.tekserve.com/business/proservices.php) - they kick ass in a small room.

For sound insulation - we went with Quiet Rock (not cheap) on both sides of walls and spray soy-based insulation.

http://www.quietsolution.com/html/quietrock.html

Acoustic panels by PNC West - http://www.pncwest.com/

Thanks for sharing Mark. These sound perfect for our 3 Upstairs future RR Suites. Based on success of first suite, which is actually,
24 x 14 with a "cockpit" lowered ceiling cove, these should work as well as the mixing space is contained.

FYI: We used Double Wall Construction and built a "room within a room" and used double 5/8" Drywall with GreenGlue (http://www.greengluecompany.com/?gclid=CI--wNyNypwCFShRagod9CbgJg) Viscoelatic dampening compound that converts sound waves to heat energy.

A bit less than Quiet Rock with similar STC rating . ideal would be to use both above and Quiet Rock, but our budget was limited.

Then for sound control, we used an Aurelex Roominato (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RoomDelPlus/)r package from Sweetwater

Ill post pics soon, we are literally getting new gear via fedex everyday.

But Genelec again sound perfect for this suite as well as our smaller 12 x 12 upstairs RR suites. Thanks so much for links!
EVERY DOLLAR COUNTS

[Tim Whitcomb]

If you're really serious about the "super affordable" part, here are some suggestions:

1. For the moment, forget about the Rocket card. It currently doesn't work with any third party apps, and there's no way of predicting when it will. There's also no way of knowing exactly what it will do in concert with those apps when it does. Right now, you can do everything the card allows you to do, you just have to do it slower. But when you're editing or finishing, this is "offline" time. At this point in time, Red is not giving you enough information to determine exactly what the card will do and when, and design systems around that. I know the "Red supporter" part of your brain is saying "I trust them, if they say it's going to do all this stuff and work with everything, I believe them". But the businessman part of your brain should take over at that point, and say "Great - let me know when it does." If you want to add the card at some point in the future when it fulfills its promise, you can. But at this point, save yourself the $5000.

2. It's a very questionable idea to have two reference color monitors. You're saying you want to use a Dreamcolor (I would question that) AND a Sony consumer LCD. I would suggest that you drop both and replace them with a Panasonic Pro Plasma, saving yourself at least $2000 in the process. It is very unlikely that your clientele are going to require film output, so HD deliverables are your primary target. The plasma will provide a bigger canvas (50 inches, if you choose that model), better accuracy for Rec709 work (especially in the blacks, assuming you have it calibrated properly), and a wider viewing angle for those in the room who aren't sitting in the colorist's chair.

3. Unless you're setting this up specifically as a music room, I would consider using ProTools rather than Digital Performer. It's much better for general sound editorial, and better when it comes to final mixing - unless, of course, you're planning to use something like Soundtrack Pro for that.

Thanks so much for the feedback Mike.

1. We already bought it :) We are patient, and wont be finished with the rest of our facility for a couple months... trying to be on the cutting edge.

2. We would love to use the Panny 11 series, but isnt it $4995K with DUAL LINK HD-SDI? Can you use HDMI for 4:2:2 ? FYI- Dreamcolor is down to $1500 and we have had no issues with it for our work. Which is mostly HD 4:2:2 for TV or DVD

3. Yeah, we have Pro Tools and LOGIC Pro in our DI Theater as well. What hardware do you suggest at this budget level? We love MOTU mainly for cost and work with Soundtrack Pro (which is kinda weak)

I also forgot we are looking at JL Cooper Control Surfaces versus tangent.
The CP-200 are great, im not a fan of TANGENT CURVE's ehe hem. "little balls" :001_rolleyes:

thanks again all for feedback,much appreciated. We cant be everything to everyone, so our thought is each suite will "evolve" over time based on our market needs.

[M Most]

We would love to use the Panny 11 series, but isnt it $4995K with DUAL LINK HD-SDI? Can you use HDMI for 4:2:2 ? FYI- Dreamcolor is down to $1500 and we have had no issues with it for our work. Which is mostly HD 4:2:2 for TV or DVD

I'm not a fan of LCD's in general for color work, at least not in a proper color correction environment (i.e., very dim ambient lighting). And that includes the Dreamcolor.

Feeding the plasma via HDMI is fine, especially for the type of work you're talking about, provided you can monitor the same feed via external scopes. You can use a dual link to HDMI converter for this.


Yeah, we have Pro Tools and LOGIC Pro in our DI Theater as well. What hardware do you suggest at this budget level?

You might want to look at Euphonix' controllers, in particular the MC Control, the MC Mix, and possibly the MC Color when it's available. The panels match each other well, and provide a nice - and compact - way of multi-purposing the room for editorial, color, and post sound work, which is what it sounds like you want to do.

[Mark L. Pederson]

You might want to look at Euphonix' controllers, in particular the MC Control, the MC Mix, and possibly the MC Color when it's available. The panels match each other well, and provide a nice - and compact - way of multi-purposing the room for editorial, color, and post sound work, which is what it sounds like you want to do.

Euphonix would be a wise choice. MC Color is gonna be THE deal.

[Tim Whitcomb]

Thanks again guys for all the great suggestions...

EDIT: Any idea what/when FALL 2009 means?

Euphonix are lot more affordable than JL Cooper, although the latter isn't bad compared to Tangent CP-200
series. I just hadn't heard from anyone actually used/demo'd their stuff, so wasnt sure of quality. Thanks again

[M Most]

Euphonix are lot more affordable than JL Cooper, although the latter isn't bad compared to Tangent CP-200
series. I just hadn't heard from anyone actually used/demo'd their stuff, so wasnt sure of quality. Thanks again

Euphonix sound mixing controller boards are among the most popular in the industry, used in many of the best facilities in the country. They have made it a point to be very hardware and software agnostic, so they work equally well with ProTools, Nuendo, and many editing software packages. The MC Control is basically one, slightly cut-down module from the sound boards, and is a well proven and very well supported device. Unlike many other manufacturers, Euphonix concentrated on developing controllers for other systems, not the systems themselves, and it's paid off. I don't expect that these desktop products will be any less reliable.

[Dave Blackham]

2. It's a very questionable idea to have two reference color monitors. You're saying you want to use a Dreamcolor (I would question that) AND a Sony consumer LCD. I would suggest that you drop both and replace them with a Panasonic Pro Plasma, saving yourself at least $2000 in the process. It is very unlikely that your clientele are going to require film output, so HD deliverables are your primary target. The plasma will provide a bigger canvas (50 inches, if you choose that model), better accuracy for Rec709 work (especially in the blacks, assuming you have it calibrated properly), and a wider viewing angle for those in the room who aren't sitting in the colorist's chair.

Mke,

Is this the monitor to which you refer. Panasonic TH-50PH10UKA

thanks,

Dave

[M Most]

Mke,

Is this the monitor to which you refer. Panasonic TH-50PH10UKA


No. You likely want the TH-50PF11UK. The PK series is the lower resolution plasma panel (it's 1366x768, approxmately 720p resolution), the PF series is full 1920x1080. The "11" indicates pro model series 11.

[Dave Blackham]

No. You likely want the TH-50PF11UK. The PK series is the lower resolution plasma panel (it's 1366x768, approxmately 720p resolution), the PF series is full 1920x1080. The "11" indicates pro model series 11.

For the price this looks very good. I must fine a store with them to check it out. Are you aware of any drawbacks with it in a professional environment ?

Thanks for pointing us at it.

[Tim Whitcomb]

For the price this looks very good. I must fine a store with them to check it out. Are you aware of any drawbacks with it in a professional environment ?

Thanks for pointing us at it.

Hi Dave, there is an excellent discussion on these monitors here

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=29386

[Dave Blackham]

Hi Dave, there is an excellent discussion on these monitors here

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=29386

Thanks Tim, its a really good thread.

[Robert Horwell]

What about this tim?

HARRIS VIDEOTEK VTM-2000 MULTIFORMAT ON-SCREEN MONITOR


The Videotek© VTM-2000 multiformat on-screen monitor continues the Videotek tradition of cost-effective monitoring of SD-SDI and analog composite signals. Based on the technology developed for the VTM Series,T the VTM-2000 is an easy-to-operate tool to monitor and measure SD-SDI (525 and 625) and analog composite (NTSC and PAL) signals on any XGA-capable monitor. The output display includes video picture, waveform, vector and alarm status or optional audio. The display can be configured to enable the viewing of each element in one quadrant of the screen or any element in a full-screen view.

The VTM-2000 also optionally accepts four AES/EBU stereo pairs, four mono or two stereo analog inputs and embedded audio from the SDI inputs. Audio can be displayed as two- or four-channel bar graph meters with a phase bar and Lissajous readout for each meter pair.

Alarms include RGB gamut, loss of video and EDH for SDI; loss of signal (sync or carrier) for composite and SDI; peak video and SC/H phase for composite; and peak audio and loss of sound for audio. Four presets store user setups for convenience.

[Jay A. Kelley]

In the RED101 DVD there is a module on the LEADER LV7330 which is a fantastic solution for scopes.. Works in the field, and in your edit suite.

Check it out.

Jay
www.red101dvd.com/order

[paul engstrom]

Will the Euphonix MC Color work with Speedgrade XR?

thx

[wenkoff]

I wondering if anyone can tell me what the ball park cost of the omnitek xr is?

cheers

[Tim Whitcomb]

I wondering if anyone can tell me what the ball park cost of the omnitek xr is?

cheers

18,000 - 20,000 not cheap, but a must for 4:4:4 and Film out work imho