Understanding the 2K vs HD Issue

[Stephen Webb]

OK, so Jim has suggested that he’d like to drop the HD resolutions (1080p and 720p) for recording in camera, and instead increase the framerate of 2K to 100fps (or at least 96fps). This has triggered off a lot of heated debate which has spread itself over a number of threads (and yes, I’m adding another one) which, as I’ve read through them, seem to have disparate ideas about what is possible and what is best.

My own preference is to do as Jim has said, drop the HD options and have 2K at 100 fps instead. This is still significantly faster than most other HD cameras and at a higher resolution. However, I have to admit that my focus is on filmmaking and that those with more of an ENG/EFP approach (or who have multiple approaches, Mr Gibby) have different needs. Given that this camera has always been intended for use in different areas of the industry, those needs have to be taken into account.

However there seems to be a lot of confusion over what Jim has proposed and how it will effect the options, and what in fact those options really were in the first place. I’m going to attempt to list here what the issues are and what I think the facts are to try to give a better overview of what Jim’s proposal actually means. If I’m wrong on any given point than I’d ask those with better information (particularly those on the Red Team) to correct me & I’ll update this list.

[Stephen Webb]

720p @ 120fps.
This is only available as a windowed option, not as a scaled option. You can’t use the full sensor area and have the 120fps rate. The maximum framerate of the full sensor is 60fps.

720p/1080p @ 60fps.
This IS possible from the full sensor area and under current specs can be recorded using Redcode to onboard media. As there is no longer a 1080i option, shooting 1080p60 and interlacing in post is the only way to get 1080i @ 60Hz whilst utilising the full sensor area (though it can be done in windowed mode from 2K @ 60fps). This is also the onlt way to get 35mm DOF at 31-60fps WITHOUT using the RAW port.

2K @ 96/100fps
Jim’s unsure on whether 100fps is possible yet, but 96 certainly is. To enable this would eliminate the ability to shoot in 720 or 1080 HD formats. It is only possible from the windowed portion of the sensor, not as a scaled option.

B4 Lenses
There is a need amongst some reservation holders to use B4 mount lenses. Jarred has done some early tests using the Abakas adaptor and a Fuji HD Zoom, the results of which suggest that B4 lenses will cover the 2K portion of the sensor. However tests have not been extensive and there is a query over whether the quality takes a hit – more testing is needed to determine this.

Transcoding
Some shooters need the option to deliver their footage direct to the client. In order for this to happen, one of two things will need to be in place:
The client must have an NLE that can use the Redcode codec. If they have then it shouldn’t matter whether the files are HD Redcode RGB or 2K/4K Redcode RAW.
You will need a system in place to convert your footage to a format the client can accept (Uncompressed HD, HDCAM, DVCProHD etc.) We don’t have any data on how long this will take yet, but as FCP can extract 4K RAW to 2K RGB on the fly (given a powerful enough spec) it’s reasonable to assume that there will be no significant advantage to having HD RGB rather than 2K RAW to start with.


Compromises
Gibby has suggested that it may be possible to drop only 720p and not 1080p and still have the higher framerate 2K option. Another option may be for shooters to choose via a firmware upgrade whether they want 720/1080 HD or 2K at the higher framerate. No-one from Red has commented on either of these yet so they remain speculative.

STOP PRESS

The transcoding and B4 issues would seem to have been settled and are not a problem.

Jim has updated with a further proposal:


4K and 2K only.
2K Windowed would be capable of 100fps.
2K Scaled would be capable of 60fps.

This would seem to eliminate the need for 1080p scaled, leaving the only issue the one of 720p @ 120fps.

Have I missed anything out?

[Emanuel A.]

Maybe 2K@50 fps (including the @48 fps option if not possible @72fps or @60 fps) scaled ?

Yes, scaled (I'm saying the forbidden word :)) might satisfy a great majority of 2/3 here asking this since the first minute, higher frame option issue aside.

[Emanuel A.]

There are a lot of advantages on the scaled route. I'm not spanking, sorry, I wanted to mean :) speaking only for myself. I bought this lens here [LINK (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150124546590&ssPageName=STRK:MEAFB:IT)] but I'm asking how many have budget in any way other than as their own guerila kit (35mm) -- here's just an example of another our fellow who has sold his 16mm gear only in order to go to the 35mm route [LINK (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150142863681&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005)].

IMHO, it's pointless the 4K/2K vs. HD argument. Unless, Mr. Jannard would wish lose the 1/3" and 2/3" crowd that MADE RED. As actually Steve (Mr. Gibby) already explained very very well!

35mm vs. S16 is where we must focus our attention. The first doesn't exclude the HD formats. The 2nd one excludes the 35mm standard. I'm afraid it's not necessary to argue more on subject.

[roryhinds]

Hey Stephen

Thanks for the recap, these days its tough work trawling through the endless posts of speculation and guess work.

I'm really looking forward to the day RED release the spec and we all know where we stand with how the camera works and what it can do.

My opinion is RED is a Cinema camera and there are plenty of ENG style cameras on the market to choose from if you need a lower resolution.

Regards
Rory

[Emanuel A.]

Apart your point :devil:, nice web site design yours, Rory.

[Brice Ansel]

My opinion is RED is a Cinema camera and there are plenty of ENG style cameras on the market to choose from if you need a lower resolution.
Regards
Rory
Then why did the red compagnie choose the dvxuser community to communicate thirst, their is plenty of eng folks there?
My opinion is red is a bit more than a cinema camera.
Brice

[roryhinds]

thanks Emanuel

Brice there are a large number of users using 35mm adaptors with DVX/HVX (myself included) and with Jarred's connection to RED, DVXuser was the place to talk.

IMHO ENG style shooting doesn't require 35mm DOF and in most cases would get in the way of getting the job done.

[Stephen Webb]

I agree that (despite my personal needs) Red has to take care of the ENG/EFP crowd too. I'm not sure that dropping 720/1080 would disadvantage them though - hence the attempt here to clarify what the issues actually are. It's no good saying "but we don't want to lose 120fps @ 720p scaled" when the feature never existed in the first place, or "we want 1080 'cause our client needs 1080" then finding out that the 1080 you're shooting is no good to your client because they can't playback Redcode.

Emanuel, you're hurting my head. Nothing excludes the 35mm standard so far as I can see, and 1/3" has nothing to do with anything! I'm glad you think we should be focussing on 35mm and s16 though, maybe we can drop the B4 problem? :innocent:

Anyway, bringing it back (I hope) to the point - the issues I've outlined here I believe cover everything and are the ones that need to be clarified and addressed in order to properly formulate an informed opinion. :pinch:

[Antoine Baumann]

Not sure it has been point out, but 1080p RGB scaled is the only possibility to recored up to 60fps REDCODE from the full sensor.

But then you don't have the RAW... it is quite compicate.

antoine.

[Stephen Webb]

Yep, 2nd one down on my original list (you can do 60fps @ 720p too).

[Häakon]

Not sure it has been point out, but 1080p RGB scaled is the only possibility to recored up to 60fps REDCODE from the full sensor.
Many, many times. :) But you're right - that's the big deal about 1080p. Of course...



But then you don't have the RAW... it is quite compicate.
...and you're right. Can't quite have the entire cake and eat it too (though considering everything we ARE getting, it's really nit picking at this point - or rather, trying to optimize the camera to its fullest potential before it ships).

[Antoine Baumann]

If everything was possible, I would personnaly first test to shoot 4K RAW up to 30fps, and if I need more frame rate drop to 2K RAW and deal with the difference of DOF (for exemple by using a faster lens and using at max apperture), because in the end I am almost sure to finish at 2K resolution any way.
The way I see it, with 1080p RGB at 60fps you deal the diff between RAW and RGB and then you can only finish at 1080p resolution except if you scale up your 1080p.

Now if 1080p is the max delivery of the project, and you need it right away (no process in REDCINE), then I still think to record straight from the HD-SDI to an HD-Deck is a solution.

my 2cents,

antoine.

[roryhinds]

On a Digital Cinema Camera 1080p RGB would not be used as much as 2k and 4k - yeah it would be nice to have the option but not essential and if it got in the way of improved 2k then its a no brainer.

What every you shoot with RED will have to be processed regardless whether its on the fly in FCP (still unproven) or through REDCINE.

I guess the whole "informed opinion" is the weak part.

No one apart from the people at RED and the lucky few testers know what they are working with.

Its all guess work and speculation.

Which is the best form of marketing.

Do any of us actually know what is being sold - its still all subject to change.

[Häakon]

If everything was possible, I would personnaly first test to shoot 4K RAW up to 30fps, and if I need more frame rate drop to 2K RAW and deal with the difference of DOF (for exemple by using a faster lens and using at max apperture), because in the end I am almost sure to finish at 2K resolution any way.
I think the difference in resolution between 1080 and 2K is a lot less noticeable than the difference between 16mm and 35mm image characteristics. You may have a point about the RAW capabilities, but that remains to be seen. Remember also that dropping to windowed mode will effect your FOV, so if you plan to mix 4K and 2K footage, there is a good chance you'll need carry up to twice as many lenses with you on your shoot. That can get both cumbersome as well as expensive.

When I read posts like Rory's - "on a Digital Cinema Camera 1080p RGB would not be used as much as 2k and 4k - yeah it would be nice to have the option but not essential and if it got in the way of improved 2k then its a no brainer" - I tend to disagree, because it's not apples to apples. The question isn't, "what's better - 2K or 1080?" because 2K is windowed and 1080 is scaled. Which is better depends completely on several variables that are going to differ from one shoot to the next. That's why it's important to have both.

Also, I think most people will end up finishing in 1080, not 2K - because it's both an HD video standard as well as the highest resolution available for a disc-based deliverable. 2K is really only used in the DI stage, and given that you're shooting digitally (and in RAW!) to begin with, that entire step becomes a moot point of the process.

[Emanuel A.]

(...) Emanuel, you're hurting my head. Nothing excludes the 35mm standard so far as I can see, and 1/3" has nothing to do with anything! I'm glad you think we should be focussing on 35mm and s16 though, maybe we can drop the B4 problem? (...)Stephen, as I linked, I've been succeeding the 2K route too, investing part of my money there, so...

But I'm not sure if the excessive self-centered focus on a 2K sensor area wouldn't hurt the RED glass sales, for example. Even if next to 4K REDCODE RAW from the 35mm matrix -- but in this case, not acting as such, so it won't work well, IMHO.

We know, 2K has been the taking off towards to 4K. But if you only have 35mm lenses, how can we go there below? On a smaller format. Unless, letting down something. Increasing the funds or simply not to buy. And this will revert as a liability for this project, not as asset.

[Emanuel A.]

(...) and 1/3" has nothing to do with anything! I'm glad you think we should be focussing on 35mm and s16 though, maybe we can drop the B4 problem? :innocent: In other words, so to speak, and only about the idea beyond the point on debate:

All the efforts are useful here in order to come true this dream that all of us share. Without (a lot of) customers, there wouldn't be RED.

[Antoine Baumann]

Häakon I think we are talking about 2K, because that's a standard for cinema, but yes there is not so much difference wiht 1080p. And it might well be the resolution most people will finish.

I also aggree that 2 sets of lens are not so good solution.

And I really don't think it is a "no brainer" choise...unless you can record 60fps @ 4K RAW ;-)

antoine.

[Häakon]

I really don't think it is a "no brainer" choise...unless you can record 60fps @ 4K RAW ;-)
Ha! I think that's one thing we can all agree on... :)

[Stephen Webb]

But I'm not sure if the excessive self-centered focus on a 2K sensor area wouldn't hurt the RED glass sales, for example.

Why? The Red Lenses cover the 2K area as well, and you get to keep the DOF characteristics!

[Emanuel A.]

Yes, but as you know, they're losing their own characteristics. A 18mm goes 36mm, more or less, and on and on and on. At least, at wide end, you shall need to go S16. So, it's more an expense.


Why? The Red Lenses cover the 2K area as well, and you get to keep the DOF characteristics!

[Poi Boy]

You certainly would't need a whole set of extra lenses (one or two} and at least for me would only be needed occosionally.
Aloha
-A

[Steven Parker]

Hey Stephen--

Thanks for solidifying what we know. Dizzying searching thru everything...

[Dexter Gregoire]

The DVX community is a wonderful, informative and supportive group of people. There could not have been a better place to launch such a camera besides NAB.

The truth of the matter is many people in that community wanted to work with professional tools that they couldn't get their hands on.

RED was launched and it was an opportunity that many people eagerly jumped for without regret. Another opportunity presents itself. The opportunity to shoot at a higher frame rate at the same resolution your favorite motion pictures were digitized - 2K.

I don't like limits even though they exist, but to know that I have the same ability at shooting higher frame rates the way DOP's do with their film cameras makes me even more excited to take that opportunity.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Maybe 2K@50 fps (including the @48 fps option if not possible @72fps or @60 fps) scaled ?


Extremely unlikely. It's that old RGB equation that keeps coming up:

2k is 1/4 the resolution of 4k but 3 times the channels.

so 75% of the data. Plus Graeme said that RAW compresses easier. So we'll throw in a random 5% on top of that.

75% less resolution for a 20% reduction in data? Do you really want that option?

[Häakon]

75% less resolution for a 20% reduction in data? Do you really want that option?
I think it's the faster framerate he is after, not the reduction in data size.

Of course RGB is hugely inefficient when we've got RAW, and it's obvious that Jim and the rest of the team are really trying to emphasize how much better the image can be when it's shot RAW. I trust their judgement, and believe they will make the best choices for the camera. Still, it doesn't fix the problem of higher framerates from the full sensor. It's clear that this issue is important to a lot of users and I think that's what Emanuel was trying to hit on.

[Brice Ansel]

Yes, but as you know, they're losing their own characteristics. A 18mm goes 36mm, more or less, and on and on and on. At least, at wide end, you shall need to go S16. So, it's more an expense.
Or maybe a afordable S16 redzoom

[WesG]

Or maybe a afordable S16 redzoom

ha ha yeeesss please
this would be epic

design a S16 redzoom with the Birger Eng guys that provides for manual/auto switching on iris and focus as well as servo zoom control
i.e. a B4 HD lens ramped up for true RED 2k RAW

then we can all forget RGB and live in a RAW world

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Or maybe a afordable S16 redzoom

At last, something that make sens.
Hey…Jim… over here !:detective2:

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I think it's the faster framerate he is after, not the reduction in data size.

Of course RGB is hugely inefficient when we've got RAW, and it's obvious that Jim and the rest of the team are really trying to emphasize how much better the image can be when it's shot RAW. I trust their judgement, and believe they will make the best choices for the camera. Still, it doesn't fix the problem of higher framerates from the full sensor. It's clear that this issue is important to a lot of users and I think that's what Emanuel was trying to hit on.

But the only thing really holding back 4k high speeds is the datarate.

My point was 2k RGB is practically in the exact same boat as 4k RAW when it comes to framerates. I guess you could get maybe 5 frames per second faster...

[Häakon]

But the only thing really holding back 4k high speeds is the datarate.

My point was 2k RGB is practically in the exact same boat as 4k RAW when it comes to framerates. I guess you could get maybe 5 frames per second faster...
2K RGB is now gone (not a part of the spec), but 1080p RGB still exists. With 1080 we can shoot up to 60p onboard, with 4K RAW only 30. That's quite a bit of difference.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

2K RGB is now gone (not a part of the spec), but 1080p RGB still exists. With 1080 we can shoot up to 60p onboard, with 4K RAW only 30. That's quite a bit of difference.

But I can't understand why because as far as datarates go... you aren't looking at a 50% reduction in data by going 1080p RGB. More like 25%.

So the bottleneck on 4k must be how many pixels per second the DSPs can compress into REDCode not just the bandwidth between the camera and the storage as I previously thought.

[Häakon]

Right, that's been the key the whole time. The camera is capable of reading 60p from the full sensor, but squeezing it into REDCODE is the bottleneck. That's why even with the RAID option you still can't send out REDCODE at 60p; it's not the bandwith but the processing.

That's also why I feel like we won't be able to get up to 60p onboard via a firmware update, even with the advent of faster CF cards or hard drives or whatever else comes down the pipeline. It's a hardware limitation, which would mean you'd have to send the camera in to be upgraded if/when that feature becomes feasible.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Well Compression algorithms can always be optimized. Look at JPEG2k. It's a slug. If REDCode compression times can be reduced higher frame rates would be possible.

[Häakon]

Hey, don't get me wrong - if 4K/60p onboard is a possibility (heck, even if 4K/48p onboard is a possibility), I doubt you'd ever see me shooting 1080. I can't speak for everyone, but that's my feeling. And I'm sure Graeme is doing his best to optimize the codec in the best way possible. At this point, RED has delivered so much... I wouldn't put anything past them. :)

[Gregory Leno]

Ok. I think I am finally getting it.

1080/60p from the full sensor on board in todays EFP world would be a very good thing.
4k/60p on board would be an amazing thing.

So if we can't have the latter please keep the former.

~ G

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Ok. I think I am finally getting it.

1080/60p from the full sensor on board in todays EFP world would be a very good thing.
4k/60p on board would be an amazing thing.

So if we can't have the latter please keep the former.

~ G

Now that I'll drink to. Because I know how much windowed footage I'll shoot with the RED camera... pretty close to 0.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Now that I'll drink to. Because I know how much windowed footage I'll shoot with the RED camera... pretty close to 0.

I'm glad you guys are begining to get it:sarcasm:

[Alexander Nikishin]

I'm glad you guys are begining to get it:sarcasm:

What is there to get?

That 2K Redcode windowed will be in the least even to and most likely higher quality than 1080P RGB?

That in 2K Redcode windowed we'd obtain an extra 36fps?

That if you're in dire need of 35mm dof in 2K windowed you can always put on a longer lens and move the camera back to match the desired fov?

I just don't see the profound benefits of RGB capture, RAW outdoes it in every form.

Redquick has been announced.....Don't have a 1080P deliverable at the end of the day? Use Redquick and create a 1080P quicktime wrapper for your client.

I'm sorry but this camera has been and will be tied predominantly to the 4K cinema market. It's already happening in the form of SS's Che films, Timur's Wanted etc. etc.

The RED ONE is a 4K Digital Cinema camera, and an additional 36fps will give it a much needed boost in that department. I hope you're beginning to get that.

[Gregory Leno]

What is there to get?

That 2K Redcode windowed will be in the least even to and most likely higher quality than 1080P RGB?

That in 2K Redcode windowed we'd obtain an extra 36fps?

That if you're in dire need of 35mm dof in 2K windowed you can always put on a longer lens and move the camera back to match the desired fov?

I just don't see the profound benefits of RGB capture, RAW outdoes it in every form.

Redquick has been announced.....Don't have a 1080P deliverable at the end of the day? Use Redquick and create a 1080P quicktime wrapper for your client.

I'm sorry but this camera has been and will be tied predominantly to the 4K cinema market. It's already happening in the form of SS's Che films, Timur's Wanted etc. etc.

The RED ONE is a 4K Digital Cinema camera, and an additional 36fps will give it a much needed boost in that department. I hope you're beginning to get that.

I can go and have gone both ways on this. But even though I agree that the design of the camera is oriented more toward the 4K cinema market (which is great) I can see the benefits of shooting off the full sensor @ 60p for a large segement of the market.

I frankly don't want to have a different set of lenses every time I want to overcrank, or re figure what I need using existing ones. (I didn't even want to buy a digital SLR until Canon came out with a sensor that matched 35mm film.)

The reality is I would love to have the 2k 96fps also, but like Jim said it is about choices. And for most of the work I will be doing and the capabilities of the camera right now I reluctantly am coming down on the 1080/60p side of things. If we could have 4k/60p on board and 2k 96fps I would drop that in a hearbeat.

~ Greg

edit: Ok I just saw that Jim just posted that we can do 2k scaled @ 60fps on board, as well as windowed @ 96fps. So that pretty much changes everything. If they do that, I'm back to the dark side......

[Emanuel A.]

Well Stephen, it seems you need now to update your outdated summary... :)

Cheers!
Emanuel


Maybe 2K@50 fps (including the @48 fps option if not possible @72fps or @60 fps) scaled ?

Yes, scaled (I'm saying the forbidden word :)) might satisfy a great majority of 2/3 here asking this since the first minute, higher frame option issue aside.

[Stephen Webb]

My outdated summary is updated.

[Emanuel A.]

:sorcerer:

[Michael Brennan]

Does anyone know how they are scaling to 2K/HD?
Using every second line of the sensor or is it sampling (which will reduce jaggies)


Mike Brennan

[Michael Brennan]

By suggesting a dropping of in-camera HD recording I wonder if the HD outputs may not be (able to be) optimised to full spec.

If this is the case, although Red users will have the worlds "best" 4k digtial cinema camera they will not not also have the worlds best HD camcorder and best HD camera head.

Hard to know how many potential RED users liked the idea of having both!

If HDSDI processing is an underlying tech issue, perhaps there is room in the market for two cameras, a HD optomised camera with high frame rates HDSDI outputs and a lower cost 4k only camera with DVI monitoring?


Use of a live HDSDI image with 35mm DoF could be big seller for soaps and concerts.

John Gault said to me that no way was Genesis to be promoted or perhaps even suitable for an OB, yet one of its its first big jobs was a multicamera rock concert in Australia.


Mike Brennan

[Sidney L. Plaut]

The lack of high frame rates in 2k / 4k is the reason we´re holding out on purchasing the RED 1. You simply cannot compare a real slomo in camera with a "false" done in post. Until RED delivers highframe rates im sticking with film...

Now in regards to the 1080/720 people who need to deliver in that format, You will get much better results downconverting from 2k/4k than shooting in 1080/720 so that isnt where the problem is. Just look at an offline DV clip shot on film and compare it to a DV shot clip (i know... bla bla organic vs digital.. but still..)
The problem for a ENG person might be STORAGE - 2k uncomp needs a lot more space than 720...

[Gavin Greenwalt]

But there really isn't any reason to use truly uncompressed anything now. Especially UHD.

[Alexander Black]

But the only thing really holding back 4k high speeds is the datarate.

That's what I thought but from reading around I think in RED's case it's either the sensor (most likely) or FPGA.

Which, meh, would be too bad. I wonder what they'll charge for guts-replacement when they come out with the version that does 4k full frame at 2400fps :greedy:

best,

_a

[Alexander Black]

But there really isn't any reason to use truly uncompressed anything now. Especially UHD.

Get thee hence and read his article in Showreel. It's excellent. I'm really nerdy and still learned some interesting things :) If storage bandwidth were doubling every 18 months, great, uncompressed would be the way to go. But it isn't. Processing "power" (which doesn't appear to be doing what it did, I think parallelism is the next thing, but I digress) _has_ been increasing at that rate. So it makes sense to try and cheat by storing less, which means streaming less, and processing more.

Excellent writing makes for excellent reading, Gavin. This month's showreel was the best ever(tm). :matrix:

For those that haven't seen it: http://www.showreel.org/currentissue.php "Gavin Greenwalt investigates wavelet compression"

_a