Wildlife documentary work

[Moir]

Hi

Anybody else looking to use Red primarily for wildlife work? If so, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on what lenses you plan to use, workflow plans, any other issues relevant to natural history documentaries.

Thanks

Duncan

[Jason Sturgis]

Duncan,

I plan on using Red mostly for Natural history production but this will also be a totally new learning curve for me. I am going to start out with the Red Lenses but am open to anything. For workflow and backing up my footage, this is a new area and I am sure I'll be checking this board frequently as it is the best source of info out there. But I see the workflow and back up as one of the criticial issues for people like us.
Hopefully there will be a bootcamp class as well to help us get the feel of Red and how to maximize its potential.
-Jason

[Michael Schrengohst]

It will be nice to have a solid 300MM lens for that
kind of work. Adapters just don't cut it....

[Toby Marsden]

I'm planning to use principally S16 lenses, shooting 2K raw (therefore windowed sensor), for the following reasons:

- Less apparent depth of field than full-sensor 4K - focus will be easier in the field
- 2K RAW will require less bandwidth (1/3 as much? probably more than 1/4 as much anyway, as lower-res wavelets may need a proportionally higher data rate) as shooting 4K. Mike Curtis has done some rough calculations suggesting a 8.5 hour 2K raw record time at 25fps (I'm in the UK!) with a RED-DRIVE. Why not pack 5 red-drives per trip... 40 hours recording (plus non-linear, so get rid of useless shots instantly).
- Up to 60fps @ 2K - same as the Varicam @ 720p
- Can downres to 720p RGB in-camera for framerates up to 120fps - remember, even 720p is still the same resolution as the Varicam, currently one of the main cameras for wildlife work. Of course, once the Varicam encodes to DVCPRO HD, the resolution is actually lower than 1280x720...

Super 16 lenses tend to be smaller than 35mm cine lenses, which is handier for use in the field, and also require a less chunky tripod than the heavier lenses. Of course, packing a nice wide 35mm still prime for shooting 4K landscapes is perfectly possible too...

Altogether, this camera could be perfect for wildlife work. Can you say "pre-record"...?

Cheers

Toby

[Jared VanLeuven]

We're going to use Nikkors at first. Can't go wrong with a good telephoto (300mm) for the stealth-shots and a wide-angle to get the panoramics in. Nikkors will keep the pack light as well! :)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Nikkors will keep the pack light as well! :)

You obviously haven't worked with the 1977 model 50-300mm f4.5 AI Nikkor zoom. :D Nice lens though, I picked it up dirt cheap on ebay.

[Mark Thorpe]

Yep,
I'll be sinking my cash into sinking RED. The longest lens I will be contemplating will be a 105mm. Anything over that and the particulate in the water gets to be overbearing. Most underwater stuff is done at very close quarters anyway.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Moir]

Thanks for the responses guys. Toby, I'm pretty much thinking along the same lines in terms of windowed 2k.

Still thinking about lenses, though. I've ordered the Red 300mm, which should be great for a lot of wildlife use.

Camdiver, I feel your pain. The cost of those underwater housings is brutal - forutnately for me, I never got the sub-aqua bug!

Cheers
Duncan

[Toby Marsden]

I'm pretty much thinking along the same lines in terms of windowed 2k. Still thinking about lenses, though. I've ordered the Red 300mm, which should be great for a lot of wildlife use.

Well, with 35mm lenses you've obviously got a field-of-view crop when working in windowed mode, which helps at the telephoto end. I guess much depends how long you're spending in the field and where the money's coming from. If you're on your own on a long trip then you probably just want a good wide-angle, a decent telephoto and solid S16 zoom for the middle range. Some sharp second hand Cooke and Zeiss lenses I've been looking at have been reasonably priced - $5k for a decent zoom which you can take anywhere might be a really good bet. Wildlife camerapeople tend to build up their own collection of kit, so having these lenses in the bag wherever you are, along with owning your own camera, has got to be a sensible strategy. Then, when you've got a budget, rent the specialist lenses you need for particular sequences.

I think one of the great benefits of flexibility of lens mounts and format options is the ability to use specialist lenses. Some of the filmmakers I spoke to at Wildscreen here in the UK last year had scoured eBay for macro lenses for their Sony 750 - and ended up with a massive array of lenses, most good quality, for relatively little outlay. And some breathtaking macro footage!

Toby

[Scott Webster]

I'm planning to use principally S16 lenses, shooting 2K raw (therefore windowed sensor), for the following reasons:

- Less apparent depth of field than full-sensor 4K - focus will be easier in the field
- 2K RAW will require less bandwidth (1/3 as much? probably more than 1/4 as much anyway, as lower-res wavelets may need a proportionally higher data rate) as shooting 4K. Mike Curtis has done some rough calculations suggesting a 8.5 hour 2K raw record time at 25fps (I'm in the UK!) with a RED-DRIVE. Why not pack 5 red-drives per trip... 40 hours recording (plus non-linear, so get rid of useless shots instantly).
- Up to 60fps @ 2K - same as the Varicam @ 720p
- Can downres to 720p RGB in-camera for framerates up to 120fps - remember, even 720p is still the same resolution as the Varicam, currently one of the main cameras for wildlife work. Of course, once the Varicam encodes to DVCPRO HD, the resolution is actually lower than 1280x720...

Super 16 lenses tend to be smaller than 35mm cine lenses, which is handier for use in the field, and also require a less chunky tripod than the heavier lenses. Of course, packing a nice wide 35mm still prime for shooting 4K landscapes is perfectly possible too...

Altogether, this camera could be perfect for wildlife work. Can you say "pre-record"...?

Cheers

Toby

Toby,

Having the same discussion on dvinfo with regard to Doco work. Stuart English posted some great info.

Of interest the Abakus PL to 2/3" B4 mount adapter that allows you to run 2/3" lenses on a PL mount giving you S16 coverage. Whether this is up scratch quality-wise to deal with HD 2/3" lenses or the Red would have to be tested, but if it works you have the advantages of ENG lenses (on lens servo control) with S16 coverage (long 2K record time).

http://www.zgc.com/zgc.nsf/product/C1044112A001BD4985256EC9005F5789

The other item was a backup unit AIT 5:

"For backup, I'd take a close look at AIT-5, which is "DVCAM for Data". Haven't found any Firewire or GigEthernet native models yet, but they are fast (24MB/s) big (400GBytes), support non-erasable WORM media, and cheap (tape $60) Drive is also pretty small. About $3K - $3.5K street price. Makes a nice 1: 1 backup to a 320GB drive."

[Mark Thorpe]

Thanks for the responses guys. Toby, I'm pretty much thinking along the same lines in terms of windowed 2k.

Still thinking about lenses, though. I've ordered the Red 300mm, which should be great for a lot of wildlife use.

Camdiver, I feel your pain. The cost of those underwater housings is brutal - forutnately for me, I never got the sub-aqua bug!

Cheers
Duncan

Yeah, well at least this will put an end to the housing purchases, one camera, one housing for the foreseeable future. Happy about that one.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Mike Devlin]

CamDiver, are you planning to use a 35mm zoom lens underwater (RED, Cooke, Angenieux)? Are you going with the Gates housing? I signed up for the Gates Red housing several weeks ago and they said several others had signed up ahead of me, I was thinking you might be one of them.

The variety of lenses possible one the RED may make it difficult to have only "one" housing. Certainly Gates is interested in which lens will be most common for UW RED shooting. The housing design is somewhat dependent on the lens (especially for a zoom). That is why the PACE F900 housing (Mark 4 HDW) specifies the Fujinon 10x5.2 lens. Many 2/3" underwater housings (F900 anyway) tend to specify Fujinon 10X or 13X zooms.

Perhaps if a group of RED users agree on what lens they want for underwater it will make it easier for the housing companies. I would prefer a fast, wide zoom (Cooke S4i 15-40mm T2.0 or Angenieux Optimo 17-80 T2.2) but lenses seem to be a personal taste based on budget and style of shooting.

[Mark Thorpe]

Hey Mike,
Seen your website before, nice work. I'm in line for a Gates and am trying to figure out which lens option to go for at the moment. The idea of shooting 4K is so damned attractive but not a reality at this point due to budgeting. That said I'd like to think I'll get there eventually. The plan is to shoot max of 2K windowed using Nikkor so that I can utilize some of the glass I use with my newly acquired D200.

For the housing I think it will be pretty standard for the camera. Each user will have differing budgets and differing shooting formats. I can't see that Gates will make the housing only available for the 4K shooters or the 720P shooters for example. Not up to speed on where they are with the development of the main housing body yet but will fire John an email sometime in the coming days. I can really see that the housing will be standard and then the individual user will look at commissioning the construction of a lens extension tube for their lens options with the required manual controls.

If we could get an idea of who is truly looking to go underwater with RED then we could get a good discussion going on lens options and try to get some closure for Gates. If not I guess its gonna be a while down the road before we get to sink our RED's.

My 2c.
Mark.

[Mike Devlin]

Thanks Mark. Let me know what you hear from John. I think he was in San Diego a few days ago since our boat is down there and the crew said they ran into him.

Since we are primarily shooting in Alaska the next two years we do not have the luxury of clear tropical waters and clear tropical light. That's why I would lean toward a full-sensor 35mm lens, ideally f2 or better to capture every photon available. Plus shooting 4K is pretty attractive, like you said. That will require a large port on the housing (both the Cooke and the Angenieux zooms are 136mm front diameter and they are wide angle lenses...), so I do think Gates has a challenge designing for multiple lenses. Bouyancy and weight distribution will also be effected, although I saw how you addressed that in the pics you posted. Clever.

To be honest, we are so used to 2/3" ENG lenses for this style of shooting, with built in zervos for zoom, focus and iris, it gives me a headache to think about how you can make it all work with 35mm Cine style lenses. Fortunately we have some time to work it out and we can leverage posts from others here. I assume the film guys know all about this. I have never looked closely at an underwater housing for a film camera, but I think the ones I have seen were set up for primes only. Lots to learn over the next couple of years.

[Ken Corben]

DIGITAL DATA HANDLING IN THE FIELD

We all now that after spending umpteen days/weeks in the field to get our shots and sequences the budget is spent for nat hist docs. Is the idea to hand carry the external drives thru jungles and deserts then thru airport security? Any veteran producer ain't about to check the drives with the luggage.

Back up the data 2 or 3 times in the field and use fedex to ship one back up?

Invest in a DLT deck for field back up - will that work in 2K? 4K?

Rent or purchase the panasonic DVCPRO HD portable VTR to at least have a 720P tape back up?

Any ideas?

[chuck colburn]

DIGITAL DATA HANDLING IN THE FIELD

We all now that after spending umpteen days/weeks in the field to get our shots and sequences the budget is spent for nat hist docs. Is the idea to hand carry the external drives thru jungles and deserts then thru airport security? Any veteran producer ain't about to check the drives with the luggage.

Back up the data 2 or 3 times in the field and use fedex to ship one back up?

Invest in a DLT deck for field back up - will that work in 2K? 4K?

Rent or purchase the panasonic DVCPRO HD portable VTR to at least have a 720P tape back up?

Any ideas?

Up link via satellite phone!

[Mike the beginner]

Since we are primarily shooting in Alaska the next two years we do not have the luxury of clear tropical waters and clear tropical light. That's why I would lean toward a full-sensor 35mm lens, ideally f2 or better to capture every photon available. Plus shooting 4K is pretty attractive, like you said. That will require a large port on the housing (both the Cooke and the Angenieux zooms are 136mm front diameter and they are wide angle lenses...), so I do think Gates has a challenge designing for multiple lenses. Bouyancy and weight distribution will also be effected, although I saw how you addressed that in the pics you posted. Clever. Quote from Mike Devlin



I agree with what you say (from all my theory learning;) )

Any decent U/W housing will cost a fair bit of money so i would want it to last and perform to a standard that can match the red one. Low light for me will be a killer as i am in Scottish waters where visability is limited. The use of a s16mm lens would reduce the light gathering qualities of the red one.

I know some of you would love to get the housing as soon as the camera is available but perhaps it would be worth waiting to see the finer detailed specs of the red zoom. This as Jim stated is going to be a campact zoom possibly weighing no more than seven pounds. Its costs are excellent, it is full cine lens and would compliment any housiing. It would cover a multitude of situations though for some it might not be wide enough. 18mm for most people is pretty wide and the zoom well i would probably see nothing at the full telephoto anyway but perhaps others can comment. Just my thoughts:)

ps At 2.8 the zoom might not compare to a quality fast wide prime but those are just more added costs. Unless reds next prime is a 15mm wide macro. That would be worth spending money ( i think)

Michael