ENG and Cinema...

[Jannard]

We are not trying to exclude the ENG shooter. We have a B4 adaptor to PL mount (although we do not have many orders for that accessory yet), along with a B4 connector on the right side of the camera. We have successfully tested that the run/stop on a B4 lens does in fact... start recording. :-) And the B4 adaptor enlarges the image to 2K size. It does quite a good job.

So one fact to begin with is that a B4 lens is native to 2K in our camera and not 1080P.

There is no data rate saving shooting 1080P RGB over 2K REDCODE RAW, while there is a considerable difference in image quality and "elasticity" of the images.

One little known fact is with REDQUICK (our mini app) you can instantly put a Quicktime wrapper on REDCODE RAW files to immediately view as a Quicktime movie. There is no transcode time to do this. It is truly instantaneous.

We fully acknowledge the importance of ENG uses of RED ONE. We just want to make sure we deliver what is needed, not just what is asked for.

This is a healthy discussion that we are watching closely.

Jim

[Dexter Gregoire]

I guess it's just an extra step. The transcode. I don't mind.
Some people may be in the field with no laptop and the client wants it now, hand it over.

The benefit I believe most people see is shooting at a better resolution, that's probably why there hasn't been too many orders for the B4 adapter.

I prefer 2K at a faster frame rate.

[Karl H]

what about 1080p raw, would that not be possible? and if so I'm assuming at a slightly higher frame rate than 2K@96

[Ramesh Jai]

I guess if we can replay footage from the RED itself (I understand that can be done) to view on a location monitor then the client wouldnt mind waiting a day for the rushes..

[Kevin Halverson]

Sounds like REDQUICK is a nearly perfect solution for quickly creating a QT viewable file. With no rendering required I can't imagine that this isn't the final piece of the puzzle that was needed.

Was this previously announced and I missed it or is this the first mention of this application?

[Steve Freebairn]

Redquick sounds awesome!

[Zach Hilton]

Basing on what Jim has mentioned, it kind of makes sense to opt for the 2k option. If the image you'll get doing ENG work with a B4 mount is 2k anyway, why not get it at the best possible quality ever. Granted, we haven't received our cameras yet, but at NAB during the demo of using the footage, they were editing 4k off of the red drive if I remember right. I remember the statement very clearly...it was "4k just got as easy as DV to edit." That is very true. With the release of this camera I believe there is going to be some molding of clients to understand that there might be a wait to get the footage in a perfect condition for their purposes. Go for what is the best, and Jim has repeatedly said the redcode RAW is the way to go. Carry on Red Team!

[Jason Murphy]

I guess it's just an extra step. The transcode. I don't mind.
Some people may be in the field with no laptop and the client wants it now, hand it over.

But unless Redcode RGB becomes a widely accepted codec, you'll have to transcode to something else anyway in RedCine in order for a client to use the footage. Or the client will have to transcode.

If the client needs usable 720/1080p footage IMMEDIATELY, record the footage out onto tape via the HD-SDI ports as you're shooting. You'll still likely end up giving them a better image than most cameras out there.

Now it may be that Redcode RGB/RAW on disk does become a widely accepted footage format, and it looks like REDQUICK will help with this. And in this case, who cares about shooting 1080P RGB natively? Just give them the RAW footage if someone there can work with it, or do a quick one-light transcode in Redcine to another format.

Really, going over things, the only legitimate argument I can currently see for native on camera 1080P is the ability to shoot full sensor with 35mm DOF characteristics at 60 FPS to CF or RedDrive.

EDIT: Just realized that unless I'm mistaken, there's no official word on whether it is possible to shoot 1080P@60FPS to CF. Anyone?

[Craig Bowman]

Now that more information is at hand I would concur to go with the 2k@96fps and lose the 1080 and 720.

Make it so Jim!

[IAN SUN]

Wow Jim, the announcement of REDQUICK certainly changes the ENG considerations re. turnaround.
A no transcode Quicktine wrapper is amazing.

[Terry_Lasater]

More and more, 1080 and 720 seems like a job for the RED Mini.

[Graeme Nattress]

REDQuick is just what it says. It's for RED files and getting them QUICKly into QUICKtime. It's practically instantaneous to make the wrappers, and then you can instantly play back the files in Quicktime player.

Graeme

[roryhinds]

"(although we do not have many orders for that accessory yet)"

I was told don't worry about accessories as reservation holders will be contacted to compile their accessory list when the camera is due to ship...

Has something changed that we need to put our orders in now?
What accessories will be available?

Can we find out more about RED Motors and if they are available and what remotes they work with?

[T. Glen Phelps]

Are we talking about playing back 4K files or the 1K proxies?

[Graeme Nattress]

At the moment, REDQuick generates Quicktimes that play back at 2k, 1k, 0.5k.

Graeme

[T. Glen Phelps]

2K should be fantastic for playback/review.

Thanks for the quick reply Graeme.

[Edmund Boyle]

I will be using Red for D Cinema production using 4k raw and mostly any documentary work but I also need options.

Can I use Canon lenses on the Red using the proposed Birger mount and if necessary use this for a live feed to broadcast using whatever codec it takes?

What am I looking at here regards requirements or limitations?

Lets say a customer requires a live broadcast of a concert and wants it at 1080P. Will this be possible?

(apologies for asking these basics but the last few days has opened up a pandoras box and now I dont know whats possible and whats not?):unsure:

[PaulClements]

Is this more about doing away with RGB than 720p and 1080p to have a faster FPGA? I guess RGB represents more work, for what I imagine you see is essentially a sub-standard output and if that's the case then fine, get rid.

Will RedQuick be able to wrap the file as 1080p for playback on 1080p monitors? or will it simply play back as 2k and anything less than an apple 30" simply rely on resizing via the Quicktime window?

Edit:

At the moment, REDQuick generates Quicktimes that play back at 2k, 1k, 0.5k.

Graeme

[Zach Hilton]

At the moment, REDQuick generates Quicktimes that play back at 2k, 1k, 0.5k.

Graeme

I'm curious at the mention of REDQuick. If it generates proxies of 2k, 1k, or .5k, can any EDL use these Quicktimes to edit? I assume these proxies are accessing the original REDCODE RAW file in a similar way that Raylight did with MXF files for import into Premiere. If so, then one can basically use whatever NLE they want, if I'm not mistaken.

[Steven Parker]

REDQuick is just what it says. It's for RED files and getting them QUICKly into QUICKtime. It's practically instantaneous to make the wrappers, and then you can instantly play back the files in Quicktime player.

Graeme

That's pretty kick-ass. Totally kick-ass, actually.

[Stuart English]

Sounds like REDQUICK is a nearly perfect solution for quickly creating a QT viewable file. With no rendering required I can't imagine that this isn't the final piece of the puzzle that was needed.


We are currently working on adding the option of REDQUICK-style Quicktime reference file generation into the camera itself (please note there are some technical hurdles still to be overcome). Your digital media would then have a master 4K REDCODE RAW data file plus Quicktime reference files (proxies) at 2K, 1K and 0.5K as Graeme described.

So in addition to real time playback of RECODE RAW data on-camera, we can offer instant or virtually instant playback via your computer.

[Thom Steinhoff]

REDQuick is just what it says. It's for RED files and getting them QUICKly into QUICKtime. It's practically instantaneous to make the wrappers, and then you can instantly play back the files in Quicktime player.

Before there were Macintel limitations on quicktime playback. Is that still the case? Does this work on all flavors: Mac Intel, PC, Mac PowerPC?

Red Quick is great news and even better that you are looking at adding it directly in the camera!

[Anders Holck]

How will these reference files compare to a full 4k decode and scale to 1080p in Redcine? (Or to a on board 1080p)
If the quality is much different, I would like to be able to enable watermarking in RedQuick/Redcode codec, so the client don't fuck up and use the reference file for final mastering.
What do you think?

[PaulClements]

At the moment, REDQuick generates Quicktimes that play back at 2k, 1k, 0.5k.

Graeme

So sizes of 2k, 1k and 0.5k are the following yeah?

2k = 2048 x 1152
1k = 1024 x 576
0.5k = 512 x 288

[I Bloom]

We fully acknowledge the importance of ENG uses of RED ONE. We just want to make sure we deliver what is needed, not just what is asked for.

Jim

I've been feeling pretty distressed about this issue recently. Regardless of my confidence in your company, I have to stop and look closely at what I know about the market. The more cinema centric RED becomes the more I feel it becoming a big gamble. And I'm a cinema shooter, the majority of my work is dramatic, but the majority of my high paying clients are not. And I think this is the case for most people who would consider buying a camera. A DP who shoots only high end cinema and commercials should be investing in real estate not cameras.

Look at RED in terms of evolution. If we throw some bacteria into boiling water, they will all die. But if we put them in a hotsprings where one side is cool and the other side boiling then some of them will evolve over time to tolerate more and more heat. 4K is for me boiling water, we want to be there but we need to evolve into it. I think that could happen very fast, like in two years. But evolution doesn't occur without a gradient, the slope of the beach we crawled up.

Even though the alternative formats from RED are still RGB, what's important about them is that they reduce the amount of data at the outset. So for me 720 is actually better than 1080 because it represents economics mode.

We really just need the numbers Jim. RED needs to look at what its going to cost their average customer to deliver various kinds of footage. How much computing power do they need and how much time.

IBloom

[Elijah Kelley]

Thanks again Jim, Stuart, Graeme and Co.

It really seems to me that the sheer logic of 2k at 96fps is a cost effective solution. And now with the advent (mention) of REDQUICK how is there no time. If you can shoot then wrap in REDQUICK couldn't you just output to 1080p especially seeing that the B4 adapter is
2k native on the RED ONE y not?

It's not like we're talking less power consumption. I'm sure we're talking as long as it takes to output if REDQUICK is virtually instantaneous. Where's the legitimate gripe? No one is left out. If there's no laptop to output to just give the client the media and they can wrap it. Unless you're doing live satelite link why is 720p or 1080p for that matter needed? Can someone clarify?

[CJ Roy]

RedQuick would seem to certainly eliminate the need for all my clients to replace their PowerPC macs with Intel Macs.

Sounds good.

-CJ

[Steve Freebairn]

At the moment, REDQuick generates Quicktimes that play back at 2k, 1k, 0.5k.

Graeme

How are these to work with in After Effects CS3? what about Premiere?

[Thom Steinhoff]

RedQuick would seem to certainly eliminate the need for all my clients to replace their PowerPC macs with Intel Macs.

Sounds good.

-CJ

I hope so, but I'm not sure we got confirmation that RedQuick generated files will work on PowerMacs, PCs and Intel Macs.

Stuart?

[I Bloom]

There is no data rate saving shooting 1080P RGB over 2K REDCODE RAW, while there is a considerable difference in image quality and "elasticity" of the images.

I guess then the problem maybe is that 1080P RGB is that its too similar to 2K.

Perhaps we actually need something lesser, I suggested earlier DVCProHD or HDCAM with LUT's baked in. Then at least we are handing a client something established.

The problem with doing this to a tape deck off the HD-SDI and not too a hard drive is add cost and hassle. Stick a fork in them, tapes are done. On board random access storage is the beauty of RED.

IBloom

[SF Geek]

I still don't know what the question is Jim? Is it between 1080@120 and 2k@96, or are you thinking of dropping scaled RGB all together? I don't see how any of us can talk so highly about 2k windowed when we haven't seen one frame of it to make any kind of judgement. That leaves only 4k Redcode Raw as a proven quality format with scaled RGB gone.

I understand that you want only the best for your camera Jim, but the way you talk sometimes about everybody having to come up to Red's standards, sounds a little arrogant. Producers don't need to come up to anything. But after my Red investment I'm going to need to make my money back. Yes, eventually Red will prove to everyone that its formats are superior, but until then there are just too many clients that want 720 and 1080. And web commercials and corporate are not just ENG with a B4 lens. Those clients want a high end cinematic look too and they are largely coming up in budget and scope. They want a 35mm look, but in 720 or 1080.

Nobody here is arguing the quality and versitility of Redcode Raw. With Redquick it sounds even better. Especially if you can add the wrapper when transferring files to the client drive. The thing is, I know what is needed to make the money back on my camera investment. The largest portion of Red investors that will profit off of their purchase will do so the same way. Corporate and commercial clients will be able pay the day rate of the Red camera. As of right now and the immediate future they want 1080 and 720.

[Stuart English]

Even though the alternative formats from RED are still RGB, what's important about them is that they reduce the amount of data at the outset. So for me 720 is actually better than 1080 because it represents economics mode.

Hang in there IBloom, my previous deep immersion in "you can do what now?" was Varicam and HD to FireWire 400 drives.

The uncompressed data rates for 4K RAW v's 1080p RGB are 9,437,184 v's 6,220,800 samples, but the evidence is that imaging the same scene, RAW compresses easier than RGB so the nett compressed data rate is similar. For 2K RAW v's 720p RGB its 2,359,296 v's 2,764,800 samples, and again the RAW compresses a bit easier.

So what we think we know from our past experiences is not always true.

And I also still think the bottom line is: Your clients don't care how it works, as long as it just works!

[Emmanuel Decarpentrie]

everybody having to come up to Red's standards, sounds a little arrogant.


As of right now and the immediate future they want 1080 and 720.

But nobody here is arguing against that? Of course they need 1080 and 720. But what Jim is talking about is that it is much better in terms of quality and flexibility (not even to mention disk space) to shoot in 2K and then convert everything in the format required by the customer.

Redcode RGB is NOT a codec that is gonna be useful for your customers anyway. So, no matter what, you're gonna HAVE to make a conversion before you can deliver something to your customers. At least, that's how I understand it... I think the best solution, for my ENG shoots, would be to export the rushes to tape, probably HDCAM... after I've made the conversion!

The only difference for the customer will be that he will have to wait until the next day to get his rushes...

[Stephen Webb]

Corporate and commercial clients will be able pay the day rate of the Red camera. As of right now and the immediate future they want 1080 and 720.

But they will only get this once you've transcoded it for them. So does it matter whether the camera is recording it internally as 1080 or 720?

[SF Geek]

Does transcoding take as long as transferring files from one drive to another? Could I not transfer files at max data rate from whatever media to the client drive in 720 or 1080 RGB? i know that they're Redcode RGB but I thought that that was a quicktime compatible format.

[Gregory Leno]

until then there are just too many clients that want 720 and 1080. And web commercials and corporate are not just ENG with a B4 lens. Those clients want a high end cinematic look too and they are largely coming up in budget and scope. They want a 35mm look, but in 720 or 1080.
... As of right now and the immediate future they want 1080 and 720.

If Clients still want 720 or 1080, then give it to them. It seems to me that Red is offering a pathway there. It's just not one that people are used to.

[Larry]

How are these to work with in After Effects CS3? what about Premiere?

Technically, Premiere could be used to edit RED raw files the same way as one may edit Cineform raw files in Premiere. Furthermore, likely, it would not be technically that difficult to convert RED raws to Cineform raws or vice versa. Both rely on wavelets. If so, that would open immediately the doors to Premiere and After Effects.

[Stephen Webb]

Does transcoding take as long as transferring files from one drive to another? Could I not transfer files at max data rate from whatever media to the client drive in 720 or 1080 RGB? i know that they're Redcode RGB but I thought that that was a quicktime compatible format.

Take a look at Stuart's post here (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3500).

[CJ Roy]

Someone from Red really needs to clarify what formats they'd like to eliminate and why, and what the ramifications of that would be, including an approximate decoding time from a variety of machines. Perhaps a graphic table, or something similar to the formats page on Red.com. Until that's clear, we're making uninformed decisions and this is just stirring up the hornet nest. If professionals are miscommunicating this, can you imagine their clients?

My .02 - Thanks.
-CJ

[Steve Freebairn]

Technically, Premiere could be used to edit RED raw files the same way as one may edit Cineform raw files in Premiere. Furthermore, likely, it would not be technically that difficult to convert RED raws to Cineform raws or vice versa. Both rely on wavelets. If so, that would open immediately the doors to Premiere and After Effects.

I don't really think going from Redcode raw to cineform raw is a super great solution. I'd like to hear from a member of the Red team, to confirm this (that premiere and after effects can handle redcode raw).

[Casey Green]

Stuart,

We still haven't heard if it is technically possible to have the user change (upload) the firmware on the FPGA to decide which formats they would like to shoot in...

Can you please chime in on this? Wouldn't that give us the best of ALL worlds?

[Stuart English]

Producers don't need to come up to anything. But after my Red investment I'm going to need to make my money back. Yes, eventually Red will prove to everyone that its formats are superior, but until then there are just too many clients that want 720 and 1080. And web commercials and corporate are not just ENG with a B4 lens. Those clients want a high end cinematic look too and they are largely coming up in budget and scope. They want a 35mm look, but in 720 or 1080.

So lets take that 35mm analogy. Film isn't a video format, but its understood how to get it into the video domain at a variety of resolutions. The essence of this discussion is if we can RAW to video in a transparent manner, where then is the issue?

[Poi Boy]

shoot raw then convert to whatever the client wants,pretty simple. If you think that is not fast enough opt for a tape based camera.
Aloha
-A

[PaulClements]

Stuart is this more of an issue of removing RGB than it is of 720/1080p?

And if we do away with RGB completely is 96fps still the most we can expect at 2k or would there be more room to hit the 120 barrier?

[SF Geek]

Poi boy, that's the thing. I don't want to opt for a tape based camera. I'm trying to get rental on the Red.

[David Newman]

what about 1080p raw, would that not be possible?

One reason to support 1080p RAW is to avoid a 2048 to 1920 down-scale, this 6% downres is not ideal, as most scalers would soften the image as compared to a 1080p crop. If you going to crop in post, why not crop in camera. Of course shooting 2048 does offer some subtle re-framing options if you going to crop, but based on my experience with the SI-2K, I shoot 2K when I want that and 1080 otherwise -- it speeds up the post the post to avoid any re-framing or scaling. 1080p RAW is a fine option if that can happen.

[SF Geek]

Hey Stuart,
The issue is that I need to be able to get footage to the client the day of the shoot. If Redcode Raw and Redcine can do that without too much thought and manpower, then I'm ok with that. I'm just worried that my Red rental will lose out to a varicam or other camera because of convenience for the client.

[PaulClements]

One reason to support 1080p RAW is to avoid a 2048 to 1920 down-scale, this 6% downres is not ideal, as most scalers would soften the image as compared to a 1080p crop. If you going to crop in post, why not crop in camera. Of course shooting 2048 does offer some subtle re-framing options if you going to crop, but based on my experience with the SI-2K, I shoot 2K when I want that and 1080 otherwise -- it speeds up the post the post to avoid any re-framing or scaling. 1080p RAW is a fine option if that can happen.

Why not use 6% less of the sensor?

Record only 3840 x 2160 pixels of the entire sensor and then divide the image by 2 when using 35mm lenses and record only 1920 x 1080 of the sensor with S16mm lenses and output as RAW. Wouldn't this just be a simple piece of the math for the brains of the RedOne to remove certain pixels.

[I Bloom]

how long is it going to take?

This question keeps coming up. It seems to be the main piece of information that we need in this debate.

I would add another question to the mix. Can we compromise anything to save time?

IBloom

[Häakon]

shoot raw then convert to whatever the client wants,pretty simple. If you think that is not fast enough opt for a tape based camera.
Aloha
-A
This is essentially how I feel, too. For me, RED is going to be my alternative for 35mm film. No client gets instant film dailies five minutes after the shoot is over. They can get a hard drive - just like we've been doing with all of the other tapeless solutions - and they can watch the footage instantly with "Redquick." If they need LUTs added, etc., they can wait for a transcode of the RAW footage just like they'd wait for film to be developed and processed. Seems to me the client is covered this way; they have something to watch at the end of the day and they have the ability to see a treated version shortly thereafter if they need. Because of these reasons, I'm really not that concerned.

HOWEVER, as of this writing, all we know is that the only way we can get faster than 30fps readout of the entire sensor is through use of 1080p. I just can't support losing the format if it's the only way I'm going to be able to get higher speeds from the 35mm area. 2K and 1080 are NOT the same thing, people need to understand that. One is windowed and one is scaled; they will behave differently and more often than not need a different set of lenses to work with. Just because they're close in resolution doesn't mean we can just ditch 1080 because 2K may offer us up to 96fps.

Perhaps the RED team knows more about getting higher framerates out of 4K and they are just holding back until they can squeeze the most out of the camera that they can... maybe they're trying to wait until the last moment to give us one last amazing bullet point before the camera ships. Maybe they've done all they can and 30p is the most we can expect out of 4K onboard. I don't really know. But I cannot vote for canning 1080 until we have that information. If it was just a simple case of "the client needs 1080 immidiately!" then I would say there are several ways of shooting in 4K and giving them 1080 content. But 1080 offers something that neither 2K or 4K do - 60p from the full sensor - and I can't believe anyone would want to get rid of that.

[David Battistella]

We really just need the numbers Jim. RED needs to look at what its going to cost their average customer to deliver various kinds of footage. How much computing power do they need and how much time.

IBloom

Wait. This workflow is more efficient, smarter and economical than P2. THink about it. You can shoot all of this to CF cards.

There is no difference to what they are proposing from P2. The wrapper allows you to play the footage back at the rate you want. if QT plays it back in realtime then so will FCP, the work is being done in the codec.

If you are delivering 720P then you would edit in the 1K version of the 4K file and RED is doing the conversion on the fly.

Just take a step back and think about how amazing this is.


David

[Dexter Gregoire]

Wouldn't it be great to shoot 4k or 2K@ 96 fps then;

Remove the Drive or CF Card,
Plug it into your computer and;

Output to anything you want using the software that comes with the Camera. Apples or Oranges 1080p or 720p. Golden.

It doesn't get any easier than that!

Varicams need a Deck. Decks are expensive. The beauty of what the RED Company has developed makes it easy for Renters, ENGatherers, Junior film makers and Professionals alike to Shoot, Transcode, Edit in the software of your choice and Deliver excellent quality images all at an affordable price. I couldn't ask for anything more, except for 2K@96fps since Jim Jannard brought it up.

[David Cubbage]

This debate reminds me of the choices you got with the JVC HD100 camera when it first came out. You had the choice of shooting HDV720p or SD straight from the camera. Now although most people's delivery was only going to be SD at the end, did they set the camera to shoot SD? No, they shot in HDV720p, edited natively and down converted to SD for delivery. Why? Because you got a better end result. I know because that's the way I shot. You only have to read the boards on DVInfo.net to see that's how most HD100 owners worked. The beautiful thing is about this way of shooting is that if, at a later date you wanted an HDV720p version, you already had it. JVC called it "Future Proofing".

I am not comparing the HD100 to the Red but what I am saying is that obviously when JVC designed their camera they thought that they ought to give shooters the option of shooting in a lesser format in camera because their HDV 720p was a completely new format and users might want the choice of giving their customers SD if needs be. But, as I stated in the above paragraph, most people didn't use this option after all.

I think that Jim's suggestions are very sound; the opportunity to shoot in 4K and convert to any other format in in Redcine is truly amazing; why the need to shoot 1080 or 720 in camera when you have all these choices. I think that when our customers see the fantastic footage the Red camera can produce they will all be asking for higher formats than 1080 and 720. Of course it's too late if your master in 1080 or 720.

Why do you think they still use film for major TV series when, apart from the HD channels, you still have to accept broadcasts in SD? Because if your master is the very best quality this shows in your finished product right down the line. With the workflow Red is giving us I see no reason why I should shoot in anything less than 4K with 35mm glass and DOF and down convert to what ever format my future customers demand. And if they change their minds I have the original 4K masters on disc.

I have read every post since Jim's suggestion on this argument, except for the ones I've missed while typing mine, and, while I am sympathetic to some of the arguments against the motion; I still see Jim's suggestion as a positive step forward in the development of Red One.

[Michael Hastings]

I just can't support losing the format if it's the only way I'm going to be able to get higher speeds from the 35mm area. 2K and 1080 are NOT the same thing, people need to understand that. One is windowed and one is scaled; they will behave differently and more often than not need a different set of lenses to work with. Just because they're close in resolution doesn't mean we can just ditch 1080 because 2K may offer us up to 96fps. But 1080 offers something that neither 2K or 4K do - 60p from the full sensor - and I can't believe anyone would want to get rid of that.

This seems like a pretty big issue, people are paying thousands for 35mm format converters for their HVX200 because they want the DOF characteristics. If 2K can't do that it's a problem.

My question: why can the camera handle 1080p RGB realtime conversion and downsampling of the 35mm sensor but 2K raw can't be done from the full sensor? Doesn't make sense to me.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

My question: why can the camera handle 1080p RGB realtime conversion and downsampling of the 35mm sensor but 2K raw can't be done from the full sensor? Doesn't make sense to me.

It has to dow with the sensor data itself and how the bayer pattern and info is dealt with. According to Graeme / Stuart, this can't be scaled unless it is converted into RGB color space first. So this is why the 1080p scaled mode has to be RGB and not RAW.

Of the RGB modes, the only one I'm interested in keeping is the 1080p mode. And only because it would allow for capturing the full 35mm sensor area at rates from 30fps to 60fps. Jim has said that 4K @ 60fps is in the specs, just not for this first release. I'd love to know some more details about that... Are we looking at a minor revision and upgrade in the not too distant future or will this involve a significant upgrade at some much later date?

[Häakon]

My question: why can the camera handle 1080p RGB realtime conversion and downsampling of the 35mm sensor but 2K raw can't be done from the full sensor? Doesn't make sense to me.
Well the problem is you can't scale RAW data, you have to convert to RGB first. So whereas 2K is RAW (because it's just taking a crop of actual pixels), 1080p is scaled because it's taking all of the pixels and oversampling them into a smaller image. You lose RAW functionality when you do that, however.

The only way to get RAW data from the full sensor is to shoot with the full sensor (in other words, shoot 4K). Given that, 4K is really the only format I would be interested in. The caveat, however, is that (as of right now, anyway), 4K REDCODE RAW is limited to 30fps onboard. If you need more than that (which many do), the choice is to either oversample or just take a center portion of the sensor so that the data rates are smaller and the camera can handle it. Then the question becomes what's more important to you - the RAW functionality, or the 35mm image characteristics? Resolution is negated at this point because 1080p and 2K are so similar - and the 1080 image should theoretically look better because it's a 4X+ oversample.

Of course if we could have 4K at 60fps REDCODE RAW onboard none of this would be an issue, but I'm sure that if they could offer us this they would in a heartbeat.

[Antoine Baumann]

I don't really think going from Redcode raw to cineform raw is a super great solution. I'd like to hear from a member of the Red team, to confirm this (that premiere and after effects can handle redcode raw).

yeah sure they can, it have been stated many times, that any piece of software that support qt codec will hadle redcode raw.

I don't see the point to go from redcode raw to cineform raw...depending on your workflow it might be usefull, but don't see why

antoine.

[Häakon]

You beat me to it, Jeff. :-)

As for the 4K/60p...


Jim has said that 4K @ 60fps is in the specs, just not for this first release. I'd love to know some more details about that... Are we looking at a minor revision and upgrade in the not too distant future or will this involve a significant upgrade at some much later date?

This *is* already in the spec, but only in the (uncompressed) RAW mode out the high-speed data port. And as far as I can recall, the HSDP isn't going to be ready right when the camera first starts shipping either. The sensor is capable of reading the entire 4K area 60 times a second, but there isn't enough juice to take that image, compress it to REDCODE RAW, and write it to the media that quickly. I thought this was more of a processing issue than a bandwidth issue, but some of Jarred's recent comments seem to indicate otherwise.

If they can't get 4K/60p onboard enabled by the time the camera ships, it certainly would be great to know that it's something a firmware update could address. Up until this point, however, I understood it to be a hardware limitation.

[M Most]

I repeat something that someone else asked about 5 pages ago, but it hasn't been answered and bears repeating:

How will these reference files compare to a full 4k decode and scale to 1080p in Redcine? (Or to a on board 1080p)

The notion that playing from a Quicktime file in Final Cut is a post solution is only valid if there is no difference between a real time demosaic operation, and a rendered demosaic. As far as I know this is not the case - in order to get full quality, you need to render. That would mean that regardless of the convenience for editing, playing the Quicktime file is not a delivery solution, and that at some point, a full render will always be required to create a deliverable product, regardless of whether it's done in Redcine or somewhere else. Am I wrong here?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

As for the 4K/60p...

This *is* already in the spec, but only in the (uncompressed) RAW mode out the high-speed data port.

Yeah, I'm fully aware of all that... But I can't justify having the RAW port factory installed (and eliminating my FLASH option) for a feature that I will only use every once in a while. Besides, it would also require a large external RAID and/or powerful system to process and compress the data stream to REDCODE RAW in real-time.

In Tom's recent thread from the last day or so, making one last plea for 4K @ 60fps on-board, Jim responded. He said that 4K @60 was in the spec, just not in the first release... So I take that as an encouraging sign, but I think what it means is just what it literally says. I think RED is planning for 4K at 60fps and beyond to be recordable on-camera. And that will come in a future release (as in version 2.0 of the camera or however you want to look at it) and it will require first release cameras to be sent in for an upgrade.

It's the on-board processors (as far as I've always understood it) that are the problem with recording beyond 30fps in 4K. They just can't cope with that amount of data to crunch.... This led to all that discussion about RAM buffers or other options that would allow for recording 4K @ 60fps on-board rather than being tethered to some box the size of an under-counter refrigerator.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

How will these reference files compare to a full 4k decode and scale to 1080p in Redcine? (Or to a on board 1080p)

The notion that playing from a Quicktime file in Final Cut is a post solution is only valid if there is no difference between a real time demosaic operation, and a rendered demosaic. As far as I know this is not the case - in order to get full quality, you need to render.

I suppose that depends on the real-time demosaic and scale algorithm being used... I would like to imagine a quality setting in there somewhere and the ability on more powerful workstations to get a full-quality down-res in real time. But it seems that the RED team is holding off on quoting any such numbers, abilities and performance stats until final testing is done and cameras ship.

[Häakon]

Yeah, I'm fully aware of all that... But I can't justify having the RAW port factory installed (and eliminating my FLASH option) for a feature that I will only use every once in a while. Besides, it would also require a large external RAID and/or powerful system to process and compress the data stream to REDCODE RAW in real-time.
Absolutely, I wasn't suggesting that it's a viable alternative for most users. Just that when I read "4K/60p is part of the spec," I don't automatically assume that to mean it's onboard and in REDCODE RAW - just that the camera is capable of 60p in 4K. Just like it's capable of 30p in 4K onboard right now - but not to the CF cards (yet), just the RED-DRIVE.


In Tom's recent thread from the last day or so, making one last plea for 4K @ 60fps on-board, Jim responded. He said that 4K @60 was in the spec, just not in the first release... So I take that as an encouraging sign, but I think what it means is just what it literally says. I think RED is planning for 4K at 60fps and beyond to be recordable on-camera.
Are you talking about this (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3493) thread? I don't see a post from Jim, but maybe he said something somewhere else? I know it's hard to keep up with everything.

If Jim did say "4K/60p onboard is in the spec," I'd take it for what it says... but just saying that the camera can do 60fps at 4K doesn't tell me that. It is possible to read into these things too much. :-)


It's the on-board processors (as far as I've always understood it) that are the problem with recording beyond 30fps in 4K. They just can't cope with that amount of data to crunch.... This led to all that discussion about RAM buffers or other options that would allow for recording 4K @ 60fps on-board rather than being tethered to some box the size of an under-counter refrigerator.
Right, that's essentially what I was saying in the end of my last post. If it's a hardware issue, however, and not something that a firmware update can fix, that means we'd all have to send our cameras back in to enable the faster speed recording. I think most would rather pay more for a bigger buffer (or whatever it is) up front, than have to deal with that.

[Michael Hastings]

Thanks, Jeff and Haakon for the explanations. I guess I want my cake and to eat it too - I thought that reading out every other pixel (or set of bayer pixels) wouldn't be any harder than reading a cropped area. It seems to me I read about a special nikon High speed digital SLR that did more frames per second by reading out like I was thinking i.e. reading less pixels but from the full frame area, but maybe it did just read a cropped area too.

You've convinced me that it isn't technically possible to get 2K FULL FRAME but has anybody answered the question about whether (since the FPGA can't hold the code for all of the modes plus 2K @ 96) the FPGA could be field programmed through the normal CF update process to do either mode?


It has to dow with the sensor data itself and how the bayer pattern and info is dealt with. According to Graeme / Stuart, this can't be scaled unless it is converted into RGB color space first. So this is why the 1080p scaled mode has to be RGB and not RAW.

Of the RGB modes, the only one I'm interested in keeping is the 1080p mode. And only because it would allow for capturing the full 35mm sensor area at rates from 30fps to 60fps. Jim has said that 4K @ 60fps is in the specs, just not for this first release. I'd love to know some more details about that... Are we looking at a minor revision and upgrade in the not too distant future or will this involve a significant upgrade at some much later date?

[Antoine Fabi]

Is it me or is the development exponential ?

The last weeks have been rich in new possibilities.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Please Just Say Bye Bye 1080p And 720p RGB And Hello 2k Redcode At 96fps onboard?

I think the need and demand for 2K slow mo heavily outweighs the need for ENG and Doc shooters 1080P RGB requests.

Think 300, how else could we get anywhere near those sort of shots without near 100fps shooting.

I think RED was designed first and foremost as a 4K Digital Cinema camera, not an ENG camera, so if something needs to be cut in order to boost it's cinema capabilities, please do so.

Jim, even if this option doesn't make it to the final version of RED, I'll take the 2K 96fps proto. :umm:

[Neil Duffy]

Is there any chance of 4k @ 48fps?

[Alexander Nikishin]

I'm just thinking along the lines of making the RED ONE the end all be all to Digital Cinema cameras, not in the Digital Cinema, ENG, Doc, Live Event market.

If RED doesn't have sufficient slow mo capabilities, that will be a very big downfall IMO. Think of how many films utilize great slow mo shots.... Action films, Martial Arts films, Dramatic moments, explosions, slow motion is a very key feature and that is honestly the only thing that RED lacks at this moment.

Sure there's always the option of shooting 35mm or with the Phantom, but again, that defeats the purpose of RED.

Remember, the RED MINI can handle the lower end resolutions along with ENG related work while its big brother RED ONE can handle the Cinema department.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Is there any chance of 4k @ 48fps?

Probably not, as that would be about double the data processing requirement of 2K at 96fps.

[Larry]

I don't really think going from Redcode raw to cineform raw is a super great solution. I'd like to hear from a member of the Red team, to confirm this (that premiere and after effects can handle redcode raw).

Sure, I agree, if the question is of editing immediately what is shot, yes, then editing Redcode raw in Premiere is the best choice. However, there are needs going beyond this immediate pragmatism.

Many will edit the material shot with Red along with other formats and there is also a need to archieve the files. One may have already a huge archieve and it is impossible to switch from one system (say Windows and PPro) to another (Mac and FCP). To keep the amount of archieved data in reasonable limits, storing the raw files is the best approach. Once this choice is made, one should be able to live with that say the next 20 years, and in 2025 one needs to be able to convert Redcode raws to whatever format is then on the markets.

If Red will focus on the cinema camera, then it sounds reasonable that Red made co-operation with companies like Cineform yielding maximal flexibility to the Red users to convert Redcode files to what ever format they like including Cineform raw. Technically the conversion between Redcode raw and Cineform raw makes far more sense than conversion to many other formats. Furthermore, this would also help managing with our customers who already edit with PPro and Cineform. In which format are you planning to give them your Red material?

I believe it would be a win-win game if there were a Red and Cineform conversion. These formats would then become the de facto standard of NLE 2K and 4K market.

In the end of the day, the question is whether Red wants to be a cinema camera company or also a software house. Compare, in early days of personal computers Apple kept both the hardware and software in its own hands and did not co-operate with external partners. Microsoft took another strategy. From the user's point of view, opening the doors to external partners on secondary issues could benefit a lot the Red owners.

[Jeff Coatney]

I think it is clear from the outset that the RED was designed for people who, to a great degree, will have control over their shooting environments and their subject matter. 35mm depth-of-field (one of Red's principal features) pretty much demands at least some attention to subject and location. If you don't have control over your subject or your shooting environment, then you won't like shooting ENG with this camera. RED obviously requires that one plan one's shots.

EFP, most Documentaries, Industrials and commercials schedules should be able to absorb the required time to transcode footage. If you need it now, right now, to hand off to a client, air on the six o'clock news or just beat the next guy to the punch, why would you choose Red?

When one examines the features that this camera has, it becomes increasingly obvious that 720p and even 1080p are largely irrelevant capture formats. They are really only delivery formats, but bear in mind this option is not closed to the RED user, it only requires transcoding.

You would never shoot news with a Panavision. With all the technical issues that are being discussed and are quite relevant, let's not forget the primary use for this camera. Jim is sending test units out to movie directors and motion picture DP's. To my knowledge he hasn't sent any out with TV crews to shoot news (which includes sports).

I know one of the big markets for this camera will probably be sports related, but I doubt anyone will use it to report. It will shoot beautiful documentaries and analytical footage.

I think engineering and R&D time spent on anything relating to 720 or 1080 will be time wasted once the camera is released. The longer this camera takes to get to market, the better RED's detractors and competitors will like it and the greater the R&D lead time they get to mount an effective response to it.

Time can ironically be both beneficial and detrimental to the RED project. Sure, the camera will have stunning features that we all crave, but we're reaching a critical moment in the development cycle when decisions must be made and locked. The cameras will ship soon and the first units must generate revenue for RED and the RED User. The quicker that day arrives, the longer RED will enjoy it's headstart on dominating the market.

I expect Jim, if he hasn't already, will lock the features in the next few days and pull the trigger on the assembly line. I have every confidence in Red Team's ability to develop forward, ahead of the trend curve. I only hope my fellow Red Users will see the benefit of having a real market edge in the 2k & 4K capture.

The envelope of what is possible in our industry is about to change. You must put your pre-conceived (and firmly entrenched) notions of HOW you do business aside and let the technology drive. The technology, thanks to Red Team, is in some degree of flux right now. It is times like these, when revolutionary products are introduced into well established business models, that new lines of business and new efficiencies emerge. Not a good time to take one's eye off the ball.

I have heard a great deal about how we all work and our needs and desires for what this product will deliver. RED is positioned to have a quantum impact for those of us who make moving images. Simply introducing this camera and the accompanying workflow in post will create far-reaching and unpredictable changes in how things are accomplished in post and for delivery.

You are all members of this community because you can SEE the future that RED Team is creating and you know what it means for you in your business and career. Jim's motto is: things can change, count on it. We too must change, we must be open to completely re-learning how we do things or this camera will end up being a seventeen thousand dollar paperweight. Are we up to it? Will the Red User be a match for the camera? Only time will tell...

This industry is about to change, count on it.

[Ramesh Jai]

Please Just Say Bye Bye 1080p And 720p RGB And Hello 2k Redcode At 96fps onboard?

I think the need and demand for 2K slow mo heavily outweighs the need for ENG and Doc shooters 1080P RGB requests.

Think 300, how else could we get anywhere near those sort of shots without near 100fps shooting.

I think RED was designed first and foremost as a 4K Digital Cinema camera, not an ENG camera, so if something needs to be cut in order to boost it's cinema capabilities, please do so.

Jim, even if this option doesn't make it to the final version of RED, I'll take the 2K 96fps proto. :umm:
"I think the need and demand for 2K slow mo heavily outweighs the need for ENG and Doc shooters 1080P RGB requests".

How can you be so sure about that - really?

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks Jim for your re-affirmation of RED’s commitment to other uses of RED One beyond D-cinema. Much appreciated…as it has been included and mentioned by RED Team since RED One was announced.

I believe this thread is the first mention of REDQUICK and it’s capabilities. Great concept…it enables what’s needed for client review, etc. Very cool! I think there’s a definite need for REDQUICK…I’ll look forward to using it.

IMO the reason not many B4 adaptors have been ordered, even though it does have extensive utility in the EFP industry, is that it is simply an indication of the limited number of EFP-oriented guys on this particular board and RED's heavy market positioning as a D-cinema camera without much publicity for its EFP capabilities. With a little change in marketing strategy for the B4 adaptors I think they'd sell quite well. There are tens of thousands of B4 2/3" HD ENG and cine lenses owned and rented in the overall EFP industry.

There seems to be some real misunderstanding on this thread as to ENG and EFP definitions. RED One will have only limited application for ENG (electronic news gathering), but massive application for EFP (electronic field production). ENG is but a small sub-genre of non-hardlined EFP, and ENG is but a tiny percentage of televised programming. Non-hardlined EFP is by far the highest percentage of all televised programming. Some examples of televised non-hardlined EFP include: drama, reality, documentaries, news b-roll, alternative sports, nature, and many others. Some examples of hardlined (trucked/studio switched) EFP include: daytime drama, sports, music specials, some competition reality, and others. There are scores of examples of non-televised, non-hardlined EFP production: business media, events, and many more. Those who seek a definition and explanation of ENG, the many divisions of EFP and how RED One can be used in them can find a lot of useful info in my “EFP/ENG Explanations and Definitions” sticky.
Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1105

I’d invite those on this thread who seek to claim RED One as a D-cinema only camera, and question that RED One was also being developed all along for broad EFP to re-read my March 2006 published interview with Jim Jannard:
Link: http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/6388.html

A continuous stream of statements by RED Team members since then has re-affirmed RED’s additional commitment to additional EFP capability in RED One.

The EFP/ENG for RED forum was established on RED User almost 6 months ago, and so was my EFP & ENG Definitions and Explanations sticky that explains the divisions of EFP and ENG, and my recommended uses for RED One within them. If RED One wasn’t being developed for extensive EFP use that forum wouldn’t have ever been established by Jarred, and my sticky wouldn’t have been posted and approved by him. Why are some many cine-centric guys on this board repeatedly, selfishly, and egotistically trying to claim RED One as a D-cinema only camera at the expense of those of use who work in a broad range of cine and EFP genres? Statification of motion media camera systems into ironclad categories and camps of film, EFP, ENG, etc. is the way the industry has been for decades. My view of media convergence is equipment that unifies, simplifies, and enables the use of current technology for a broad range of styles and genres – thus generating increased skills and revenue for adopters. That’s why I adopted RED early on…and that’s why I’m still here.

I’ll repeat…the EFP market is the single largest potential market for RED One, and the membership of RED User does not accurately reflect the actual demographic and market for RED One. Those who think that RED One is just being beta tested in features and pure cine-style applications need to think again. Rodney Charters’ testing of a RED beta on “24” is an example of non-hardlined EFP – electronic field production. Sure, he uses certain cine lenses and accessories, but the style and end use is televised non-hardlined EFP. This past year he’s been promoting JVC HD100/101 cameras in mag ads for similar applications: non-hardlined EFP with cine lenses and accessories. Mark Nevaldine's beta testing of RED One was also non-hardlined EFP shooting. Digital cinema is not a clearly defined industry – there’s a ton of crossover to non-hardlined EFP. If productions are shot in an EFP environment for use in EFP applications (TV - not the big screen), I maintain that that even though they use some cine style lenses/accessories, and some cine style techniques, they are categorized as EFP.

Some other notes
EFP via the HD-SDI to tape option is only feasible stationary or nearly stationary EFP productions. Mobile non-hardlined EFP, the largest percentage of EFP, and probably the highest percentage of all motion media production total worldwide, will not be able to use the HD-SDI to tape solution for reasons of lack of mobility.

IMO full sensor downsampling to 1080p, in camera, at frame rates from 31-60fps is a critical utility and marketing point for RED One to the mobile non-hardlined EFP industry – probably RED’s biggest potential adopter market. That same market can use their B4 2/3” HD ENG and cine lenses with a RED B4 adaptor in 2k RC RAW, but there are many times that they will want full-sensor scaled 1080p with a combination of full frame (not windowed), wide FOV, 35mm DOF and chroma downsampling for their HD-destined productions – and only 1080p RGB will satisfy all those needs.

The 4k through REDCINE and REDQUICK workflow is outstanding and well though out! I’ll shoot tons of 4k on my RED One’s, using RED S35 lenses (and others), and 35mm still lenses. All of that is awesome for sure. But, as noted in the paragraph above I still think a full-sensor sampled, up to 60 fps 1080p RGB should remain in the final specification for RED One.

Post script
The more RED succeeds in its rollout, the better it is for all of us adaptors, whether we be camera buyers or renters. A strong RED One showing across multiple industries, styles, and genres translates to more revenue potential for every one – RED as a company and use as adopters. If someone chooses to limit themselves to a narrow niche of production, fine, but there are others of us who are significantly broader in our professional and fiscal approach to the motion media business. For those who want to limit themselves down to a small range of cine style productions to now selfishly try to fly up the “D-cinema Only!” flag at this late date in RED One’s development, in ignorance of RED One’s continuous claim to being developed as a D-cinema and EFP camera, is disappointing, divisional to this community, and demonstrative of a thorough misunderstanding of RED One’s pedigree, developmental goals, and intended uses.

Thanks again Jim for re-affirming RED’s commitment to the EFP sector of this industry. I’ve understood that from the beginning, and it has been published widely. Now if the members of this board and others would simply read that history, what’s been published, use the search functions, and keep open minds, there would be a lot less factionalism on this board and others about what RED One is and what RED isn’t.

We’re all part of the overall motion media family, everyone deserves respect, and IMO some RED One adopter’s attitudes of “We’re the Bourgeoisie” (cinema/D-cinema) and you’re the Proletariat (everyone else in the industry)” need to be done away with – and it needs to be reflected in the features, utility, and revenue generating flexibility of emerging camera systems like RED One.

[Matt Steinauer]

Just a thought. If you're shooting a scene in 4k with 35mm depth of field and decide to shoot part of it at 2k/96fps you will open up two stops to compensate for the light loss. The equivalent depth of field now with your super 16mm FOV 2k resolution will effectively be the same as the 4k 35mm at 24fps.

[Stephen Webb]

IMO full sensor downsampling to 1080p, in camera, at frame rates from 31-60fps is a critical utility and marketing point for RED One to the mobile non-hardlined EFP industry – probably RED’s biggest potential adopter market.

But why is it critical? No other camera can do this, so how are you missing anything by not being able to do it on Red?

[SF Geek]

Couldn't have said it better myself Gibby. There is definately a snobbishness toward anything non-cine that's becoming more prevalent from the latest threads. When people say just rent another camera for EFP (not ENG) work they don't seem to understand that if I do that I'm not getting rental on my investment. I might have been wrong on a few things concerning transcoding and getting deiverable formats, but I didn't misread the tone of many on this thread.

A couple other things. Stop investing so much in the windowed 2k when we have never seen any footage from it. Also, stop making assumptions about what the Red Mini is for and what it can and can't do. Red has said nothing other than they plan on making it sometime in the future.

[SF Geek]

Stephen. What do you mean by no other camera can do 1080 up to 60fps?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Actually we know exactly what the 2k window will look like: a 2k crop of any of the released stills so far.

Whoa... who said RED can do 60fps @ 1080p RGB on camera? That's a lot of data even with REDCode!

[Steve Gibby]

But why is it critical? No other camera can do this, so how are you missing anything by not being able to do it on Red?

Because no other camera can do it, RED One shouldn't? RED One has been positioned from the beginning as an evolutionary, if not revolutionary D-cinema and EFP capable camera system. I mentioned that full sensor downsampled 1080p, in camera, at frame rates from 31-60 would be important to non-hardllined EFP production (giant market for RED One) because all of those parameters would be very useful in multiple genres of non-hardlined EFP production: sports, nature, documentaries, events, business media, and on and on and on.

There's a whole other world of production and revenue generation potential beyond the "24p for cinema" paradigm...and there's a bunch of us RED One adopters who plan on doing it and the "24p for cinema" production.

[SF Geek]

Orly, as of right now, 1080 scaled RGB goes up to 60fps. It's on red's camera specs on their site.

[Storyline]

For many productions, the current 1080p environment for editing and delivering is of utmost importance. Scalers in the editing systems are of dubious quality and can introduce nasty artifacts and softening. In-camera scaling to 1080p for recording to Red Drive or Red Flash or CF, even if it's not a RAW format, would keep the door open for easy workflow in many enviroments. Just give me a decently compressed 1080p scaled file to push into PremierePro, Avid, or FCP so I can get to work - or give my footage to someone else to get to work ASAP.

I plan on using Red at 4k for our documentary theatrical projects, but for the bread and butter corporate work happening right now and for the next several years - 1080p scaled crisp and clean in camera and ready for editing is what is needed.

--Dan

[Andrew Young]

I’ll repeat…the EFP market is the single largest potential market for RED One...

The more RED succeeds in its rollout, the better it is for all of us adaptors

I completely agree with you Gibby, but the question is are those 1080p RGB files going to be any more useful to Rodney and the post team on 24 (or any other EFP application) then the 4K Redcode Raw files? It sounds like those 1080p RGBs are still going to have to be transcoded into a format that John Q Production's Avid can use, so why not do it from the 4K Redcode Raw files and maintain the better dynamic range of that format (which is the true genius of this camera)? Will in-camera 1080p support do anything to increase Red's acceptance if the file format is does not fit directly into existing non-Final Cut pipelines?

Shouldn't this debate really be about the utility of 60fps with the full sensor (which I think is very valuable) rather than D-Cinema vs. EFP?

[Stephen Webb]

Because no other camera can do it, RED One shouldn't?

What I'm saying is it's not "critical" that Red has this feature - it would hardly be seen as missing apart from a few people who knew that at one point it was planned. The usefulness of the feature needs to be weighed against that of the proposed feature it would make way for.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Orly, as of right now, 1080 scaled RGB goes up to 60fps. It's on red's camera specs on their site.

Oh sure. You can also do 4k up to 60fps but where do you put the frames? I don't think 60fps 1080p RGB to REDDrive has ever been an option.

[Michael Hastings]

There's a whole other world of production and revenue generation potential beyond the "24p for cinema" paradigm...and there's a bunch of us RED One adopters who plan on doing it and the "24p for cinema" production.

Amen, that is my situation as well - the big and is the key.



IMO the reason not many B4 adaptors have been ordered, even though it does have extensive utility in the EFP industry, is that it is simply an indication of the limited number of EFP-oriented guys

Gibby (and Jim too): I think the reason only a few B4 adaptors have been ordered is that first of all it is an adaptor (with whatver quality loss that creates) and it is $3500. I think a lot of RED users are those that may have full size B4 mount standard definition cameras and their only HiDef is an HVX200 or Z1 prosumer. RED is their choice for full scale HiDef rather than the DVCProHD or Xdcam offerings from Pana/sony etc. Therefore they don't have an HD B4 lens to cross over. (I also think people would be surprised at how many HD B4 mount cameras are used with SD lenses.)

Also even if you have a Varicam or F900 with HD lens it is likely you'll either want to keep it working or sell it and the HD lens would stay with it.

Personally, although there are a lot of situations where I will miss the solid grip, zoom rocker and momentary auto iris that I have on my B4 lens, I would rather put the $3500 toward either the RED PL lenses or the Birger mount and a set of Canon lenses.

But it doesn't change the fact that most of my direct paying jobs will be the EFP type that you describe.

[Steve Gibby]

What I'm saying is it's not "critical" that Red has this feature - it would hardly be seen as missing apart from a few people who knew that at one point it was planned. The usefulness of the feature needs to be weighed against that of the proposed feature it would make way for.

OK...let's follow your analogy: taking full sensor scaled, downsampled 1080p RGB, in camera, at frame rates from 31-60 away from RED One affects the single largest potential market for RED One - the non-hardlined EFP industry potential. It may not be "critical" to guys who only do D-cinema, but it would be critical to thos eof us who do a wide variety of production genres, including non-hardlined EFP - again the single largest potential market for the RED One camera system in terms of potential adoption penetration, thus sales and rental market fee generation.

Conversely, including 2k RC RAW @96fps in RED One, at the expense of eliminating and full sensor downscaled 1080p RGB in camera 31-60fps would benefit the cine market (moderate market potential), but hamper the EFP market (largest market potential).

4k RC RAW in camera is limited to 30fps...fine for many applications, but not a high enough fps for many others...close but no cigar!

I can appreciate the cinema industy...indeed I work in the cinema, EFP, and digital photography industries. But RED is a business and I think their decisions on the final specs for RED One will then affect RED One's adoption penetration rates for each genres within the overall motion media industry...and also affect the revenue generation potential of multi-genre adopters of RED One, of which I am one.

If there's a way to include 2k RC RAW @96fps and full sensor downsampled (scaled) RGB at frame rates up to 60fps in the final specifications for RED one, once again I'm voting for that. That would give multi-genre producers more flexibility and also generate RED a higher adoption rate for RED One.

[Stephen Webb]

It may not be "critical" to guys who only do D-cinema, but it would be critical to thos eof us who do a wide variety of production genres, including non-hardlined EFP - again the single largest potential market for the RED One camera system in terms of potential adoption penetration, thus sales and rental market fee generation.

I disagree. I don't for a minute believe that there's a large section of EFP users out there who have a "critical" need for 1080p @ 60fps scaled from a 35mm-sized sensor. It won't "hamper" EFP shooters in the slightest, it's just it won't give them the slightly fun new option that you're clearly hankering after!


4k RC RAW in camera is limited to 30fps...fine for many applications, but not a high enough fps for many others...close but no cigar!

That's OK, 'cause now everyone can do 2K @ 100fps! Which should be fast enough for any EFP application (except the sort that use the Tornado, but hey there's not many of them & Red ain't going to those kind of framerates anyways).


But RED is a business and I think their decisions on the final specs for RED One will then affect RED One's adoption penetration rates for each genres within the overall motion media industry...

And I reckon if they drop what you're asking for it'll make not a jot of difference to their penetration rates, 'cause there's no demand for what you're suggesting.

It seems evey time an issue in this argument is met and succesfully rebuffed, another more tenuous one comes along to replace it. Those damn staws just keep on moving...

[planet e]

What I'm saying is it's not "critical" that Red has this feature - it would hardly be seen as missing apart from a few people who knew that at one point it was planned. The usefulness of the feature needs to be weighed against that of the proposed feature it would make way for.

the battle cry of "make obsolescence obsolete" was aimed directly at sony and panny and the other HD makers, not at viper or genesis or SI. and i signed up for two of these cameras based on the precept of never having to settle for another 1) half-baked or 2) over-priced camera idea from the major manufacturers. the original premise of this camera was to eliminate trickleware and the trickleware model of doing business. and that directly addresses HD.

but those manufacturers still own the delivery systems and therefore control the deliverables. and until that changes, if RED takes 1080p out, that will be a huge thwarted expectation on my end.

i don't think i'm one of the "few people" --i think "few people" addresses the folks who currently make an actual living producing theatrical releases. i'd bet my XH A1 that the number of us making a living in the corporate or EFP world far outstrips those folks in numbers...and even this camera's release is not likely to change that ratio substantially....

and, just to reinforce the point, downsampling does frequently introduce unwanted artifacting. native 1080p is the best insurance against it....

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Great post, Gibby!


IMO full sensor downsampling to 1080p, in camera, at frame rates from 31-60fps is a critical utility and marketing point for RED One to the mobile non-hardlined EFP industry – probably RED’s biggest potential adopter market.

Absolutely. Not only that, but 1080p scaled from the full sensor at higher framerates has applications in every genre I can think of, even cinema and ENG. This mode has to stay... It can't be eliminated until the day we get full 4K REDCODE RAW at 60fps recorded onboard.



Just a thought. If you're shooting a scene in 4k with 35mm depth of field and decide to shoot part of it at 2k/96fps you will open up two stops to compensate for the light loss. The equivalent depth of field now with your super 16mm FOV 2k resolution will effectively be the same as the 4k 35mm at 24fps.

I doubt it will be that straight forward. This will depend on several factors, primarily the lenses being used and their light transmission properties. In the end, DOF is still a function of the FOV combined with focal length. It's not going to be that easy to duplicate many DOF characteristics if you're switching between 35mm and 16mm glass, especially if you're trying to retain the same framing of your subject.

As far as shooting with the 2K windowed area (which is going to happen occasionally when I need those higher frame rates or other optical characteristics of 16mm or 2/3" imagers)... What concerns me more with this is lens options and differences. I'm planning to use RED glass for all my 35mm needs, but what of 16mm? I can still use the 35mm glass. Doing so, DOF, exposure, etc.. all remain the same, but I'm getting an image that's a 75% crop of what that lens is placing on the sensor area. Or I could opt to go with a s16mm lens where I could try to mimmic the same focal length and framing of a similarly marked 35mm lens on the full sensor area, but I wouldn't have the same FOV or DOF characteristics. And here's also where exposure and color reproduction between different lenses can come into play.

Obviously, this is going to take some testing and comparison and which method is better will probably depend on the project at hand. But I'm really starting to think I need to pick up an s16mm PL mount zoom to go with my RED One. My RED lens kit is starting to look like it's going to be RED s35 18-50, 50-150 and a TBD s16mm zoom like a 20-100. From there I can start dreaming about the RED prime set and other possibilities.

[Stephen Webb]

Right, this has gone on long enough.

Clearly the only solution to this debate now is for us all to line up and have a giant pie fight.

Gibby, I'll draw up the battlelines - you bake the pies.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I think this whole debate is moot if the camera can't record 1080p RGB @60fps on board.

Can we get an official word on if that's even an option?

I mean... If it's between 1080p at 1000 fps and 2k @ 100 I would choose 1080p but that doesn't mean I get that choice.

[Steve Gibby]

I disagree. I don't for a minute believe that there's a large section of EFP users out there who have a "critical" need for 1080p @ 60fps scaled from a 35mm-sized sensor. It won't "hamper" EFP shooters in the slightest, it's just it won't give them the slightly fun new option that you're clearly hankering after!

Sports, nature, documentaries, reality, events, business productions, and many other genres and sub-genres regularly need 60 fps. Those genres are part of the family of non-hardlined EFP production genres. They also represent collectively the largest single percentage block of motion media productions each year in the world. If you don’t see that need, then I would ask you, do you produce in any of those genres? If so, what % of your production is in those genres. I’ve contributed to about 800 international and national television productions directly within those genres, and several hundred other national business media projects, so I have a good handle on the tech needs of those genres…and I think scaled 31-60fps would be very helpful for them.


That's OK, 'cause now everyone can do 2K @ 100fps! Which should be fast enough for any EFP application (except the sort that use the Tornado, but hey there's not many of them & Red ain't going to those kind of framerates anyways).

Yes, that is nice and it is useful, and it is desirable…but it is windowed so it has its limitations also, many of which have been enumerated on this thread and others.


And I reckon if they drop what you're asking for it'll make not a jot of difference to their penetration rates, 'cause there's no demand for what you're suggesting.

It seems evey time an issue in this argument is met and succesfully rebuffed, another more tenuous one comes along to replace it. Those damn staws just keep on moving...

I think you’re wrong…see my paragraph above. If you work in sports, nature, documentaries, reality, events, and business productions, let’s hear about it so we can draw a conclusion about what professional experience you’re drawing that opinion from. If you do work in some of them, but just shoot 24p, or for some reason like a narrow FOV from a windowed sensor, you wouldn’t like the creative possibilities of faster frame rates from a scaled sensor. Etc.?


-----------

BTW Stephen, I thought your summary of the issues post on the "Understanding 2k vs. HD Issue" thread (your Post #2. Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3497), was excellent. I have no personal axe to grind with you and I respect everyone's opinion. Critical tech discussions like this one are what online tech boards are all about - plus they give critical real world feedback to RED.

[Matt Steinauer]

Hey Jeff,

You bring up great points. I was thinking of a case where you are simply using the same 35mm lens. In my case I'm picking up all the RED zooms and using the 2k windowed for the high speed stuff.

[Steve Gibby]

I've reserved all the lenses that RED has announced..and I'll use them heavily. But, I'm also looking for the the creative ability to use S16mm, 35mm still, and B4 2/3" lenses to their maximum potential whenever a project callls for them as the best option for the project.

Creative options, in camera, with lenses, and accessories is what I'm after...

[Stephen Webb]

Sports, nature, documentaries, reality, events, business productions, and many other genres and sub-genres regularly need 60 fps.

Yeah, and none of 'em need 35mm DOF, so the 2K windowed option will do well in each of these. Documentaries, Events & Business Productions are all areas I'm in ("Reality" can go take a running jump) and I don't see that 60fps and 35mm DOF together are a necessity.


I have no personal axe to grind with you and I respect everyone's opinion.

Oh hell, I've no axe to grind either. If I did I wouldn't be doing it here. If anything I'm just trying to get you to admit that your reason for wanting 60fps scaled is the same as my reason for wanting 100fps 2K windowed - personal preference. The argument for the "need" for either is debateable (as I think we've adequately proved).

[Steve Gibby]

Yeah, and none of 'em need 35mm DOF, so the 2K windowed option will do well in each of these. Documentaries, Events & Business Productions are all areas I'm in ("Reality" can go take a running jump) and I don't see that 60fps and 35mm DOF together are a necessity.)

Well, I use 35mm DOF for tons of the creative b-roll, inbumps, outbumps, mood montages, etc, with in my productions in those genres (and sports, nature, etc.), and so does my competition. My last Emmy Award was for a documentary, and each year when I judge multiple national Emmy Awards categories for directing and cinematography, whithin many of those genres, I specifically look for 35mm DOF and off-speed shooting as "frosting on the cake", even if the rest of the production was shot at 24fps and/or with medum to deep DOF. We see this issue differently.


Oh hell, I've no axe to grind either. If I did I wouldn't be doing it here. If anything I'm just trying to get you to admit that your reason for wanting 60fps scaled is the same as my reason for wanting 100fps 2K windowed - personal preference. The argument for the "need" for either is debateable (as I think we've adequately proved).

My reason isn't personal preference, although I'm a big fan of options. My reasons are professional and fiscal. The broader capability RED One has, the more effectively I can work in the wide range of cine-style and EFP style genres I work in - and that's both professionally rewarding and enhances my finances.

[Vladimir Eugene]

I love inteligent informative conversations- I believe you sum up this whole discussion.


If anything I'm just trying to get you to admit that your reason for wanting 60fps scaled is the same as my reason for wanting 100fps 2K windowed - personal preference. The argument for the "need" for either is debateable (as I think we've adequately proved).

Is it an assumption that 1080P scaled will look better than 2k windowed. If not that significant- wouldn't everyone benefit from higher frame rates. Since everything probably has to be transcoded anyways before delivery?

[Häakon]

I think this whole debate is moot if the camera can't record 1080p RGB @60fps on board.

Can we get an official word on if that's even an option?

Hi Gavin,

That spec has been a part of the camera for over a year. My last 30 posts have been an argument *for* keeping 1080p - not because it's an ENG/EFP legacy format - but because it's the only way to get 60p from the full sensor onboard! :-) If you had to use a RAID or some other system to get 60p in 1080, most of us would just be shooting 4K and be done with it.

Here's the red format options chart:

http://www.red.com/formatoptions.shtml

You can see that in 1080 mode, under the 35mm frame size, "Up to 60fps" is listed as the maximum framerate for REDCODE. You record REDCODE onboard, not out to the RAID (RECODE is compressed, the high-speed data port is not). The formats that are not supported onboard are listed in some of the other categories near the top, where there is a special designation for "RAW Data Port." For instance, you can see that when shooting 4K RAW, you can only do "Up to 30fps" with REDCODE (onboard), but you can do "Up to 60fps" through the high-speed port (external RAID). Some are insisting to keep 1080p around because it's a format that will fit in better with client deliverables, but the primary factor for me is that it's the only format which will allow offspeed shooting from the entire sensor - onboard. That alone is a significant reason to vote that 1080p stays no matter what.

I thought I had posted the subject to death, but I can see the issue still isn't clear. :-) Can we get a more detailed, less confusing format options page?

[Steve Gibby]

Gavin,

Here’s a few past RED Team references to 1080p/60 internal recording. Let’s all keep in mind that the RED One spec has been, and still is subject to change until it is verified as being locked down:



RED One Recording Options (10/17/06 Updated)

Internal / Local: (REDCODE to RED-FLASH or RED-DRIVE etc)

4K RAW @ 1 - 30fps

2K RAW @ 1 - 60fps

2K RGB @ 1 - 60fps

1080p @ 1 - 60fps (Generate 1080i if desired from a 1080p recording)

720p @ 1 - 120fps

External / Remote: (Uncompressed RAW to RAID via High Speed Data port)

4.5K RAW @ 1 - 60fps

2K RAW @ 1 - 120fps


Stuart English
DVX User
10/17/06
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=75097&page=2





Usual caveat, all specifications are subject to change, and will - guaranteed!

The chart for 1080p is accurate. The max record rate stated over SATA is 60fps.... What we haven't updated is 720p over SATA can go up to 120fps...

For 1080p at 120fps, your path is to capture 2K RAW at 120fps external to the camera over the high-speed data port, and extract 1080p from RAW using REDCINE.

Stuart English
10/17/06
DVX User
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=75097&page=3





Additional past RED Team, and current RED web site references that seem to point to 1080p/60 internal recording capability:

Rob Lohman post #23
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=405&page=3&highlight=1080p+RGB+60fps

Jarred post #38
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=55505&page=4

Stuart English Post # 36, paragraph 2
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=80544&page=3

The current RED web site camera specs page
http://www.red.com/techspecs.shtml



----------------------------


It would be nice if a RED Team member would update us on this, and confirm if scaled from 4k 1080p/60 RGB is possible to record in-camera, and secondly if 2k RC RAW @96fps and 1080p/60 RGB are both possible to have in the final camera spec.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Thanks Gibby.

Although that has 60fps 2k RGB listed as well. How are they managing that? That's way over 30MBs.

48 fps = 7MBs x 3 channels x 2 (fps) = 42 MBs. Does that mean we could optionally get a lighter compressed 4k at 24fps?

[Häakon]

Although, that has 60fps 2k RGB listed as well.
They've since axed 2K RGB. 2K/60p RAW still exists (and may potentially increase to 96fps or more), but it's windowed - not scaled - hence a lot of discussion on the topic.

The format options page shows us the most current information we know that's solidified about the camera until someone from RED updates it and/or us directly. Everything else (even old posts on the subject) is less reliable, because things have been known to change quite often.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Actually I want the reverse. Ease off on the compression if we only want to shoot 24fps. It seems like the "pipe" is larger than might have been let on earlier. For select VFX shots I would like the option to shoot at 40MBs.

[Vladimir Eugene]

Jim Jannard #34
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=80544&page=3
"If 35mm DOF is a concern, shoot S16mm lenses and a windowed 2k"

We can have it all with the 2k higher framerate

[Häakon]

Actually I want the reverse. Ease off on the compression if we only want to shoot 24fps. It seems like the "pipe" is larger than might have been let on earlier. For select VFX shots I would like the option to shoot at 40MBs.
Ah, sorry for the confusion... I see what you were meaning. Of course, that opens the door for "if we can still shoot at 27MBs, can we pump out more fps?" :tongue:

[Häakon]

Jim Jannard #34
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=80544&page=3
"If 35mm DOF is a concern, shoot S16mm lenses and a windowed 2k"

We can have it all with the 2k higher framerate
In that post, he means if you're concerned about working with 35mm DOF (as it's much more shallow and tricky to deal with than any 1/3" or 2/3" chip camera), shoot windowed 2K with S16mm lenses. Many of us WANT the shallow DOF, however, why is why 2K/windowed won't cut it.

[Vladimir Eugene]

In that post, he means if you're concerned about working with 35mm DOF (as it's much more shallow and tricky to deal with than any 1/3" or 2/3" chip camera), shoot windowed 2K with S16mm lenses. Many of us WANT the shallow DOF, however, why is why 2K/windowed won't cut it.

ok, i learn something everyday- or couple of posts these days

[Alexander Nikishin]

A benefit to 2K windowed dof in concerns to slow mo is that if your focus puller isn't the greatest at hitting his marks during the take he has a little leeway in windowed mode with the deeper S16mm dof.

[Häakon]

A benefit to 2K windowed dof in concerns to slow mo is that if your focus puller isn't the greatest at hitting his marks during the take he has a little leeway in windowed mode with the deeper S16mm dof.
Hehe, of course... but then again he has an even better chance of hitting the marks with a Varicam or F900! If you want 35mm DOF, you also have to learn to deal with it. That's just par for the course.

[Stephen Webb]

My last Emmy Award was for a documentary, and each year when I judge multiple national Emmy Awards categories for directing and cinematography, whithin many of those genres, I specifically look for 35mm DOF and off-speed shooting as "frosting on the cake", even if the rest of the production was shot at 24fps and/or with medum to deep DOF. We see this issue differently.

Ah but (just got back from pub so sorry for any slurred speach)...

If they're shooting 35mm DOF off-speed, then it's either on 35mm (in which case not EFP) or it's using an adaptor - the use of which is rare enough that I don't think it warrants the 1080p60 with 35mm DOF feature at the expense of 2K @ 100fps.

[Häakon]

If they're shooting 35mm DOF off-speed, then it's either on 35mm (in which case not EFP) or it's using an adaptor - the use of which is rare enough that I don't think it warrants the 1080p60 with 35mm DOF feature at the expense of 2K @ 100fps.

I think you're beginning to back yourself into a corner because the reality is that RED presents for the first time a true digital alternative to 35mm film and certainly there are countless productions (not intended for any kind of theatrical release) which normally shoot 35mm and require offspeed shooting (television programs and music videos are the big ones that come to mind).

Take a show like "24," which is shot on 35mm and is extremely cinematic in quality. It's shot on film - meaning it's not electronic field production - but what would you call it if it was shot in 4K RAW with RED instead? There certainly is the provision for this to happen (and most likely will), so is it all of a sudden EFP now because it's shot with a digital recorder instead of film? And if so, what are you going to do about offspeed shooting then? (Okay, perhaps 24 is a bad example because it's a "realtime" program and they don't do any offspeed shooting, :tongue: but surely you get the point.) There are a myriad of productions out there which would shoot this way and require higher speed shooting and are not "cinema" projects.

I don't think it's unreasonable, then, to want to get high speed shooting off of the full sensor when everything else you are shooting is with the full sensor to begin with. Are you willing to switch to 16mm image characteristics (and have to pay for/carry around extra glass) just to get your slow motion shots? It doesn't mean that the windowed format is useless, just that there are many of us who are interested in RED because of it's 35mm sensor capability. As of right now, the only way to get higher than 30p from the full sensor is by shooting 1080p. It's not just a legacy format, it's a necessity until we can cram more fps into the onboard 4K spec or a newer version of the camera comes along.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Haakon, with the change in image quality from 4K Redcode to 1080P, I find the 35mm dof of the 1080P RGB mode quite useless.

After seeing the 4K presentation time and time again, then seeing the downsampled 1080P version of Crossing (which still looks great, but again, close but no cigar) I don't see myself utilizing the 1080P recording mode too often if ever.

Now if you plan on delivering everything and projecting everything at 1080P (Blu Ray and home theater 1080P projection) then 1080P RGB and its 35mm dof in addition to 60fps sounds great.

I don't find much comfort in mixing and matching a 4K image with a 1080P image whereas 2K (with a S16 dof or not) is much more appealing.

If the dof in windowed mode is a problem, take a few steps back and pop on a longer lens to match. (Sure this won't work when limited by space)

[Häakon]

After seeing the 4K presentation time and time again, then seeing the downsampled 1080P version of Crossing (which still looks great, but again, close but no cigar) I don't see myself utilizing the 1080P recording mode too often if ever.
That's fine, but how are you going to deal with shooting slow motion in your "all 4K all the time" workflow? The reality is that 4K maxes out at 30p onboard, so for offspeed shooting you have to make a choice: do you shoot full-frame in 1080 or windowed in 2K? The difference in resolution between those formats is negligable, and I vote for keeping 1080 (even at the expense of even higher framerates in 2K), because at least then your footage is shot with the entire sensor and not a centered crop.

[Alexander Nikishin]

full-frame in 1080 or windowed in 2K? The difference in resolution between those formats is negligable.

That would make for a good test.

Let's see if the RED team can give us some insight on this..........

[Häakon]

That would make for a good test.

Let's see if the RED team can give us some insight on this..........
Would be nice. :)

I'm not saying that the images themselves would be indistinguishable - 2K has the advantage of being RAW, and that brings along with it its own benefits. From a purely resolution standpoint, however, we know they will be close. And many have stated that an oversampled image from the full 4K is going to retain more resolution at 1080 than the 2K will provide. But you're right, it's all speculation until we can see some footage.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

If you get to the point where 1080p is a delivery format you are not considering anymore for your productions, because it's not a "big enough picture", then I frankly think you won't consider shooting "onboard" for your slo-mo as an option, but rather shoot 4k uncompressed from the raw port and leave us poor mortals shooting tiny pictures in our scaled 1080p 60frs miserable world.

[Häakon]

If you get to the point where 1080p is a delivery format you are not considering anymore for your productions, because it's not a "big enough picture", then I frankly think you won't consider shooting "onboard" for your slo-mo as an option, but rather shoot 4k uncompressed from the raw port and leave us poor mortals shooting tiny pictures in our scaled 1080p 60frs miserable world.
That's a great point. :-) Perhaps we are getting a little lost in our grand dreams of 4K. However, remember that even if 1080p is the end goal, you'll still probably want to shoot 4K because of the resolution, RAW capabilities, and flexibility in post (cropping, etc.) - not to mention it preserves the best-quality master possible for the future. And the question is that if you are going to be doing any offspeed shooting - although both 1080 and 2K will give you enough resolution for a 1080p deliverable - how is it going to cut with the rest of your footage? Will the oversampled 1080 shots in RGB and not RAW make a noticable difference? Will the 16mm characteristics in the 2K-only shots be distracting? Which one will truly hold up better next to the 4K footage, which was oversampled in post and not in-camera? The truth is we have no idea until we get in the trenches and try it. But we can't eliminate 1080p until we have that information - which is why the issue of what formats stay and which ones don't needs to be resolved before the camera ships.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

People keep citing "flexibility" and I'm assuming you're refering to color flexibility, but I've been assuming 1080p RGB was still the full 12bit linear color space. Is that true?

[Häakon]

People keep citing "flexibility" and I'm assuming you're refering to color flexibility, but I've been assuming 1080p RGB was still the full 12bit linear color space. Is that true?
Yes, but apparently we get more dynamic range from the RAW image and have the ability to push it around further in post. It's similar to that of a workflow with a RAW dSLR image, although the REDCODE image has been compressed. I'm not so sure the RGB image is just going to "fall apart" compared to the RAW image like some would have you think, although Jim has really been pushing RAW lately and I don't know if that's inherently because the image really does look that much better or he'd just rather get rid of the legacy formats in the first place. Probably a bit of both.

One would think, however, that a 12-bit 4:4:4 1080p image that's been oversampled from 4K is going to look pretty darn stellar compared to what's currently out there - RAW or not.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Well if 2K windowed and 1080P are undistinguishable in quality, then the argument becomes what's more important: 36 extra fps, or a shallow dof?

On the topic of 35mm dof, there are workarounds...Move the camera further from the intended object and shoot with a tighter lens and have your AC carry a remarked piece of barrel tape taking into account the S16mm dof.

[Häakon]

Well if 2K windowed and 1080P are indistinguishable in quality, then the argument becomes what's more important: 36 extra fps, or a shallow dof?
Sure, and it becomes purely subjective at that point. But I don't see how one can make the motion to completely deny those who would prefer the 35mm option just because they would prefer the windowed. It's all about choices, right?

[Alexander Nikishin]

It is indeed all about choices.

It's truly a matter of personal preference at this point and I for one, coming from the short/feature length cinema end of the business find that an extra 36fps would be more than welcome in comparison to an RGB/35mm dof format.

To each his own I guess.....Until the God's of RED decide.

[Curran Giddens]

Look at RED in terms of evolution. If we throw some bacteria into boiling water, they will all die. But if we put them in a hotsprings where one side is cool and the other side boiling then some of them will evolve over time to tolerate more and more heat. 4K is for me boiling water, we want to be there but we need to evolve into it. I think that could happen very fast, like in two years. But evolution doesn't occur without a gradient, the slope of the beach we crawled up.

I like how you used the evolution of extremophiles as an analogy for Red 4k. Interesting....

[Alexander Nikishin]

Wow ibloom, quite off the deep end there. :blink:

[David Battistella]

We fully acknowledge the importance of ENG uses of RED ONE. We just want to make sure we deliver what is needed, not just what is asked for.

This is a healthy discussion that we are watching closely.

Jim

Jim,

I agree that you have included much in the camera to satisfy some ENG/EFP requirements, but I beleive that a traditional ENG, EFP DP who has shot mostly Betacam, HDCAM or Panny products may not warm to RED as quickly as the film set. They will have to get used to not having many of the onboard features they are used to in these camera's.

ND, for example will not be a twirl of a dial, white balance will not be quite the same and "most" of these camera's come with a fixed zoom lens, zebra's in the viewfinder, etc. All of these things are handled differently with the RED camera. For anyone who has never worked with film, it will be an eye opener. You've made that pretty clear.

So if we are talking about what is needed, in this sea of digital technology, it is preciscley what your team set out to do: create a digital cinema camera.

It would be great if what you were proposing was a plug and play type camera like many sony and panny products AND a digital cinema camera that replaces film, but I think that this whole thing comes down to your vision for RED and not just the ability to shoot many formats, especially if the post workflows are in place to handle 4K REDCODE out of the gate.

Make this first release the best camera it can be. I mean, if we compare this digital camera to "any" other video camera that shoots speed, you have already broken that barrier by either 36fps (2k@96) or 60fps (120fps@720P). How can we be arguing over how great the inventions is when it is already surpassing any digital imaging device the records moving pictures?

A tricked out RED is still about 1/3rd the price of what a Betacam package was ten years ago, which means 1/3rd LESS time to replace your investment and MUCH less risk than in the past.

What is needed not the Swiss Army knife camera but the camera you have created, dedicated to capturing the best digital moving images for now and into the future.

Thanks for listening and monitoring this, it shows great respect for your future customers and their craft.

David

[Steve Gibby]

ND, for example will not be a twirl of a dial, white balance will not be quite the same and "most" of these camera's come with a fixed zoom lens, zebra's in the viewfinder, etc. All of these things are handled differently with the RED camera. For anyone who has never worked with film, it will be an eye opener. You've made that pretty clear.

ND on RED One is as easy as dropping NDs into a matte box, something cine shooters are used to, or screwing NDs onto a lens, something DSLR shooters are used to. No rocket science involved there for TV/video shooters to transition to. White balance is simple and straightforward in RED: baked in RGB modes like TV/video cameras, and adjustable in post with RAW, something DSLR shooters are already used to. It's film shooters that aren't used to white balance. Most of what cameras have a fixed zoom lens? 1/3" cameras? Most pro TV/video shooters shoot on 2/3" camera systems that have detachable lenses that are shot mostly in manual modes. RED has zebras in the viewfinder just like TV/video cameras. RED also has histograms just like DSLRs have. RED also has a focus assist function like many TV/video cameras have. RED One's WB, zebra, histogram, and focus assist functions are viewable in the periphery of RED One's EVF and LCD - just like on TV/video cameras. Film cameras don't have zebras, histograms, or focus assist functions, so I'd say film guys have a lot to learn when adopting RED One - electronic technology. RED One's technology pedigree is most like a DSLR, relatively similar to a TV/video camera, and least like a film camera - except in some lenses used. What Jim was referring to in the learning curve for RED One was 35mm DOF, but IMO the rest of the electronic technology of RED One will be more of a challenge to learn for a mechanical workflow film-background only guy than a TV/Video and/or DSLR guy. DSLR guys are also used to working with 35mm DOF so that's no surprise to them in transitioning to RED One.



So if we are talking about what is needed, in this sea of digital technology, it is preciscley what your team set out to do: create a digital cinema camera.

Actually by their own words from the very beginning they set out to create a D-cinema camera that was also intended for extensive EFP work. Read my post #72 on this thread same thread for some background and links to info and verification of that. Take it to the bank from someone (Me) who has been on the RED scene from day one - I could post pages of links to prove my statement on that. Now if RED is changing their position at the very end of the development of RED One, that's their prerogative, but if you analyze Jim’s thread-opening post, he did the opposite, he re-affirmed RED’s commitment to the EFP (& ENG) capabilities of RED One.



What is needed not the Swiss Army knife camera but the camera you have created

Ah…which is and was always planned as a Swiss Army Knife of a camera. In fact, that’s an analogy I used, and Jim agreed with in my published interview with him (3/06) that I posted the link to in my Post #72 of this thread. Read that interview David, and I think you’ll get the true flick on what RED was planned as in the beginning, and keep in mind that various RED Team members have reaffirmed RED One’s additional EFP utility throughout the 20 month development cycle of RED One.


Side note
I was an invited attendee to the very first RED One camera specification meeting at Oakley headquarters in December 2005. I’m under NDA for what I submitted to that meeting, but my heavy-EFP professional background is published on my web site, and I can tell you that I submitted suggestions for RED One that were both cine and EFP oriented, as you could easily guess. BTW, that meeting was an incredible think tank…one of the highlights of my 30-year professional career. It was a total rush for sure...and I really enjoyed the experience!

I respect the heck out of RED Team…all of them…for the endless hours of work they’ve put into RED One, the lenses, and accessories. IMO they’ve accomplished the impossible…especially in such a short period of time.

[Proteus]

I agree with Gibby, Haakon and others about the importance of 1080p and 60 fps from full sensor.

If the end product is 1080p with slo-mo, 1080p60 (as in my case) , or simply 1080 @ 50i/60i with smooth motion, there is one more advantage for scaled (full sensor) use:
It will be a lot better for green screen work since each individual pixel will include all the color information. This -of course, provided that the artifacts from REDCODE compression will be minimal. Also, I believe that scaled 1080p will prove to be sharper and much less noisy than 2k windowed.

My own priorities and preferences are:

-60p
-Full sensor
-4k
-1080p

EDIT: I just read Jannard's response, so personally I would be happy with 2K @ 60 scaled instead of 1080.

[Jannard]

My own priorities and preferences are:

-60p
-Full sensor
-4k
-1080p

Would you settle for:

60P, Full sensor
-4K
-2K

Jim

[Alexander Nikishin]

Ahh I love it.

[Proteus]

Would you settle for:

60P, Full sensor
-4K
-2K

Jim

Yes, of course!!!
(we wrote at the same time)

[Steve Gibby]

A few minutes ago Jim Jannard started another thread with a verification that RED One CAN do 2k scaled RAW @60fps to CF or RED Drive. Yes, that's not a mis-print...2k scaled RAW @60fps in camera is now possible. Wow...that adds a whole different light to the scaled RGB 1080p/60 requests for sure.

Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3538

The possibilities just got a lot better for scaled full sensor in camera @60fps

EDIT: Just saw Jim's post that beat mine...I'm a slow typist!

[Rogelio Salinas]

Would you settle for:

60P, Full sensor
-4K
-2K

Jim

35mm sensor with 60P for both 4K and 2K on a CF or Red Drive. Amazing! If 1080P and 720P were dropped completely would it be possible to get 4K 60P and 2K 100P, but I believe that just being able to get 60P on 4K would be the answer to many of our prayers. What the heck just drop 2K altogether and just allow 4K 100fps. With Redcine, we can always downrez to 2K, 1080P, and 720P. Keep the good news coming Jim.

[Gregory Leno]

Would you settle for:

60P, Full sensor
-4K
-2K

Jim

Are both of those recording on the RED drive and CF at 60p?

[Jannard]

I am now double-checking myself after a post on the other thread. Hold that thought.

Jim

[David Battistella]

ND on RED One is as easy as dropping NDs into a matte box, something cine shooters are used to, or screwing NDs onto a lens, something DSLR shooters are used to. No rocket science involved there for TV/video shooters to transition to. White balance is simple and straightforward in RED: baked in RGB modes like TV/video cameras, and adjustable in post with RAW, something DSLR shooters are already used to. It's film shooters that aren't used to white balance. Most of what cameras have a fixed zoom lens? 1/3" cameras? Most pro TV/video shooters shoot on 2/3" camera systems that have detachable lenses that are shot mostly in manual modes. RED has zebras in the viewfinder just like TV/video cameras. RED also has histograms just like DSLRs have. RED also has a focus assist function like many TV/video cameras have. RED One's WB, zebra, histogram, and focus assist functions are viewable in the periphery of RED One's EVF and LCD - just like on TV/video cameras. Film cameras don't have zebras, histograms, or focus assist functions, so I'd say film guys have a lot to learn when adopting RED One - electronic technology. RED One's technology pedigree is most like a DSLR, relatively similar to a TV/video camera, and least like a film camera - except in some lenses used. What Jim was referring to in the learning curve for RED One was 35mm DOF, but IMO the rest of the electronic technology of RED One will be more of a challenge to learn for a mechanical workflow film-background only guy than a TV/Video and/or DSLR guy. DSLR guys are also used to working with 35mm DOF so that's no surprise to them in transitioning to RED One.




Actually by their own words from the very beginning they set out to create a D-cinema camera that was also intended for extensive EFP work. Read my post #72 on this thread same thread for some background and links to info and verification of that. Take it to the bank from someone (Me) who has been on the RED scene from day one - I could post pages of links to prove my statement on that. Now if RED is changing their position at the very end of the development of RED One, that's their prerogative, but if you analyze Jim’s thread-opening post, he did the opposite, he re-affirmed RED’s commitment to the EFP (& ENG) capabilities of RED One.




Ah…which is and was always planned as a Swiss Army Knife of a camera. In fact, that’s an analogy I used, and Jim agreed with in my published interview with him (3/06) that I posted the link to in my Post #72 of this thread. Read that interview David, and I think you’ll get the true flick on what RED was planned as in the beginning, and keep in mind that various RED Team members have reaffirmed RED One’s additional EFP utility throughout the 20 month development cycle of RED One.


Side note
I was an invited attendee to the very first RED One camera specification meeting at Oakley headquarters in December 2005. I’m under NDA for what I submitted to that meeting, but my heavy-EFP professional background is published on my web site, and I can tell you that I submitted suggestions for RED One that were both cine and EFP oriented, as you could easily guess. BTW, that meeting was an incredible think tank…one of the highlights of my 30-year professional career. It was a total rush for sure...and I really enjoyed the experience!

I respect the heck out of RED Team…all of them…for the endless hours of work they’ve put into RED One, the lenses, and accessories. IMO they’ve accomplished the impossible…especially in such a short period of time.

Gibby,

I appreciate your insights and I was not intending to defame ENG or EFP DP's, I was talking more about a wide majority who are less accustomed to film style workflows with the camera.

There is no doubt that you are at the top of your game and that does not mean you can be compared to the scores of TV/ENG , news crew style shooters out there. (they are less likely to have a matte box with rods on the camera). They may not even account for one RED purchase.

I have been all over the place on this issue as I have read through these posts for days. I'm not positive that 1080P in camera is going to be a huge benifit if the 4K 2K modes with REDCINE are or do become accepted delivery.

It's like Stuarts post listing the improvements since the initial NAB announcement. All of a sudden 4K was available. Things can and do change with this project and Jim obviously thought this an important enough possibility to put out there for opinions.

I think the jist of my post is that if the camera record modes are beyond recording HD now then why not make that next advancement.

When RED is release people will begin to comprehend that RED is RED, the way HDCAM is HDCAM and the way DVCPRO HD is DVCPROHD, P2 is P2. Everyone has adjusted to all of these shooting models and will continue to.

David

[Stephen Webb]

SO...

Gibby, it seems you can have your scaled from the full sensor @ 60 fps. It's in 2K not 1080p, don't know yet if that's RGB or RAW 'till Graeme returns to the land of the (semi) conscious.

I get my 100fps.

Does this now solve everything??? Please?

[Emanuel A.]

Yup .

[Alexander Nikishin]

Hopefully, I respect Gibby whole heartedly and hope that he gets all he wishes for.

[Michael Brennan]

As long as scaling is based on sampling all the pixels rather than using alternative lines, 2k is a reasonable option to avoid transcoding time.

But I'm wondering if deleting 1080p from recording option will also give rise to deleting a full spec 1080 HDSDI output from the camera that could have been used for many HD applications?
Getting HDSDI to work at 24, 25 and 30p without glitches is no mean feat!


BUT without a fully working HDSDI output the camera may not penetrate EFP market as well or as quickly and its use for live work will not be possible.
(I know a few OB companies in Europe with their eyes on RED both for live remote camera and also for the 720 120fps feature)


Also many folks are happy with a tape being delivered that they can pop into their in house existing edit suite. For instance on Thursday I was shooting HD air to air of the new A380 airbus. Client wanted the stuff straight away in a form that would initially drop into their existing workflow.. DV!


If I had a RED in a aerial gimbal I'd be recording on HD tape or even DV tape simultanously if client wanted to walk away from the shoot with something they can use themselves immediatley.

As an aside we had a backup HD recorder and DV on the job. For some jobs simultaneous dual recording would be desirable with RED especially if the HDSDI option is a non starter.


Surprisingly not every post house or production team can deal with a firewire drive with QT files be it DV HD or 2K resolution.

Over the last few days I've failed to convince a US company making a HD movie to take 5x10 second HD stock footage shots on a hard drive.
No they want D5 which is more expensive and a (slight) drop in quality!


As much as we are enamoured with RED not everyone will want to join the revolution even when we think it is good for them!



Mike Brennan

[Steve Gibby]

SO...

Gibby, it seems you can have your scaled from the full sensor @ 60 fps. It's in 2K not 1080p, don't know yet if that's RGB or RAW 'till Graeme returns to the land of the (semi) conscious.

I get my 100fps.

Does this now solve everything??? Please?

Not yet. RED still hasn't verified that 2k RC RAW scaled is possible. If/when Graeme verifies that I'll analyze the possibilities and draw some conclusions. Beyond that, the post work flow issues were best summarized by Anders Holck here:



"Well, Redcode as a blessed FCP format was announced at NAB.
In that case you would not need to convert anything.

When Editing, the only realtime process 1080P RGB needs is decompression and RGB>YUV conversion.
4k RAW would need decompression, demosaic, LUT/whitebalance, 4k > 1080p scale etc.

Unless they optimize the crap out of it, there is a big chance 1080p would be much smoother, and it would be possible to have full res realtime output over a AJA or blackmagic card, I wonder if that is within reach with the RAW workflow.

I don't think anything has been mentioned on the quality of the Redquick proxies yet, only the end resolution.

Again, it all depend on the speed of the 4k RAW workflow. If it's fast enough, only 35mm format high framerate recording would suffer from the removal of the RGB options."

Anders Holck
8/4/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3548


----------------------


When we have answers from RED on the possibility of 2k RC RAW scaled, and all of these post workflow issues that Anders nicely summarized, then I'll analyze all the workflow considerations and draw some conclusions accordingly.

[Mr. Paul White]

the post work flow issues were best summarized by Anders Holck here:



"Well, Redcode as a blessed FCP format was announced at NAB.
In that case you would not need to convert anything.

When Editing, the only realtime process 1080P RGB needs is decompression and RGB>YUV conversion.
4k RAW would need decompression, demosaic, LUT/whitebalance, 4k > 1080p scale etc.

Unless they optimize the crap out of it, there is a big chance 1080p would be much smoother, and it would be possible to have full res realtime output over a AJA or blackmagic card, I wonder if that is within reach with the RAW workflow.

I don't think anything has been mentioned on the quality of the Redquick proxies yet, only the end resolution.

Again, it all depend on the speed of the 4k RAW workflow. If it's fast enough, only 35mm format high framerate recording would suffer from the removal of the RGB options."

Anders Holck
8/4/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3548



This summary on the shooting options though not directly towards to post, is also carefully prepared:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3497

[Steve Gibby]

This summary on the shooting options though not directly towards to post, is also carefully prepared:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3497

Very true. Stephen did a nice job of summarizing the acquisition issues. I complimented him on his summary in a previous post of mine.

We're all professionals here who are interested in RED and it's capabilities. It's not surprising that opinions differ because people differ and choose a variety of genres to work in. I work in the film, TV, video, and still photography industries, so my interests and skill sets are broad, thus my deep interest in keeping RED One as capable and flexible as possible.

[Curran Giddens]

As long as scaling is based on sampling all the pixels rather than using alternative lines, 2k is a reasonable option to avoid transcoding time.

But I'm wondering if deleting 1080p from recording option will also give rise to deleting a full spec 1080 HDSDI output from the camera that could have been used for many HD applications?
Getting HDSDI to work at 24, 25 and 30p without glitches is no mean feat!


BUT without a fully working HDSDI output the camera may not penetrate EFP market as well or as quickly and its use for live work will not be possible.
(I know a few OB companies in Europe with their eyes on RED both for live remote camera and also for the 720 120fps feature)


Also many folks are happy with a tape being delivered that they can pop into their in house existing edit suite. For instance on Thursday I was shooting HD air to air of the new A380 airbus. Client wanted the stuff straight away in a form that would initially drop into their existing workflow.. DV!


If I had a RED in a aerial gimbal I'd be recording on HD tape or even DV tape simultanously if client wanted to walk away from the shoot with something they can use themselves immediatley.

As an aside we had a backup HD recorder and DV on the job. For some jobs simultaneous dual recording would be desirable with RED especially if the HDSDI option is a non starter.


Surprisingly not every post house or production team can deal with a firewire drive with QT files be it DV HD or 2K resolution.

Over the last few days I've failed to convince a US company making a HD movie to take 5x10 second HD stock footage shots on a hard drive.
No they want D5 which is more expensive and a (slight) drop in quality!


As much as we are enamoured with RED not everyone will want to join the revolution even when we think it is good for them!



Mike Brennan



Delivering QT files on a firewire drive is actually saving a step for the post house or production team. They are most likely going to edit it on a computer anyway.... No need to capture from tape!

They could also make their own tape from those QT files themselves if they had to. The HDSDI capture cards have come way down in price, but those decks are still way too expensive. I'm glad I won't have to deal with any decks or tapes.

[Michael Brennan]

Delivering QT files on a firewire drive is actually saving a step for the post house or production team. They are most likely going to edit it on a computer anyway.... No need to capture from tape!

They could also make their own tape from those QT files themselves if they had to. The HDSDI capture cards have come way down in price, but those decks are still way too expensive. I'm glad I won't have to deal with any decks or tapes.

Absolutely hard drives save time and money IF the edit suite know what we are talking about. Many edit suites are run in house by production companies and corporate clients without much engineering support.
Some will want to continue to use tape for the $$$ return.

Producers are confused about HD and make crap decisons about formats and frame rates, the same will apply to RED deliverables.


There is a big assumpton that dropping hard drives into any edit will be accepted. It will take time.



Mike Brennan

[Evan Owen]

I've found a few references to 2k RAW scaled recently (including a couple in this thread). Is this coming to the spec?

(from this thread (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3550)):


Here is the list for today:

4K REDCODE RAW @ 1-60 fps to RAW Port
4K REDCODE RAW @ 1-24 fps to Compact Flash or RED Drive

2K REDCODE RAW scaled @ 1-60 fps to Compact Flash or RED Drive (Under development)
2K REDCODE RAW cropped @ 1-100 fps to Compact Flash or RED Drive

Does this mean 2K REDCODE RAW scaled from the full 35mm sensor area is close to becoming possible? The answer I've heard historically has been that it wasn't, even theoretically. If this is true, it's going to be huge for me. I've searched the forum and can't find any further information. Anyone from RED want to confirm this?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Does this mean 2K REDCODE RAW scaled from the full 35mm sensor area is close to becoming possible? The answer I've heard historically has been that it wasn't, even theoretically. If this is true, it's going to be huge for me. I've searched the forum and can't find any further information. Anyone from RED want to confirm this?

It looks like it might be possible now. We haven't heard anything official just yet, but scaled RAW is now "UNDER DEVELOPMENT". So we're all sitting here hoping for the best and praying that all of Graeme's best neurons and synapses fire in unison.