Doubts on swapping mounts... [related to Birger's mount]

[Emanuel A.]

Same than RED method? Or is it a different one?

Is it possible to get it on production field? On set?

How long does it take?

Does it require collimation? After changing mounts in order to return back to PL mount?

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Emanuel,

The Berger mount will have to be accurately collimated if you use a zoom lens. (the lens will also need to be collimated). For eye focus only with primes you can 'get away' with small errors assuming you can reach infinity.

Stephen

[Gordon Prince]

One-time operation?

[Mr. Paul White]

One-time operation?Interesting doubt..

[Mr. Paul White]

Someone has asked something more:


Sorry if this has already been asked, but how easy is the swap between the birger lens mount and pl mount and how long does it typcially take to do?

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=64904#post64904

[Shawn Nelson]

What does 'collimated' mean and how do you do it?

[Poi Boy]

The mount changing questions have been around for many threads; unfortunately the red team has not given us any information and we will have to wait and see. Big bummer.
-A

[Stephen Williams]

What does 'collimated' mean and how do you do it?

Hi Shawn,

With a film camera it's fairly simply as only a depth gauge & a flat piece of steel are required to collimate the mount. Just slightly adjusting the tightness of the screws can be enough to correct small errors.
With Red an autocollimator will tell you if its approximately correct, what it won't tell you is that the mount is out by say 5 microns at the top 8 microns right/left & 12 microns at the bottom. There will be lots of trial and error for people without the correct tools.

Instructions to build an autocollimator http://www.geocities.com/leafshooter/collimator.htm

Stephen

[Mr. Paul White]

How much can it cost? Where can I find one?

Easy operation?

[PaulClements]

I find the whole mount changing problem mind boggling. Why some kind of locking mechanism can't be produced that is exact and precise is very very odd. We can make a sensor the size of the tip of your finger that has 10 million pixels on it but we can't make something that is easily swappable without the need for collimation, weird.

[Stephen Williams]

I find the whole mount changing problem mind boggling. Why some kind of locking mechanism can't be produced that is exact and precise is very very odd. We can make a sensor the size of the tip of your finger that has 10 million pixels on it but we can't make something that is easily swappable without the need for collimation, weird.

Hi Paul,

Not really, just depends how you define 'exact & precise'. The lens mount has to be parallel with the sensor, so you already have 2 variables to start with.If the widest lens people used was a 25mm @ f 5.6 you would not have to worry so much.

Stephen

[Don King]

How much can it cost? Where can I find one?

Easy operation?

Here are good questions asking your answer Mr. Williams.

[chuck colburn]

Hi Paul,

Not really, just depends how you define 'exact & precise'. The lens mount has to be parallel with the sensor, so you already have 2 variables to start with.If the widest lens people used was a 25mm @ f 5.6 you would not have to worry so much.

Stephen

Hello Stephen,

You can check for parallelism by having an optical flat (window) that sits in the lens seat portion of the lens mount. When the parallel rays of the auto collimator bounce back to the eyepiece of the collimator the two images of the sensor and the optical flat should over lay each other. This is a very sensitive and revealing test as even a small error in parallelism shows of very quickly.

Chuck

[Stephen Williams]

Here are good questions asking your answer Mr. Williams.

Hi Don,

This website was not working earlier today so I could not answer
http://www.chamblesscineequip.com/catalog/richter_kollimator.htm

A guy used to make a pocket one that he sold on Ebay for $175, he retired before I managed to by one.

I would recommend asking the tech at your local rental house to change the mounts for you, it should be a 15 minute job so should not be expensive, if you plan to rent PL mounted lenses then they will probably do it free.

If you are using still camera lenses they will also need to be collimated, this will probably take 30-60 minutes (per lens) the first time as the mount may need to be ground down, adding shims is quicker! (15 minutes) Lenses should be checked on a regular basis, (30 seconds to check) usually they will only need adjusting after dropping or rough use.

Stephen

[Emanuel A.]

Thanks once again for your help, Stephen. BTW, can we handle the task by ourselves after an initial learning?

Is it easy to get it alone later?

Take care,
Emanuel

[Stephen Williams]

Thanks once again for your help, Stephen. BTW, can we handle the task by ourselves after an initial learning?

Is it easy to get it alone later?

Take care,
Emanuel

Hi Emanuel,

Testing is easy, adjusting more complex but possible. Not worth learning if you live near a friendly tech!

Stephen

[Emanuel & Co]

Hello Mr. Williams,


I believe Emanuel has in mind to buy one of these devices. Is it necessary any further accessory beyond the autocollimator?


Why auto? Any advantage?


Cris

[Shawn Nelson]

Stephen, that's a good description of how to do it, but what is it (what problem are you fixing?) and why do you need to do it?

[Stephen Williams]

Stephen, that's a good description of how to do it, but what is it (what problem are you fixing?) and why do you need to do it?

Hi Shawn,

PL lenses focus the image @52.00mm from the PL Mount (Flange Focal Distance), unlike swapable video lenses there is no back focus adjustment. It is therefore vital that:-
1) The mount is exactly 52.00mm (film cameras may set to 51.975 +/- 0.005 so that the focus falls inside the film. Each manufacture will quote a FFD for a specific camera) The exact distance for Red is at this time not known.
2) The lens must focus at @ 52.00mm when set to infinity.

When cameras & lenses are so adjusted any camera & any lens combination can be used. Therefore you can rent a lens and be sure that the focus points marked on the lens will be correct when used with your camera.

Stephen

[Martin Drew]

This issue has been discussed loads in the past, both here and before on dvxuser. It should be noted the no one from Red has chimed in on any of these discussions, that usually means that they are not ready to talk about it... Interesting. With that in mind at this stage I think it might be better to wait for the LART results rather than guess what is required when swapping mounts on the RedOne.

M

[Matt Uhry]

Hey Frequent Swappers.

It's going to depend a bit on what lenses you are using and how you are using them, but generally I would not worry so much about flange focal distance. Unlike a film camera if you are having a problem holding focus over a zoom range or lenses are not focusing at the expected distances you will see the results immediatly on the monitor. It will be simple to check this after swapping mounts. Put on your widest-fastest-sharpest lens, shoot a wall wide open with 5 focus targerts equidistant from the camera, does the lens seem to be in best focus on the center target at the distance indicated on the scale?. Look at a frame in 4k - is the center sharp? the corners? If you are on a zoom, zoom in, still looks good ? You're golden! now practice your awards show speech.

The rear of Lens / PL mount areas are subject to many times more wear and abuse than the nice pristine machined surfaces of the sub mount and the surface on front of the camera body. Keeping the mount area and rear of the lens free from dust and nicks should be your priority. It it's set right at the factory and you don't knock it around it should maintain tolerances for the life of the camera.

For still camera mount lenses, really don't worry. Compared to a PL mount The twist lock bayonet mounts found on Nikons and Canon EOS is inherently imprecise, lenses are not very well marked and most zooms don't reliably hold focus over the range anyway. If you are using still lenses you are probably using eye focus more than taped distances. If you are using a birger mount.... we'll find out what works best.

On film cameras there is lots that can go wrong, the spinning mirror shutter / ground glass / mount and filmplane, all had to be aligned to give reliable results. On some cameras due to sound issues there was a lack of a solid metal to metal mechanical link between all these things. Things could look perfect in the viewfinder and be NG on the film. None of this applies to the Red which has only a mount and a sensor connected by ultra burly metal.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Mark B.]

SLR users swap out lenses all the time without worrying about the precisions involved. There's slop enough that micrometers shouldn't matter too much, unless you're dead set on perfection, in which case you should only shoot footage from a vibration isolated table in a lab.

[Stephen Williams]

SLR users swap out lenses all the time without worrying about the precisions involved. There's slop enough that micrometers shouldn't matter too much, unless you're dead set on perfection, in which case you should only shoot footage from a vibration isolated table in a lab.

Hi,

SLR users have the advantage of focusing by eye, focusing on a motion picture camera is usually carried out by an assistant who is not looking through the camera.

Stephen

[Gordon Prince]

You're forgetting the Graeme's magic focus assist, perhaps?

[Stephen Williams]

,You're forgetting the Graeme's magic focus assist, perhaps?

Hi Gordon,

As I have not seen it in action I don't know how it will work in practice, keeping focus on an actor's eyes as he turns his head, if the focus goes from 1 eye to both without the nose becoming the point of focus it will indeed be 'magic'.

Stephen

[Gordon Prince]

However, with the birger's mount, why bother with collimation or swapping mount problems? Is it automatic right? Yet, there are no marks on the lenses or can I be wrong?

[Stephen Williams]

However, with the birger's mount, why bother with collimation or swapping mount problems? Is it automatic right? Yet, there are no marks on the lenses or can I be wrong?

Hi,

If the mount is not collimated you may not be able to focus at infinity. As I have not seen a birger mount I don't know. Is birger mount offering auto focus like a DSLR? if it does, assuming the lens can focus at infinity it should work. If the mount is not flat then focus will not be parallel to the sensor, possibly not an issue just a cool effect.

Stephen

[Martin Drew]

Hi Gordon/Stephen

The Birger mount won't offer autofocus, at least not to start with.

M

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Gordon/Stephen

The Birger mount won't offer autofocus, at least not to start with.

M

Hi Martin,

That's what I thought so collimation is an issue IMHO.

Stephen

[Gordon Prince]

Hi Gordon/Stephen

The Birger mount won't offer autofocus, at least not to start with.

M

But it does offer programmable focus marks. That's what I meant.

So why collimation?

Yet according the most recent thread currently open, how is it possible to collimate on the Red sensor?

[Stephen Williams]

But it does offer programmable focus marks. That's what I meant.

So why collimation?

Yet according the most recent thread currently open, how is it possible to collimate on the Red sensor?

Hi Gordon,

Wait & see, it may work for you without collimation.

There will be some trial & error involved in getting the exact FFD, Cine techs who have done this 1000's of times will get a spot on result fairly quickly due to experience. If you have a lens that is known to be 'perfectly collimated' see where infinity focuses, then calculate the error & correct.

Stephen

[Gordon Prince]

How? Following your formula posted before?

[Stephen Williams]

How? Following your formula posted before?

Hi Gordon,

Thats the theory, the problem is that the lens may focus infinity @ 62 feet but there is no accurate mark on the lens for 62 feet, thats the trial & error bit!

Stephen

[Mr. Paul White]

What formula?

[Stephen Williams]

What formula?

(d = f squared divided by a-f ) will give you the distance the lens is out of the mount when the lens is focused at infinity. d = displacement of lens out of mount at infinity. f = focal length of lens. a = distance of sharp focused object. You can use inches or metric measures. Note, d = 0 when a = infinity. Example: for a 50 mm lens (2 inch) set to infinity but is focusing at 10 feet. 2" squared/ 10x12"-2 =4/120"-2"=4/118"=.034" so the lens mount is .034" too far out of the mount. Shorten the mount by .034". Better yet, try .030 and check again

Stephen

[Gordon Prince]

By the way, how can we short the mount? Or the reverse?

[Stephen Williams]

By the way, how can we short the mount? Or the reverse?

Hi Gordon,

You grind it down if it's oversize & use shims if its under size.

Stephen

[Don King]

Hi Gordon,

You grind it down if it's oversize & use shims if its under size.

StephenCan you give us a sketch? Like this one, for example:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=67324&postcount=5

[Stephen Williams]

Can you give us a sketch? Like this one, for example:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=67324&postcount=5

Hi Don,

I will photograph the back of 1 of my Fries Mitchell mounts & some shims next week.

Precision grinding it the most accurate way of making something smaller (and totally flat), its like using a file or 'wet & dry sandpaper' just way more accurate. A milling machine is often used as final accuracy can be achieved with shims.

Shims are very fine sheets of plastic or metal. (like sheets of paper, some much thinner than paper others thicker. The final precision required is about 1/10 of the thickness of a human hair. Dirt & dust are clearly an issue & how tight the screws are holding the mount.

Stephen

[Shawn Nelson]

Grinding and shims? Gosh, I would expect both the Red PL mount and the Birger mount to be perfect from the factory, otherwise I'd ship them back and complain about QC!

[Evin Grant]

What about when you switch them, how are YOU going to get them accurate?

[Dexter Gregoire]

I'm not worried about anything. Fear is of the Enemy!

I'm not grinding or shimming anything.

I can walk into a lens store, buy a Canon lens, put it on my 12MP Camera and take beautiful pictures without grinding or collimating anything.

I will concern myself with telling a good story instead of worrying about grinding and collimating.

Birger Engineering has been recognized by NASA for their work and for Over two years been developing smart controllers which allows the full control of Canon EF-mount lenses without requiring the use of a Canon EOS camera body. I will trust him.

After-all, the story even told with a DV camera will sell.

[Shawn Nelson]

What about when you switch them, how are YOU going to get them accurate?

I don't know Evin, this thread and the collimation one concerns me, it really does. How should I get them accurate without instantly having years of AC experience and a $3500 collimator?

[Stephen Williams]

What about when you switch them, how are YOU going to get them accurate?

Hi Evin,

That has always been my point, depending where the shims are placed, if everything is clean you might get lucky. Avoid switching mounts would be my advice.

Hi Shawn,

How would you know if they were out by 5 microns? I think you underestimate how difficult working to those tolerances is, if every piece had to be interchangeable then everything would have to be made to +/- 2.5 microns.

Stephen

EDIT The PL fitted mount should be correctly set at the factory. Mounts are usually made short, it's far easier to shim than grind. Still camera lenses often need grinding..

[Stephen Williams]

[QUOTE=Don King;69317]Can you give us a sketch? Like this one, for example:
[QUOTE]

Hi Don,

Here is a Panavision mount & some shims

[chuck colburn]

[QUOTE=Don King;69317]Can you give us a sketch? Like this one, for example:
[QUOTE]

Hi Don,

Here is a Panavision mount & some shims

Ohhh Stephen!

What have you done. You didn't actualy take the mount off your camera body... did you? Now it will never be right again.

Chuck

[Stephen Williams]

[QUOTE=Stephen Williams;69914][QUOTE=Don King;69317]Can you give us a sketch? Like this one, for example:


Ohhh Stephen!

What have you done. You didn't actualy take the mount off your camera body... did you? Now it will never be right again.

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

I have 3 mounts for the camera, Nikon, PV & PL. The PL was set up by David Stump or his tech Ken Stone, the accuracy is unbelievable, its staying put for now!

Stephen

[chuck colburn]

Stephen

Only kidding.

Good to know an opical tech. though! lol

Chuck

[tj williams]

And if you think changing mounts is going to be fun wait until you see "Red Rack over" this interesting technique duplicates the classic Mitchell camera usage. Where it will be necessary to move the body out of alignment with the lens in order to aim it by looking directly through the lens with a special eyepiece which is pressed against the back of the lens. Remember the Kinetta was going to offer a hand crank mode. How retro we gotta be so this is a problem????

Several things RED might actually do:
1. duplicate the interchangeable lens systm on the Eclair cameras which requires no shimming
2. machine the mounts and bodies so accurately there is no shimming needed
3 build shims so that once a mount was shimmed for a particular body it would always be correctly adjusted for that body.

Folks it's a new century lets not judge this based on putting a PL mount on a 2C for gawhsdd sakeeee...

[Emanuel A.]

I don't know Evin, this thread and the collimation one concerns me, it really does. How should I get them accurate without instantly having years of AC experience and a $3500 collimator?It does seem I have launched worries over you... :) But believe me you're not the only one here. The most part of the future RED users are fairly concerned even if silent sometimes. My PM box can testify it!

[Evin Grant]

I don't know Evin, this thread and the collimation one concerns me, it really does. How should I get them accurate without instantly having years of AC experience and a $3500 collimator?

The good news is that you can check immediately if your mount is good by shooting a second of footage at a few marked and taped distances (Focus chart preferably) as well as a shot as close to infinity as you can find, and then open them in Red cine off a CF card and look at the 4K still. It's not a perfect solution but it should tell you if your really out.

[Matt Uhry]

Hi Guys, Flange focal distance is fun to talk about and all but this is getting a little overblown.

1. It's likely that the mount will stay accurate. Precision ground Metal to Metal held by 6 or 8 screws.

2. It's easy to check if it's OK with simple techniques, assuming that you have at least one lens that you trust.

3. Focus problems are 99% more likely to come from simple mis focusing than from mount alignment problems.

4. There is much more slop inside most lenses and at the mount itself than in the mount / body junction. Stress about these factors first.

5. When you get a new mount you'll have to test it and set it up, but once this is done careful switching will not be a big deal.

6. It's not like on a film camera where things could look in focus in the finder and be N/G on the film.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Gordon Prince]

N/G?

Not all we here are english speakers...

[Michael Hastings]

N/G?

Not all we here are english speakers...

ng = no good

[Stephen Williams]

[QUOTE=
3 build shims so that once a mount was shimmed for a particular body it would always be correctly adjusted for that body.
[/QUOTE]

Thats the theory.

Stephen

[Erik Widding]

How retro we gotta be so this is a problem????

2. machine the mounts and bodies so accurately there is no shimming needed

Folks it's a new century lets not judge this based on putting a PL mount on a 2C for gawhsdd sakeeee...

TJ understands. :innocent:

[Dexter Gregoire]

Thanks for that Erik. Much appreciated, some people may stop worrying.

When and where can we expect to see the Reservation form for the Birger Mount System?

[Roberto B]

Hi Guys, Flange focal distance is fun to talk about and all but this is getting a little overblown.

1. It's likely that the mount will stay accurate. Precision ground Metal to Metal held by 6 or 8 screws.

2. It's easy to check if it's OK with simple techniques, assuming that you have at least one lens that you trust.

3. Focus problems are 99% more likely to come from simple mis focusing than from mount alignment problems.

4. There is much more slop inside most lenses and at the mount itself than in the mount / body junction. Stress about these factors first.

5. When you get a new mount you'll have to test it and set it up, but once this is done careful switching will not be a big deal.

6. It's not like on a film camera where things could look in focus in the finder and be N/G on the film.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com


here is a post from someone that i'm used to read and appreciate.. it's a shame it may seem to me he forgot sometimes he is a free spirit.. one of us.. and to be DoP is just an add value.. i'd like to read you here more than often, matt..

________________


stephen is another heavy weight posters.. most of you think i do no like him.. who thinks such silly untruth could not be more WRONG..

stephen is one of the most knowledge people posting among us.. i hope david mullen may forgive me but though his posts are often accurate.. they're always very distant.. far away from us.. the people.. but that's the way like he likes to be.. to be among us perhaps.. i cannot judge, sure.. i do not know him unless through his posts.. i prefer the most democratic stephen or matt.

well, using this word related to stephen.. democratic.. seems to me a heresy.. but not now.. since we are in honey moon.. :) he stopped with the FUD and with the DoP talk.. at least, during these vacations.. :matrix:

stephen is also one of the most cool guys at ###.com forums.. specially here.. even if sometimes it may seem to me he forgot how much democratic he is.. democratic is the word and my own belief.. :detective2: and he had followed other ones there.. spreading FUD can be his way of being.. a matter of personality, perhaps.. i already posted this thought before but seems to me there was who thought i was to be simply ironic..

here he's safe.. we are safe.. because this is a place for free people.. like matt.. maybe that's why we both love the russian glass.. :watsup:

________________


and sure, we need to be sure there won't be bugs with the changing mounts.. and stephen and matt are here to help us to get the job.. i hope, we all hope.

________________


edit
like ortega gasset said.. a man is himself (or herself) and his (or her) own circumstances.. reduser is the face of jarred.. like the ###.com forums or this or that post is the face of their own..

[Shawn Nelson]

TJ understands. :innocent:

Okay cool, that sounds good.

I do think there's a chance that Red and Birger completely solve the entire problem and we wouldn't even need to mention the words "collimator" or "flange distance" unless we dropped a lens or camera and were trying to get things back in whack. At which point I'd gladly go hunt down a tech.

[Spinflight]

With all this talk about collimating a lens, has anyone thought about the sensor? What if the sensor itself is 5 microns off in one direction? I would think this would be a problem that adjusting a lens couldn't even begin to fix.

[chuck colburn]

With all this talk about collimating a lens, has anyone thought about the sensor? What if the sensor itself is 5 microns off in one direction? I would think this would be a problem that adjusting a lens couldn't even begin to fix.

Morning Spinflight,

Why do you think that?

Chuck

[Spinflight]

Every manufacturer has a window of tolerance for any part that's manufactured. Who's to say a sensor that is 5 microns off won't pass inspection.

We know how to correct a lens. But are we correcting the lens or actually misaligning it to hit a sensor that is slightly off.

My question is, is there a way to adjust the sensor plane so that it is exactly parrallel to the front of the camera. This has to be accurate first before we even start messing with the lens. Otherwise, you'll be doing it all backwards.

I wouldn't want to alter my set of perfectly good Red prime lenses work on my senser that may be the culprit.

[Stephen Williams]

Every manufacturer has a window of tolerance for any part that's manufactured. Who's to say a sensor that is 5 microns off won't pass inspection.

We know how to correct a lens. But are we correcting the lens or actually misaligning it to hit a sensor that is slightly off.

My question is, is there a way to adjust the sensor plane so that it is exactly parrallel to the front of the camera. This has to be accurate first before we even start messing with the lens. Otherwise, you'll be doing it all backwards.

I wouldn't want to alter my set of perfectly good Red prime lenses work on my senser that may be the culprit.

Hi,

You collimate the mount to the sensor, in the same way people always have with film cameras so that the mount of a camera is parallel to the film.

Don't mess with the lenses, if you do they will only be correct on your camera.

Stephen

[chuck colburn]

Lens seat to film plane parallelism is one of the easiest parameters to check on a camera. You don't even need a taking lens to perform the test. I'm sure the assemblers at RED know how to do this.

[Spinflight]

My bad, Thought I read on here someone was actually modifying a lens. I need some sleep. Disregard my post :-(

[Shawn Nelson]

After reading the several collimation threads I talked with Ted down at Red HQ about collimation and he confirmed my worst thoughts: you will have to re-collimate the Red *every single time you change mounts*. So, if you never touch the mount and stick with the factory-collimated PL then you are fine. But if you go to the Birger EF you have to collimate. Then if you want to go back to the factory PL you have to re-collimate and so on. The idea of potentially needing to attempt to grind my mounts scares me (I would certainly screw that one up). So I'm now afraid to use anything but PL. One of the Red employees (I forget his name, he was the guy in the first screen capture that Red released using a Nikon lens) said he spent 2 days helping Soderbergh's crew collimate their Reds using all their lenses.

Ouch, I haven't the skills for that sort of thing.

[albert rudnicki]

100% right

[Michael Schrengohst]

So, on the flip side. Let's say you start with Nikon lenses.
Will RED call you up and say "Hey you ordered the Nikon mount,
do you want that installed".
So you would be good, shooting with any Nikon mounted lens?
Until you got the dough to buy the RED PL lenses?

[Sam Druckerman]

you will have to re-collimate the Red *every single time you change mounts*.

Bummer....


One of the Red employees said he spent 2 days helping Soderbergh's crew collimate their Reds using all their lenses.


Well, I guess we'll know more soon...

But it's not looking to good for guy's like me that wanted to switch back and forth.

[Anders Holck]

collimation is not that big of a deal if you measure and it's in spec.
If you measure and it's suddenly off, then you will spend time figuring out what went wrong. If the camera flange and the mounts are in spec, and you change them in a clean environment, I can't see why you'd have a problem.

[Paul Leeming]

After reading the several collimation threads I talked with Ted down at Red HQ about collimation and he confirmed my worst thoughts: you will have to re-collimate the Red *every single time you change mounts*. So, if you never touch the mount and stick with the factory-collimated PL then you are fine. But if you go to the Birger EF you have to collimate. Then if you want to go back to the factory PL you have to re-collimate and so on. The idea of potentially needing to attempt to grind my mounts scares me (I would certainly screw that one up). So I'm now afraid to use anything but PL. One of the Red employees (I forget his name, he was the guy in the first screen capture that Red released using a Nikon lens) said he spent 2 days helping Soderbergh's crew collimate their Reds using all their lenses.

Ouch, I haven't the skills for that sort of thing.I seem to remember a recent post stating that the Birger mount might have changed to one which uses the original Red mount in place, more like a mount adapter. I'd be just as worried as you if I needed to collimate every time I changed mounts, though right now I'm on the fence with the Birger anyway since I've decided to get both zoom lenses from Red for each of my cameras, covering 99% of likely shooting conditions. HTH

[Mike Prevette]

This is all standard affair for any professional cine camera system. Don't be afraid of it, just get used to it. Or even better make VERY good friends with a local rental house and have them do it. Then give them a deal when they need to subrent a body from you. Hell Mine will probably live at one of my local rental houses.

_mike

[Roberto B]

you should think the world is the same.. according your own standards wherever you are.. ah, americans or english speakers.. strange people.. always self-centered on your own world..

the planet is a bigger place.. bigger than your own mind.. :-)

[Roberto B]

btw, this reminds me that feature.. the others.. actually, a non native english feature though in english language :) but, it reminds me that feature anyway.. :detective2:

[Shawn Nelson]

This is all standard affair for any professional cine camera system. Don't be afraid of it, just get used to it. Or even better make VERY good friends with a local rental house and have them do it. Then give them a deal when they need to subrent a body from you. Hell Mine will probably live at one of my local rental houses.

_mike

Since I want to rent out my Red, that immediately makes me a "competitor" to my local rental house. I already approached one of them to co-host a "Red Open House" with my Red and their accessories, they turned me down. I was sure bummed, it seems they didn't want to work together. I would prefer a strong working relationship.