Working Hand in Hand Red - Apple

[gismor]

I wanna invest in a apple environment that is capable of smoothly work hand in hand with the red camera system.
The main purpose is financing a low cost feature, but inverting big money in a durable high -end "suite" and equipment.
Our little team wants to work as much as posible without cost involving third party post houses.
I mean I read a lot of forum pages, and the more information I get the more I get the impression I don t know nothing. I need some pro advices to hand in an investment list.

The Silverado System was a good choice recomended in this forum, and now I wanna now if my red package fits the expectation. I am really lost in the " Digital Media Option " solution. My expectation is to manage the way through the post workflow with the lowest compression to finally finish ( hopefully ) in a Traditional Cinema ( finish printing on 35 mm film ).


1. Red Body
2. Premium Production Pack
3. Prime Set
4. 50-150 Zoom
5. 2x Power Pack
6. RED EVF Viewfinder
7. RED LCD Screen
8. RED ARM
9. EVF / LCD Extension Cable 10ft
10. Digital Media Option ???

I would be very pleased to have some support on this,
thanx. gismor

[J. Bernard Vallon]

If your looking to save money, I'd say go with a nikon set instead of the prime set. You'll have a wonderful image with a very minor-if any-reduction in quality (has yet to be seen) and you'll save 10-15k.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

Or hey, even cheaper, you could just hire me and my set. :-p

[gismor]

Perfect Optics.
I don t owe nikon optics so for me now would be the beginning. I want to buy the hole set and it s alright with the budget.
the most important question for me is the one about the media options.

thanx

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Read the FAQ, do a search... Tons of discussion on the media options.

Personally, I would recommend 2 RED DRIVES, the CompactFlash (CF) module and a handful of approved 8GB or larger CF cards.

The RED RAM (just like a RED DRIVE, but has solid-state media inside) should also be a consideration if you'll be doing a lot of vehicle mount work or will be placing the camera in situations with lots of motion or vibration and won't have direct access every couple minutes to swap CF cards.

[gismor]

thanx again. I will read the faq intensly.
but I ve got problems to "search" the right question
can you give a hint for it

[Curran Giddens]

I wanna invert in a apple environment that is capable of smoothly work hand in hand with the red camera system.
The main purpose is financing a low cost feature, but inverting big money in a durable high -end "suite" and equipment.
Our little team wants to work as much as posible without cost involving third party post houses.
I mean I read a lot of forum pages, and the more information I get the more I get the impression I don t know nothing. I need some pro advices to hand in an investment list.

The Silverado System was a good choice recomended in this forum, and now I wanna know if my red package fits the expectation. I am really lost in the " Digital Media Option " solution. My expectation is to manage the way through the post workflow with the lowest compression to finally finish ( hopefully ) in a Traditional Cinema ( finish printing on 35 mm film ).


1. Red Body
2. Premium Production Pack
3. Prime Set
4. 50-150 Zoom
5. 2x Power Pack
6. RED EVF Viewfinder
7. RED LCD Screen
8. RED ARM
9. EVF / LCD Extension Cable 10ft
10. Digital Media Option ???

I would be very pleased to have some support on this,
thanx. gismor



You mean you wanna invest in an apple environment.... not invert.
Sorry, but I've been working on some desktop publishing projects lately, so my brain is in spell checker mode.

That looks like a nice setup. All you need is a Mac Pro with a like 8TB of storage, a storage backup system, LCD monitor, and Final Cut Studio 2.

I would get the finish print to 35mm film done at a Traditional Cinema lab.

There is some more gear you will probably need:

Lighting package (although it is possible to get away with just using available light). Camera support, mattebox, filters, etc...

[Bruce Allen]

You mean you wanna invest in an apple environment....

Why do Americans who buy Apples always say "invest"? Okay, okay, you are putting money into something that will help you do your work and potentially bring in revenue... but seriously... "investment"? A computer is something that loses value faster than practically ANYTHING ELSE...

Gismor, you will never have a "durable" high-end environment for more than 2-3 years. Just accept it. After that it will be out of date.

Now, do you have a Red reservation? It doesn't look like it. In that case, you are only going to get your camera in 2008. By that time, computers will have moved on. Just look at the Intel roadmap.

So, I'd say unless you have pressing need for a new computer now, you should keep vaguely abreast of the technology, but only start looking into systems about a month or two before your Red is due to ship. Until then, your investment will just be losing value.

Curran, totally agree with you that lighting, mattebox, filters, etc. are needed, BTW... and they don't lose value as quickly. Oh, and a tripod.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Are you planning on starting up a multi-bay post-house?

Do you just need the system for the feature you're about to shoot.

Do you need to own a RED or is renting the best option for you?

Do you need a system that is field portable?

Do you plan to subsidize your projects purely from project to project and only work on your own films or do you want the infrastructure to sell your services to other productions?

What do you want to do? Just editing? VFX? Grading? Motion Graphics? Are you going to do the audio work yourself? Will you need a render farm? What about client review or will you be your only client?

Do you want to setup a production company to create this project? Will this production company need to handle all of the finances?

On a limited budget you really have to think through your entire infrastructure when purchasing hardware otherwise you might have the fastest system money can buy but find yourself unable to perform a critical task without going over budget.

[gismor]

I see I see,...
you guys want to know everything,you re right, probably it will be easier to give an advice. I want to thank you for all the answers!

Well, yes we got a little production company in old europe, been supported by a much bigger enterprise, so at the moment were loving our work and didn t have to worry about our income. After long years shooting shorts, comercials and features for others we now wanna conquer the top of the entertainment industry ( just a joke ) no,... we want to shoot our first feature the indie way, and continue to work on our projects. So yes, the system I am asking for is mainly for the feature. And I do understand that it would be a mess buying it now, for later purposes. But I need to do aprox. calculatings to hand in "investment - lists " ( I don t know how to call theme ) to the bigger company
supporting us. And of course I need lightning and camera accesories but I allreaedy know what kind of tripod head, kino s or matte box I will be using.

No way I am making the transfer to film by my own. Post house and laboratory will always be listed in budget. Just want to do as much as possible at the office.

I am really not in to digital movie making, I had the pleassure to work with film and of course the DI pipeline, but always surrounded by experts, so now I am asking experts again... ( and It is my main question here!!!)

what about my red package, what media option would you recomend.

Muchas Gracias. And again Thanx
gismor

[Blair S. Paulsen]

To your specific issue of choosing media: the RedDrives are an incredible deal so if your project doesn't require a shock resistant media like CF then make your life easy and get 3 RedDrives. In a "standard" set up you should get close to 3 hours of recording per drive for $900/each. You'll want to make copies as you go and you can use standard IT protocols.

There a a ton of threads on these issues so you may just have to devote a block of time to going through them.

[wshultz]

Why do Americans who buy Apples always say "invest"? Okay, okay, you are putting money into something that will help you do your work and potentially bring in revenue... but seriously... "investment"? A computer is something that loses value faster than practically ANYTHING ELSE...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Because it sounds SO much better than "waste", "lose", or "drain"...

[Craig Schober]

Why do Americans who buy Apples always say "invest"? Okay, okay, you are putting money into something that will help you do your work and potentially bring in revenue... but seriously... "investment"? A computer is something that loses value faster than practically ANYTHING ELSE...
www.boacinema.com

i think of investment in apple as a time issue. in other words, coming from a pc environment, it takes just as long to learn and understand mac gui as it does to lose your investment's value. inverse proportionality. so in a few years the hardware is worthless but the value (time) you have and will gain by switching over to mac is high. some would say priceless.

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

I invest in my Macs because in the course of their lifetime (which is 2-4 years), I get somewhere between 150 and 300% return from the work I do on them (not counting what I charge for beeing behind the machine, and software,upgrades and what have you) - I would call that a pretty good investment!
If my RED camera will be as good an investment, I will be drinking champagne for breakfast very soon ;-)

[Bruce Allen]

I invest in my Macs because in the course of their lifetime (which is 2-4 years), I get somewhere between 150 and 300% return from the work I do on them (not counting what I charge for beeing behind the machine, and software,upgrades and what have you) - I would call that a pretty good investment!
If my RED camera will be as good an investment, I will be drinking champagne for breakfast very soon ;-)

Interesting way of thinking. How do you calculate this? Do you say "my base day rate is x, but since I have a fast mac, it is more. Therefore it makes me a certain amount extra per year"? I used to think that way - every time I got a new computer, I thought "oh cool, this is a good investment - it will boost my income because I can charge more per hour".

Recently my theory is that income in our field is far more dependent on client relations, experience and talent instead.

I haven't upgraded my computer for a few years - almost an experiment to see how far I can push this side of things...

At the moment, the total cost of my home system about equals my day rate using it. How's that for ROI?

If I could get that with the Red, I'd buy one too ;)

Okay, I'll admit, most of the time I get paid to use faster computers, owned by the people I work for. But I have definitely done many days of work at home when I make more money than the cost of my (admittedly old) computer in a day...

Of course this argument also needs to go into the software side of things...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Brook Willard]

"We need to back up footage on set."
"Ok, you can use my PowerBook for $150/D"

[Evin Grant]

As Brook can attest to my lowly 17" G4 Powerbook has netted me over $3000 in rentals this year alone. And some people complain about P2 cards!:bleh:

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Interesting way of thinking. How do you calculate this? Do you say "my base day rate is x, but since I have a fast mac, it is more. Therefore it makes me a certain amount extra per year"? I used to think that way - every time I got a new computer, I thought "oh cool, this is a good investment - it will boost my income because I can charge more per hour".

Recently my theory is that income in our field is far more dependent on client relations, experience and talent instead.

I haven't upgraded my computer for a few years - almost an experiment to see how far I can push this side of things...

At the moment, the total cost of my home system about equals my day rate using it. How's that for ROI?

If I could get that with the Red, I'd buy one too ;)

Okay, I'll admit, most of the time I get paid to use faster computers, owned by the people I work for. But I have definitely done many days of work at home when I make more money than the cost of my (admittedly old) computer in a day...

Of course this argument also needs to go into the software side of things...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

My Macs earn me what they cost + 150-300% on top of that, when you figure out how it works, you´ll love it! Maybe someday I will write a book, but not tonight.

EDIT: "experience and talent instead." Without those no one would hire me so my macs would not be used and be of no value (of course)

[Bruce Allen]

My Macs earn me what they cost + 150-300% on top of that, when you figure out how it works, you´ll love it! Maybe someday I will write a book, but not tonight.

EDIT: "experience and talent instead." Without those no one would hire me so my macs would not be used and be of no value (of course)

Exactly, Erik, you're earning the money for you. Probably 'cause you're a talented chap. Not your Macs. That's Apple messing with your head!

I earn over 100x what my PC cost a year. That doesn't mean my PC is that good of an investment.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Häakon]

Exactly, Erik, you're earning the money for you. Probably 'cause you're a talented chap. Not your Macs. That's Apple messing with your head!

I earn over 100x what my PC cost a year. That doesn't mean my PC is that good of an investment.
Brook's example is a good one of how the computer can be directly related to providing extra income (and therefore, paying for itself and eventually making you a profit).

I'm a PC guy - always have been, probably always will be. I've used Macs heaps of times over the years, and certainly the OS has gotten much better in every iteration. But for my personal use, I just don't like them very much. That being said, I'm buying my first Mac Pro in tandem with my RED, because I believe that the entire RED workflow will function in a much superior way with Final Cut (I'm proficient with the program). It's mostly a software issue, but RED has never made secret their strong Apple preference/connections, and Apple has already shown a willingness to push forward full speed ahead with RED's camera. The fact that they were demonstrating RED footage right in their own booth at NAB speaks volumes. Does this mean that RED won't work well with Avid, or Premiere, or Vegas, (or whatever)? No. But I think the writing is pretty clearly on the wall that the integration with Final Cut will be strongest and there will be the largest number of people using RED with Final Cut - meaning that the potential support group and speed of fixing errors will be the greatest as well.

I just wish I could get my computer now - but it would be outdated by the time I get my camera! :-P

[wshultz]

I tend to bid projects out at flat rates and if I can do them in less time (read faster computer) I'm more profitable. I'm definitely turning around more projects in less time than I could with smaller drives, slower processors, etc. I'd have to say my Mac has been a good investment in that regard, not to mention the decreased fatigue and increased enjoyment factor. That counts for me too.

[Bruce Allen]

Agree with you guys. Wshultz, yes, fatigue and enjoyment factor is underrated. If it makes you feel faster and more confident with clients and gets you in a good creative mood, I can definitely see you being able to turn around jobs more quickly.

I still don't think that the correlation between cpu speed and render times is really as direct as everyone believes it to be - mostly nowadays, render times are determined by your workflow and skill. And the relationship between render times and project turnarounds is more tenuous still. Depends on the nature of the work you do, I guess. For me (mostly doing design and effects for theatrical trailers), it is 90% human factors, 10% cpu speed... if you're doing long-form churning through low-end stuff it would be different.

Haakon, I agree with you too - in my initial post to Gismor I said the same thing - that unless he has pressing projects that need a super-fast computer, he really should wait until a month or so before delivery of his Red before buying one.

I'm also looking into a Mac for my next computer - like you, Haakon, I'm looking at sometime next year... I'm trying to wait for Nehalem and the next GPU cycle but that might be optimistic.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Steve Freebairn]

I'm also looking into a Mac for my next computer - like you, Haakon, I'm looking at sometime next year... I'm trying to wait for Nehalem and the next GPU cycle but that might be optimistic.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

I'm hoping for the same thing Bruce!

[Ivan D. Young]

Yeah, has anyone heard whether Red will filter down to any PC apps? Just wondering, I realize that Apple will get a pretty good head start on this and I am cool with that, but will PC's get there?