ENG, EFP, FILM and RED STYLE Shooting

[David Battistella]

Much of what is being tossed around in recent posts, and the positions being defended are based around three main styles of shooting.

ENG (electronic News Gathering)
EFP (Electronic Field Productions)
FILM (Feature FIlm Production)

Each has it's own specific needs and requirements and the RED team set out to satisfy as many of these situations as possible in a "tapeless" and "filmless"enviroment.

What is becoming more clear is that the camera is going to produce a REDSTYLE of shooting and this invovlves more immediacy for feature film makers and more of a wait for ENG and EFP people used to shooting on tape and more concerns for archiving and post workflows and "day of" scenarios.

I guess the point is that what defines a particular style of shooting, to this point has been the technology and the workflow. Both of which are going to completely change in the RED environment.

So 1080P does not mean EFP, or ENG the same way 4K does not mean film. It's all just RED and the RED way of doing things. Why try to cram or define any or all of these styles into one Camera what what has evolved is a merging of two worlds in RED which makes feature film better and EFP and ENG better as well.

It is, after all, brand new technology. Why should it be like anything else?

It's just going to be the RED way of doing things. The sooner we all accept this,(and there are many believers and backers) the better it will be.

As it stands, shooting 4K 2K wotkflows and going through REDCINE to your output format makes a ton of sense (from a shooting and post perspective) and having 1080P and 720P out the side of the camera can satisfy MANY needs, including live and direct to tape (if desired) recording and monitoring.

I am anxious to see what evolves.


David

[Steve Gibby]

Overview
Red’s core technology is very closely related to a DSLR, moderately related to a TV/video camera, and distantly related to a film camera. Consequently, the core field and post workflows of RED One will be very closely related to a DSLR (CMOS, RAW, Histogram, etc.), moderately related to a TV/video camera (EVF, electronics, processing, etc.), and distantly related to a film camera (certain lenses, filter use, etc.).

Keeping the above in mind, and assuming that everyone uses RED One to it’s maximum potential uses in cine style and EFP style field and post workflows, I think this is an accurate overview of the challenges faced in RED One adoption. There are many other factors, but I’ve purposely kept this simple:

Still photographers who are experienced with DSLR technology, features, and acquisition/post workflows should adapt quite easily to RED One. If they also have manual film still photography experience, that will help them. They’ll be challenged to learn how to shoot a manual camera, and to learn new lenses (S35, S16, B4 2/3”), and techniques for using them. They’re already used to 35mm DOF.

Those who arrive from the professional television and video industry will be challenged to learn a tapeless RAW workflow and will need to solve client delivery issues. They’re used to a mostly manual camera environment, equipment like EVF, white balance, focus assist, and following motion subjects, but they’ll be challenged to learn cine style production principles, and the use of different lens types (35mm still, S35, S16). They’ll also be challenged when they use lenses with 35mm DOF.

Those who come from a purely film background will be challenged to learn digital technology and its operation and uses: RAW, Histogram, Focus Assist, EVF, etc. They also be challenged to learn the use of other lens types if they have no background in their use (35mm still, B4 2/3”). They’ll also be challenged to learn the various digital post workflows and digital delivery medium options.

Conclusions
Everyone will have a learning curve in adopting RED One. IMO many factors will determine how long our learning curve is. Those who have experience in all three of the categories above should adapt the fastest to RED One use. Those with experience in only one of the three categories will probably have the longest learning curve for RED One use. X factors that may shorten the learning curve include attitude, lack of bias against other genres, talent and tenacity. If someone only uses RED One for a very limited range of the production genres that RED One will be capable of, and the production they do closely aligns with their past experience, then their learning curve should be commensurately short. Conversely, someone who challenges themselves to work in a broad range of the production genres that RED One will be capable of, and has little experience that relates to production in those genres, will have a long learning curve. Those who have broad and deep experience in all three of divisions of the imaging industry I listed above, and use RED One in it’s full array of intended uses, should have a reasonable short learning curve. The field and post workflows will be slightly or significantly different, depending on the genre or sub-genres of cine style or EFP style adopters are doing on each production.

Post Script
RED One isn’t a DSLR, but it’s a 1st cousin. RED One isn’t a TV/video camera but it’s a 2nd cousin. RED One isn’t a film camera, but it’s a 3rd cousin. The bottom line is that RED One represents a family reunion of the entire imaging family! With that in mind, lets eliminate the bias, jealousy, and sibling rivalry in the family, give respect to all family members, and press on into this new opportunity and seriously push the imaging and workflow envelope upward to new heights!

[Emanuel & Co]

Nice reading, thank you for share.

[David Battistella]

Overview
The bottom line is that RED One represents a family reunion of the entire imaging family! With that in mind, lets eliminate the bias, jealousy, and sibling rivalry in the family, give respect to all family members, and press on into this new opportunity and seriously push the imaging and workflow envelope upward to new heights!

In the words of the infamous ALI-G......REEEEspect! The RED love in begins.

David

[Paul Hazlett]

that gibby sure writes purty.

and informative.

Gibby, I think you collect your posts and sell a Red/Digital Media Primer.

[Andrew Benz]

that gibby sure writes purty.

and informative.

Gibby, I think you collect your posts and sell a Red/Digital Media Primer.

..."The Tao of Gibby - A Survival Guide to Converging Media and You"

[guinwhite]

that gibby sure writes purty.

and informative.

Gibby, I think you collect your posts and sell a Red/Digital Media Primer.

This is true only if one likes strictly genre-specific techno jargon. We all work in fields of expertise with jargon; however, jargon is exclusive. I see this new technology as most ultimately inclusive. It's time to ditch exclusivity in filmmaking and allow access to all, even those who aren't familiar with abbrev. like EVF, ENG, DSLR, etc. It's BS and should be left to technical manuals. Say what you want to say...without the technical jargon. We'll all be better off in the long run.

[Steve Gibby]

Guinwhite,

So all these longstanding industries should change their acronyms now so that newbies don't have to pay their dues to learn them? All manuals should be three times as long because they fully spell out every descriptive term in every use of the term? Virtually everybody else on this board understands at least 95% of the overall motion media tech acronyms, or they know where to find the ones they don't know - and because you don't, we should all change our posts and the overall industry should all change for you?

That's your second post here and you spent it insulting the board and one of its longstanding members (me)? I think maybe you better erase that post and start over - or simply pick some other place to insult people. Your stay here won't be long with an attitude like that.

The key acronym you used is "BS" because it sums up your post :gun:

[chuck colburn]

Hmmm

Sounds like it's time for a road trip...... load up Jake! lol

[Steve Gibby]

you've been a member here for 9 months...lighten up.

Really...I think you should lighten up. This board has only been in existence for nine months and I've been here since the first day - and the first day of all the other RED boards that have ever existed over a 20 month span. Take two steps backward and start over.

[Steve Gibby]

Hmmm

Sounds like it's time for a road trip...... load up Jake! lol

Indeed...bring Jake on down here!

[chuck colburn]

Oh yeah.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

This is true only if one likes strictly genre-specific techno jargon. We all work in fields of expertise with jargon; however, jargon is exclusive.

Guinwhite, check your PM's.

I didn't remove your post (or at least not the one quoted) because you're entitled to your opinions. However, I just have to add that jargon also serves a purpose. It's only exclusive to those who choose to be excluded. All industries have their own jargon and that's just a fact of life.

Steve Gibby is a valuable contributor to this forum. I highly suggest you take the time to read every post of his you come across -- you most likely will learn something. If you find terms like "ENG", "EFP", "DSLR", etc.. to be "exclusive", then you're obviously in the wrong place or you're a total noob. Not that there's a problem with either of those positions... All I ask is that you take 90 seconds of your time and look up a few acronyms and definitions. You may be pleasantly surprised just how convenient this industry jargon is and how it's not truly unique to our little niche here but overlaps many genres and industries that may not be entirely related.

[Ken Corben]

This is true only if one likes strictly genre-specific techno jargon. We all work in fields of expertise with jargon; however, jargon is exclusive. I see this new technology as most ultimately inclusive. It's time to ditch exclusivity in filmmaking and allow access to all, even those who aren't familiar with abbrev. like EVF, ENG, DSLR, etc. It's BS and should be left to technical manuals. Say what you want to say...without the technical jargon. We'll all be better off in the long run.

Yikes! Your second post directly insults a non-redteam industry veteran that shares his sage advice and opinions in a public forum for free. Consulting that could cost thousands of dollars offered up for free to the reduser community...hmmm.

But hey, in the spirit of your post here's my non-jargon post on the subject:

I laid down my grand to reserve a redone camera because it will shoot my documentaries air, sea and land in a better high definition resolution with a tapeless workflow better than more expensive cameras available today. I can shoot my dramedy pilots and indie features for a fraction of the film costs or other acceptable video formats for distribution. AND,

because I'm a camera nerd and always buy the latest cool gear just like my Apple computer, software and iPhone habits.

There, I think that was jargon free and to the point regarding EFP V ENG V 1080i V 1080p debates and HD Cine based acquisition for a Mac OSX based FCP delivery system that meets or exceeds industry standard HD SAT transmission compression codecs. Provided of course the NTSC and PAL downrez color specs are within the parameters of the broadcast specs which I presume the Redcode RAW to Apple prores 4:2:2 codec will meet or exceed once printed to the deliverable HDCAM SR 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 recording options mandated in the BTS (broadcast transmission specs). Then again it always comes down to CIK (content is king) which is a function of technology, talent and storytelling abilities - the latter two you can not learn - to deliver award winning program viewers want to see that pull in the required NR (Nielson ratings) that the client looks for PT (post transmission).

But I digress from the non-jargon mandate... Keep 'em coming Gibby!

Sharky

[David Battistella]

Wait a second. I think I found some!





But hey, in the spirit of your post here's my non-jargon post on the subject:

I laid down my grand to reserve a redone camera what's a redone?

because it will shoot my documentaries air, sea and land in a better high definition resolution with a tapeless workflow what's tapeless?



better than more expensive cameras available today. I can shoot my dramedy what's a dramedy?


pilots and indie indie wha????
features for a fraction of the film costs or other acceptable video formats for distribution. AND,

because I'm a camera nerd and always buy the latest cool gear just like my Apple computer, software and iPhone what does the "i" stand for in "i" phone?

Seriously. Every industry has jargon, it's just useful short form.
:)
David

[Jay A. Kelley]

I have spent the last 10 mins chaseing Brook from thread to thread as he's closed them down, one after another, because of a LOT of fighting..

This place is starting to read like C.com...

God forbid..

What's going on here? Is it bad planets or trolls invading the site?

Whatever, we need to calm down

Jay

[Alexander Nikishin]

I guess this is the storm before the quiet? :turned:

[Eddie]

When people recognize that smaller budget features are a kind of efp... then it will be quiet.:usd:

[Alexander Nikishin]

When people recognize that smaller budget features are a kind of efp... then it will be quiet.:usd:

It's only a smaller budget feature if you treat it that way...

Half a year ago I worked on a short film called "Illegal" with director Andrew Oh and Director of Photography Ken Yeung.

We shot for 4 days on an HVX with a Redrock M2 adapter and Nikon primes.

The budget isn't even worth mentioning, never the less, it went to Sundance, Tribecca, premiered in the Panasonic booth at NAB this year, and it landed both the director, dp and myself many jobs.

It's all a matter of how much you love your job and how much you put into it, not necesarily the budget.

[Morning Glory]

It may seem exclusive, and is as it belongs to a small world inside the large one, but is also a shared language in a specific niche. It allows everyone to clearly communicate and understand each other’s needs. I've learned through out the years the priceless nature of communicating clearly and concisely with fellow crewmembers, labs, editors, fx people, etc. A shared and agreed upon language is an indispensable tool for that goal. When your needs aren't understood clearly, mistakes are bound to happen, fast, and sometimes expensive.

[TimPipher]

Gibby's much more knowledgable about this stuff than I am so some of what he says naturally goes over my head. One thing I've noticed, though -- I've always gotten the impression that Gibby goes out of his way to make sure that even idiots like me get something valuable out of his posts. In fact, he's even gone to the trouble of placing separate posts that spell out and summarize definitions and acronyms.

I've also noticed that Gibby always directly answers questions posed to him -- even though they're posed by people obviously not as knowledgable or as accomplished as he -- questions that he could easily blow off.

All I can say to Gibby is -- Thanks!

[Steve Sherrick]

I may be wrong but Guinwhite seems like a troll.

Guys, quite honestly it gets uncomfortable reading these threads when it gets personal. I think good debate over technical considerations is healthy and might end up producing an even better camera in the end, but when it crosses over that line into personal attacks, it turns into a soap opera.

I look over many of your resumes and I am envious at the phenomenal work that has been done. Quite a collection of talent in this community. I know we're not all going to see eye to eye on all things, but it seems like in the best interest of the forum that ideas are exchanged in a respectful manner and that you speak to others like you would if you were in personn with them.

I hope Guinwhite is a troll because if he is someone who is looking to join this Red community and the industry in general, it makes no sense to ma why you would make an entrance like that. Look at how much Gibby has contributed to all of us. You don't have to agree with everything he says but the sheer amount of effort he puts into this is extraordinary.

I think we're all getting anxious to finally see this camera come to fruition and perhaps that's being reflected in these posts the past few days, but if you can take a deep breath and post with passion, not impudence.

Regards,
Steve

[guinwhite]

Thanks for all the clarification. Good board. And no, I'm not a troll...at least not here.

[Steve Sherrick]

Thanks for all the clarification. Good board. And no, I'm not a troll...at least not here.
Okay, but can you see why it was received that way? I've been working professionally in this industry for a while in many different facets, but I still look at myself as a student, constantly trying to learn new things. The terms EFP, ENG, etc are all familiar terms to me, yet I still read Gibby's post with open eyes, seeing what other little tidbits of information I can absorb. Even though I disagree with your first posts here, you may post something later on that is informative to me, that I can learn something from. That's what this is all about. I think if we all have that attitude, a give and take mentality, always trying to help and be helped, we all end up benefiting.

Steve

[Gavin Greenwalt]

IMO the reason these boards have deteriorated over the last day or two is because every half hour somebody starts a "troll" witch hunt for someone having said something even slightly negative.

People let's assume everybody is sincere and interested. If I hear one more post about "under-tones" or "implied questions" or "Jabs" or "jib" I'm going to start standing up for every troll who comes through these forums.

Everyone deserves our respect and the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. If they're a troll, give them enough slack to hang themselves. It's too easy for misunderstandings in the typed media.

I don't know what anyone's intent is and I try to give everybody a chance. If not it's no better than any other form of close minded bigotry that exists elsewhere on the internet. You can disagree, you can say you don't feel the same way about a subject but calling someone a "troll" or accusing them of intentionally attempting to offend without proof is bad form. It's making an accusation and it's a personal attack. What do you expect after verbally berating someone? Them to just happily take it? There are a lot of REDusers picking fights right now and I for one am not pleased.

Now this isn't directed at anyone specifically on this topic it's just a general atmosphere that seems to be developing and today's the best day for it to end.

[David Battistella]

Thanks for all the clarification. Good board. And no, I'm not a troll...at least not here.

I've been a leader in the creativecow.net community for some time now. I never thought I would be a board reader, etc. but I discovered that the forced reading I was doing was helping me stay on top of technology.

I also am a huge believer in sharing knowledge and I really like the openness of the RED community. In my mind it is very unique.

A while ago I wrote an article for newcomers to the creative cow (and forum goers in general) to help people get the most out of online forums. If you care to read it it's here:

http://library.creativecow.net/articles/battistella_david/good_grazing.php

I like the sharp, poignant and sometimes opinionated posts I read here. I post what I can, when I think it is useful but more than anything I have enjoyed the reading.

The attitude displayed by the RED team and it's leadership is, quite frankly, inspiring. Who can't get behind this kind of passion and use it to put into their own work?

It's all good here, the vibe is good, there is a lot to learn. and there is a lot that will help us all be a bit better at what we do.

David

[Brook Willard]

I almost went on one of my famous edit-sprees to clear this thread of unhappiness and troll discussion, but it's not worth it. Things have calmed down and that's great... but one more mention of that crap and it's locked.