RedOne is groundbraking

[Jack Wester]

I'm a noob. So maybe I've got it all wrong. If so, tell me why, and I'll shut up.

But for me it just does not make sense to cripple the capability of this camera to enable it to shoot below its potential. When comparing the statements from Peter Jackson and Steven Soderbergh fueling the revolution and legend of this camera with the arguments that sounds as "fuck film, I want to deliver the physical disk directly to my client".

Will we also hear top directors going "We could probably just show our hero dying by that sword in real time. Fuck that arty overcranking stuff. As long as we can deliver the harddrive". I think not.

Hope I haven't offended anybody.

Joachim "Jack" Wester

[Gavin Greenwalt]

That's fine and all. But are you shooting any projects similar to what Peter Jackson and Soderbergh are shooting right now?

Everyone has different requirements. Lots of commercials use arty over cranking to make products and people more appealing. Admittedly we're talking far slower than the RED can offer even at 720p but the point is, not everybody gets the opportunity to shoot a feature film every day. And if you do. Congratulations.

That was one thing I always was annoyed by when reading American Cinematographer. There were a lot of cinematographers who would make comments to the effect of. "I never have and never will shoot a project for money." Most of them thanks to a family friend who gave them a break immediately out of college.

The rest of us get hungry from time to time and like to eat.

[Jack Wester]

Removing 35mm overcranking would to cripple this camera severely. And if the solution is to bring huge 900MB/sec RAID racks and servers with diesel fueled powersupplies to a set, the camera might as well be $170 000 for all I care.

All with the disclaimer that I've misunderstood things. :clown2:

[Jack Wester]

That's fine and all. But are you shooting any projects similar to what Peter Jackson and Soderbergh are shooting right now?

You're being silly and you know it.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Removing 35mm overcranking would to cripple this camera severely. And if the solution is to bring huge 900MB/sec RAID racks and servers with diesel fueled powersupplies to a set, the camera might as well be $170 000 for all I care.


Amen.

[Jack Wester]

...but the point is, not everybody gets the opportunity to shoot a feature film every day. And if you do. Congratulations.

If product development was simply about producing what is most commonly used, the RedOne would be a Camcorder with autofocus.

Having 35mm film quality for $17K is what makes RedOne unique. Having better than 35mm film still at $17K makes it something that we're going to read in cinema history a hundred years from now. I'd hate to see that change before it has happened.

And by the way, if David Beckham turns down his football shoe brand (thats soccer to some), I promise you, it will not affect the other top football players as much as it will the wider market, including noobs like me. It doesn't matter if every director or indie moviemaker in the world shoots like Peter Jackson. I think many wants to, and that is whats matters to the RedOne. Its the tool, not the artist.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Give us 35mm quality in a Digital Cinema camera with all the top bells and whistles that will allow us to compete with film, that has been and will be the main selling point to the RED
ONE

Also....last I checked, Jim's company happens to be named RED DIGITAL CINEMA, not RED Digital Cinema / Beta / XD cam.

[Jack Wester]

...last I checked, Jim's company happens to be named RED DIGITAL CINEMA, not RED Digital Cinema / Beta / XD cam.

Well said.

To cite another quote on this forum:


But I think that if you want to compete with film cameras in commercials, dramas, promos, musicvideos etc. you would need at least 50-60 fps from the full sensor. Otherwise we are going to see red one's with Abakas B4 adapter and an P+S technik PRO-35 on top of that shooting 2K for commercials.....crazy!


Lets hope we don't have to see this

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I'm not saying features should be removed at the top end and would personally love to see Full Frame 2k @ 60.

But at the same time I recognize people want to use their REDs to "shoot the fam" so to speak. And probably not a small number of used car commercials. :D

I personally believe that 2k minimum capture not just because it's optimal for cine applications but because I believe it is the best option for everybody including the guy who shoots weddings on the weekend. If they could get 4k RAW @ 60 I would be advocating that instead of 2k RGB @ 60 as well.

I know from experience that scaling takes almost no time and can be done in real time but if I'm wrong and non-cine applications would suffer, then you have to deliver what is needed for all applications.

[Rob Lohman]

Removing 35mm overcranking would to cripple this camera severely. And if the solution is to bring huge 900MB/sec RAID racks and servers with diesel fueled powersupplies to a set, the camera might as well be $170 000 for all I care.

Please remember that up until IBC last year there was no "onboard" 4K recording. When we announced that it was up to 30 fps. For higher you will have to go out the RAW port.

Or are you talking about downscale to 1080 at 60 fps?

Obviously the features of the camera can change at any time (as we always indicate), but that's the latest official stand point, see: http://www.red.com/formatoptions.shtml

[Alexander Black]

http://www.abelcine.com/articles/images/pdf/phantom_speed_chart_overview_v5.pdf

The PhantomHD does 2k @ 1000fps to RAM. That tells you a lot about bottleneck: it's all about the storage bandwidth, at least with their system.

I wonder (for RED) if the limiting factor is the same (storage bandwidth) or some other component of the system (speed of the sensor, onboard FPGA processing capability? I vaguely remember Jim mentioning this as an issue - i.e. theoretically you could encode more/faster but then you have to hook up a heat exchanger and a mini fridge to the camera, in addition to doubling the size of the camera body and adding to the cost :P).

I haven't heard anything about RED-RAM in this discussion, but it's still in the store so I guess they're shipping it. That does suggest the limitation lies elsewhere in the system, probably the sensor?

Anyway, everyone keep in mind you are talking about a camera (well, body at least) that can be purchased with 4 1/2 days of the rental rate for the Phantom? I certainly wouldn't _complain_ if we could get 240fps to a RAM module from windowed 2k, but at the same time if RED delivers anything in the range of what Jim et al have been talking about here the thing is unbelieveably cheap for its capabilities.

Whee,

_a

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Alex,

We don't have many details, but have been told that most of the frame rate limitations are internal to the camera and not the storage. The RED RAM comes in the same form factor as a RED DRIVE and is solid state (FLASH) media inside instead of magnetic hard drives. It's not the same sort of RAM that you find on a Phantom, which is essentially high-speed DRAM like the RAM in a desktop computer, but lots and lots of it.

The Mysterium sensor is limited to scanning at 60Hz for the full sensor area and 120Hz for the 2K windowed area. Additionally, RED DRIVES, RED RAM and the FLASH modules all connect to the camera via Serial ATA interface, which is also not fast enough to handle the full uncompressed output of the camera.

RED and Phantom are two very different systems both in purpose and how they are designed and implemented.

[Alexander Black]

hi Jeff,

I'm sure you saw my other post on "limiting factors" - I'm certain there are many other design tradeoffs made by Vision Research to get to 1k fps @ 2k. I haven't (though might soon!) used one for production, so I don't have a "real" opinion.

I wasn't aware that RED-RAM was Flash, I thought it was (intentionally for speed, but that question has since been answered) SDRAM ;)

So, like I said somewhere else that I'm too lazy to find, I wonder how much Jim will charge for the guts upgrade when they can do 4k full frame at 2400fps (hehe).

All of this is hilarious, I can barely believe I'm talking about a tangible object which will record even 2k at 100fps to a drive which I can then comfortably edit on a freaking laptop. Not so long ago I was working on a 180MHz PPC which was the new-cool thing. Video? Uh, yeah, sort of... Now it's 4k? Suuuuuure!

_a