RED Film School Proposal

[Erik Greensmith]

Mahalo,
I'm currently attending the Media program at an arts college fancily named the Sheridan Polytechnic Institute up in wintery Kanaduh and have been trying, or tried, my darndest to convince my program technical coordinator to pick up a Red body. No such luck. What did they decide was a more worthwhile system? Two XDCAM's. I now get to dance the 25 megabit MPEG-2 shuffle and watch my shots vibrate in artifact-filled joy. I'm not bitter in the least. Below is the link to the "formal" proposal I sent this short-sighted man and somehow I feel it neccessary to share with you all. Please, let me know what I said that apparently scorned my school from making their first wise decision. Cheers.

www.redfilmschoolproposal.cjb.net

[mikkowilson]

Ok, I'll comment as I read.

The first problem I see is the title page. Schools are not democratic. They don't like to see students with any amount of power, as the teachers are automatically presumed to be more knowledgeable - which is true.
I think your subtitle makes the document seem somewhat rebellious.

"What the hell am I about to read?" also sounds very condecending.
To be brutally honest, if I was reading this as a teacher or other high ranking school official, I'd stop right here. Your document doesn't show any respect to the reader.

The furthur jokes and misspellings (2.3 "Edukation") don't make you seem very serious either. Words like "Daydreaming" arn't paticularly convincing either.

Unfortunatly the whole document comes off as very unprofesional. It also provides very little actual information that would help convince me to buy the camera.

A full re-write, perhaps with the assistance of a teacher who shares your view, woudl be necesarry for it to be a convincing proposal.

- Mikko

[Mike Seymour]

Since you raised it...
At fxphd.com we will be doing RED courses on line, covering both camera - and in particular workflow - especially with things like the CODEX (codexdigital.com) and Assimilate, FCP, Shake and DI.

We will have guest DOPs covering filming, with technical and visual effects experts covering post production. For us the secret is to show producers an end to end solution that covers On set to effects, editing and grading.
RED will be brilliant but to work in production we need to show a complete workflow that solves everything from timecode to DVD rushes. People need to see everything from on set split monitoring to final film output is solved. Of course a large part of this will be how to film to get the most from the camera, (which will still be of course composition and lighting).

But we'd really like to hear from you what you would like to see? fxphd.com is owned and managed by practicing professionals - so we really value your opinion. What would be useful? What would you like to see covered?

All our courses will be online as high quality downloads. Current courses cover Lustre, Shake, FCP, AE, 3d tracking Maya etc. We are the worlds first authorised online Autodesk training center.

We have camera reservation 22. So you can tell we are very committed to RED.


Mike Seymour
co-founder fxguide.com
co-founder fxphd.com

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Erik, first of all - well done. I am only criticizing because you asked us to. The first page seemed a bit confrontational and used absolutist rhetoric that probably soured a percentage of your readers right off the bat. Once you moved on to the the technical argument and comparisons to other options you were making solid contact. Frankly, with your permission I wouldn't mind grafting portions of your treatise into my business plan / funding proposal - I think the way you laid out some of the advantages of the "digital negative" approach are compelling and accessible to non-tech savvy types. Unfortunately, no matter how well you stated it, the ability for any given reader to get the point of the whole deal is highly dependent on either a solid technical knowledge base or an open facile mind or both.

Not to quibble but, to my knowledge, as of yet the support of proprietary Avid codecs is not been promised as a feature of RedCine. It may very well be included but I wouldn't go around promising it just yet. If Stuart, Rob or Graeme wants to correct me that's great. I am an FCP guy myself but the Avids are great tools if you don't mind the price.

I have never been a professor at a film school or have an ASC or CSC after my name so my opinion may not carry any weight with your institution but for what its worth: any film school that already has a reasonable exisitng inventory of tripods, PL mount lenses, NLEs for DI/edit and the like - and - the willingness to get something beyond the HVX200 or one of the HDV sub $10K cameras - the RedOne is a very cost effective option. It is also much more environmentally sound than celluloid with less consumable expense for the cash strapped students trying to realize their vision. It also has the makings of becoming a very widely used camera accross a large swath of professional applications that students might find employment in. Why do I believe that? It offers beyond state of the art image quality, moderate storage requirements and a price point at or below any "professional" rigs on the market.

IMHO the only thing that will slow down the train is the time it takes for the transition to IT centric workflows, once that resolves, the Red will spread faster than in the opening scene of a Taratino flick.

[Erik Greensmith]

Man you learn things every day. I had hoped/assumed DNxHD would be part of the REDCINE push-through but if it's a no-go then that's quite a chunk of foot-in-mouth on my part. In the end the workflow would likely be shifted to a DVCPROHD 1080p pipeline or possibly even a PNG/TIFF sequence for mastering since, besides the Adrenaline, we only run FCP on Quad G5's. Keep the good word flowing.

[Scott Webster]

Since you raised it...
At fxphd.com we will be doing RED courses on line, covering both camera - and in particular workflow - especially with things like the CODEX (codexdigital.com) and Assimilate, FCP, Shake and DI.

We will have guest DOPs covering filming, with technical and visual effects experts covering post production. For us the secret is to show producers an end to end solution that covers On set to effects, editing and grading.
RED will be brilliant but to work in production we need to show a complete workflow that solves everything from timecode to DVD rushes. People need to see everything from on set split monitoring to final film output is solved. Of course a large part of this will be how to film to get the most from the camera, (which will still be of course composition and lighting).

But we'd really like to hear from you what you would like to see? fxphd.com is owned and managed by practicing professionals - so we really value your opinion. What would be useful? What would you like to see covered?

All our courses will be online as high quality downloads. Current courses cover Lustre, Shake, FCP, AE, 3d tracking Maya etc. We are the worlds first authorised online Autodesk training center.

We have camera reservation 22. So you can tell we are very committed to RED.


Mike Seymour
co-founder fxguide.com
co-founder fxphd.com


Mike,

Perhaps we could co-ordinate an ANZAC request for the RED team to exhibit at SMPTE 07 in Sydney?

The Red team on the ground in Sydney with courses held by you either side of SMPTE would be a fantastic opportunity for us Red owners downunder.

I'm hoping a similar opportunity will be available at NAB 07.

[Mike Seymour]

Thanks for posting your proposal

Can I ask why you would be expecting to master on Adrenaline Online in both options ? Is that just based on what you have or what you think will work best?

Mike

[Mike Seymour]

Mike,

Perhaps we could co-ordinate an ANZAC request for the RED team to exhibit at SMPTE 07 in Sydney?

The Red team on the ground in Sydney with courses held by you either side of SMPTE would be a fantastic opportunity for us Red owners downunder.

I'm hoping a similar opportunity will be available at NAB 07.

A RED team in Australia - either giving a paper or with a booth would be ideal. May be Graeme Natress on REDCODE???

I would love to see a co-ordinated move around SMPTE 17-20 July, 2007.

The timing sounds right doesn't it ...
I think in addition to that a workshop would be ideal...
I know a few of the SMPTE board members - would you like me to kick start this - or would you ? Perhaps an Invitation from them to Ted ?
I suggest it would also be great to see this extend to show RED in production - so Autodesk, Apple etc may be interested in joining a workshop. Just kicking around ideas ?!?

I guess for me - in addition to any papers or booths - a practical workshop would be great to see and we'd be happy to help contribute.

What camera are U? it says 23- 409 ???



Mike

[Chris Kenny]

Man you learn things every day. I had hoped/assumed DNxHD would be part of the REDCINE push-through but if it's a no-go then that's quite a chunk of foot-in-mouth on my part. In the end the workflow would likely be shifted to a DVCPROHD 1080p pipeline or possibly even a PNG/TIFF sequence for mastering since, besides the Adrenaline, we only run FCP on Quad G5's. Keep the good word flowing.

There's a DNxHD QuickTime codec. I would think RedCine would be able to export to that. I'm not an Avid guy, so I don't know what the situation is with using DNxHD QuickTime files in an Avid workflow. (I assume you can do something useful with them, since the QuickTime codec is, after all, from Avid.)

[Scott Webster]

A RED team in Australia - either giving a paper or with a booth would be ideal. May be Graeme Natress on REDCODE???

I would love to see a co-ordinated move around SMPTE 17-20 July, 2007.

The timing sounds right doesn't it ...
I think in addition to that a workshop would be ideal...
I know a few of the SMPTE board members - would you like me to kick start this - or would you ? Perhaps an Invitation from them to Ted ?
I suggest it would also be great to see this extend to show RED in production - so Autodesk, Apple etc may be interested in joining a workshop. Just kicking around ideas ?!?

I guess for me - in addition to any papers or booths - a practical workshop would be great to see and we'd be happy to help contribute.

What camera are U? it says 23- 409 ???



Mike

We have cameras 23 and 409. If you have contacts on the Smpte board, an official invitation from them for the event to Red or a Red Team member would be a great start.

I'm sure there must be enough reservations out of Australia & NZ, tied in with Smpte, to make the trip worthwhile for Red.

[donatello b]

colleges/schools do NOT buy/build classes around items that are still in development. they need equipment that is available NOW not 6 months from now ... i suggest you try again next fall after RED has been out a few months ...
i've always have found that when colleges have $$ to spend on equipment they need to spend it now or they loose it and they may not get it back for the next semester.

[Mike Seymour]

Ok so - remember meeting you in the queue for RED at NAB- your based in NZ right - I was standing in front of you!

OK well I will email them in the beginning of JAN and we'll see what we can make happen - but do you fancy the workshop idea also?

Mike

[Erik Greensmith]

Thanks for posting your proposal

Can I ask why you would be expecting to master on Adrenaline Online in both options ? Is that just based on what you have or what you think will work best?

Mike

As it stands at the school the Adrenaline is the only system that has HD monitoring, period. For proper grading it's really our only option.

[mikkowilson]

*sigh*

We use Sony HDV and Premiere at my school. I'd be very content with what you have at yours allready.

- Mikko

[Simon Blackledge]

Hey Mike! ;) so your getting one! cool!

Red workflow on FXPHD would be great! It's just the help I'm going to need in 2007.. awsome!

s

[Ben Feuer]

For my two cents, your proposal is also a bit long for an administrator to be reading. More personal, less propagandal, even if it's true; after all, they can read RED's website themselves, can't they?
Just a nice, polite one-page letter, addressed formally by name, to the person you have the best connection with, explaining rationally and personally why you think this camera is a good choice for the students.
And yeah - don't scorn XDCAM, my school was shooting on PD-150s until this year (HVX upgrade!).

[Thomas Mathai]

colleges/schools do NOT buy/build classes around items that are still in development. they need equipment that is available NOW not 6 months from now ... i suggest you try again next fall after RED has been out a few months ...
i've always have found that when colleges have $$ to spend on equipment they need to spend it now or they loose it and they may not get it back for the next semester.

A big hazzard with proposing a product that is in development is that you don't know what the final workflow will be, or what 3rd party has commited to support it.

Schools probably don't have a team of engineers on the payroll to maintain the hardware, upgrade and modify their hardware like post houses do.

I would also add that the proposal doesn't explain how Red One would fit in the school's curriculum.

Not all schools have big budgets for their film/media programs. If the school is making an investment in teaching new students in advanced digital cinema technology, then Red One would fit into that curriculum.

If the school is offering basic media/film courses, with a few advanced courses here and there, maybe Red One would be overkill.

You also don't know what the school paid for those 2 XDCams. Schools don't have to always pay full price for hardware and software, that may be the case here.


If you want this to be a serious proposal for next fall:

1. Drop the sarcasm, see it as a technical paper, just the facts and keep it straight forward.

2. You need to explain terms and technology that may be unfamilar to the reader, like what is DCT and Wavelet compression and why is one better than the other.

3. Do your research based on your own testing. Don't rely on what others tell you, what is theorized in forums or what the developers say. In the end you have to be prove you done your homework and you stand by your results.

4. Be ultra detailed in what the real costs are. I don't mean just the camera, but what it would cost for complete beginning to end workflow.

You had only listed the cost of the body, not what the lenses, drives, etc add up to.

You can also add how the Red workflow would integrate into the school's current workflows, especially if it would cut costs.

6. You have to be realistic about how Red One would fit in the educational environment. Are you proposing an advanced digital cinema course with Red One, or make it available to all media/film students?

Now a personal rant:

In the proposal there is a heading called "We'll Fix It In Post"

It was explaining RedCode, which isn't a post fix, but a workflow tool.

My experience in post has always proved that the "fix it in post" mentality has delayed, busted budgets and even killed more films than I want to count.

There are more tools to help fix problems, but it's still not easy.

Most "fix it in post" situations are done as best as possible, but the results may not be the same as if it was reshot.

It is inevitable that some things just have to be fixed in post, but it's always better to look at it as "enhancing it in post", meaning the better the source, the better the results.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

The ability to manipulate the "look" in post when working with a 12bit RAW 4k image is likely to be substantially greater that 4:2:2 HDCAM or DVCPRO-HD original. I would even imagine it to be a bit greater than what you could do with the result of telecined 35mm film unless the transfer is done very well. It will be interesting to see a year from now if I can still defend that theory. In any case, no matter how wonderful the format is you have to be smart about what you expect to fix in post.

The way I look at it is that 10 or 12bit RAW simply gives you more latitude for alteration of the "look" without seriously degrading the image. I have been working in DVCPRO-HD quite a bit lately and have found it is easy to tweak it a little, but once you try a shift it just a little too much it falls apart incredibly fast and gets butt ugly. I anticipate that the experience of grading RedCode RAW 4k will be similar to what I can do in Photoshop with RAW images from my 8 megapixel DSLR where the final output is 2MP JPEG.

Until we actually have the RedOne in hand and can put it up on a good monitor it is only speculation but I think it is a good reference point.

[Graeme Nattress]

I anticipate that the experience of grading RedCode RAW 4k will be similar to what I can do in Photoshop with RAW images from my 8 megapixel DSLR where the final output is 2MP JPEG.

That's the experience! Just like shooting RAW on your DSLR, and the compression hardly limits the amount of tweaking you can do, which is nice :-)

Graeme

[Mike Seymour]

Hey Mike! ;) so your getting one! cool!

Red workflow on FXPHD would be great! It's just the help I'm going to need in 2007.. awsome!

s


YES starting in the June/July timeframe we will have online workshop classes on the RED and shooting with it - and focused on post pipelines.

Mike

[OwenR]

Hi

Our organisation Rage creates productions using film theatre and music and were currently developing a plan to set up a Community Media Centre ...

And were seriousaly thinking Red! as we want to give people access to the latest equipment which pushes the boundary...creativeness and tecnology converging.....

Owen