Another Remote FF thread...

[CVB]

Ok, some I'm about to pull the trigger on some prototypes in the next couple weeks and I need Redusers' valuable input. Since our last posting regarding our FF we have decided to take another direction. Originally we were going to make one full featured remote that can do some amazing things but we don't want to rush our design and make a crappy product so now we are making two versions, a simple one to be released asap, and a more feature rich version early next year.

Here's the specs for the simplified remote... please note the the receiver will not be dumbed down.. that way when we do make the enhanced remote you won't need to buy another receiver.

Wireless (Zigbee) and Wired control options - wireless range: 1Mile in open, 300 ft indoors
Encrypted transmission - avoids radio interference and no addressing is necessary (no dips to set)
Solid construction - water resistant glass reinforced nylon case, o-ring seals, minimal mechanical components
3 channel selectable control - one axis at a time
Transmitter runs on 3 AAA batteries
Receiver unit accepts 12V-24V power source and connects to three motors
Includes usb connection for use with Red one (TBD)
Receiver has an internal amplifier for control of legacy lens motors with encoder feedback.
Camera start/stop outputs, both toggle and pulse.
Receiver unit dimensions are approx. 3.5"x2.6"x0.75" - the same size as a deck of playing cards
Works with Mirus motion control system - Record FIZ tracks separately or during a moco shot
Selectable control of certain camera functions (TBD)

As was said before, the motors are going to be available from Red. We are going to be supplying the remote. Feel free to ask any questions, and thanks for the help.

BTW...
Price for the impero standard: Transmitter, receiver, and all necessary cables is expected to be around $750 or less.

[Adrian Correia]

fantastic...count me in on this too!

[Shawn Nelson]

That looks really nice, what price are you thinking for that setup?

[CVB]

Sorry, just added that in. The current estimate is $750 which doesn't include the motor.

[Shawn Nelson]

Oh that is a good price! So...how much for the motor?

[Jaime Vallés]

Very cool, Curt! So, what would you consider the main differences between the "standard" and "super-sized" remotes? And what would the price be like for that other one?

[chuck colburn]

Curt,

Will it work with other brand motors?
Even if it doesn't, at your price point if it works well some other companies are going to be sweating bullets. Best build lots.

[CVB]

Shawn.... Thats a good question... Unfortunately I can't say. Red is working on a number of things at the moment and I'm sure that when they get the opportunity they will post a price. I can say that the price of the motor will be lower than anything else on the market which is good right?

Jaime... the standard remote as opposed to the pro will be missing the lcd screen, multiple inputs/buttons, as well as the ability to record and repeat moves. It will also not have the lens database and automatic presets. We are going to try and get the lens breathing compensation (LBC) built into the receiver so theres a chance that there may be some camera integration in the future that will allow it to do LBC. The standard unit will also not be modular... thats something that takes a little time to work out and we are kinda short on that lately ;)

Chuck... yup, it will be able to control one dumb motor (anything thats not a red motor). As long as the motor has an encoder output it will work. We are looking into getting the setup to work with potentiometer based motors as well.. thats TBD. The unit can also toggle a relat circuit to start and stop a camera. We have a serial output/input for interfaceing to other things (TBD) and that port also doubles as a hardwired connection to the receiver when you don't want to use the wireless. There is a USB port on the receiver that will facilitate firmware updates in addition to interfacing to the camera - still working on that too. The main thing is that the hardware will be in place to support future firmware updates.

[Shawn Nelson]

Wait, so you are making the transmitter and receiver but Red is making the motor?

I was hoping you were making the motor. Red is not that cheap on the accessories (Exhibit A: the premium production pack). Would you guess that the motor would be cheaper than the receiver/transmitter combo?

[chuck colburn]

Curt,

I take it the DIR buttons are reversing switches.
Now about your taste in beers. Looks like I'm going to have to bring down a case of Caldera from Ashland, Or. for the LART testing.

[roryhinds]

Hi Curt

Looks and sounds fantastic.
When do you expect the unit to be available?

Focus is a major issue and the cameras are almost here :-)

[CVB]

Shawn, I wouldn't worry too much about the price... You will be pleased and its going to be an awesome system... I don't want to steal Red's thunder by spilling the beans on pricing.

Chuck, I'm actually a heineken guy.. I choose to use PBR because it so nasty that it always sparks conversation.

- And yes, the DIR buttons are for reversing the motors. I went with momentary buttons because I may be duplicating the same buttons on the remote and its always nice to be able to control the state of a user input through software.

Rory, we're trying to get them out around the same time as our moco system - November---ish. We need to get some field testing so there may be a small delay but we are going to have protos up and running in a few weeks.

[roryhinds]

Brilliant!
Do you know when RED will release there motors?

[Adrian T.]

Awesome! Count me in!

[chuck colburn]

Hi Shawn,

Wouldn't count on the motors being much if at all cheaper then the controller. The motor itself combined with the required precision of the drive mechanics (gears, bearings, shafting etc.) can add up quickly. And in the quanity made I don't see custom robotic assembly in the picture. But then again I might be absolutly wrong. lol

[CVB]

Rory, soon. :)

Chuck, yeah, the gear train in those motors is crazy. Theres also a full set of pcbs/electronics inside that adds to the packaging nightmare. Keep in mind that there are going to be thousands of red cameras in the market place next year and every one will need to have the red motors if they want to keep the lens meta data with their footage. I'd anticipate that the volumes will be very good - and that does wonders for pricing. I guess the question is.... what do you guys think the motors should sell for?

[Shawn Nelson]

Ideally? $500. $750 would be okay too, so that a bare-bones kit would be $1500.

Compare this to Birger's setup. He is delivering the mount with wireless and everything you need for just $1450. Now I realize it's different, but it's the closest I have to compare.

[Shawn Nelson]

Keep going Curt, I'm just figuring out how big of a check I need to write you in between this and the matte box :-)

[CVB]

LOL... FYI.. what others are charging focus motors...

Heden M28VP $5,154.00
Heden M28VPT $5,595.00
Heden M28VT $5,100.00
Preston DM1 $2,400.00
Preston DM2 $2,400.00
Palomar M-One $2,100.00
MK-V $2,594.00
Arri CLM-1 $3,320.00
Arri CLM-2 $3,030.00
AVERAGE $3,510.33

With that in mind and withs Red's philosophy what do you think a fair price would be? (I feel like a sales guy on the late night paid ads)

[Shawn Nelson]

$500. Red's body is $17,500. A Dalsa body is what...? Red's pattern is somewhere between $0.10 and $0.20 on the dollar. So, by that standard the motor should be somewhere between $250 and $750.

[Alexander Nikishin]

I'd love to give one a spin for a feature shoot next month with the #49 RED if possible....

Any beta testing needed?

[Roberto B]

LOL... FYI.. what others are charging focus motors...

Heden M28VP $5,154.00
Heden M28VPT $5,595.00
Heden M28VT $5,100.00
Preston DM1 $2,400.00
Preston DM2 $2,400.00
Palomar M-One $2,100.00
MK-V $2,594.00
Arri CLM-1 $3,320.00
Arri CLM-2 $3,030.00
AVERAGE $3,510.33

With that in mind and withs Red's philosophy what do you think a fair price would be? (I feel like a sales guy on the late night paid ads)these are for ###.com and ***.net users. And not for all.. ehehehe

this is DVXuser2..

pay attention to the redrock micro..

can i be sincere, curt?

i had thought to buy yours but after the redrock announcement, i'll go with you but only if you'll offer a similar price.

[chuck colburn]

Well I've seen the insides of Heden and Prestons and I assume that Arris are the equal and I have to say they are watch like in their quality. The gears are hobbed and ground, a time consuming and pricey process. This combined with the inherent precision required in the location of the parts relative to each other to eliminate backlash does not come cheaply. Then there are clutches to prevent the destruction of lenses if the electronics go ape shit. And as curt said the electronics themselves need to be compact and fit in wierd shaped spaces. All in all not an easy one to pull off. Therefore if RED can offer the equivilant of the best out there for a grand I would be very impressed.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

I'm sorry to say: redrock is a really fascinating idea and not expensive, but for me it wouldn't be professional enough. Saw it at NAB an it feels a bit cheap to me. I understand, for that price but I would love to pay a bit more for a better materialisation, there is a german word for that: haptisch. My feeling is, that Curt and his brothers will find the best solution between price and professionalism.

[CVB]

Alexander, the protos that we are making are only board level... we may be able to make some SLAs but theres a lot going on at the moment. I'll see what we can arrange.

Filmmaker (sorry I forgot your first name)... the only way we (VFS) could hit redrock's price on the remote is if we used an off the shelf enclosure, got rid of the zigbee wireless transceiver, and used very low cost connectors. At that point our product would have a number of glaring problems... mainly that there would be much more noise in the system which translates to crappy footage or lost time trying to find another channel that has no interference. One the connector side... you get what you pay for, if we use crappy connectors then the product might last a year then be worthless. As far as the enclosure goes, I refuse to use a standard off the shelf box... it just looks tacky. I come from an industrial design background and I would rather eat dirt (no offense chuck) then make a product that looks like crap... regardless of its functionality.

I appreciate everyones admiration for redrock products as they are making a market accessible to a number of people that would otherwise be relegated to rentals. I look at the redrock as being for individuals who are stepping up into the tv/cinema market rather than stepping down and as such their pricing is effective.

I just want everyone to know that the pricing on our stuff and reds stuff is not to ream you, it really is the minimum that needs to be charged to cover the manufacturing costs and overhead of the respective companies. Transceivers, custom plastics, precision gears and motors all cost money. Engineering something that is effective, fast, easy to use and wont require duct tape to adapt to different cameras is not always an easy thing to do.

BTW, redrock is doing a great job at making a motor/remote that will probably function very well, but they can't compete with the silence, speed, torque, and efficiency of a Heden, Arri, or Red motor. If I'm wrong on then I apologize.

[chuck colburn]

No offense taken Curt....I think?

[CVB]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=61260&postcount=21 :)

[Shawn Nelson]

I think Cavision is a much better example of nearly matching Arri quality but coming in vastly cheaper on their 5x5 matte boxes and FF units. The Redrock matte box at NAB (I stopped by their booth) did indeed appear quite shoddy, though I've heard they've improved it considerably since then.

[chuck colburn]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=61260&postcount=21 :)


Hahahaha!
Forgot about that. But I'm still open to offers. lol

[CVB]

I guess I'm not trying to say that price instantly equates to quality...
How about a car analogy... a toyota corolla is a car, a ferrari F430 is a car. You can drive both of them on the road and they will get you where you need to go. The toyota an excellent piece of engineering and the ferrari is as well but the toyota isn't necessarily a POS just because it costs less. All that matters in the end is that you get a car that fits you needs and that you understand that theres a fundamental difference between a toyota and a ferrari. You will not get a ferrari for the cost of a ford. I would equate Red to being a used ferrari, but one that has maybe 10 miles on it and is owned by an old lady who is going to sell it to you for $17000 because her husband is cheating on her with a younger woman. You are getting an awesome deal but are paying more than a corolla.

[chuck colburn]

Too funny!
I got a Jaguar XJ-12 for $500.00 that way. And the women wasn't old!
But as you say the quanity of an item sold has direct relation to the price it can be sold for. But quality combined with durability and precision is going to cost X amount. RED can do it cheaper because they only have to print three letters on the item insted of four like Arri does. lol

[Michael Lindsay]

Hi Curt

Is it possible to have 2 controllers (vfs) linked to the zigbee.. The ability to control simultaneously focus and zoom/iris would be good..

regards

Michael

PS Are there no encoders in Red's lenses? Cooke? i-lens??

[Shawn Nelson]

Woohoo! Shawn loves VFS :-)

[CVB]

Michael... We're already on that. You can network the remotes to one receiver. To map a remote to the receiver you just press the "Pair" button... the remote will start flashing all its leds then you just press one of the buttons to lock that remote to the receiver. After the remote is paired to the receiver you can press one of the axis select buttons (zoom/focus/iris) and it will be controlling that axis. If you need to use another remote to control a different axis you can go through the same procedure to add another remote. The system will not let you select an axis that is already under control on another remote. The tricky part about the three axis is that its tricky to use without a reference.. ie if you have been using it for focus then jump to iris its not going to have any marking that can guide you. Its great if you just want to jump over to zoom and make an adjustment while looking at a monitor though. I'm looking into what it would take to toss a linear scale on the standard remote... basically make it two axis... I'm trying not to make it too complicated so we can get this thing shipping asap.

Basically there is minimal setup time... no searching for good channels or setting dip switches. The motors have an auto calibrate button that will find the lens limits so there is no need to adjust dials to set the limits. The entire process should take less than 30 seconds.

I don't know if there are encoders in the red lenses... but if they are setup for the i-lens then one would assume so. I could be wrong on that.

Shawn... aren't you a enginerd too? I thought I read that in an older post somewhere

[Shawn Nelson]

yeah, BS - Computer Science, Summa Cum Laude, blah blah. (sigh). I generally try to hide it, as I feel it somewhat discredits me as a director (what I want to do), although it does come in very handy in being able to "get" the tech stuff in a moments notice and move on to tackling the creative. That stuff is more interesting!

[T. Glen Phelps]

Curt, will the receiver unit talk to the Birger EOS mount?

Tracy

[Finner]

Curt will the controller have a slide to control a stop motor?

Will it have variable rotation distance setting for short focus throw lenses.

I like the simple design and look of the unit. I could see this being the choice for many.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Curt, I think what Finner's really asking for is a Hoff-ometer..

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/347/hasselhoffianrecursionjy1.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[CVB]

Glen, I've been talking to Erik and we're going to make sure the hardware is in place for a collaboration in the near future. I don't foresee any issues with making that happen.

Darren, Glad you like it :) We really think that two versions is the way to go.. especially at our price I don't think anyone feel cheated if we come out with a better one next year. Plus the receiver will carry over to the pro model so you can buy just the remote when it becomes available.

For the iris motor... we are trying to see if we can work a slider in but the main thing im worried about is wear and tear. A pot based slider is really noisy and they tend to leave gaping holes in the enclose that let moisture and debris in. I'll do my best to figure out something elegant but no promises :)

For the range scaling thats not a problem... the system automatically finds the limits of the lens and automatically scales the full range of the knob to the range of the lens throw. If you need to tighten up on a specific area of the lens throw then that might be something we can do as well.

Alexander... you are truely a sick man ;)

[T. Glen Phelps]

Curt,

I was looking at the Cmotion system at Cinegear and they had one very interesting feature: a beautiful young Austrian girl to demo the system. Got anything like that?

Other than that, it looks great!

[CVB]

Unfortunately thats the one feature we don't have at the moment. I'll see if have that ready for next years NAB ;) I know who you are talking about though, she came by our booth at NAB this year.

[Finner]

Darren, Glad you like it :) We really think that two versions is the way to go.. especially at our price I don't think anyone feel cheated if we come out with a better one next year. Plus the receiver will carry over to the pro model so you can buy just the remote when it becomes available.

For the iris motor... we are trying to see if we can work a slider in but the main thing im worried about is wear and tear. A pot based slider is really noisy and they tend to leave gaping holes in the enclose that let moisture and debris in. I'll do my best to figure out something elegant but no promises :)

For the range scaling thats not a problem... the system automatically finds the limits of the lens and automatically scales the full range of the knob to the range of the lens throw. If you need to tighten up on a specific area of the lens throw then that might be something we can do as well.

Alexander... you are truely a sick man ;)

Ya I had read that the pro-controller will work with reciever and that is great.

As for a seperate iris control it is a bit of a must. Most well trained focus pullers will always take a quick look at their focus and iris on a controller everytime roll camera is called before rolling the camera. Considering the VF remote unit will become the main tool a focus puller of mine will use I would find a seperate control for iris a must. If a slide is a problem another wheel puck system would be an okay choice. Just please don't make the one wheel have a switch that allows it to control different motors. This would just cause often mistakes.

The automatic setting for the focus throw on the controller will be a great feature.

By the way Alexander is really not that sick he just has a bit of a crush on me.

[Shawn Nelson]

Unfortunately thats the one feature we don't have at the moment. I'll see if have that ready for next years NAB ;) I know who you are talking about though, she came by our booth at NAB this year.

You had a booth at NAB? Damnit! I would have came. It was my first year, I was a bit bad about planning things out, I didn't even know that Apple had an event that I could get into. My goal for next year's event is to not be so clueless about goings on. I heard the party to be at was the AJA party and I didnt't make it to that either!

[T. Glen Phelps]

This is probably a silly question, but could two remotes be used to "talk to" one receiver to control both focus and iris?

[Alexander Nikishin]

By the way Alexander is really not that sick he just has a bit of a crush on me.

:love:

[CVB]

As for a seperate iris control it is a bit of a must. Most well trained focus pullers will always take a quick look at their focus and iris on a controller everytime roll camera is called before rolling the camera. Considering the VF remote unit will become the main tool a focus puller of mine will use I would find a seperate control for iris a must. If a slide is a problem another wheel puck system would be an okay choice.
We can map toe separate remotes to one receiver... see glens question...
I'll do my best to get a slider in there but like I said before - pots suck. If I can find a solid state solution that would allow me to put a mechanical slider in place that is sealed off then I'll go that route.



Just please don't make the one wheel have a switch that allows it to control different motors. This would just cause often mistakes.
It will be able to do that... what if I make it hard to accidentally switch the axis... maybe a lockout switch to prevent accidental button presses?


This is probably a silly question, but could two remotes be used to "talk to" one receiver to control both focus and iris? Yup, we can do that...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=65793&postcount=34

[Michele Gavazzeni]

Very nice design
I'd like to buy one of these

when are you going to put it into production?

[CVB]

Michele, we expect to have it out by the end of the year. BTW.. here's another view of the remote with a neck strap loop and serial port connector for hardwired use.

[Bruce Allen]

So where's the big white disc for making marks? Can you slot that in? So far, RedRock's seems more usable for filmmaking.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Michele Gavazzeni]

Hi Bruce
i think the white disc is under the knob

you can see the marker

[CVB]

So where's the big white disc for making marks? Can you slot that in? So far, RedRock's seems more usable for filmmaking.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Bruce, can you clarify what you mean by its more usable for filmmaking? What makes it more usable? If there's something wrong with our design then by all means let me know - I want to make this something that people will use.

BTW.. the white disk is actually a drum. I have found that its a little easier to write the numbers down. With the flat design it seems like the knob is always in the way. Maybe thats just me :)

[Brian Valente]

I'm sorry to say: redrock is a really fascinating idea and not expensive, but for me it wouldn't be professional enough. Saw it at NAB an it feels a bit cheap to me. I understand, for that price but I would love to pay a bit more for a better materialisation, there is a german word for that: haptisch. My feeling is, that Curt and his brothers will find the best solution between price and professionalism.

Well again, what we showed was a prototype, and does not reflectthe final build quality. That's the risk that's taken when you show proto gear - people can easily mistake it for the final product. Most of it was printed via a 3d printer, so there you have it.

Regarding price/performance in general, I can't speak for Curt but I suspect he may look at the same opportunities Redrock does. The film (or should I say filmmaking) equipment market hasn't changed much over the years, and as a result the products are typically either well built and ungodly expensive, or poorly made and only sort of ungodly expensive. The opportunity exists to bring good quality products to market based on advances in good design tools, modern manufacturing, and (at least reasonably) smart people. The price Redrock charges reflects what we believe is a reasonable price to pay for a fully functional piece of gear - price *is* a design consideration, much as price *is* a buying decision as well. I don't think anyone would argue preston or arri is a junk product. If we all could afford them we wouldn't be building 'em. Now, are you going to get twelve cupholders and a 1000hp ducati engine in the non-arri "car"? Probably not, but that's the great thing - we broaden the spectrum of options. You can decide for yourself what price/feature set meets your needs.

I am perfectly content for folks to underestimate Redrock products, and find they are better than expected. Much preferable to the other way around :)


Brian

[Priyesh P.]

Hi Curt,

what do you mean with "drum"?

I think a tiny confusion to me is that the disk has been recessed at the bottom.
Maybe a little question for ACs or people with more hardcore focus pulling experience (Finner?): Do you map the lens markings to a 360 degrees arc or just a half arc or even less of the disk?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

BTW.. the white disk is actually a drum. I have found that its a little easier to write the numbers down.

This is what he means... I think this is how Alexander would use it <ducks for cover>.

http://www.appliedvisual.com/redimages/alfinnerfocus.jpg

[Priyesh P.]

there is a german word for that: haptisch.

You mean haptic...

[CVB]

Well, the focus ring on our unit is a cylindrical piece of plastic that goes over the knob. There are small arrows on the side of the unit that you pull focus to (like Jeff has above). Its essentially the same way that its done with Bartech. We have arrows on both sides so if will work right or left handed. The main reason for recessing the knob was to reduce the overall height. We wanted to make it compact enough to put in your pocket if you don't want to use the lanyard.

[Michele Gavazzeni]

maybe you already told this but anyway... the controller can store and repat the movements?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

One thing I see looking at this design... Just visualizing how I would end up holding this over long periods of time, it would be in my left hand, with the face of the controller facing to my right for easiest access to let my right hand turn the dial. The markings on the drum would be nearly straight on -- this is good. I'm not sure what to make of the buttons on the face.... I would want something that could be controlled without looking and without trying to hit flat buttons to toggle modes. But a device that could be picked up and you knew just which function would do what. I like Finner's suggestion of the slider as a possibility. Another couple ideas that come to mind are: What about a multi-position dial. By default it adjusts focus.. Push the dial in and it adjusts zoom? Could be spring loaded so you don't have to pull it out. What about a trigger switch that when depressed and you turn the dial it adjusts one funtion. The trigger could even be a 3-position rocker. 1 position is iris, one is focus, 1 is zoom.

I guess I just see room for errors when the focus puller may be in a hurry and forget to check which LED is lit over which button or presses a button by accident between takes, etc.. Maybe I'm over-analyzing.

The other question I have is about the markable drum. Realistically, how could it work with three separate functions? Or do we assign it to a single function, like the zoom control, and then the drum is disengaged and doesn't rotate when the other two functions are being used?

Edit > When I said above that I want to be able to use it without looking. I mean that the only part of the controller I should have to look at while operating it is the markable wheel/drum and otherwise should be able to operate with my eyes on the set or monitor.

[Priyesh P.]

Well, the focus ring on our unit is a cylindrical piece of plastic that goes over the knob. There are small arrows on the side of the unit that you pull focus to (like Jeff has above). Its essentially the same way that its done with Bartech. We have arrows on both sides so if will work right or left handed. The main reason for recessing the knob was to reduce the overall height. We wanted to make it compact enough to put in your pocket if you don't want to use the lanyard.

Ok, I get it. Thanks!

[Purple]

Hi Curt,
is this correct: the current model has a rotating white cylinder, of which you can normally see about 1/4 to 1/2 of the whole scale ?

If yes, I'd suggest you change that to the standard flat white disc that stays put: much easier to use if your markers stay at the same absolute place at all times, plus then we can always see the full scale.

Just my 2 cents.

[Roberto B]

I am perfectly content for folks to underestimate Redrock products, and find they are better than expected.


Brianword.

[Roberto B]

I'm sorry to say: redrock is a really fascinating idea and not expensive, but for me it wouldn't be professional enough. Saw it at NAB an it feels a bit cheap to me. I understand, for that price but I would love to pay a bit more for a better materialisation, there is a german word for that: haptisch. My feeling is, that Curt and his brothers will find the best solution between price and professionalism.this professional"ism" stigma is just bullshit..

[Bruce Allen]

Bruce, can you clarify what you mean by its more usable for filmmaking? What makes it more usable? If there's something wrong with our design then by all means let me know - I want to make this something that people will use.

BTW.. the white disk is actually a drum. I have found that its a little easier to write the numbers down. With the flat design it seems like the knob is always in the way. Maybe thats just me :)

I'm by no means a pro focus puller. I'm just a low-budget wannabe-director type. Anyway, when I shoot, this is my process:
1. Rehearse blocking with actors and camera team.
2. Figure out marks. This means I can tell an actor "go to position 1" and the actor will go to a specific spot. At the same time, the camera folks focus the camera for that mark (usually with the Maglite trick since the lenses we use are never quite right ;) and draw a little line on the white disc with a dry erase marker as a reference.
3. Repeat for a couple more positions. Usually no more than 1 or 2 more.
4. Shoot. During the shoot, the actors probably overshoot their marks. Even if there's tape on the floor. If they're really getting into the performance, the chance of them not hitting a mark perfectly is high. The focus puller compensates for this by a fuzzy, intuitive combination of predicting the future, estimating distance, looking at the lines they've drawn on the disc and looking at the distance markings on the lens. This is the magic "follow" part of the follow focus - to help you "follow" an actor (well, you have to predict a little bit, but anyway...). You need to help that human, intuitive process.

So, high on the priority should be things like:

1. A big white disc for marks
2. A really obvious design where you can see where the focus is at a glance
3. Simple ergonomics that work by instinct. Seriously. If a monkey can use your FF to get a banana it's a good thing. Because as a focus puller you're multitasking. You want to focus on trying to predict when the actor's going to take each step. If you can have most of your brain working on that and only a little monkey-sized portion of your brain working on the whole "how do I use this follow focus" thing, you're good.
4. Really responsive good mechanical design with low lag.
5. Reliable communication between FF controller and receiver

Not so high on my list are:

1. Repeatable focus moves - cool, but not that useful because I'm filming actors not remote-controlled robots. If I wanted to film robots I might do it as an all-CG shot anyway.
2. Recording of focus data - cool too, although all plugins I've used to recreate defocuses in post are so divorced from reality that you'll be tweaking a lot anyway to make it look real. Good starting poit though!
3. Breathing compensation - I have one lens that would work well with this - a Nikon 80-200 AF-D. But again, I can fix breathing in post more easily than I can fix a shot being out of focus. Especially if we record focus data...
4. selectable channel contol - cool but might lead to confusion. I like Finner's idea of a slider for the iris - not confusing. Also, how would you pull focus and zoom at the same time? Two of your devices working in tandem?
5. Wireless range - why is this useful? I fly R/C planes but if I ever put a camera on one the chance of me wanting to do a rack focus shot is low.

Cheers and good luck.

BTW I'm sure a whole bunch of people will point out to me that my focus method is wrong. That's cool, I'm here to learn ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[CVB]

maybe you already told this but anyway... the controller can store and repeat the movements?
This unit will not have flash or an SD card so it can't do record and repeat. The pro version that we are going to get out early next year will be able to do record and repeat though. If this unit is used with our moco head it will be able to record and repeat because all of the data is stored on the head.


I'm not sure what to make of the buttons on the face.... I would want something that could be controlled without looking and without trying to hit flat buttons to toggle modes. But a device that could be picked up and you knew just which function would do what.
No problem.. I get what you're saying... you want tactile feedback on the buttons. I think recessed might be better than protruding so as to avoid accidental presses.



I like Finner's suggestion of the slider as a possibility. Agreed :)



Another couple ideas that come to mind are: What about a multi-position dial. By default it adjusts focus.. Push the dial in and it adjusts zoom? Could be spring loaded so you don't have to pull it out. What about a trigger switch that when depressed and you turn the dial it adjusts one funtion. The trigger could even be a 3-position rocker. 1 position is iris, one is focus, 1 is zoom. I guess I just see room for errors when the focus puller may be in a hurry and forget to check which LED is lit over which button or presses a button by accident between takes, etc.. Maybe I'm over-analyzing. Its funny.. we had the same idea for the spring loaded dial... I deemed it a pain in the ass mechanically and moved on. You may be onto something with the trigger idea though. I would just be concerned that it would be utterly confusing because you have focus markings on the cylinder then jump to iris and the units are all off. Your idea of three rings sounds interesting-I'm just trying to think about how that would work. I'm thinking a lock out feature of some sort will be necessary to make sure your settings didn't accidentally change when its time to roll.


Hi Curt,
is this correct: the current model has a rotating white cylinder, of which you can normally see about 1/4 to 1/2 of the whole scale ?

If yes, I'd suggest you change that to the standard flat white disc that stays put: much easier to use if your markers stay at the same absolute place at all times, plus then we can always see the full scale.


The full scale is visible from the side where the index mark is. Have a look at Jeffs previous post (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=65943&postcount=54).

[chuck colburn]

This is just an idea. And since I've never pulled focus in my life it might be pointless. I see that Curt is using the standard fluted type knob on his wireless controler. These are used on regular type follow focus units because the central portion of the front of the knob has to accept external devices such as whips and longer knobs etc. but on the hand held unit this would not be required. So what I'm thinking here is, why not make the shaft so it can accept whatever type of knob you like. I'm looking thru the Jergens (www.jergensinc.com) catalog right now and they have a wide choice of different size and shaped knobs. But the one that strikes my eye is a soft touch ball which I believe would work well for this use as no matter how you are holding the basic controller you hand would fall on the ball in a consistent manner. And it would not freeze to your fingers when working in sub zero locations. lol
Anyhow just a thought.
Oh yeah, and for the more manly (Finner?) type they even sell brass balls.
Also does the shaft pass thru the unit so that the drum and knob can be mounted on either side?

[CVB]

So, high on the priority should be things like:

1. A big white disc for marks
2. A really obvious design where you can see where the focus is at a glance
3. Simple ergonomics that work by instinct. Seriously. If a monkey can use your FF to get a banana it's a good thing. Because as a focus puller you're multitasking. You want to focus on trying to predict when the actor's going to take each step. If you can have most of your brain working on that and only a little monkey-sized portion of your brain working on the whole "how do I use this follow focus" thing, you're good.
4. Really responsive good mechanical design with low lag.
5. Reliable communication between FF controller and receiver

Not so high on my list are:

1. Repeatable focus moves - cool, but not that useful because I'm filming actors not remote-controlled robots. If I wanted to film robots I might do it as an all-CG shot anyway.
2. Recording of focus data - cool too, although all plugins I've used to recreate defocuses in post are so divorced from reality that you'll be tweaking a lot anyway to make it look real. Good starting poit though!
3. Breathing compensation - I have one lens that would work well with this - a Nikon 80-200 AF-D. But again, I can fix breathing in post more easily than I can fix a shot being out of focus. Especially if we record focus data...
4. selectable channel contol - cool but might lead to confusion. I like Finner's idea of a slider for the iris - not confusing. Also, how would you pull focus and zoom at the same time? Two of your devices working in tandem?
5. Wireless range - why is this useful? I fly R/C planes but if I ever put a camera on one the chance of me wanting to do a rack focus shot is low.


Bruce, Sorry, I didn't see you post.
Thanks for the feedback. Here are my thoughts...

1) & 2) The marking drum that I put in the design is just a guess that I made by mocking up a crude proto in my shop. I looked at cmotion, arri and bartech and it seems like there is no set standard for FF remotes.. some use cylinders, some use disks, some go in between and make a slanted surface. I just picked something that was easy to manufacture and seemed easy enough to see and mark on. If thats not adequate then we can make it more like a standard FF and have a big flat marking ring. Does the size of the remote really matter to anyone?

3) Not sure whats unintuitive about the design.. can you clarify?

4)The latency will be 3ms... thats about 14 position updates per frame at 24 FPS.

5)We are using an encrypted signal from the transmitter to the receiver... The range is about a mile. It doesn't get much more reliable than that.

Now for the things that you don't think are high on your list...
1) & 2) Repeatable focus moves may not be necessary but you guys need to understand that the motors can be used for more than just pulling focus. Here are some other applications: Automated DSLR pan device for doing time lapse and quicktime VR, Motion control platform for rotating small objects - simulate a camera fly around of the object, use three motors and make a mini nodal motion control head, hook a motor up to a mini dolly with your camera on it and do a motion control dolly shot, add cg elements to that mini dolly shot. As you can see... I'm designing the remotes for more than just pulling focus.

3) I agree that breathing compensation might not be of value to those with awesome cinema lenses... I'm looking out for the guys that cant afford decent glass after the spent $17K on the camera body. I understand that you can fix the breathing in post... but thats at the sacrifice of resolution. If you want a full 4K image then you need to fix the problem before it hits the sensor.

4) I agree that the selectable control might be confusing but how would you suggest that I allow people to select which axis to control? I don't want to lock the functionality of a remote to a specific axis and have to make three different versions of the same device. It doesn't seem that complicated to pick a channel and move on.. am I missing something? The multi-axis control was asked a couple times before... have a look back a couple pages and I think you'll find it.

5)The farther the range is the less calls I will get complaining about the lack of range. :)

One other thing is that having the added functionality in the system shouldn't affect you at all... Thats the reason we decided to make a no bells as whistles remote and hold off on the pimped out version.

Keep the comments coming... you guys are really helping me know what matters to you and I appreciate it.

[CVB]

This is just an idea. And since I've never pulled focus in my life it might be pointless. I see that Curt is using the standard fluted type knob on his wireless controler. These are used on regular type follow focus units because the central portion of the front of the knob has to accept external devices such as whips and longer knobs etc. but on the hand held unit this would not be required. So what I'm thinking here is, why not make the shaft so it can accept whatever type of knob you like. I'm looking thru the Jergens (www.jergensinc.com) catalog right now and they have a wide choice of different size and shaped knobs. But the one that strikes my eye is a soft touch ball which I believe would work well for this use as no matter how you are holding the basic controller you hand would fall on the ball in a consistent manner. And it would not freeze to your fingers when working in sub zero locations. lol
Anyhow just a thought.
Oh yeah, and for the more manly (Finner?) type they even sell brass balls.
Also does the shaft pass thru the unit so that the drum and knob can be mounted on either side?

Chuck, the knob that I have in the design is a custom one... I looked at jergens and I didn't see anything that looked reasonable (price wise and features wise) You'd be amazed how much money we save on our BOM by manufacturing our own knob. Another thing is that the knobs are interchangeable in the current design... you cant see it in the picture but the knob is what holds the marking ring in place. We are planning on making several colors and types available... plastic & aluminum and neoprene covered.

The drum can't be mounted on either side.. the only reason I could think of why you would want that would be for right and left handed operation? If so then the buttons would be on the back side of the unit in one of those configurations... Like I mentioned before, there is a index mark on both sides so you can run right or left handed.

[Alexander Nikishin]

This is what he means... I think this is how Alexander would use it <ducks for cover>.

http://www.appliedvisual.com/redimages/alfinnerfocus.jpg

Actually, you're seeing it all wrong Jeff, with me being a Cinematographer, I don't concern myself with focus pulling, so that's how you'd be using it as my AC/Man slave.

Ooooh, burnt! :biggrin:

Curt, the one thing that I find missing from your unit, (keeping in mind the progressive nature of RED's technology) is an illuminated marking band.

Such as this one..

https://www.industryadvanced.com/catalog/product_info.php?&products_id=6

There are many situations where a focus puller will not have adequate light needed to see his barrel marks, so he'll use a tadpole lamp or head lamp, that's just a pian in the ass to use though.

Give us a RED illuminated barrel, that'd be awesome.

I also find a function lock button to be important as you've stated.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Curt, the one thing that I find missing from your unit, (keeping in mind the progressive nature of RED's technology) is an illuminated marking band.

That along with...


Give us a RED illuminated barrel, that'd be awesome.

Would indeed be great.


Actually, you're seeing it all wrong Jeff, with me being a Cinematographer, I don't concern myself with focus pulling, so that's how you'd be using it as my AC/Man slave.

Oh, come on... We all know you work alone and you're a "do everything yourself" sort of guy. :bleh:

[CVB]

https://www.industryadvanced.com/catalog/product_info.php?&products_id=6
Holy crap... $675?? Wow,We're in the wrong market.



Give us a RED illuminated barrel, that'd be awesome.
Done.. I already had that in the plan but I forgot to mention it... I was going to have the immediate area around the index mark illuminated, is that good enough?

[Costelloe Michael]

Dude,

This is some serious kit for the price point. If you need repping in the UK PM me and we'll do the deal now!

Mike C

[chuck colburn]

Curt,
Good show! Can't imagine what I was thinking about the knob and scale being on the other side. lol
I'm sure you know that the eyes are most sensitive to green light.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Holy crap... $675?? Wow,We're in the wrong market.

Done.. I already had that in the plan but I forgot to mention it... I was going to have the immediate area around the index mark illuminated, is that good enough?

Probably good enough, but wouldn't it be just as easy to illuminate the whole thing? A couple LEDs inside a translucent barrel... I'm just thinking this because outside of the area immediate to the index mark, it might be nice to be able to glance and see where another mark is and think "OK, another quarter turn..."

[Erik Widding]

I'm sure you know that the eyes are most sensitive to green light.

That is why red is actually the preferable color. Green will wreck night vision. Red won't.

[chuck colburn]

Yeah but who is pulling focus in the dark?

[Alexander Nikishin]

Yeah but who is pulling focus in the dark?

You'd be surprised at what some AC's are expected to do and where they're expected to work.

Pulling in the near dark is a common thing though, for instance, tracking an actor and steadi op. through a dark alley with pools of light. It happens all the time.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Curt,
Good show! Can't imagine what I was thinking about the knob and scale being on the other side. lol
I'm sure you know that the eyes are most sensitive to green light.

Yes, but isn't red light better for applications within the dark as it doesn't provide as harsh of a contrast as green? And because our eyes aren't as sensitive to it, there's less adjustment for our eyes when looking at something under the red light and then at something out in the dark... Always thought this is why red lights were the choice of astronomers, and military night ops.

Edit> Birger beat me to it. That'll teach me to start a reply and then sign for a FedEx box and come back to finish.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Holy crap... $675?? Wow,We're in the wrong market.

Done.. I already had that in the plan but I forgot to mention it... I was going to have the immediate area around the index mark illuminated, is that good enough?

It would be preferable as Jeff said to have it completely illuminated as is the illuma-knob.

But if it isn't possible to manafacture, your solution is more than welcome.

[Erik Widding]

Edit> Birger beat me to it. That'll teach me to start a reply and then sign for a FedEx box and come back to finish.

:shiftyph34r:
Fedex bring you any cool toys?
:bye2:

[Joel Kaye]

3) I agree that breathing compensation might not be of value to those with awesome cinema lenses... I'm looking out for the guys that cant afford decent glass after the spent $17K on the camera body. I understand that you can fix the breathing in post... but thats at the sacrifice of resolution. If you want a full 4K image then you need to fix the problem before it hits the sensor


To me this sounds amazingly helpful but I don't have a clue how you can achieve this. Do you crop on the fly by talking to the camera?

[Clayton Harper]

BTW.. the white disk is actually a drum. I have found that its a little easier to write the numbers down. With the flat design it seems like the knob is always in the way. Maybe thats just me :)

I like the drum because it makes it harder to accidently wipe your marks off. I find I constantly rub the top disk on the bartech with my sleeve by accident.

[Adrian T.]

Concerning the illuminated barrel: this is a "must have" feature. But it should be possible to turn it off.

Concerning the buttons Z, F, I: they are way too prominent now. I believe once a unit is established as a focus control, it will be used as such and nothing else. Otherwise there's too many possibilities for errors like being in the wrong mode or shifting the marks by turning the barrel in a different mode. I suggest making them a small recessed three position switch or a small push button which cycles through the modes. Maybe you even want to hide the switch/button inside the battery compartment, having only the LEDs on the surface showing you what mode has been selected.

My 5 cents...

[CVB]

The scheme as its set now is that you hit the "Pair" button on the receiver then hit a "Pair" button on the rear of the remote. Once the receiver and transmitter have been paired then you need to tell the receiver which axis you would like to control. I could just put two recessed rotary selectors to select the axis to control for each input... assuming I find a nice way of doing the Iris slider. Would that work?

For the illuminated knob, that shouldn't be a problem. I was just trying to keep the current consumption low so you wouldn't have to keep replacing batteries. With the current design you should be able to run the transmitter for 8-10 hrs on three high end AAA batteries.


To me this sounds amazingly helpful but I don't have a clue how you can achieve this. Do you crop on the fly by talking to the camera? To get rid of the lens breathing isn't easy. You basically need to generate a lookup table for every focal length of the lens. So if you are at 55mm and then do a rack focus you need the data to tell the zoom motor how much to compensate for every position change of the focus at that particular focal length. You are effectively zooming while focusing to get rid of the breathing.
When you are in between focal lengths.. ie 55.5mm then the system has to interpolate between two different datasets. The math isnt too bad, its just the setup to get the data is a pain.

I'll be working on getting an automated solution early next year so we can get a lens and characterize the breathing... then we can provide the data to everyone online such that you can download it to your controller. Luckilly I did vision processing on robots back in school :)

[jaadgy akanni]

To get rid of the lens breathing isn't easy. You basically need to generate a lookup table for every focal length of the lens. So if you are at 55mm and then do a rack focus you need the data to tell the zoom motor how much to compensate for every position change of the focus at that particular focal length. You are effectively zooming while focusing to get rid of the breathing.
When you are in between focal lengths.. ie 55.5mm then the system has to interpolate between two different datasets. The math isnt too bad, its just the setup to get the data is a pain.

I'll be working on getting an automated solution early next year so we can get a lens and characterize the breathing... then we can provide the data to everyone online such that you can download it to your controller. Luckilly I did vision processing on robots back in school :)

Now this is something I've been dreaming of. Curt, I think I can learn to love you:biggrin:

[CVB]

lol, I didn't even mention what we have to do when you adjust the zoom while doing a rack focus :)

Everyone seems to think that they don't need motion control, heres an idea we are thinking about... how about auto vertigo effect? Since we have control over zoom, focus, and Iris we can provide a simple encoder that you can put on your dolly that will automatically adjust the lens as you do a push in to get the classic vertigo look. That would probably be a few months after we ship though... we can't do everything in a few months.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

:shiftyph34r:
Fedex bring you any cool toys?
:bye2:

Nope. :( ...Just some legal documents.

[CVB]

So your rich uncle died just in time to pay for the camera?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Unfortunately no... This involves money going away from me. :bye2:

[Dominique Grenier]

To get rid of the lens breathing isn't easy. You basically need to generate a lookup table for every focal length of the lens. So if you are at 55mm and then do a rack focus you need the data to tell the zoom motor how much to compensate for every position change of the focus at that particular focal length. You are effectively zooming while focusing to get rid of the breathing.

So, that'd only work on zooms, right? With a prime lens, you'd be on your own...

[CVB]

I could be wrong but I always thought that the high end primes don't have noticeable lens breathing. I've only seen it in still and ENG type lenses. I think all lenses have breathing, its just a matter of the magnitude.

[Finner]

I'll do my best to get a slider in there but like I said before - pots suck. If I can find a solid state solution that would allow me to put a mechanical slider in place that is sealed off then I'll go that route.

Slider would be the best option for this. Another different spinning ring would be an okay option for this. If it does not have a seperate system on the controler for the iris it would be quite a big flaw.


It will be able to do that... what if I make it hard to accidentally switch the axis... maybe a lockout switch to prevent accidental button presses?


The problem I see is not as much an accidental button press as when the first has to do an iris change and forgets to switch it back to the focus setting and when you go to roll they change the iris when they think it is on focus. This will forsure happen if any of the iris/zoom/focus can be switched to work with any one control system. After this happens a few times to a focus puller they will soon hate and refuse to work with the system. A lot of film procedures have multiple back up procedures to protect a person from making mistakes and work very well. A multiple use control focus wheel is big big trouble and I would recomend to steer clear of that option. Also you need both markings of the lense focus and iris on the controler and having them on the same barrel (disc) would be very confusing.

Other then the seperate iris control issue I mention I do very much like the design and functionality of the system you have so far. It is very simple and very good. I have worked with pretty much every remote system on the market throughout the years and from what I have seen so far the size, simplicity and functionality of the system you show here if it works well I would say could be better then them all.

I like the barrel illumination idea but a seperate iris control is of much higher importance. Both would be great.

[Finner]

BTW.. the white disk is actually a drum. I have found that its a little easier to write the numbers down. With the flat design it seems like the knob is always in the way. Maybe thats just me :)

This is a great option and I like the thick drum to mark on idea. A really great option would be the ability to make quick drum changes. This way the 1st could mark all the lenses focus distances on the switchable drums with permanent marker and have a drum for each lense that sits in the case beside the lense it is for and the focus puller can just make quick marks on that disc with a wet erase marker for some shots. This has two big advantages 1 for the focus puller it will save them a lot of time 2 for you because you can sell extra drums for $10 each and make some extra cash.


One more thing that bothers me with the system. Environmentally AA batteries in this system are a bit of a crime against our world. Please consider selling them with a charger and three chargeable rotateable battery packs instead. I and I am sure many others would be happy to pay more for this. I know people have the option of buying a AA rechargeable system but I would love to see it not even giving the chance for people to use throw away AA's.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Of all the remotes you've used Finner, which has been the champ?

[Finner]

Preston would be the best in my mind. The Arri is also good. One of the big problems I have found is when it gets quite cold lenses become stiff and the remote motors have trouble having enough torque to spin the focus or iris. Another problem when the lenses are stiff is that some motors have tiny knobs to tighten the motor to the rods and thus when the lenses are stiff it becomes hard to clamp down the motor to the rods tight enough that they dont tilt out and then skip gears.

[Priyesh P.]

Preston would be the best in my mind. The Arri is also good. One of the big problems I have found is when it gets quite cold lenses become stiff and the remote motors have trouble having enough torque to spin the focus or iris. Another problem when the lenses are stiff is that some motors have tiny knobs to tighten the motor to the rods and thus when the lenses are stiff it becomes hard to clamp down the motor to the rods tight enough that they dont tilt out and then skip gears.

Do you remember the temperatures when this happened?

[Brook Willard]

Preston would be the best in my mind. The Arri is also good.

Have you ever used C-Motion's system? I thought the Preston was a godsend until I worked with this thing. The C-Motion is remarkable.

[Adrian T.]

I could just put two recessed rotary selectors to select the axis to control for each input... assuming I find a nice way of doing the Iris slider. Would that work?

Much better. :)
But I'd still prefer to have them behind a closed hatch so that it's absolutely impossible to switch them by accident.


For the illuminated knob, that shouldn't be a problem.

Cool! But don't forget the on/off switch to save power. :wink:

[Finner]

Do you remember the temperatures when this happened?

It all depends on the weight of the grease the tech put in the lense but often a strong wind and temperatures below -5c can start to give you grief.

[Finner]

Have you ever used C-Motion's system? I thought the Preston was a godsend until I worked with this thing. The C-Motion is remarkable.

No I have not. In fact it has been quite a few years since I pulled focus so I am a little out of the loop. I have not even seen a C-motion unit though.

[Brook Willard]

I hadn't heard of it until I found it in my hands. I'm certainly not an AC by trade, but I've spent a lot of time pulling focus over the last few years using all of the systems out there. This one took the cake hands-down.

I have some hilariously cheesy video detailing their products that I'm uploading right now. I'll post it in a few minutes. It has the absolute worst talent I've ever seen. Ever. So look forward to that...

[Bruce Allen]

I have some hilariously cheesy video detailing their products that I'm uploading right now. I'll post it in a few minutes. It has the absolute worst talent I've ever seen. Ever. So look forward to that...

It doesn't have the sales girl?

Finner, you'd like the C-Motion. I checked it out a Cinegear - fun! It seems even more expensive than the Preston though...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Alexander Nikishin]

I remember hearing that the C-Motion was around $30,000, yikes. If Opcode comes on anytime soon, he'd know the price.

Finner, I've always found myself questioning why motors had a single-rod clamping system, any reasoning in particular?

Seems to me a double clamp would be much more solid and reduce gear slips.

[Albert Cheng]

The C-Motion is really nice.

A 3 Motor FIZ setup is around $30k and the CDisplay is another $8k so yeah, it's the most expensive setup out there as far as I know. But it's also the most advanced.

[Brian Valente]

Alex

Single rod clamps means you can put two motors across from each other, or closer together. When you start ganging 2 or 3 motors space becomes tight

Brian

[Alexander Nikishin]

Alex

Single rod clamps means you can put two motors across from each other, or closer together. When you start ganging 2 or 3 motors space becomes tight

Brian

Doh! How could I not realize that. :clown2:

[Priyesh P.]

I have some hilariously cheesy video detailing their products that I'm uploading right now. I'll post it in a few minutes. It has the absolute worst talent I've ever seen. Ever. So look forward to that...

Is it that with the blonde? Or that guy? Unfortunately they've taken all videos from their new site...please Brook, hurry up, the curiosity is killing me and it's 11.00 pm here...

[Brook Willard]

It doesn't have the sales girl?

Finner, you'd like the C-Motion. I checked it out a Cinegear - fun! It seems even more expensive than the Preston though...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Nah, not the girl from the booth. She could've sold me anything...


Is it that with the blonde? Or that guy? Unfortunately they've taken all videos from their new site...please Brook, hurry up, the curiosity is killing me and it's 11.00 pm here...

It's a blonde... I don't know if it's "the" blonde. I screwed up on my export settings, so it was all out of whack. I'm re-exporting now and it should be up within 15-20 minutes.

[Brook Willard]

Ok, as promised, here (http://homepage.mac.com/mb38/cmotion.mov) it is. It's a ~140MB file, so I don't know how long my bandwidth will last... but we'll find out.

Curt, you should definitely check this out. Feature-wise... it's about the best system ever. Interface-wise and design-wise... it's not all there. But it's the best system I've used to date. The modularity is fantastic, but the camin and cabelage on the camera is a little over the top. I'm sure there's a more elegant solution. If you're looking for a seriously badass system to take some hints from, well... this is it.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Dude, that thing gives an AC soo much more sex appeal on the set, you can pretty much run the show with that C-display.

Too bad it couldn't control all the features of RED, atleast I don't think it could?

[Alexander Nikishin]

But man, that C-Finder is a bit too weapon-esque for a RED setup, that'd seriously look like a WMD strapped onto RED.

[Curran Giddens]

and the wood handle of the C-Zoom looks like it could be the handle of a another weapon, like a large, sharp knife or machete!

[Sam Druckerman]

Ok, as promised, here (http://homepage.mac.com/mb38/cmotion.mov) it is. It's a ~140MB file, so I don't know how long my bandwidth will last... but we'll find out.


Thanks Brook!

[Matthew Rogers]

So my question now is, is there any reason NOT to just get a wireless FF instead of the traditional FF? It might be $1-$2k more, but it seems worth it to me...

Matthew

[CVB]

Curt, you should definitely check this out. Feature-wise... it's about the best system ever. Interface-wise and design-wise... it's not all there. But it's the best system I've used to date. The modularity is fantastic, but the camin and cabelage on the camera is a little over the top. I'm sure there's a more elegant solution. If you're looking for a seriously badass system to take some hints from, well... this is it. I'm confused.. when I posted the "pro" version of our remote a month ago everyone complained and said it was too complicated and the simplier the better... now everyone is going gaga over the c-motion. Is a $1200 system that essentially has the same features of the c-motion a turn off? :blink:

BTW... that is some stellar acting.

[Brook Willard]

Heheh, I never complained.

When it's done well, it's fantastic. When it's done poorly, it's a nightmare. This one's pretty well done.

[Shawn Nelson]

CVB, you are a strong asset to the Red community, I hope your products do well enough to fuel you a long while.

[Finner]

Curt I am not sure everyone was complaining about your ideas for featues and options. I really believe it was just a reaction to it not having some kind of a markable disc. Features are great and focus pullers will learn how to use them to their advantage its just for many it not having a markable disc made it a no go. So I think the reaction you got was more of a "We can do without all the features just as long as it has a markable disc" kind of attitude. Thus I feel it comes down to there being some key simple features like a focus wheel with a markable disc, iris slide and zoom control system that will be viewed as key but after those are done well other bonus features will be really appreciated.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm confused.. when I posted the "pro" version of our remote a month ago everyone complained and said it was too complicated

I don't think it's too complicated. But depending on the job, the simplified version we've been discussing here may make a lot more sense. I could see myself using the simpler version more often than the "pro" version.


Is a $1200 system that essentially has the same features of the c-motion a turn off? :blink:

Essentially the same features of the c-motion for $1200? Sounds good to me, where do I send the check? Hehe. Have to admit though, the c-motion system is pretty sweet. I love the modularity and the c-finder abilities. Lots of little things there that add a nice touch like the friction setting. I think their night illumination looks pretty crappy.

I don't suppose that with your "pro" version we'll get additional RED camera control, will we? That would be pretty slick to have remote control over frame rates and ramping or other things we could asign the controls to.

[Bruce Allen]

I'm confused.. when I posted the "pro" version of our remote a month ago everyone complained and said it was too complicated and the simplier the better... now everyone is going gaga over the c-motion. Is a $1200 system that essentially has the same features of the c-motion a turn off? :blink:

BTW... that is some stellar acting.

Nope, in that original thread I was very strongly suggesting you look at the C-motion. Here's my post:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=57521&postcount=92

It was pretty damn long. Sorry. Here are CMotion excerpts:

"if you look at the Arri, CMotion, Preston and even Bartech systems, they work and they are accepted by the industry. They all have big white discs"

"If Curt created an amalgam of the current industry-standard systems or just a simplified version that is responsive and easy to use and at a good price I think most people would be perfectly happy."

"And browsing Cmotion's site, I see that the focus of their marketing is on the ergonomics of the unit. They talk about ergonomics before fancy features and that's the way it should be. Things like balance, adjustable torque, exchangable marker rings, the sensitivity of the knob, the good placement of everything, even the goodness of the neck strap! This is the right attitude to take and incredibly important. Because they talk about ergonomics first, we understand that they have their priorities straight and we trust that they have spent time getting it right."

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[CVB]

Well, the disk is in so no worries there - the reason I post in reduser is to get feedback and make sure things like that don't get left out. A number of my engineering decisions are based on "Does it look cool?" So bare with me when I put first renderings up as most likely its not what the final design will be. The other thing is that we're designing features into our products that may seem unnecessary now but you guys don't know what our product road map looks like.

Jeff... with the cmotion system you have to go modular because it takes time to sell your car, then the motor cycle, then sell your children into slavery. If it was affordable then they might not make it as modular as it is. That said, we will do our best to make our remotes as modular as the pricing permits. Adding several $20 lemo connectors to a design really bumps up the price of manufacturing.
As for camera functions - I think stuart already said that info was going to be available so I'm planning on being able to control all of those functions via the pro version.

Edit: Bruce, just saw your thread. I wasn't directing anything at you. I'm just asking that you guys think about everyone in the market for a remote FF, some people are going to have a Red camera and are going to be taking as many shortcuts as possible to get good images off it. If I can make something that will allow someone to take a $500 lens and make it perform to the point where a rack focus doesn't look like a zoom then is that a bad thing?

Regardless I'm going to do what you guys want.... My only goal is that the end product is inexpensive, feature rich, and makes the current players in the field get of their couch and innovate.

[Finner]

we will do our best to make our remotes as modular as the pricing permits. Adding several $20 lemo connectors to a design really bumps up the price of manufacturing.

I personally think many would not care as much about modularity if you can design a focus/iris/zoom remote in one unit at a decent size and at your price point.




If I can make something that will allow someone to take a $500 lens and make it perform to the point where a rack focus doesn't look like a zoom then is that a bad thing?

Breathing lenses happen with some cooke and angenuix lenses I use and there are ways to hide it if you know what you are doing. I would put up with a little breathing any day if it meant the remote had a good focus, iris and zoom control.

[Finner]

Regardless I'm going to do what you guys want.... My only goal is that the end product is inexpensive, feature rich, and makes the current players in the field get of their couch and innovate.

NICE

Thanks

[CVB]

Breathing lenses happen with some cooke and angenuix lenses I use and there are ways to hide it if you know what you are doing. I would put up with a little breathing any day if it meant the remote had a good focus, iris and zoom control. Darren, this isn't a give one feature and take another proposition. I think we can make the unit have good focus, iris and zoom without eliminating other features. :)

[Bruce Allen]

Curt I am not sure everyone was complaining about your ideas for featues and options. I really believe it was just a reaction to it not having some kind of a markable disc. Features are great and focus pullers will learn how to use them to their advantage its just for many it not having a markable disc made it a no go. So I think the reaction you got was more of a "We can do without all the features just as long as it has a markable disc" kind of attitude. Thus I feel it comes down to there being some key simple features like a focus wheel with a markable disc, iris slide and zoom control system that will be viewed as key but after those are done well other bonus features will be really appreciated.

I second that. Go, Curt go. I'm going to stop being nasty now. Of course we'd love all of the features you describe. I was personally getting scared that you seemed to be listing the "optional extra" features ahead of the really important ergonomic stuff.

It's just that if you simply deliver the basics with excellent ergonomics, we'll already be getting a fantastic deal. Ergonomics / price is pretty much the deciding factor behind the purchase for me. I want to be able to give it to a focus puller and for them to quickly be able to work with it and say "wow, this is so easy to use, I can't believe it's so cheap," not go "what the heck is this?" for a day. Ten minutes of "what the heck?" maximum ;) I do enough other unconventional things on set that trying to push a weird follow focus device on the crew might be the straw that breaks the camel's back and starts as whole crew mutiny ;)

Seriously, you should be doing beta tests with real focus pullers. When they approve unreservedly, then you know your product is right.

Let's take the Red for example - the initial cage stuff was a bit wacky. They didn't see it and just thought that they were re-defining the industry, etc... But when they went off and worked with Peter Jackson, that's when suddenly we started seeing the design become much more usable. It also coincidentally moved more towards what is already industry standard. That's why we're saying, if you need a short-cut, just look closely at Arri / Preston / Cmotion.

If you deliver all of the extra features, it moves into the "too good to be true" category. Like getting an iPod with a AM/FM radio, sound recording features, etc ;)

I'm not exactly the biggest Apple fan out there but the fact is that they succeed in human-machine interface design where practically everyone else fails because they work like mad to make it as simple as possible. But if you can make something that has extra features AND is still at a great price point AND at the top of its' game interface-wise, please go ahead! We will be absolutely delighted, of course!

I should also state that since I don't have a Red and am not on the reservation list, you shouldn't listen to me too much. But if Red will sell their Red Motors separately, I'll be very happy to use their motor system and your controller on my HV20 / 35mm adapter rig. When I do bigger projects, I'll rent a Red and your controller will migrate across... if I can't, then I'll buy the Redrock one and rent yours if the Redrock one is insufficient for the Red.

Good luck!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[James T Mather]

Dont know if this has been suggested but it looks like the focus ring could use a removable "snap" plate so that the focus puller can mark up for different lenses - and rapidly switch between them.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Yeah, the water resistance was on my list on our site...
Wireless (Zigbee) and Wired control options - wireless range: 1Mile in open, 300 ft indoors
Encrypted transmission - avoids radio interference and no addressing is necessary (no dips to set)
Mono Graphical LCD - full user interface with numerous features that are easily upgraded
Modular design - all control axis are assignable to any of the three input devices (Force sensor, Knob, or Capacitive slider), right or left handed operation
Solid construction - water resistant magnesium case, o-ring seals, minimal mechanical components
3 channel simultaneous control
Motion control functionality - **record and repeat moves, goto preset positions automatically, settings for speed and easing
Removable battery pack, rechargeable via usb connection
Lens database - choose a preset lens to auto calibrate the motors to a given lens. Fully upgradeable via usb or SD card.
Receiver unit accepts 12V-24V power source and connects to three motors, includes usb connection for use with certain digital cinema cameras
Receiver unit dimensions are approx. 3.0"x2.0"x0.75"
**Lens Breathing Compensation (LBC) - during a rack focus, zoom motor compensations for breathing to keep framing consistent
**Works with Mirus motion control system - Record FIZ tracks separately or during a moco shot

** This functionality may not be in place at time of shipping but will be enabled through future software releases.

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/6222/imperosr8xl1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

YES PLEASE!

[Brook Willard]

As long as the interface isn't like that! :)

[CVB]

Alexander dug up an old rendering... we aren't going to use that design at all.

[Priyesh P.]

As long as the interface isn't like that! :)

Hey Brook, btw, thanks for uploading the c-motion video. That were the guys I meant...the blonde and the austrian...

[Andrew Benz]

Hey Brook, btw, thanks for uploading the c-motion video. That were the guys I meant...the blonde and the austrian...
Man, I have to get my dsl up... the dial up is killing me... I look forward to checking this out and also finally getting to see what the hell Brook's "Eater" is all about...:pinch: :shifty:

BTW, I have enjoyed this thread very much --cheers to all.

[Brook Willard]

Oh man, I forgot I still had that in my signature... It's just some short some friends and I shot.

[Alexander Nikishin]

As long as the interface isn't like that! :)

As long as we have a marking band and a slider, the the lcd panel and all its C-Motion-esque functions are more than welcome.

[luis bustamante]

Oh man, I forgot I still had that in my signature... It's just some short some friends and I shot.

...and it's really good. Pure entertainment I would say...

[Cail Young]

Hi Curt

Is it possible to have 2 controllers (vfs) linked to the zigbee.. The ability to control simultaneously focus and zoom/iris would be good..

I would like to ask the inverse question. Is it possible to control two sets of motors from the same remote?

[CVB]

The remote can control one axis at the moment just because there is only one input. If we add in the slider as a few people are asking for then yes, two axis control at a time from one remote is possible.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

...and it's really good. Pure entertainment I would say...

Yeah, I enjoyed it. Good production value for a small short like that.

[Brook Willard]

Heh, well thanks guys. I only lit the thing.

[Volker Ehlers]

Dear Curt,

Good to see the development.

I agree that ergonomic "monkey brain" simplicity is paramount.
As stated before elsewhere a focus puller doesn't get much time to "look" at the scale and back to a changing subject distance.

Clear "all angle" viewing is another must. (dim glow even better - red spills more likely into set?!?!)

Usually when shooting a camera/lens test for production insurance you will prefabricate scales (with clear tape protected?) and have a left/right combo for your mec ff sitting with lenses. THEREFORE I would love you to go COMPATIBLE and use exactly dimensions of ARRI Scales since you will only benefit by selling a pair for 213,-$ for starters...:shiftyph34r:

Like overall feeling.
As stated before:
Clear- single purpose design for image control ABSOLUTE MUST otherways pros will stay away. If multiple motor control ONLY as set-up option - since it needs to recalibrate to focus scale anyways.
DONT go quick change - double setup - with invitation to accidently ramp iris when focus pull intended. I guess you do that once and your head of department will tell you to hire "proper equipment" next time :wacko:
I guess camera department are not allowed to make mistakes since everyone else can stay at home in that case in the first place.

Some quick thoughts about ergonomics - please excuse the scribble - but most obvious points.

Best of luck
still waiting for chance to put down deposit ;)

[Cail Young]

The remote can control one axis at the moment just because there is only one input. If we add in the slider as a few people are asking for then yes, two axis control at a time from one remote is possible.

I should have been clearer. If I have a stereoscopic setup can I have identical focus pulls on two seperate cameras from one remote?

[CVB]

Heh, well thanks guys. I only lit the thing.I thought it looked great. Good job on the lighting Brook, Its very ominous.



Clear "all angle" viewing is another must. (dim glow even better - red spills more likely into set?!?!) Thats a good point.. I've been thinking about just moving the whole knob upwards. Just FYI.. the reason I'm trying to make this so small is I want to try and see if I can make it work for matte box rail mounting as well. It seems like its getting bigger though :(



Usually when shooting a camera/lens test for production insurance you will prefabricate scales (with clear tape protected?) and have a left/right combo for your mec ff sitting with lenses. THEREFORE I would love you to go COMPATIBLE and use exactly dimensions of ARRI Scales since you will only benefit by selling a pair for 213,-$ for starters...:shiftyph34r:
I'm confused on that point.. are you asking that we make the marking ring compatible with an Arri/Preston ring? They are a little steep - Preston sells their rings for about $40 each, Arri for $20. If you guys really want to pay that much then fine... I'd rather make our own and sell them for $5 each by making the geometry simple enough so the piece part cost is very low.





Clear- single purpose design for image control ABSOLUTE MUST otherways pros will stay away. If multiple motor control ONLY as set-up option - since it needs to recalibrate to focus scale anyways.
DONT go quick change - double setup - with invitation to accidently ramp iris when focus pull intended. I guess you do that once and your head of department will tell you to hire "proper equipment" next time :wacko:
I guess camera department are not allowed to make mistakes since everyone else can stay at home in that case in the first place.I'll make the remote a single purpose to a point. If I can hide a bunch of functionality that doesn't interfere with the "simple" daily operation then I'm going to do that. I've already agreed that we will make the axis selection something that isn't as easy as just hitting the button. I'm looking into adding a slider so you will probably not need to switch axis anyway.


Some quick thoughts about ergonomics - please excuse the scribble - but most obvious points. Thanks for the picture.. I guess I was envisioning the unit being held sideways... kind of like when using a bartech. I'll make some mock ups out of foam to get a better handle on the ergonomics of this... I have a tricky time gauging that stuff because I have giant hands :)
Is the knob really mandatory on a remote? I don't remember seeing that on anyone else's units.


I should have been clearer. If I have a stereoscopic setup can I have identical focus pulls on two seperate cameras from one remote? Yup, we can do that. I'm glad you brought that up.. I would have missed that functionality, its actually really easy. I'll see if I can find an elegant way of getting that in without messing things up too much ;)

[Volker Ehlers]

Hi Curt,

Sorry for being confusing - the ARRI scales sell at 20 Euro each. So a pair is 40. I need 10 pairs for Jan 08 - seriously. So thats 400 Euro for scales. I wanted to make that obvious...
So the answer is yes - on this one it means I don't have to make an extra set of scales for a special hire tha comes onto sets mostly on a daily base.
If bigger budgets take one out for longer it means up to 30 scales less on the truck...
Don't see why you shouldn't be able to stay compatible and reasonable in pricing.

I know for a fact that most will handle the control unit like a pistol. I don't see why you couldn't do a left/right compatible solution. If you can integrate a rotating reference point that can be locked down. If not place reference point at the top.

Any solution for IRIS control should also be easy and safe to LOCK down. Iris should be moved only deliberately whereas focus wouldn't need that feature.

The lever is my own thing and might be overkill - maybe just forget about it...don't know - its something I used a lot and I play with the idea of offering your wired/wireless solution INSTEAD of mech FF - so than it would be nice to have it.

A clear disadvantage is having it in your hands/ round the neck all the time and maybe you can offer a module that mounts(clicks) onto a 19mm rod, so I use it like a mech FF (wired) - and in that case a flexible extention drive would come in handy...adopting mech FF use to get another case off the truck...

Many options.. my2c
All the best

PS:We are looking at getting 2 MB's (1xMB20/1xMB14 sizes) and one FF system Dez07/Jan 08- ...so lets get this done:)

[Priyesh P.]

A clear disadvantage is having it in your hands/ round the neck all the time and maybe you can offer a module that mounts(clicks) onto a 19mm rod, so I use it like a mech FF (wired) - and in that case a flexible extention drive would come in handy...adopting mech FF use to get another case off the truck...

Many options.. my2c
All the best

PS:We are looking at getting 2 MB's (1xMB20/1xMB14 sizes) and one FF system Dez07/Jan 08- ...so lets get this done:)

Volker, as far as I remember Curt announced an electronic focus knob that directly connects to the Red servos, so no need to put a wireless lcs onto the rods.
Curt, is that still up to date?

[CVB]

Yeah.. thats the plan... The wireless LCS also has a wired connection so it may be possible to mount it in lieu of a separate product. It depends on how large this thing is when its done. I'd suspect that people would rather have a very compact unit akin to Birger's knob rather than our remote strapped onto the rails. I've been in contact with Erik and I'm looking into what it would take to make his marking disk work with our receiver unit, its looking promising and I'd rather not double up work if His marking disk will work.

[Corrado Silveri]

Hey Curt,
just a quick info:
are you planning to be at IBC? I can't find View Factor in the exhibitor list...

Cheers,
Elcurado.

[CVB]

Nope, we're a little busy making things :) We will be in Munich for Oktoberfest to celebrate the assembly and testing phase of our Mirus beta units though. I have been in touch with a couple guys in the area and we are going to meet up for a brew/demo session. If anyone is interested in meeting up feel free to PM me and we can arrange something.

The main reason we can't go to IBC is that we're going to be out of town at our manufacturer to assemble the first few units. We'll be back on the 15th of Sept.