Mysterium-X upgrade [Archive]

Bal Deo

09-21-2009, 10:25 AM

What will i get by upgrading to Mysterium-X sensor on red one.
Yes bigger sensor, better quality, higher res
How about REDCODE 225, higher frame rates at 2k, 4k, and 5k.?

Gunleik Groven

09-21-2009, 10:31 AM

Same size sensor
Redcode 42
Same rez
Better quality (in some ways)

Probably:
Better effective dynamic range (but probably the same "real/measurable" one as the bit-depth may stay the same as opposed to Epic)
More overall fun depending on the price/performance ratio and how much of the inner elements of the camera actually has to be changed in addition to the sensor itself.

BUT
THese are guesses and speculations and should soon be forgotten...

Julio Quintana

09-21-2009, 10:40 AM

Same size sensor
Redcode 42
Same rez
Better quality (in some ways)

I'm not sure this is accurate. I was under the impression that you could get the 5K sensor in the RED, but it wouldn't do the higher framerates. But I could be mistaken.

Gunleik Groven

09-21-2009, 11:48 AM

Could be.
As far as I have seen, the pixel-size in MX is the same as the current.
Without changing even more of the boards... Well, who knows, 'cept maybe Jim and Jarrod...

Speculations anyway.

Kinda sorry I bit the bait... :)

Twice...

Bal Deo

09-21-2009, 10:18 PM

i was hoping to get enough info. to make a decision. sensor M-X upgrade or epic upgrade.?

Andrew Gentle

09-21-2009, 10:41 PM

I'm not sure this is accurate. I was under the impression that you could get the 5K sensor in the RED

I'm pretty sure that Jim said that it would be the same resolution, 4.5K. I'll try to find the post... Nah, can't find it, sorry!

Gunleik Groven

09-22-2009, 12:10 AM

i was hoping to get enough info. to make a decision. sensor M-X upgrade or epic upgrade.?

I am totally sure that those will be different products with different advantages....

Imran Farouk

09-22-2009, 12:27 AM

It can't do 5K,Jarred has already stated that the internals can only be pushed so much and 5K requires a massive pipe that Red one doesn't have...
Higher DR, better 4.5K image etc. is probably more likely but not certain...it's said though it can't do 5K...

Jeff Kilgroe

09-22-2009, 08:33 AM

Yousuf Abbasi

09-22-2009, 08:42 AM

Jarred confirmed just a few days ago no new framerates.

Bal Deo

09-22-2009, 09:00 AM

I guess EPIC-X is the upgrade path.

DarnellRandolph

09-22-2009, 09:27 PM

Imran is correct. Jim and Jarred have both said it. With the sensor upgrade, you just get a better sensor for an improved image, more sensitivity, less skew.

Due to the other internals and bandwidth restrictions, all the shooting modes, resolutions, frame rates, etc.. remain the same.

Mysterium-X and the original Mysterium have the same size pixels/photosites at 5.4 microns. The RED One has a "5K" sensor as well, the camera just can't use more than the 4520 pixel width active area. And for internal processing and bandwidth reasons, we're limited to 4480x1920 or 4096x2304.

I'm a visual effects guy, and all I care about in the upgrade is skew reduction.

Has the amount of skew reduction via MysteriumX upgrade been quantified anywhere? Meaning, are the current vs. future sensors read/reset speeds documented anywhere?

Also, has it been stated whether the skew reduction for the RED with sensor upgrade will be any less pronounced than the EpicX's? Meaning, will the EpicX with MysteriumX sensor have less skew than a RED One with MysteriumX sensor?

Jonathan Cooper

09-24-2009, 01:10 PM

I know the frame rates will be the same on the Red One. My question is will it be possible to record 1080pFF on a red one with the upgrade?

Yousuf Abbasi

09-24-2009, 01:21 PM

I know the frame rates will be the same on the Red One. My question is will it be possible to record 1080pFF on a red one with the upgrade?

Sorry, what is 1080pFF?

Jonathan Cooper

09-24-2009, 01:29 PM

It is 1080P Full frame. Instead of cropping the sensor to get a smaller image size the camera uses the full sensor then resizes it in the camera. This allows you to get the full 4k shallow DOF with a 1080p output.

Yousuf Abbasi

09-24-2009, 01:41 PM

Pietro Impagliazzo

09-24-2009, 05:44 PM

That's what I thought you meant, basically what the 5DmII is doing with its APS-C sensor. But why do you want it done in camera, when you can control that in post? To be able to record more footage on a single card? That would make sense..

5D MkII has a FF35 sensor not an APS-C.
And it skips lines to read the sensor fast enough for 30fps introducing artifacts.

RED will do it in a classy way, with a proper resize done in camera.

Maybe there's a time you just don't wanna handle 4K RAW in post, it's better to have this and don't use it than to need it and don't have it.

Jerrod Cordell

09-24-2009, 06:34 PM

Also, if you want to use the RED for live broadcast, it'd be impossible to do it in 4K, so now there's a 1080p option.

Andrew Gentle

09-24-2009, 07:24 PM

RED will do it in a classy way, with a proper resize done in camera.

haha! Not like that tramp the 5D!

Jonathan Cooper

09-25-2009, 05:28 AM

Steven Caesare

09-25-2009, 06:04 AM

My question is if anyone has heard of the Red X upgrade including this 1080pFF. I know that both the all the Scarlets and all the Epics include this option. I just don't know if the Red one with the upgrade will be able to handle it or not.

Not likely. The full demosiac + scaling requires too much processing horsepower for the RED One to do in-camera.

-sc

Jeff Kilgroe

09-25-2009, 08:23 AM

Yep, pretty much... It was discussed in the past and then dropped. I don't think the camera can handle it. All things subject to change, of course...

Justin Anderson

09-25-2009, 08:52 AM

Yep, pretty much... It was discussed in the past and then dropped. I don't think the camera can handle it. All things subject to change, of course...

Which really doesn't bother me at all.

My opinion would be that if you don't have the post production horsepower to convert 4K into 1080p then you shouldn't own a RED, or be in post production.

That's probably a bit harsh, but unless it would be an easy feature to add I'd rather that RED team spent their efforts elsewhere. Like finishing scarlet!

Yousuf Abbasi

09-25-2009, 10:48 AM

Which really doesn't bother me at all.

My opinion would be that if you don't have the post production horsepower to convert 4K into 1080p then you shouldn't own a RED, or be in post production.

That's probably a bit harsh, but unless it would be an easy feature to add I'd rather that RED team spent their efforts elsewhere. Like finishing scarlet!

Yeah but like Jerrod said, for Live Broadcast you can't just do it in post, so I understand why some people want it.

Jeff Kilgroe

09-25-2009, 11:33 AM

If you're doing any serious live broadcast type stuff, you will be feeding directly from SDI outputs into your switching / recording hardware. Or you will probably want a RED Rocket for on the fly CC and transcodes. I don't see the onboard 1080p recording to be a huge issue. Keep in mind that recording 1080p RGB, even 10-bit 4:2:2 vs. 4:4:4, would still occupy about the same amount of storage space or more compared to 3K 12-bit RAW.

Onboard 1080pFF RGB recording would be a nice option to have. But has no impact on any of my purchase decisions for the new cameras. Of course, I don't speak for everybody...

Stuart English

09-25-2009, 11:34 AM

Yeah but like Jerrod said, for Live Broadcast you can't just do it in post, so I understand why some people want it.

Yes but live broadcasts don't occur in 1080p. Only 1080i or 720p.

Stephen Pruitt

09-25-2009, 12:52 PM

So our $4500 buys us a new chip and a new chip only? Geez. I thought it would have new boards to allow it to take advantage of the new chip.

I can't see anyone upgrading their RED for $4500 if you can get a new Epic-X for $10,000. The RED upgrade doesn't seem like a very good deal at all.

But, perhaps, that was the point.

Stephen

david farland

09-25-2009, 03:32 PM

Steve,
you've missed the real point of upgrading the sensor on your R1, which is come FF35 time you're still got a R1 worth $17,500 to trade in for it. People that trade their R1 for an Epic will need to fork out another $32,000! If I wasn't in the hire game, I'd wait....upgrade my R1 sensor until the FF35 came along, in the mean time I'd still have a camera comparable to the Epic X.
D

Bal Deo

09-25-2009, 04:01 PM

Steve,
I'd still have a camera comparable to the Epic X.
D
David i was trying to get some clarification of the advantages of upgrading the sensor.
From the sounds of things I will not be getting "a camera comparable to the Epic X", hence my upgrade path is Epic-X.
I will not get higher frame rates and I will not get higher redcode.

I would rather spend $10,000 and get the features that will be worth every penny.
I don't feel the same with the upgrade of the sensor

Steven Caesare

09-25-2009, 05:22 PM

Wow.

I can appreciate that some folks may not feel the upgrade is a sufficient enough value proposition for them to invest. Fine.

But to say: "Geez. I thought it would have new boards to allow it to take advantage of the new chip."?

I think the connotation with that kind of phrasing is that Red is trying to put on over on you. Let's keep in mind:

-The upgrade will give you greater DR
-The upgrade will likely give you greater sensitivity/ISO rating
-There MAY be skew/reset time advantages (conjecture)

As I see it, you ARE getting significant advantage with the new chip. Perhaps another way to think of it is "Red had enough foresight to put a flexible architecture in place in the R1 body to give me significant additional capability with just a sensor upgrade."

Furthermore:

-You don't have to take advantage of the upgrade
-You can trade in your 1-2+ year old camera for FULL VALUE towards an Epic
-Red has ALREADY delivered more resolution/datarate than you expected to get with the existing Mysterium sensor (4.5k)... they could have deliberately tied those capabilities to the sensor upgrade to provide a sense of additional value.... but that's not their style.

Please go see if you get any of the above options with other camera vendors.

Expressing opinions is valid.. I just don't understand why people choose to do so in a style that's going to piss off the people who are working hard like no other vendor to provide amazing value.

-sc

david farland

09-26-2009, 06:57 AM

David i was trying to get some clarification of the advantages of upgrading the sensor.
From the sounds of things I will not be getting "a camera comparable to the Epic X", hence my upgrade path is Epic-X.
I will not get higher frame rates and I will not get higher redcode.

I would rather spend $10,000 and get the features that will be worth every penny.
I don't feel the same with the upgrade of the sensor

The point is don't consider the R1 to Epic X upgrade in isolation.....if you intend to purchase a FF35 or higher.

Scenario 1
R1 to Epic X upgrade will cost you about ~$5K (depending on free accessories)
Epic X to FF35 upgrade will cost you $32K. Total $37K

Scenario 2
R1 to FF35 upgrade will cost you $14.5K ($19K if you upgrade sensor).

You're paying $18K for the luxury of having 4.5K instead of 5K resolution for six months

your call....

D

Jeff Kilgroe

09-26-2009, 07:53 AM

I ultimately intend to own the EPIC 645. The R1 to Mysterium-X upgrade doesn't interest me all that much, but I can see where it would appeal to others. Lots of unknowns at this point. I personally will probably do the upgrade to EPIC-X since it looks to be a nice upgrade from the One and there could be significant savings with those included modules. It could also be easily a year or more after EPIC-X before we see the FF35, let alone the 645. Many customers and clients I fear will demand EPIC-X over the RED One just because it's the newer and better camera. Regardless of whether they actually need the features or not or even if they understand the technical differences.

I think the Mysterium-X upgrade for the RED One is definitely a good option for some people. It's an upgrade that could help maintain their customer base while they wait for an EPIC-X upgrade. It should help keep a RED One owner competitive amongst others getting the EPIC-X if they can only afford the sensor upgrade and not the full $10K+ to trade-in and build a DSMC kit. At least with the RED One sensor upgrade, the camera would be gaining the new sensor along with its improved sensitivity, range, etc.. Overall better image quality. The upgraded RED One will have functionality not available on the Scarlet S35, such as ramping, sustained 120fps frame rate, etc..

At this time, we don't know how long it will be for the FF35 to arrive after the EPIC-X and we don't know the cost of the modules. I personally may be perfectly content getting the sensor upgrade for the One and waiting for the FF35 brain or even the 645 brain, but it's really dependent on what the savings is by getting the included modules with the EPIC-X upgrade.

I can also see a valid argument for just buying the EPIC-X outright since I can do that as a RED owner and then keeping my One and upgrading the sensor in it and saving it for later to trade-in on the FF35 or 645.

For anyone that will be shooting EPIC-X or Scarlet, any of the Mysterium-X sensor cameras and who will also be keeping a RED One, I think the sensor upgrade will make perfect sense. That way, the RED One shares the same sensor and image properties of their new EPIC and Scarlet cameras while they keep their One for later trade-in or just to keep it for sentimental / nostalgic value.