RED Scarlet for ENG work?

[M. Reilly]

Is anyone seriously considering using any RED camera for ENG work? To what extent do you plan on using it?

I'm of the belief (after reading some workflow posts) that the workflow is no good for time-critical news or the like. Also, I don't think RED will be manufacturing any ENG add-ons like on-camera mic/light mounting hardware.

Am I right in believing that ENG shooters are the bastard children of the "RED revolution?"

I am still somewhat optimistic about the fixed Scarlet.

[Eki Halkka]

I'm of the belief (after reading some workflow posts) that the workflow is no good for time-critical news or the like.

Well, you can just copy the files from the camera and start editing... so it's not that hard.

Scarlets are supposed to do 1080p processed in-camera, in addition to the raw recording, so even if your software doesn't directly support red's raw files, it will probably support red's 1080p.

[Steve Gibby]

Electronic News Gathering (ENG) hasn't been a significant part of RED One production for obvious reasons - the need for RAW to RGB rendering, quick turnarounds, tight deadlines, etc. But RED One has been used widely in Electronic Field Production (EFP), specifically non-hardlined EFP, and quite often that involves hybrid style camera setups and usage techniques - lightweight camera setups, 35mm stills lenses (sometimes B4 lenses too), eye focusing, no matte boxes (screw-on filters), no follow focuses, etc. Some examples of genres using hybrid RED setups are: adventure travel, alternative sports, some music productions, wildlife, nature, some aerials, some underwater, many documentaries, stock footage, and many more genres.

If the option for selectable 1080p RGB recording makes it into the final specifications for the DSMC cameras, and its in a codec that can be edited quickly in ENG editing systems, thus enabling quick turnaround ENG production, then by all means combination news photographers/motion shooters could put those DSMC cameras to good use.

Yes, the fixed lens Scarlet may turn out to be a very good EFP style (especially non-hardlined) and ENG-style camera - especially if it has a selectable RGB recording option. Especially of RED also makes the 2x extender and wide converter lenses they talked about, which can be easily added and removed from the fixed lens.

ENG is the bastard child of RED - but hybrid and EFP production (especially non-hardlined) have been, are now, and will continue to be done widely with RED One - and even more so with Epic and Scarlet to come.

For my take on RED One use in various types of EFP and ENG production, visit my sticky at the top of this forum.

[M. Reilly]

Steve, do you have any hardware solutions you use to get your RED One to operate more like an ENG/EFP-styled camera?

Mounted shotgun mic? Light?

[Steve Gibby]

Yes, I do. I've attached four pics to this post - two pics of a straight non-hardlned EFP RED One setup, and two pics of a hybrid non-hardlined EFP RED One setup.

The shots of the straight EFP setup are old - taken in October 2007 - thus the lack of ET EVF mount (which I always use with the RED EVF), lack of a shotgun mic, and RED Cradle mounting of the drive and battery on the back. I've owned a RED B4 Adaptor since September 2007, and it's in use in those pics. The lens is a Fujinon 16x HD EFP/ENG zoom. What's also missing is a lens hirose to 12v accessory cable to power the lens servo-zoom.

I have more recent straight non-hardlined EFP pics with all those other accessories on the rig, plus shots of different lenses on it - Fujinion 22x7.3, Fujinon 13x4.5, and others. When I can I'll dig those out and post them.

I rarely use those kind of setups B4 lens setups on RED for a simple reason - it restricts me to only shooting 2k footage. Even if the project is destined for HDTV, in my experience it is better to shoot 3k on RED One. When you resample RED 3k footage down to 1080p it look great - much better than B4 2k footage shot on RED One.

Shooting 3k limits me to two lens options - cine lenses or 35mm stills lenses. Cine lenses are much to heavy for their focal lengths to be of much use in hybrid production. I use 35mm stills lenses - they are small, light, have longer focal lengths, and give me the ability to use screw-on filters - something I couldn't do with cine lenses. The last thing I want in mobile hybrid work is to wrestle with the added bulk and weight of a matte box and follow focus - thus the stills lenses, screw-on filters, and no follow focus use.

The other two pics are of one of my RED cameras setup for hybrid non-hardlined EFP work - sporting a Nikon 28-70 f/2.8 zoom (with screw-on filter package), Sennheiser shotgun in a Rode shock mount, Lite Panels Micro light, dual wireless mic system, ET EVF mount, and ET Shock Mount for the RED Drive. That setup weighs 21 pounds - a good weight for mobile tripod and shoulder held work.

I also have several ET Mantis Shoulder Mount units this setup can be put on. For this I just use the shoulder pad portion of the Mantis and use both hands on the Nikon lens like I would with a B4 HD zoom. Changing from the shoulder pad to tripod simply entails quickly removing the shoulder pad, then sliding the rig onto the tripod dovetail.

What you can't see well in those hybrid pics is the cheese plate I have on top of the camera, to which I run a simple bracket out to the smart side of the camera to go underneath the shotgun for support. The wireless mic receiver is mounted on the end of that bracket. The light is mounted on simple L-bracket I found at a photography store.

With Epic and Scarlet, both being smaller than RED One, even more modular, and in many ways more hybrid and EFP production friendly, and hopefully having RGB recording options, doing hybrid and EFP work should be much easier than with RED One.

All pics are of my RED 0008 - I own multiple RED cameras

[David Rasberry]

Nice setup Steve. How well does the B4 lens and adapter perform compared to the still lenses at 2k?

[Nic Spencer]

Hey Steve,

How much does that thing weigh, compared to a DVCPro or similar?

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks David...

The RED B4 Adaptor has excellent glass in it. When I've used top-level HD EFP/ENG zooms on RED One, shooting 2k naturally, the footage has been pretty good - certainly adequate for a 720p , PAL, or NTSC finish.

But when I've tested good still lenses in 2k on RED One, the resulting footage has been a fair amount more crisp. My guess on that is that even though the B4 Adapter is very good, the fact remains that the image has to travel through more glass to get to the sensor - thus a slightly softer image is generated. When using the 35mm stills lenses for 2k shooting, there is just less glass for for the image to travel through, thus a crisper image is generated. The X factor in this is that most lenses are a bit stronger in the center portion of the lens, thus a 2k crop in the center of a good 35mm stills lens is cropping down to the strong portion of the lens.

As mentioned in my previous post, when using 35mm stills lenses on RED One in Hybrid production, I invariably shoot 3k unless I absolutely need frame rates above 60fps, then I may shoot some 2k. The 3k footage on RED using good 35mm stills lenses is gorgeous - crisp, clean, etc. - and it resamples down to a 1080 finish exceptionally well.

[Steve Gibby]

Hey Steve,

How much does that thing weigh, compared to a DVCPro or similar?

The B4 lens EFP setup pictured weighed around 20 pounds. The hybrid setup pictured weighs around 21 pounds.

Most fully rigged, mobile non-hardlined EFP cameras (BetaCam, Varicam, F900) weigh around the same as my examples - from maybe 20 pounds up to 27 pounds, depending on the lens and accessories on them.

[Steve Gibby]

Attached are two more recent pics of another of my RED cameras ("London") with my RED B4 Adaptor, Fujinon 22x7.3 HD EFP/ENG zoom, with hirose to 12v cable to power lens servo-zoom unit.

Rig weight = around 25 pounds

[Ryan B]

Man thats a wicked setup Steve.
Thanks for sharing the photos!

Ryanb.

[Steve Gibby]

Happy to help...

Even with RED One there is almost no end to the possible lens and accessory combinations. With Epic and Scarlet there should be even many more possibilities than with RED One - especially for hybrid style and EFP style setups.

Fun times ahead...

[Nic Spencer]

Steve, just like to thank you helping me make my first foray into RED. It looks as though the shooting situations and field work you do is very similar to where I often find myself. It has given me real comfort reading your posts before lashing out the dough on this beast. I'm going for a light weight Nikon based set up for starters and will look at getting into the EPIC when it comes out.

Out of curiosity, what base plate system have you found works fastest/easiest? The reason I ask is I have used the Sony v-mount quick release system for years and anything less than this would seem cumbersome.

Thanks again.

[Joseph Ward]

I think Steve Gibby is onto something with Red and LIVE DSMC, for ENG/EFP. With Red being so quiet about their upcoming RGB, FF1080P, and Scarlet 2/3 Fixed, this can be a killer combination.

The next big Red Revolution for me is some REDCODE RGB(if it has Graemes magical pixies working on it like REDCODE RAW with new free firmware updates)!

[Steve Gibby]

Nic,

I'm happy my posts have helped you...

In terms of sheer volume of productions each year, the combined hybrid production and EFP production industries are the big elephant in the room in the motion media business. RED One has been a pretty hybrid and EFP friendly camera, but IMO Scarlet (and Epic) will be even way more usable in those styles than R1.

I've used a lot of Sony V-mount plate systems over the years, and yes they are quick and efficient for run n' gun production. The down side is they can get loose sometimes and give a slight wobble to the camera in a pan/tilt. I've also had a few of them fail in extreme forward tilt situations - one time I had a camera drop clear off the Sony V-mount, and drop 15 feet to a floor below - an expensive lesson.

With my REDs I've been using the ET ARRI dovetail, in tandem with the ET hybrid base plate. I've learned to change out the camera from the ET dovetail on top of my Miller 55 heads, to the dovetail on the ET Mantis, and back, quickly, almost as fast as using a Sony V-plate. The dovetails are very solid too - no wobble movement whatsoever. When I'm using my real long lenses (Canon 800, Canon 150-600) I simply release the Miller plate from the head, and lift off the entire camera/lens/base plate/dovetail/Miller mini-plate combo from the tripod. To put it back on the tripod I just line the Miller mini-plate on the bottom up with its slot on top of the head, drop it in, and it snaps into place.

[Steve Gibby]

Joseph,

All things with RED are subject to change, but IMO the fixed lens Scarlet, with user selectable RAW and RGB, FF1080P, and a host of other hybrid and EFP friendly features, is very much "alive and well". I would be deeply surprised if all those features, and probably many more hybrid and EFP friendly features were not in the fixed lens and 2/3" Cinema Scarlet models.

I also expect the mentioned "fly by wire" capabilities to be in the final specs for the fixed lens model too. What that exactly means, nobody but RED Team knows. As a mere guess on my part, I'd suggest it refers to the combination of a host of user-selectable auto features (iris, focus, etc.), naturally de-selectable if you want manual controls, and also the ability to control Scarlet remotely with the RED Mote - which would actually be "fly by non-wire" :)

Then there is the 2/3" Cinema Scarlet, which I'd guess will be very EFP production friendly, with the probable ability to use B4 2/3" HD EFP/ENG zooms.

I'm fascinated by REDCODE RGB. In quick turnaround hybrid and EFP production with Scarlet, that would give us the ability to simply select RGB, shoot the gig, and either hand over the footage to clients or our editors, or back it up first then hand it over. Then we could switch to RAW to shoot longer turnaround wraps, in-bumps, out-bumps, promos, creative montage shots, etc., where we have the time to maximize the post advantages of RAW over RGB.

Going to be interesting to see what's up when the specs are finalized for the Scarlet models - and Epic models too. :thumbsup:

[Jason Sturgis]

Steve,
Some great points you bring up in this discussion. I am hoping that the 2/3 Scarlet will be able to use B4 zooms(in 3K)- I think that would make for a wonderful EFP kit and perhaps starting chipping into the Varicam world. I love my Red but feel that the 2/3 scarlet w/ B4 set up could be an amazing set up for EFP. Horses for courses I know but the 2/3 Scarlet could turn out to be THE horse for the outdoor course.

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks Jason...and you make a very good point there about the 2/3" removable lens Scarlet. It is somehow named "Cinema", but in reality it could very well be turn out to be a superb 2/3" B4 HD EFP/ENG zoom camera.

The genius of these modular cameras will be their broad utility...build them for what you need to shoot that day, then go get some images. The next day, or portion of thereof, just quickly re-build and maybe re-lens the camera, and you're off doing another style and/or genre of production. If the specs come out the way I think they will, everyone is going to give a major, but way pleasant sigh when they''re announced :)

Fun times ahead gents...

[Stefan Christou]

Just to chime in on this excellent discussion. I think a big factor in whether Reds are used in news environments will depend on how well they play with Avid, and specifically whether Red takes up the opportunity to get the RGB files supported by AMA (Avid Media Access), which lets material from a card or disk populate bins instantly for editing as soon as it is inserted into the edit machine.

AMA is open to all manufacturers to develop a plugin for their media type and already includes Sony's XDCAM and XDCAM EX, Panasonic's P2, and Ikegami GFCam.

It's way cool and beats the hell out of transcoding material in into certain other NLEs (ahem). It's how non-linear editing should be.

BTW Script sync rules.

Just my two cents.

Stefan

[Joseph Ward]

RED should make a zoom lens for the cinema 2/3 interchangeable too. :cry: I want to be able to have the choice of not owning anything other than RED! lol

[Nic Spencer]

Good points Stephen & Joseph, you would have hoped they started down this road a long time ago (Instant Avid Integration from the Camera). I shoot with a P2 setup for broadcast clients for that very reason, it instantly integrates with their avid suites at the end of the shoot. We swap out the 64GB cards with the producer and off we go for the next shoot.

[Chris Kennedy]

Nice rig Steve!

But for me, ENG needs ND filters. There's something about an ENG camera which I really need. Don't like searching through menus for simple stuff like shutter, etc. It needs to be in an easy to reach space without taking my eyes off the VF.

But will the 2/3 interchangeable scarlet impact ENG users... Definitely I'll just use it as a good B camera, and a good excuse to dust off my 16mm lenses.

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks Chris...

Yes, filters are a hassle with a rig setup like that on RED One. The ease of switching ND filters with a filter wheel on a 2/3" camera is great. With the rigs pictured I changed screw-on ND filters quickly - the only way to do it on RED with those setups. Because I almost always use 35mm stills lenses on my REDs, without matte boxes and follow focus units, I always carry a small folding case containing screw-on ND filters, and I've become very fast at changing them out.

I believe both the 2/3" Scarlet models will have wide use in non-hardlined EFP and ENG production. That will depend on their final specifications. We'll see...

[Peter Rollins]

Steve have you ever used that rotating adjustable ND filter?

[Steve Gibby]

Nope...but I like the concept. I'll have to check it out...

[David Rasberry]

I'm with Steve on the ENG business. Can't see TV stations handing out Scarlets to their news crews, but a sometimes stringer like myself will happen across or seek out stories to shoot and sell. Scarlet should be a handy little camera for that.

[Steve Davis]

Just a thought for those of us thinking about Red for EFP work in the near future... perhaps a bolt on module with optical CC/ND wheels as in Digibeta/HDCAM/P2 camcorders. Maybe this could fit between the brain and the lens adapter of choice... throwing it out there. Really good to have an excuse to stop paying 60-70k for a camera body!

[Steve Gibby]

RED has confirmed their intention, subject to change, to have an internal 3-filter ND wheel on the fixed lens Scarlet. Combined with Scarlet's capability of shooting 1080p RGB (subject to change), this could help make the fixed lens Scarlet very usable in the EFP and ENG industries.

The specifications for the other Scarlet models may be finalized in RED's upcoming November 30 announcement. Epic camera specifications have not been finalized and announced as such. IMO since RED announced an internal ND filter wheel for the fixed lens Scarlet, there is a possibility that the same may be featured in other models of Scarlet (especially detachable 2/3"), and possibly some Epic models. If they figured out a way to fit a filter wheel into the fixed lens version, I see no reason why they couldn't have figured out a way to fit a filter wheel into some of their other new camera models.

Scarlet and Epic have both been positioned as modular, flexible, highly-utilitarian camera lines, usable in a wide variety of styles, industries, and genres. The combined EFP and ENG industries are by far the largest portion of the motion media industry - absolutely dwarfing the cine industry in terms of yearly production totals, number of workers, and amount of camera equipment bought. If RED wants to make a quantum leap in the amount of camera equipment, lenses, and accessories they sell, then making the new Scarlet and Epic models as EFP friendly and ENG friendly (some models) is IMO the way to do it.

Once the tech specs for all the new Scarlet and Epic camera models are finalized we'll have a clear picture on the level of usability of each model for EFP and ENG work. RED One is relatively EFP friendly, but not very ENG friendly. I expect RED's target market for certain models of Scarlet (both 2/3" models), and to a lesser degree some models of Epic (S35) to be squarely aimed at the EFP industry (along with the cine industry), and in some cases also the ENG industry.

I'm an owner of multiple RED One cameras. I mostly shoot hybrid EFP style with RED, using 35mm stills lenses exclusively, eye focusing, and screw-on filters exclusively (no MB). Me and my crews have learned to quickly change out screw-on filters, but an internal filter wheel in these new RED cameras would make our field workflow incredibly easier. If the filter wheel had a clear filter position then those who wanted to use a matte box/stage filter setup could put those accessories on the camera and shoot that way - but those who want to shoot hybrid style , EFP style, and ENG could simply and quickly use the filter wheel - we'd have both options at our finger tips.

Also, the auto and fly by wire features in the fixed lens Scarlet, posted here on RED User by RED Team since 10-30-09, bode extremely well for broad utility in mobile, fast-paced shooting environments like non-hardlined EFP and ENG :hurray:

[Stephen Gentle]

Just a thought for those of us thinking about Red for EFP work in the near future... perhaps a bolt on module with optical CC/ND wheels as in Digibeta/HDCAM/P2 camcorders. Maybe this could fit between the brain and the lens adapter of choice... throwing it out there. Really good to have an excuse to stop paying 60-70k for a camera body!

I don't think you could put a filter wheel between the lens and the brain, because the lens is designed to focus at a particular distance and having the extra space in between would throw this off. You'd probably be able to compensate with the focus wheel in the middle of the range, but at either end you'd have problems.

[Steve Gibby]

RED has confirmed (subject to change) that the removable lens Epic and Scarlet cameras will have a 5-way adjustable sensor block, which is the way we'll adjust back focus. Seems to me that could also enable the use of an internal filter wheel if enough space was provided between the lens flange and the movement range of the sensor block.

B4 cameras have built-in sensor wheels, and B4 lenses have back focus adjustments just above the lens flange.

I don't think having an internal filter wheel in the new removable lens cameras is technically impossible. I just think there would be design hurdles to get over, plus there isn't a big demand for internal filter wheels coming from those who will use the cameras exclusively in cine style - they like to filter with matte box stage filters, and most of them have never used a camera with an internal filter wheel. Then again, these cameras are being positioned as fitting into whatever industry you want/need them to - stills, EFP, and cine - and the combined EFP and ENG industries are by far the largest camera equipment market in the motion media industry.

It will be interesting to see what RED did on filtering when the final specifications for the new cameras are announced.

[John Pappas]

Not sure if this a dumb question or not...but is there any way to focus besides manually with a red1 or scarlet? If you are running and gunning/eng sometimes you don't have the time to make sure your focus is perfect manually. Also, sometimes you would need an external monitor to focus really well. If you have a focus puller you have time between each shot. The work I do I don't.

I currently have an hpx170 and although I don't use full auto focus all that much, it is a handy option in certain circumstances and having a focus assist is really nice when I have a couple seconds to use it. Most of the time I"m in manual and then hit the focus button when I need if I'm in a rush and then it goes back to manual.

Question is, how do people focus quickly with a scarlet/red one?

[David W. Jones]

I don't shoot with a Red in these situations, I'll use an ENG cam.

[Stuart English]

As the RED ONE was not intended in any way shape or form for ENG use, that only makes sense.

I believe that the new cameras though are well suited to on-shoulder, run-and-gun type operation.

[John Pappas]

So the scarlet will have auto focus capabilities? No ND Filters I suppose. What about a b4 lens connection? To be able to have servo zoom is handy sometimes but not as essential as nd or auto focus.

[Stuart English]

So the scarlet will have auto focus capabilities? No ND Filters I suppose. What about a b4 lens connection? To be able to have servo zoom is handy sometimes but not as essential as nd or auto focus.

Yes it will.

But I'm puzzled. Tell me of a professional ENG camera that has auto-focus?

[Roberto B]

Yes it will.

But I'm puzzled. Tell me of a professional ENG camera that has auto-focus?scarlet? :cool:

autofocus on both 2/3" models? or just on the 8x fixed?

[Mike Shugrue]

This is a great idea. Kudos to you for doing this.

[Quentin Brown]

Yes it will.

But I'm puzzled. Tell me of a professional ENG camera that has auto-focus?

I suppose you could say the Sony PMW EX1, EX3, and the Z series and Panasonic's equivalents. They may be more cross over semipro cameras but they get used a hell of a lot in broadcast - especially ob docs where often producers, researchers or directors shoot a lot of the material these days. Really at the price point of the scarlet this is the market they are going to be touching on whether they are aiming for it or not. But you have a point about the higher end true ENG cameras, autofocus not normally present there.

I really get that what Red are offering is amazing at any price and double so because of the price, but my sense is that the cameras remain mostly targeted at the high end cinematography and film world rather than broadcast or that that is where they are coming at it from. For a film cinematographer the Scarlet will just about blow their minds.

I imagine a full scarlet rig with a zoom lens, pro IO module, battery module and shoulder rig will significantly undercut the price of a regular pro broadcast HD EFP/ENG cam like the PMW-350L by a factor of 2 or more. From what I've heard the imagery from an EX1 or EX3 is pretty close to something like the 350L and is considered acceptable for generating 100% of a programs content for broadcast by the BBC. An EX1 or EX3 is a lot closer to the scarlet in price point (especially bearing in mind you would need some extra modules in the package to get you a viewfinder, full size xlrs, genlock and a shoulder brace and on board mic). A lot of people coming to a new camera will look at it in comparison to other cameras at it's price point so invariably the scarlet gets compared to the likes of the HVX's and EX1's. At this level it's not quite so black and white. For most working in broadcast anything above 1080P isn't going to get used, certainly not by clients or in transmission anyway - so there goes a major feature of the Scarlet. If users want to shoot in Red RGB scaled 1080 mode they will presumably need to set the look in camera as it will get baked in to some degree. On the EX1 and most broadcast cameras there are numerous handy switches and controls for direct control of all the baked in settings like white balance and gain so they can be accessed quickly in breaking news type situations, so far these are not shown as being present in any form - modular or otherwise, for the Scarlet. The few programmable buttons revealed so far would not cover these as you would need them for switching between iris, focus and zoom control on the lens ring during shooting. Then there are lenses - sure you could buy a 2/3" brain, a B4 mount adapter and a broadcast zoom lens (and from Gibby's reports suffer some soft imagery due to the extra glass involved) - but the lens in the Scarlet fixed is only 8X. I know it will be a very high quality 8x with all the resolution needed to look pin sharp throughout at 3K (fatastic for filmmakers wanting to shoot 3K), but it is only 8X. Many broadcast ENG lenses, including the one packaged with the EX1 and EX3 come in at 14X and have a built in switch in 2x extender. This gives the user great flexibility in fast breaking news situations or on ob docs and reality shows. These versatile lenses usually come as part of the package with these ENG cameras too so count them in the cost. There are also many other little operational features that have slowly sprung up in these sorts of cameras that are specifically targeted at the run and gun ENG style shooter which may or may not make their way onto the scarlet (haven't seen many in the specs released so far). The most important feature for ENG use would probably be interlace mode. Despite the move to LCD and plasma screens by consumers (which are natively progressive display devices) all broadcasters that I know of broadcast interlaced material - even the few who have taken up the HD mantle (well certainly the BBC anyway). Although there may be ways around this and it may only be a perceived problem producers and others in big TV news gathering organisations will not see 1080i and may just simply discount the Scarlet for their quick turnaround production needs.

Perhaps one could shoot 1080@60p for USA or 1080@ 50P for UK and get it to playback/output in realtime from the edit as an interlaced 30 or 25 frames per second? Even so I think a lot of execs would need to see it for themselves to be convinced. 1080i as a spec in camera however and they wouldn't give it a second glance.

So to my mind if you are shooting only for broadcast news and run and gun stuff it is not so straightforward a choice as to whether to buy a Scarlet or not. Other cameras may just be slightly better suited to the job.

This has been the dilemma in my mind as I have imagined myself focusing on ob docs for the future.

The main attraction of the Scarlet for me is it's ability to excel in other forms of acquisition. If I want to shoot a drama for someone or for that matter do any other kind of work apart from ENG style then it would enable that big time. So don't get me wrong, I love the Scarlet specs I've seen so far, I love the price and am very likely to get one as my one and only camera, all of the above points have just been a sticking point in my mind due to my imagined direction in terms of the main type of scenarios I'm likely to shoot.



Disclaimer. I may have got some things wrong, above, don't take my views as being totally correct or authoritative views of an industry insider. I may come across as thinking I am, but I'm not really. I did a TV broadcasting degree some time ago where I did live multicam studio work, ENG, EFP and just about everything else then worked for a while as a one man video department for a multimedia company but haven't worked in the industry for a while so that limited experience and snippets from the net as I plan my re-entry into the field are where I get my knowledge from. I would appreciate the perspective of a seasoned pro like Gibby or someone working wholly in ENG or ob docs on my opinions expressed above.

[Quentin Brown]

By the way Steve Gibby, thanks once again for your informative posts sharing your workflows with us on this forum. They have gone some way to allaying my fears.

Also the point about Avid workflow integration is a good one too, but I'm sure Red will be on top of that, they are nearly there already and that's with 4K R3D's!.

[Milan Nikolic]

Thanks Gibby!

[Barry Fontaine]

Quentin_B, excellent points all!

I have over 20 years shooting and editing ENG in a News environment. I have also worked on Docs where the shooting style and workflow has very much matched that of News. I have shot on every Sony Betacam SP/SX, Panasonic, Ikegami and others that have crossed my path. I own a Canon XL1 that is long since past it's usefullness that I freelanced on the side from my TV News work.
I will also likely buy a Red Scarlet 2/3 for my freelance rig. I like the ability to sell a 1080p product with superior image capture and codec. The ability to shoot 3K will no doubt set myself apart from the XDCam and DigiBeta owners currently freelancing in my market. Is that a good thing?

My questions are based on economic realities. How will my product be accepted by clients? Will they be able to easily ingest or transfer my material into the wide range of workflows that exist in todays real life TV world? Is 1080p RGB on a CF or RAID with a RED codec going to be accepted? Are there other Codecs available "in camera" so as to deliver my footage quickly and in the language my clients will demand?

Signed, A Red newbie. Barry.

[Rob Ruffo]

I suppose you could say the Sony PMW EX1, EX3, and the Z series and Panasonic's equivalents. They may be more cross over semipro cameras but they get used a hell of a lot in broadcast - especially ob docs where often producers, researchers or directors shoot a lot of the material these days. Really at the price point of the scarlet this is the market they are going to be touching on whether they are aiming for it or not. But you have a point about the higher end true ENG cameras, autofocus not normally present there.

I really get that what Red are offering is amazing at any price and double so because of the price, but my sense is that the cameras remain mostly targeted at the high end cinematography and film world rather than broadcast or that that is where they are coming at it from. For a film cinematographer the Scarlet will just about blow their minds.

I imagine a full scarlet rig with a zoom lens, pro IO module, battery module and shoulder rig will significantly undercut the price of a regular pro broadcast HD EFP/ENG cam like the PMW-350L by a factor of 2 or more. From what I've heard the imagery from an EX1 or EX3 is pretty close to something like the 350L and is considered acceptable for generating 100% of a programs content for broadcast by the BBC. An EX1 or EX3 is a lot closer to the scarlet in price point (especially bearing in mind you would need some extra modules in the package to get you a viewfinder, full size xlrs, genlock and a shoulder brace and on board mic). A lot of people coming to a new camera will look at it in comparison to other cameras at it's price point so invariably the scarlet gets compared to the likes of the HVX's and EX1's. At this level it's not quite so black and white. For most working in broadcast anything above 1080P isn't going to get used, certainly not by clients or in transmission anyway - so there goes a major feature of the Scarlet. If users want to shoot in Red RGB scaled 1080 mode they will presumably need to set the look in camera as it will get baked in to some degree. On the EX1 and most broadcast cameras there are numerous handy switches and controls for direct control of all the baked in settings like white balance and gain so they can be accessed quickly in breaking news type situations, so far these are not shown as being present in any form - modular or otherwise, for the Scarlet. The few programmable buttons revealed so far would not cover these as you would need them for switching between iris, focus and zoom control on the lens ring during shooting. Then there are lenses - sure you could buy a 2/3" brain, a B4 mount adapter and a broadcast zoom lens (and from Gibby's reports suffer some soft imagery due to the extra glass involved) - but the lens in the Scarlet fixed is only 8X. I know it will be a very high quality 8x with all the resolution needed to look pin sharp throughout at 3K (fatastic for filmmakers wanting to shoot 3K), but it is only 8X. Many broadcast ENG lenses, including the one packaged with the EX1 and EX3 come in at 14X and have a built in switch in 2x extender. This gives the user great flexibility in fast breaking news situations or on ob docs and reality shows. These versatile lenses usually come as part of the package with these ENG cameras too so count them in the cost. There are also many other little operational features that have slowly sprung up in these sorts of cameras that are specifically targeted at the run and gun ENG style shooter which may or may not make their way onto the scarlet (haven't seen many in the specs released so far). The most important feature for ENG use would probably be interlace mode. Despite the move to LCD and plasma screens by consumers (which are natively progressive display devices) all broadcasters that I know of broadcast interlaced material - even the few who have taken up the HD mantle (well certainly the BBC anyway). Although there may be ways around this and it may only be a perceived problem producers and others in big TV news gathering organisations will not see 1080i and may just simply discount the Scarlet for their quick turnaround production needs.

Perhaps one could shoot 1080@60p for USA or 1080@ 50P for UK and get it to playback/output in realtime from the edit as an interlaced 30 or 25 frames per second? Even so I think a lot of execs would need to see it for themselves to be convinced. 1080i as a spec in camera however and they wouldn't give it a second glance.

So to my mind if you are shooting only for broadcast news and run and gun stuff it is not so straightforward a choice as to whether to buy a Scarlet or not. Other cameras may just be slightly better suited to the job.

This has been the dilemma in my mind as I have imagined myself focusing on ob docs for the future.

The main attraction of the Scarlet for me is it's ability to excel in other forms of acquisition. If I want to shoot a drama for someone or for that matter do any other kind of work apart from ENG style then it would enable that big time. So don't get me wrong, I love the Scarlet specs I've seen so far, I love the price and am very likely to get one as my one and only camera, all of the above points have just been a sticking point in my mind due to my imagined direction in terms of the main type of scenarios I'm likely to shoot.



Disclaimer. I may have got some things wrong, above, don't take my views as being totally correct or authoritative views of an industry insider. I may come across as thinking I am, but I'm not really. I did a TV broadcasting degree some time ago where I did live multicam studio work, ENG, EFP and just about everything else then worked for a while as a one man video department for a multimedia company but haven't worked in the industry for a while so that limited experience and snippets from the net as I plan my re-entry into the field are where I get my knowledge from. I would appreciate the perspective of a seasoned pro like Gibby or someone working wholly in ENG or ob docs on my opinions expressed above.

1080i is just a way of broadcasting a 1080p30fps signal, by splitting each of those 30 progressive frames into a half-field every 60th of a second. No oen in their right mind would shoot a "true" 1080i, where each field is recorded at a different moment in time (so 60 "moments" per second, rather than 30 momenst split up in 60 fields) - this would result in awful combing on most televisions which are natively 30p, and cannot actually display higher frame rates than that. All major networks broadcast material shot at 1080p30 or 1080p24 (CSI Miami and other shows) via 1080i as merely a delivery method (or when 720p sometimes but rarely 720p60 - this mostly for sports). No primetime show is actually shot in "true 1080i".

I would refuse to work with a producer too stupid to realize that a 1080p30 project can easily be converted to 1080i for broadcast at any point in time. This is not "advanced knowledge".

As per drama shooting drama costs a lot. Makeup alone, per day, adds up to a A LOT. Why shoot drama on a 2/3 camera!? Why not just buy a Red? The extra cost is nothing compared to how it costs to put together one day of watchable fiction shooting, and 2/3 is not really acceptable, I think, for anything but comedy anymore.

[David Rasberry]

Most of the dramatic broadcast series shot on 2/3" are shot on high end cameras, F900's, Panny 3700's and the like, not the lower end 2/3" ENG cameras. 2/3" is an excellent flexible production format for just about anything.

[David W. Jones]

As per drama shooting drama costs a lot. Makeup alone, per day, adds up to a A LOT. Why shoot drama on a 2/3 camera!? Why not just buy a Red? The extra cost is nothing compared to how it costs to put together one day of watchable fiction shooting, and 2/3 is not really acceptable, I think, for anything but comedy anymore.

Rob, as David points out, high end 2/3" cameras are more than capable of handling the chores of most any production, including large budget films. And as far as "The extra cost of of buying a Red" compared to a high end 2/3" camera, The cost of a Red One is a spit in the bucket compared to the price of a Sony F950.


Most of the dramatic broadcast series shot on 2/3" are shot on high end cameras, F900's, Panny 3700's and the like, not the lower end 2/3" ENG cameras. 2/3" is an excellent flexible production format for just about anything.

[James Brundige]

Electronic News Gathering (ENG) hasn't been a significant part of RED One production for obvious reasons - the need for RAW to RGB rendering, quick turnarounds, tight deadlines, etc. But RED One has been used widely in Electronic Field Production (EFP), specifically non-hardlined EFP, and quite often that involves hybrid style camera setups and usage techniques - lightweight camera setups, 35mm stills lenses (sometimes B4 lenses too), eye focusing, no matte boxes (screw-on filters), no follow focuses, etc. Some examples of genres using hybrid RED setups are: adventure travel, alternative sports, some music productions, wildlife, nature, some aerials, some underwater, many documentaries, stock footage, and many more genres.


I've sold my B4 lenses and use a selection of Nikons for nature and doc shooting. I do miss the built in zoom motor in the Fujinon. Have you found any solutions for zooming your Nikon lenses, which is impossible to do smoothly by hand?

[Steve Gibby]

I've sold my B4 lenses and use a selection of Nikons for nature and doc shooting. I do miss the built in zoom motor in the Fujinon. Have you found any solutions for zooming your Nikon lenses, which is impossible to do smoothly by hand?

I've sold my B4 lenses too. I own the Red B4 adaptor, and I simply rent B4 lenses if I need them.

I zoom 35mm still lenses on Red by hand. With practice it goes quite well. I rarely zoom during a shot, so a smooth zoom isn't often needed - but I can zoom smoothly during a shot if necessary. For mobile hybrid and EFP work with Red, I mostly use my 35mm still zooms as variable primes, for quick re-framing, then hitting record.

I did experiment for some time with adapting a servo-zoom unit I cannibalized from a Fujinon EFP/ENG zoom to my Nikon 50-300 f4.5 AIS zoom, with pretty good results. The Fujinon servo-zoom was powered by a hirose to LEMO cable I got from Red, plugged into the 12v auxiliary bus on the smart side of Red.

I'm guessing (and hoping) that using the new Red Electronic Lenses will eliminate the need for an external servo-zoom or adapted Micro Force motor. We'll see...:)

[Stuart English]

No one in their right mind would shoot a "true" 1080i, where each field is recorded at a different moment in time
(so 60 "moments" per second, rather than 30 momentst split up in 60 fields)

Hey Rob, I wouldn't mention that to NHK, or CBS, or NBC or HDNet, just to name a few major program commissioners :-)

Your combing artifact comment is inaccurate if the display de-interlaces to progressive (most TV's do, most P.C monitors don't)


There is a place for 1008i/59.94fps, but over time we can expect that it will be replaced by 1080p/59.94fps as a production standard.

[James Brundige]

Quentin_B, excellent points all!

"Television is a long plastic hallway where pimps and thieves run wild and good men die like dogs."
Hunter S. Thompson..

The most awful assignments of my life have been interviews of Hunter Thompson. One of the real assholes of all time, who kept us waiting for 12 hours, only to show up too drunk to talk. Then there's the time he threw a drink on Phil Mahr in the middle of taping a show. Many such stories from colleagues.

Clever quote, but I've mostly met quality people in thirty years in TV, with the exception of Hunter Thompson.

[James Brundige]

I've sold my B4 lenses too. I own the Red B4 adaptor, and I simply rent B4 lenses if I need them.

I zoom 35mm still lenses on Red by hand. With practice it goes quite well. I rarely zoom during a shot, so a smooth zoom isn't often needed - but I can zoom smoothly during a shot if necessary. For mobile hybrid and EFP work with Red, I mostly use my 35mm still zooms as variable primes, for quick re-framing, then hitting record.

I did experiment for some time with adapting a servo-zoom unit I cannibalized from a Fujinon EFP/ENG zoom to my Nikon 50-300 f4.5 AIS zoom, with pretty good results. The Fujinon servo-zoom was powered by a hirose to LEMO cable I got from Red, plugged into the 12v auxiliary bus on the smart side of Red.

I'm guessing (and hoping) that using the new Red Electronic Lenses will eliminate the need for an external servo-zoom or adapted Micro Force motor. We'll see...:)

I don't zoom often, but sometimes it's just the right move, starting on a detail or discovering one, or pushing in slowly as tears well up. It would be cool if Red could pull that off with the Redmote.

[Stefan Christou]

Barriers to using RED One in ENG: From talking to an experienced ENG freelancer who shoots on Sony's here were three reasons why he does not shoot on RED, starting with the most important first.

1. He would not be able to afford to give away recording media, this is the same reason he does not shoot panasonic. For TV News work this is the biggest barrier to P2 or RED workflows for a freelance cameramen.
2. He felt he would have to add too many things on for it to work the way he needed and that the kit as a whole would be too heavy.

Reason's for a station not to take RED footage might be...

1. Stations want native workflows in terms of compatibility, framerate and resolution. (The new version of Avid may have changed this as you can now have multiple resolutions or framerates on a single timeline, meaning 1080p could be played out with 1080i or SD footage from library.)

I think Scarlet fixed could make some headway into budget US stations if the RGB is compatible with AMA. 2/3" Cinema and Epic could make inroads for the bigger markets and for freelancers if RGB has AMA and the recording media is not prohibitively expensive. I'm told £100 is the upper limit for giving away recording media in the UK.

[Quentin Brown]

The 1080i issue may be not quite so important as I thought. At least not for the BBC. Having just re-read their guide for HD production whilst they may require a specific format such as 1080i for a show commission they will in most circumstances accept 1080 25p. Which will be broadcast 1080 25 psf (interlaced signal, progressive frames) However you may not be this lucky with other broadcasters.

At the Broadcast Video Expo in London the other week there were a huge number of seminars on RED and RED in post, plus RED Ones on many stands. It seems they are taking off in broadcast but mostly for Drama and TVC spots, not more mobile applications. I think the Scarlets will be the game changer for all this due to the form factor and hopefully the more approachable 1080 RGB recording format, which I hope will be well supported on common affordable edit systems like FCP and be able to playback on a standard system in realtime at full res without a RedRocket. Hopefully this format will also mean smaller file-sizes since it will be lower resolution than the full 3k R3Ds, making buying a suitable sized portable hard drive to hand over deliverables a cheap give away media option.

Having said previously that I saw myself going in a Documentary route, I realise from working on a recent shoot that I love working on Dramas. So I may well go high end and get a RED Rocket™ to DIT on red shoots, then eventually get a s35 or F35 Scarlet (for nice filmic shallow DoF control) + 2/3" fixed (for high frame rates + bundled modules) as I work my way up the camera dept and once the RR has paid for itself so I'm getting less and less worried about these ENG/EFP specifics. I don't envisage doing any news, and EFP can usually afford to spend some time in post and with a RR and hopefully soon direct support for the RR in FCP and Color I'll be able to offer a nice efficient workflow to clients.

[David Rasberry]

I see no reason a Scarlet wouldn't work as an ENG camera for a stringer or photojournalist that also shot other material more appropriate to the camera's intended work flow. But I don't see widespread adoption as a TV station news camera. The conventional over the shoulder ENG video camera is highly evolved for that task and the news bureau work flow is tightly integrated. Properly configured a Scarlet could be pretty efficient, but it would have a hard time competing with the likes of Sony in the news market.