Nexto - CF backup on the go [Archive]

PaulClements

08-08-2007, 02:50 PM

I started writing about this in another thread but thought it was worth bringing to the attention of all. This thing sounds like an ideal companion to RedOne shooters using Compact Flash.

http://www.nextodi.com/en/product/ultra_en.html

Copy your CF directly, negating the requirement of a computer
Can do a GB in less than 50 seconds!
Is compatible with PC & Mac
One button backup
Verifies your backup (90 seconds per GB)
Comes with an extra external battery included - Total backup of about 150GB using both batteries and can be plugged into mains

I've seen a couple of prices but arount the $280 mark for a 120GB setup is about average. It seems you can buy it without a 2.5" harddrive and install one of your choosing. I've found it for about $200 without Harddrive so I guess you can stick a larger HDD in there since it formats it to FAT32 - again ideal for RedOne as I believe that is FAT32 also.

roryhinds

08-08-2007, 04:32 PM

what a great find Paul, thanks for sharing

Brook Willard

08-08-2007, 04:58 PM

Nice... great find. It'd be nice if it went to a RAID... but that's not a bad start. :)

PaulClements

08-08-2007, 06:23 PM

Brook, you could always backup to the Nexto with the 2.5" harddrives on location and then when you get back to your editing computer pull the hdd's out and place them into an external RAID to work directly from.

That represents a really quick workflow and only one chance of corrupted info when backing up from CF. With the Nexto's data verification that might not even be very likely.

PaulClements

08-08-2007, 06:31 PM

We could supply the client directly with an external RAID holding 1TB (5x200GB PATA HDD's) of information and there would only ever be one backup of the data from CF and that would be verified.

David Battistella

08-08-2007, 06:47 PM

We could supply the client directly with an external RAID holding 1TB (5x200GB PATA HDD's) of information and there would only ever be one backup of the data from CF and that would be verified.

With the copying that fast and the low price point, you could have two of these units and just back everything up twice.

Once goes with the client (shipped back via FEDEX after copying) and the other goes to your studio for an archive back up.

David

Great find Paul. Thanks!!

Craig Meadows

08-08-2007, 06:52 PM

A quick google search: "CF card backup" came up with a couple of more:

http://goeurope.about.com/od/photographytips/gr/hyperdrive_HD80.htm

and more on that one at:
http://www.hypershop.com/shop/

and:
http://www.adorama.com/Reviews/pwr/product-reviews/Digital/Memory-Cards-Portable-Storage-Accessories/Portable-Photo-Data-Storage-Devices/HyperDrive/SAHDS040/p/ICDSAHDS040-HyperDrive-Space-40-GB-Memory-Card-Backup-Storage-Device-for-18-Types-of-Memory-Cards.html

and:
http://www.abesofmaine.com/item.do?item=ezdm18020gb

PaulClements

08-08-2007, 07:00 PM

PaulClements

08-08-2007, 07:02 PM

With the copying that fast and the low price point, you could have two of these units and just back everything up twice.

Once goes with the client (shipped back via FEDEX after copying) and the other goes to your studio for an archive back up.

David

Great find Paul. Thanks!!

Too true David. I can see a very orderly inventory of CF cards might be required :)

Alexander Nikishin

08-08-2007, 08:21 PM

Good find....This in combination with 5 Sandisk 4's is the route I'm going.

David Battistella

08-08-2007, 09:16 PM

Too true David. I can see a very orderly inventory of CF cards might be required :)

This is what I am planning. I still haven't heard if it is possible to copy from the CF card to the RED DRIVE (it is after all a 320 RAID storage system right on the back of your camera)

WORKFLOW WISHLIST. Three RED DRIVES and about 10-20 CF cards.

1. Shoot CF . Keep CF. Copy to RED DRIVE as back-up.

2. Shoot CF. Copy to RED DRIVE A, COPY to RED DRIVE B.

3. Shoot to RED DRIVE C for those really long interviews, but audio only option would be good for those too.

If you shot 2K in this scenario you could have all of the benefits of tape and tapeless (WITHOUT A LAPTOP). I can not stress how much I believe that copying from CF to RED DRIVE will truly make RED even more revolutionary because it keeps you inside the system.

I look forward to when the client is showing up with their own RED DRIVES.

David

David

Craig Meadows

08-08-2007, 09:45 PM

Hi Craig

Of the ones I found when looking into them earlier, and just a brief glance at those you posted, the Nexto seemed to have better options and looks to be one of the better made of such devices, though I dare say they are all similar in many ways.

Paul

I agree, and it seems the Nexto has a bigger drive than many of the others. I have to say though, the thought of shooting to cards and off-loading quickly to such a device is fantastic. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a Red manufactured CF device as Battistella suggested, perhaps an adapter of some kind that would let you transfer to the red-drive.

It could be the best of both worlds, carry both in your kit, use the cards to shoot on and then transfer quickly to the red-drive attached to the back of the camera for field backup and field archiving. Carry two cards, shoot one, quickly eject it and insert to the red-drive, as it off-loads you begin to use the second card.

Better yet, no ejection of the card. Using cleverly designed Red software transfer internally from the card to the drive. Either way you aren't recording to the mechanical drives while under run and gun or extreme conditions and using it only for field back-up while handily attached to your rig.

Mark L. Pederson

08-08-2007, 11:22 PM

This is what I am planning. I still haven't heard if it is possible to copy from the CF card to the RED DRIVE (it is after all a 320 RAID storage system right on the back of your camera)

Right now, due to drive speeds It's RAID 0 only - so no protection there.

Only the REDRAM can be switched to RAID 1 as it houses two solid state drives.

PaulClements

08-09-2007, 04:21 AM

This is what I am planning. I still haven't heard if it is possible to copy from the CF card to the RED DRIVE (it is after all a 320 RAID storage system right on the back of your camera)

WORKFLOW WISHLIST. Three RED DRIVES and about 10-20 CF cards.

1. Shoot CF . Keep CF. Copy to RED DRIVE as back-up.

2. Shoot CF. Copy to RED DRIVE A, COPY to RED DRIVE B.

3. Shoot to RED DRIVE C for those really long interviews, but audio only option would be good for those too.

If you shot 2K in this scenario you could have all of the benefits of tape and tapeless (WITHOUT A LAPTOP). I can not stress how much I believe that copying from CF to RED DRIVE will truly make RED even more revolutionary because it keeps you inside the system.

I look forward to when the client is showing up with their own RED DRIVES.

David

This solution sounds ok, but unless you are handing the Red Drive over to the client you are going to be doing a second lot of backup from them to a RAID or external Harddrive. With the Nexto it ought to be possible to pull the 2.5" harddrive and hand that directly to the client.

There don't seem to be too many 200GB PATA drives kicking about but they are there. However, there are lots of low cost 160Gb drives. From a brief look I found this Seagate one:

http://www.vlp.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1102

At $89.00 that represenets $0.56 per GB. Compared to a RedDrives $2.81 per GB. (Half the space at a tenth of the cost)

If I use CF and the Nexto, which I'm thinking is more and more likely I'll give the client the option of having the drive(s) delivered in one of those small USB enclosures that cost about $10 or build them an entire RAID from the disks directly.

As long as care is taken to protect the disks such as storing them in a hard case (ala Peli or Storm) and putting them inside water and static proof bags you shouldn't go wrong.

I'll probably have 4 Nexto's on set and backup two lots from each CF. Giving me 320GB with a backup. (If swapping the drives over is easy one could probably get away with just 2).

I'd also have a reserve of 2.5" disks that I could swap over in a controlled environment either at the end of the day ready for the next day, or if a problem arises, and we need another drive to backup to, do it on set - Perhaps an ideal reason for having one of those popup rooms OffHollywood posted about a while ago.

JD Holloway

08-09-2007, 05:38 AM

I like where this is going.
Hopefully RED will buy out some of this simple tech an put steroids in it.

David Battistella

08-09-2007, 05:46 AM

This solution sounds ok, but unless you are handing the Red Drive over to the client you are going to be doing a second lot of backup from them to a RAID or external Harddrive.

Paul,

This workflow is one I would use for remote documentary shoots or "in house production".

I really believe that the multiple CF cards is going to be the best client take away. These can be copied/backed up (as the client wishes) and then shipped back or purchased as an archive. I hope CF cards have a decent to long shelf life. AS solid state they should be as good or better than Metal Particle oxide tape.

David

PaulClements

08-09-2007, 07:06 AM

Hi David,

Horses for courses I suppose. Everyone will have their favourite way of working.

Using off the shelf harddrives for backup does make it significantly cheaper and something like Nexto would appear to make it quicker than backing up CF to a RedDrive, even in remote documentary shoots.

If for example on an expidition for a week on a docu you managed to use up 10 RedDrives, that amounts to $9000. By comparison 20 160GB 2.5" drives could be bought for $1780 - plus one Nexto and that would be $1980 for 33 hours of 4K Footage for a system that doesn't require a laptop to transfer the data. Or you could buy 20 Nexto's and skip having to swap drives in the field for a total of $5780. Furthermore when you get home you don't have any further work backing up, just stick them in a RAID and off you go.

Like I say though, everyone will find ways they prefer working and I'm sure new technologies will allow us to work even more efficiently in the future.

Paul

Steve Gibby

08-09-2007, 08:02 AM

Good thread! Some well thought out BU solutions...

A thought: Backups are a fact of life no matter what the genre of production. RED seems to have been thorough in planning the rest of the camera system, and Stuart English (RED Workflow Wizard) surely has some well thought out backup workflow recommendations. With the shipping of the first cameras coming soon, it wouldn't surprise me to have in-depth recommended acquisition, backup, and post workflow options defined by RED by the time the cameras ship. My guess is that RED's backup recommendations will be thorough, have many options, and may even surprise many of us - after all, they've already been surprising us with good workflow solutions and design considerations for about 20 months of development on the RED One camera system.

IMO there are some exciting times ahead... :whistling: :wink:

No...I don't have any "insider" knowledge, just guessing...

PaulClements

08-09-2007, 08:31 AM

Stuart thinks to himself

"Gee, thanks Gibby like making a 4K camera isn't enough, I have to come up with the recommended delivery workflow plans for ya!"

:)

Steve Gibby

08-09-2007, 08:35 AM

Stuart thinks to himself

"Gee, thanks Gibby like making a 4K camera isn't enough, I have to come up with the recommended delivery workflow plans for ya!"

:)

LOL...could be!

Stuart is a very thorough chap. My guess is that he'll have some very cool recommendations for BU and everything else...

PaulClements

08-09-2007, 09:31 AM

I'm sure he will. Beauty of making the recording material options such as compact flash means BU methods will be able to constantly evolve. It's definitely an attractive part of the camera since there is little on it to go out of date at the moment.

Matt Uhry

08-09-2007, 09:42 AM

Maybe we could get the company to make a box that would host 1 or 2 ( raid 0 ) USB/ FW drives. Seems like they have much of the work for that done already.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

Antoine Fabi

08-09-2007, 09:54 AM

Very helpfull Paul. Great thread.

right now, i try to figure if it is better to invest in CF cards and RED drives, or only in a large number of CF cards...

any idea ? I do mostly 30 sec TV commercials.

Keith Nealy

08-09-2007, 11:58 AM

I've found it for about $200 without Harddrive so I guess you can stick a larger HDD in there since it formats it to FAT32 - again ideal for RedOne as I believe that is FAT32 also.

This looks like a really great system Paul, thank you.

the website says you can put up to 200gb drive inside.

Question: Isn't NTFS much better to use than FAT32 because of file size limitations with FAT? I know in all my windows edit systems we use NTFS for that reason. And, is RED actually using FAT32?

aloha,

Keith

PaulClements

08-09-2007, 12:27 PM

I believe the Red formats to FAT32, I might be wrong on that, in which case the CF would be happier backing up if both are in FAT32... Though I'm not sure so someone more technical might want to step in.

PaulClements

08-09-2007, 12:43 PM

I did some calculations earlier and the drive would take 37.20 minutes to backup and verify 16GB of data (as long as it was working at it's optimum speed).

Shooting footage in 4k would fill a 16GB CF card in just under 10 minutes. Interestingly shooting at 2k would take 38 minutes to fill a 16GB card, so effectively you could get away with shooting constantly with a minimum of 2X16GB cards and 1xNexto (Asides from swapping out of course). At 4k you would need 5x16GB CF cards and 4xNexto's as a minimum to shoot constantly as when you've filled the 1st card, you put it on to BU, then 10 minutes later the 2nd goes on to BU, 10 minutes later the 3rd goes onto backup, 10 minutes later the 4th goes onto backup and once you've filled the 5th you could go back and start using the first again as it would have been backed up and verified.

At 4k you would need to move onto your 2nd Nexto after shooting 1 hour 38 minutes, at 2k you'd have to move onto your 2nd Nexto after 6 hours 23 minutes.

Of course this takes little consideration of actually handling the things lol. But I thought it was an interesting minimum to work from when planning.

Note: This is if you were using 160GB PATA drives in the Nexto, I chose 160GB because they are cheaper per GB than 200GB drives but also because if using 16GB CF Cards it's 10x the capacity and the numbers make more sense!

Nils Ruinet

08-09-2007, 01:25 PM

Question: Isn't NTFS much better to use than FAT32 because of file size limitations with FAT? I know in all my windows edit systems we use NTFS for that reason. And, is RED actually using FAT32?

aloha,

Keith

Yes, I think Red uses FAT32.
You're right, there are much better file systems out there now, but FAT32 is compatible with both Mac and PC.
I don't think you could mount NTFS formated drives on a Mac, could you ? I guess that's the main reason why they went with the FAT32 file system.

Rob Lohman

08-10-2007, 01:50 AM

Yes, FAT32. You can mount NTFS formatted drives on the Mac, but it's read-only.

The best compatibility between all systems is still FAT32 unfortunately. Hopefully something better will come along in the next few years that works on all systems as well.

Kyle Spicer

08-10-2007, 08:08 AM

It wouldnt make everyone happy, but us Windows users could always use the MacDrive program.

http://www.mediafour.com/products/macdrive/

Michael Brennan

08-10-2007, 08:35 AM

redhead

08-10-2007, 10:32 AM

It wouldnt make everyone happy, but us Windows users could always use the MacDrive program.

But Windows can handle FAT32. I think the point they were trying to make is that both Windows and Mac can read and write FAT32. So can other systems, such as FreeBSD or Linux.

PaulClements

08-10-2007, 10:48 AM

Love the concept of backup without laptop.

But think once you give something to production it is in their midset, "theirs" and relying on it to come back in one piece if at all is optomistic.

They can budget for and handle (new) drives as they do tape or neg and keep them as their masters.

Mike Brennan

I don't understand Mike? I'd rather give the production a Nexto at $270 than almost anything else, and if I can take the drive out of it and hand that to them then i'd be even happier. Frankly I'd just charge them for every drive they fill and never ask for them back.

David Battistella

08-10-2007, 03:55 PM

Michael Brennan

08-11-2007, 06:52 AM

I don't understand Mike? I'd rather give the production a Nexto at $270 than almost anything else, and if I can take the drive out of it and hand that to them then i'd be even happier. Frankly I'd just charge them for every drive they fill and never ask for them back.

Yeah thats what I'm getting at Paul, give them the drive and charge for it, so potentially walk away from the job at the end of the day if client can deal with RED codec in house.

Could do without managing the logistics of trying to get stuff back from production.

Mike Brnnan

James T Mather

05-31-2008, 10:41 AM

Has anyone backed up a CF card containing r3d files to the Nexto CF Ultra? has anyone used one?

Hans von Sonntag

05-31-2008, 10:47 AM

Has anyone backed up a CF card containing r3d files to the Nexto CF Ultra? has anyone used one?

We use the Nexto 2525 for on set backup on every shoot. We never erase the CFs and the corresponding Nexto until the footage is on LTO and project raid.
Nexto 2525 works just great.

Hans

cinemano

05-31-2008, 10:55 AM

Alex Carr

05-31-2008, 11:01 AM

Just looking at speed comparisons...

6 minutes for 2GB??? Thats terrible... 24 minutes for reloading a Full 4 minute mag?

No, thank you...

Hans von Sonntag

05-31-2008, 11:07 AM

hard drives in shoots make me nervous.. id rather buy a bag-full of cf cards.. and be sure the footage works when i get home from a shaky drive... but sounds like a cool thing to have around in case cards are full and one more scene is needed

Well, we keep both CFs and Nexto. Nexto is only for on set backup. We never erase cards on set. I've got 20 and that seems just right for one day.

Hans

Hans von Sonntag

05-31-2008, 11:09 AM

Just looking at speed comparisons...

6 minutes for 2GB??? Thats terrible... 24 minutes for reloading a Full 4 minute mag?

No, thank you...

Nexto 2525 takes about 5 minutes to copy a whole card.

Hans

James T Mather

05-31-2008, 11:12 AM

Thanks - just ordered 2 Nextos - seems like the way to go.

Jef Costello

05-31-2008, 11:33 AM

There's 320 GB version of the nexto:

http://www.mydigitaldiscount.com/SPD/nexto-320gb-extreme-nd-2700-portable-storage-unit-320gb-nexto-extreme-nd-2700--80000711-1208442160.jsp

Also to write on NTFS with a mac:

http://www.paragon-software.com/home/ntfs-mac/

Paragon works very well, I've been using it for a while now.

Steve Sherrick

05-31-2008, 11:42 AM

Has anyone come up with the right combination of settings to use with Hyperdrive to achieve decent transfer speeds and some verification?

Kenn Michael

05-31-2008, 12:05 PM

All the verification speeds on the Hyperdrive are too slow for me unfortunately. If you have to do verification, I would just do the partial... But that almost defeats the purpose.

James T Mather

05-31-2008, 12:58 PM

Yeah - we just did a shoot and switched from shooting drive to CF - I was much happier with this system - backing up on the go made me more confident that any data problems would be minor - if anything goes wrong you're down only a few minutes of footage (as opposed to an hours work (or more)) (I've ordered 2 nextos and maybe a third for utter redundancy pending a review) might be the best way to go. Switching out CF cards took no time at all and at the end of the day I could just send one of them to the post house (pretty much the same cost as a hard drive by and large and skips the laptop step). Happy days.

George A.

05-31-2008, 01:11 PM

What's better:

- the Nexto 2525 (PATA drives)

http://www.mydigitaldiscount.com/ProductDetail.jsp?LISTID=80000180-1179840782

- or the new Nexto 2700 (SATA drives)

http://www.mydigitaldiscount.com/ProductDetail.jsp?LISTID=8000070B-1208441113

The 2700 seems to be a faster version dute to the SATA drives. Yet, it is cheaper. Is there something I'm not getting here? I see you can download CF cards to the 2700 as well, so is there a catch?

On another note, I've tested a MacBook Pro laptop on set. Battery life is too short, it's a hassle to drag it around (especially a 17' version), open it, verify the full cards, download it to an external drive etc

I think buying two Nextos, or a Nexto and a Hyperdrive (two have two different solutions for backups - for increased security) is the way to go. Fill a CF card up, download it to two Nextos, and move on. At the end of the day and off the set, copy the two Nextos to two drives - in a controlled envirnoment.

I mean, what's the chance of two Nextos crashing the same day? I already eliminated the laptop from the on-set workflow.

James T Mather

05-31-2008, 01:13 PM

eastco;227347

I mean, what's the chance of two Nextos crashing the same day?
My thoughts exactly but f*ckheads law means I might just get a third for easy sleeping.

david farland

05-31-2008, 04:35 PM

I was thinking of using the macbook pro for visual verification as well as the nexto's.
what sort of battery life were you getting?
As I guess there is no point in having the laptop unless you copy all data onto it and visually scan it...even thou data reads could be from the nexto's.

Steve Sherrick

05-31-2008, 05:56 PM

All the verification speeds on the Hyperdrive are too slow for me unfortunately. If you have to do verification, I would just do the partial... But that almost defeats the purpose.

Is the Nexto faster?

donatello b

05-31-2008, 10:08 PM

YES, the Nexto is faster at copying and it may or may not be faster with verify THAT depends on if you are standing over during the copy process ... the Nexto is a 2 step process
1) you insert card - click COPY ...
2) when it is finished you pull the CF out and the put it bcak in and click VERIFY ..

the hyperdrive does copy & verify automatic = 1 step ....
but even with the nexto being 2 step it is 18-25% faster PROVIDED you are there when it finishes the copy and can reinsert it for the verify ...

i have found that anything less then FULL verify doesn't work (period) ...

Paul Lee

06-01-2008, 12:55 PM

Been using Nexto's for a few months and they are awesome!
Simple
Fast
Long battery life
Good transfer speed

Keep one or two in the AC kit just in case Mac dies or take with us for run and gun.

Mydigitaldiscount has been great to work with.

warwickt

12-19-2008, 03:17 PM

Hi Guys an old thread but worth an update for anyone interested in a RED CF card offload to portable selfpowered disk.

A new/updated option for VERY FAST offload from CF cards in the field to a self powered disk storage system that fits in your pocket is now from NEXTTODI. I beleive it may have been posted elsewhere.

Anyway look here - http://www.nextodi.com/en/

THere are two models of enclosure that now:
• have an 3Gbs SATA connector for SATA1 and SATA2 DDMS (laptop types)
• no firewire now (sad for P2 guys but that's how it is)
• mini USB (way too slow compared to the new SATA i/f)
• support to 2TB of internal SATA2 DDMs should one be available anytime soon.

My colleague has a new ND2700 with a 60mm 500GB Samsung SATA2 disk in it. Thats a huge jump in storage capacity form the previous models (the CF ND2525 that were only PATA interfaces on the enclosure internals).

Now here's the cool bits I think to enhance very fast RED footage offload workflows that using cards. instead of offloading directly to a MACBOOKPRO etc a MACBOOK pro etc.in the field )

SATA2 3Gbs external on the enclosure means that you can get a much higher bandwidth from the DISK ENCLOSURE (the NEXTODI ND27xx's using say an express34 SATA card) to a portable laptop like a Macbookpro or similar
the effective DATA transfer speed between the SATA2 DDM and the CARD is at least 2-3 times that of the older PATA disks .. seems to be true such that you can TRANSFER 1GB form the CF CARD to the SATA2 DDM every 35seconds! approx!
and lastly that the effective interface as mentioned above in 1. is at least 3 time faster than FW400 and maybe just under 4 times fast than USB2 (note EFFECTIVE not spec'd)

So despite the lack of a FW400 port as they dropped it, the SATA interface is really fast for these workflows.

FWIW: if you have several CF cards. When one is full:

set empty on in RED to contimue shooting
take full card and put it into NEXTTODI 27xx that you have strapped to your belt of in your camera bag for one of the CA's to look after. Pressthe 'GO' button on the NEXTPDI and leave it offload the full card at least 4 times faster than USB to a laptop for example
now you have TWO instancesif you want it
when back at the 'ranch" offload all the footage form the NEXTODI CF ND27xx at effective SATA disk speeds to the workstation/suite storage for usual transfer/import workflow.

ALso a very good option for others not using RED but may be using their aqcuisition gear with HCSD etc cards or even s x s who need this capability but dont have ability to card around laptop.

fwiw
w