modified nikon lenses used on Bourne Supremacy - will these work with RED? [Archive]

Ruairi Robinson

08-08-2007, 03:22 PM

http://www.cameraguild.com/index.html?magazine/0708/stoo.htm~top.main_hp

On the second Bourne movie, there wasn’t as much available. So on this one, I went out and got every kind of lightweight zoom I could find. I even had a couple made. I found two Nikon digital lenses and sent them to ARRI in Munich, where they were transformed into lenses that would work with the ARRI film cameras. One was a 28-70mm and the other was an 80-200mm, both T2.8 because they had to be fast.

I’d say that 80 percent of the first unit photography ended up being shot on those two lenses,” Wood says. “The 80-200 worked all the time, but we had some problems with the shorter one. ARRI subsequently decided to develop these lenses, and they are in the process now of making ten of each.

80% of first unit photography eh? Pretty interesting stuff - will these lenses work with RED and the nikon F-mount adaptor?

If so it makes me a lot less snooty about the idea of using SLR lenses with red!

Cheers,
R.

Evin Grant

08-08-2007, 03:31 PM

they should work fine, if your talking about the original Nikon lenses.

PaulClements

08-08-2007, 03:32 PM

Interesting this, especially since the front page of Cooke's website lists Bourne Ultimatum as being shot using their lenses yet no mention in the article???

James T Mather

08-08-2007, 03:49 PM

Interesting this, especially since the front page of Cooke's website lists Bourne Ultimatum as being shot using their lenses yet no mention in the article???

Well I work with the AC from time to time so I'll ask him.

Ruairi Robinson

08-08-2007, 04:03 PM

they should work fine, if your talking about the original Nikon lenses.

Thats pretty awesome. Really, really encouraging!

Question are there any zoom lenses that will be able to pass their focal length data on a frame by frame basis to the camera/metadata etc (would be extremely useful for 3d tracking)

Otherwise it's going to probably be better to use a set of primes except when you need in-camera animated zooms!

cheers,
R.

Martin Drew

08-08-2007, 04:20 PM

Ruairi.

The Red 18-50 will do that through the Cooke /i interface.

M

Bruce Allen

08-08-2007, 04:40 PM

The only question is, which 80-200? AF-D or AF-S?

I'm hoping it's the AF-D because that's the one I bought ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Keith Alan Morris

08-08-2007, 04:52 PM

The only question is, which 80-200? AF-D or AF-S?

I'm hoping it's the AF-D because that's the one I bought ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

How much do these lenses go for?

Bruce Allen

08-08-2007, 05:22 PM

How much do these lenses go for?

Under $900. The fancier AF-S version is more. The VR 70-200 is even more. You'd need to use the 70-200 with the Birger adapter though because it has no aperture ring. Hey, if they activate the VR it might actually be worth the extra!

The 80-200 AF-D is better for cine use than the 17-35 IMHO because its focus wheel doesn't keep spinning beyond infinity. Focus throw is still pretty short though.

Ken Rockwell has a pretty good summary here:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/80200.htm

Matt Garrett and I have tested it with a 35mm adapter attached to both a HV20 and a HVX200. Seemed sharp to me! Certainly as good as the others in the tests we did here:
http://www.freshdv.com/2007/06/nikon-lens-tests-with-the-sgpro-35mm-adapter-and-hvx200.html
I'll put up the 80-200 results when I have a chance.

I also offered it to Evin to test (I live like 5 blocks from him) but so far he hasn't taken me up on it. I offered it to the LART too but they didn't want it either.

So, I am going to take it to South Africa with me and shoot stuff instead ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

PaulClements

08-08-2007, 05:47 PM

Question are there any zoom lenses that will be able to pass their focal length data on a frame by frame basis to the camera/metadata etc (would be extremely useful for 3d tracking)

Hi Ruairi,

The Birger mount should be able to send the data collected from Canon and Nikon lenses to the camera and convert the metadata to Cooke /i or Fuji. Erik has discussed it briefly and refers to it as a babelfish; translating the SLR metadata to a cine format.

The interesting thing about this is that the ARRI converted lenses won't include metadata reporting/display. I presume they are rehoused. If the Nikon Birger mount solves the SLR lens problems with pulling focus and apertureless lenses, using these Nikon zooms along with the Birger mount could potentially better the ARRI conversions used on the Bourne Ultimatum (And at a fraction of the price).

Cheers

Paul

jaadgy akanni

08-08-2007, 09:08 PM

Hi Ruairi,

The Birger mount should be able to send the data collected from Canon and Nikon lenses to the camera and convert the metadata to Cooke /i or Fuji. Erik has discussed it briefly and refers to it as a babelfish; translating the SLR metadata to a cine format.
If the Nikon Birger mount solves the SLR lens problems with pulling focus and apertureless lenses, using these Nikon zooms along with the Birger mount could potentially better the ARRI conversions used on the Bourne Ultimatum (And at a fraction of the price).

Cheers

Paul

Incidently Paul, CVB has also said he's working on a breathing compensation solution. That news has me tingling all over...lol

Keith Alan Morris

08-08-2007, 09:46 PM

I'll put up the 80-200 results when I have a chance.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

sounds good! lets see it! i enjoyed those other tests. good job.

Evin Grant

08-08-2007, 09:54 PM

One thing to watch out for on the 28-70mm f2.8 is zoom creep. The lens moves quite a bit of glass when zoomed and the front element goes from about an inch extention at 28mm to none at 45mm to about an 1/2 inch or so at 70mm. This means that the weight of the elements can sometimes force a zoom when none is desired, especially if you're shoting beyond 30º up or down. Of course a thick rubber band or a zoom gear and motor would also do the trick. Also, I've mentioned this before but this is not a "True" zoom in other words it can't hold critical focus while zooming. Strangely it seems to be in focus at 70mm out at 40mm and back in at 28mm. So it's probably best to use this lens as a variable prime. That said it's one of the sharpest and most beautiful zoom lenses I've ever shot with.
Sample:
http://www.evingrantphoto.com/personalities/samrami_p.gif

Costelloe Michael

08-09-2007, 12:42 AM

Well I work with the AC from time to time so I'll ask him.

Please do and post back. I would be very interested to know how they fared.

I'm pretty surprised by this and am totally in agreement with Ruairi, it will make me decidedly less snooty about considering stills lenses to shoot with. However as I've said here before the Frazier lense comes with some very odd choices of stills lenses when you get it out from Panavision. I was delivered a totally mismatched set when I used it last with glas from all around the globe.

Mike C

Costelloe Michael

08-09-2007, 12:56 AM

That said it's one of the sharpest and most beautiful zoom lenses I've ever shot with.
[/IMG]

Evin,

Is there a model number or particular age to this lense or is it the present crop of lenses available off the shelf from Nikon?

Mike C

Evin Grant

08-09-2007, 02:32 AM

From the Nikon USA website...
28-70mm f/2.8D ED-IF AF-S Zoom-Nikkor
Product #1961
Brand new but back ordered from B&H
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/169589-USA/Nikon_1961_Zoom_W_A_Telephoto_AF_S_Zoom.html

Joe Vinson

08-09-2007, 08:48 AM

I just saw Bourne Ultimatum the other night and kept thinking to myself, "Man, a lot of this looks like it was shot on video." Sharp edges, chromatic aberration, etc. Did no one else have the same reaction?

Keith Alan Morris

08-09-2007, 10:15 AM

Michael Hastings

08-09-2007, 10:48 AM

[it makes me a lot less snooty about the idea of using SLR lenses with red!
Cheers, R.

I think people need to realize that the higher end modern SLR lenses are EXTREMELY good and don't give up much if anything optically to cine lenses. (a lot depends on the particular model of lens). Advancements in Computer Aided Design and Manufacturing combined with advanced materials and the very large number of units sold means the optical technology is really top notch. There will always be issues of breathing, focus travel, and maybe sharpness at full iris opening since these aren't major considerations for still photographers, but on the whole you should be able to find a number of SLR lenses in either Canon or Nikon that can provide really high quality images with RED. (again, a lot depends on the particular model of lens).

Secondly, things should only get better because newer lenses are being designed specifically with superhigh resolution imagers (22MP and above) in mind. This includes dealing with whatever issues are involved with a CMOS imager/cover glass rather than film, since digital is the future for them as well.

The only question is, which 80-200? AF-D or AF-S?

I'm hoping it's the AF-D because that's the one I bought ;)
Bruce Allen

Bruce, it shouldn't matter that much if you are using it with Nikon mount on RED. The big advantage we have over the film shooters is our camera was designed from the start to allow other mounts so they don't have to be remanufactured to fit PL like they had to on the Bourne shoot.

Ruairi Robinson

08-10-2007, 08:52 AM

Stephen Williams

08-10-2007, 10:02 AM

On cinematography.com it was suggested that the lenses may have had more work than just being re-housed (parts from several lenses put together to build a new one etc.)

is this failry common practice when Re-housing a lens (as opposed to just changing the mount)

Hi Ruairi,

It depends how good a lens you want & how much money you are prepared to spend in reaching your goal. I know people who have spent £4500 ($9000) rebuilding a single prime lens, custom work is never cheap.

Stephen

Edit if you had 25 examples of a one lens, then tested it on a lens projector you could just buy the best one!

chuck colburn

08-10-2007, 01:56 PM

Hi Ruairi,

It depends how good a lens you want & how much money you are prepared to spend in reaching your goal. I know people who have spent £4500 ($9000) rebuilding a single prime lens, custom work is never cheap.

Stephen

Edit if you had 25 examples of a one lens, then tested it on a lens projector you could just buy the best one!

That's what CP did when they took medium format still camera lens and made them into 65mm cine lenses. They got about ten to twenty of each lens and picked the best ones. No mixing or matching of seperate componets just new helicoids that turned the right way and new outer housings.

Stephen Williams

08-11-2007, 08:02 AM

That's what CP did when they took medium format still camera lens and made them into 65mm cine lenses. They got about ten to twenty of each lens and picked the best ones. No mixing or matching of seperate componets just new helicoids that turned the right way and new outer housings.

Hi Chuck,

I wonder if Red will let people hand pick their lenses! I know you managed to do that with Cooke Zooms a no of years ago!

Stephen

Roberto B

08-11-2007, 08:28 AM

we all hope you may.. but because you're an independent one from ###.com forums, i'd guess it depends on your behaviour here as red addicted.. lol

just kidding.. sure.. you're the right guy to give us an independent viewpoint.. take it as compliment since as you know, i have some allergy to the cinematography people.. you're like the gals.. we cannot live with them but we cannot live without them either..

http://clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/TRIXYINAZ/spermandegg_t.gif

Roberto B

08-11-2007, 08:48 AM

btw chuck, my name for these days is pedro.. because this is when there are not others posting from here..
we are a large gang of people living from art.. personally, you could get me on imdb (not youtube http://clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/jasons_smilie/juggle.gif)

on screenwriting blank (or directing field as much as possible) but this could happen if i'd give my usual name on credits but this happens there not here..

Evin Grant

08-14-2007, 02:57 PM

jaadgy akanni

08-14-2007, 04:05 PM

I just picked up a 28-70 f2.8 AFS and I have to say, it's really a gem. I've owned one before but I forgot how crisp and flattering they are. Also it hardly breathes at all. Only at 28mm when doing a macro to near infinity shot can you detect any breathing I would call objectionable. Totally on par with the 18-50 Red from what I remember at NAB. I gotta try and find time to test this puppy.

Hahaha, what a coincidence-Today I almost bought one myself, but my credit wouldn't get it..lol. I'd love to hear what results your tests yield. Great to hear that it does very little breathing. This one's on the list of 4 zooms I'll be acquiring. In order to gather some extra cash, I've begun to sell some of my older nilkkor that I don't consider are up to snuff.

Evin Grant

08-14-2007, 08:58 PM

Yea, I've been e-baying up a storm geting ready for #199. I even sold my 58mm f1.2 NOCT to finance a good follow focus. But now I'm only missing a 14mm f2.8 for the prime set and a Mitchell top baby tripod. I'll have two lens kit options for rental:

AFS Zooms with Birger electronic follow focus.
12-24mm f4
17-35mm f2.8
28-70mm f2.8
70-200mm f2.8VR

Manual focus AI/S Nikkors with Chrosziel follow focus.
14mm f2.8 Sigma
20mm f2.8
28mm f1.4
35mm f1.4
50mm f1.2
85mm f1.4
105mm f2.8 Macro
135mm f2

PaulClements

08-15-2007, 04:27 AM

Ouch on the NOCT, still at least you would've got a decent price for it. Almost seems a shame that a follow focus cost's a similar amount as such a good lens, the two don't compare in my mind in terms of difficulty of manufacture.

Michael Hastings

08-15-2007, 11:44 AM

if you had 25 examples of a one lens, then tested it on a lens projector you could just buy the best one!

I will be using Canon EOS mount lenses. Wondered how we might test lenses in a store to test for the best one? Is there a lens projector setup that's small. Could we do it with charts and a camera?

Would B&H let us test multiple lenses before buying if we go to the store.

Looking for a little help here from the still camera people.

Stephen Williams

08-15-2007, 02:33 PM

I will
be using Canon EOS mount lenses. Wondered how we might test lenses in a store to test for the best one? Is there a lens projector setup that's small. Could we do it with charts and a camera?

Would B&H let us test multiple lenses before buying if we go to the store.

Looking for a little help here from the still camera people.

Hi,

I think they would show you the door!

A friend of mine has a habit of buying 100 identical Canon lenses at a time from B+H for his timetrack system, if I could locate a lens projector in Geneva with a Canon stills mount, that would be an interesting afternoon!

Stephen