Sound Devices 442/702T and RED One

[farroutpro]

I just wanted to give a update on a project I recently finished that was shot on a RED One with Audio Board v2 and firmware v20.1.3. I am happy to report that we had zero problems with recording audio directly to the camera (RED One audio settings at Line Level and gain set to 0dB) and the Sound Devices 442 (http://www.sounddevices.com/products/442master.htm) set to line level out of the A multipin. I also used a Remote Audio Red breakout cable (http://www.trewaudio.com/store/product.php?productid=989&cat=136&page=1) (wired for PSC) with no pads at the TA3 connectors, I also had a TA5 for return monitor. Playback through the camera (headset or the TA5) was a bit 'tinny' sounding but playback through the computer system sounded amazing.

I still recorded sync sound with a Sound Devices 702T (http://www.sounddevices.com/products/702t.htm) with all the usual settings (24b/48k/29.97NDF) and the Red was set to 23.98. We treated the RED like a film camera and I did not continuously feed timecode to the camera. We did use my Ambient ACD301 (http://ambient.de/produkte/timecode/tc_klappe/tc_klappe_e.html) timecode slate (jammed from the 702T) at the start of each take.

This project was for a high end client who had nothing but problems in the past when it came to having audio recorded to a RED camera. In fact when I was contacted by the producer he said that they wanted sync sound because of the history he had. We had a second RED One on the project that was for B-Roll and other non-audio related parts (including high speed frame rates) but when I tested it, (also running the same v20.1.3 firmware but it did not have the v2 Audio Board installed) it would completely over modulate with all the same settings, it was extreme distortion and would have been completely unusable for even reference audio.

It will be nice when RED support combines both audio menus into one sound menu for easier setup.

[Tom Visser]

Hi Scott,

Love your podcasts, thanks for your informative work. One question with your workflow... I also have the ACD301RF. When running 29.97 on the recorder, is it possible to crossjam the ACD301RF to 23.976? Ok, this is a serious case of RTFM. If not and the ACD is running 29.97 timecode, does the editor simply sync to the .01 frames forcing a lock to the top of every second only?

[farroutpro]

Hi Scott,

Love your podcasts, thanks for your informative work. One question with your workflow... I also have the ACD301RF. When running 29.97 on the recorder, is it possible to crossjam the ACD301RF to 23.976? Ok, this is a serious case of RTFM. If not and the ACD is running 29.97 timecode, does the editor simply sync to the .01 frames forcing a lock to the top of every second only?

Tom

I see no reason to cross jam and in fact I see it as bad information for the editor since the slate should match your audio timecode. If you need 23.976 then your whole workflow should be the same. I would suggest working backwards from whatever the final product will be and then setup accordingly as the editor and all involved agree upon.

[Rob Castiglione]

Scott, I agree with your comment that all audio related items should be in the same place on the menu. My work around is to have the user definable buttons on the back of the Red exclusively assigned to Audio functions. That speeds things up a bit.

In addition, i am really hoping that the Epic Red audio module has physical knobs for gain (though sadly I have not seen them on the pictures thus far).

[ericyoung]

...In addition, i am really hoping that the Epic Red audio module has physical knobs for gain (though sadly I have not seen them on the pictures thus far).

Yes, I hope that the audio isn't once again neglected.

[Tom Visser]

Tom

I see no reason to cross jam and in fact I see it as bad information for the editor since the slate should match your audio timecode. If you need 23.976 then your whole workflow should be the same. I would suggest working backwards from whatever the final product will be and then setup accordingly as the editor and all involved agree upon.

I've always heard that it is safer for the audio recorder to run 29.97 vice 23.976, on a 23.976 shoot, despite the fact that they are the same exact speed in terms of audio, but since I don't have any post experience, don't really know why exactly this is. Is this a throwback to legacy post workflows and not as relevant as it was before or is there still a major issue with this? I find it sometimes difficult to actually get answers from post on many of the shoot that I'm on and I basically have to advertise my settings and get a "unless told otherwise" disclaimer thrown in there to cover my behind.

[Rob Castiglione]

What would be terrific are the same indented buttons for gain that are on the Sound Devices 722.

[ericyoung]

What would be terrific are the same indented buttons for gain that are on the Sound Devices 722.

Seconded.

[Tom Visser]

What would be terrific are the same indented buttons for gain that are on the Sound Devices 722.

... or have RED commission Sound Devices to make a 702t in a RED module form factor, that way a camera company doesn't have to reinvent the wheel and fumble around with concepts in sound that they don't fully understand.

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

... or have RED commission Sound Devices to make a 702t in a RED module form factor, that way a camera company doesn't have to reinvent the wheel and fumble around with concepts in sound that they don't fully understand.

That's an awesome idea.

Perhaps Jim should get together with SD CEO...

[farroutpro]

And I just did yet another ROv2 job (used the Sound Devices 788T (http://www.sounddevices.com/products/788t.htm) this time, with the audio set to Line Level, No Phantom Power and 0dB for the gain on the Red and -4dB on both outputs 1 & 2 on the 788T to get the -18dB tone level to hit the hash marks) with out any problems with the audio (the camera dept. had quite a few with crashes and dropped frames) but since I was doing sync sound even if the audio on camera isn't perfect the master files should be. I recorded 5 tracks and a mix track directly to the compact flash and to the INT HDD of the SD 788T. Camera had the current v20.1.3 firmware.

[farroutpro]

And I just did yet another ROv2 job (used the Sound Devices 788T (http://www.sounddevices.com/products/788t.htm) this time, with the audio set to Line Level, No Phantom Power and 0dB for the gain on the Red and -4dB on both outputs 1 & 2 on the 788T to get the -18dB tone level to hit the hash marks) with out any problems with the audio (the camera dept. had quite a few with crashes and dropped frames) but since I was doing sync sound even if the audio on camera isn't perfect the master files should be. I recorded 5 tracks and a mix track directly to the compact flash and to the INT HDD of the SD 788T. Camera had the current v20.1.3 firmware.

Correction - it was -20dB for tone not -18dB

[Karl Lohninger]

Now Scott, may I ask, what 'build' was your camera and did you have the new audio 'board' ;-)

But besides this obviously bad joke, how did you sync camera and recorder?

[farroutpro]

Now Scott, may I ask, what 'build' was your camera and did you have the new audio 'board' ;-)

But besides this obviously bad joke, how did you sync camera and recorder?

For all jobs I do, we use a Ambient ACD301 (http://www.ambient.de/produkte/timecode/tc_klappe/tc_klappe_e.html) timecode slate.

[farroutpro]

Did a another job, this time with the 552 and the ROv2 using the XLR snake and sent timecode back through the headphone returns to the 552. Waited for the Red to roll then hit record on the 552. It will be interesting to see if everything matches up with the camera. Audio was sent line level and I used all the same settings as the 442 from below.