ISO... today

[Jannard]

Today, we believe the RED ONE camera should be rated at ISO 500.

A bit depends on the scene. But we are rating at ISO 500 for everything here on the "Wanted" set.

Jim

[Jared VanLeuven]

That's great news, Jim.

EDIT: Forgot the exclamation marks!!!!!!!!!!!

[Steven Parker]

Wow, that's excellent. I was quite happy with 320ASA.

What's happening that's making you guys re-evaluate the 'baseline' ASA?

Thanks!

[Poi Boy]

I need more ND's
Aloha
-A

[Steve Freebairn]

This is great news!!!!!!!!!!!

[Volker Ehlers]

Great news...my (female) Super Speed set is asking for a night out with #818...everyday:love:

[Johnny Friday]

humm....yes indeed good news. As mentioned earlier...nd filters! that's difficult underwater in a housing....having to figure out exposure settings first, then add a filter later--and of course light changes again u/w with a cloud or something---then wait for the cloud. wow i was used to the build in filters on the hvx200!
but i can't complain about the rating of iso500 - make for great night shooting in my case.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

I was allways to bad in mathematics, but this means 7 stopps ND down for a T3 and 24p/shutter 180 on bright sunlight?

[martinnoweck]

jim,

can i rate the sensor also lower? (if it is possible to push way above 10000 ASA is it possible to "pull" for example to 50 ASA?)

kind regards,
martin

[Joe Aurili]

I thought FOR SURE it would be rated at ISO 3200 ;)

[Steve Freebairn]

jim,

can i rate the sensor also lower? (if it is possible to push way above 10000 ASA is it possible to "pull" for example to 50 ASA?)

kind regards,
martin

That's a great question. I'd also really like to know the answer to that.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

The answer is no as it was discussed in an other thread, forgot where

[Johnny Friday]

jim,

can i rate the sensor also lower? (if it is possible to push way above 10000 ASA is it possible to "pull" for example to 50 ASA?)

kind regards,
martin

I haven't checked any other posts.....but is that acutally possible? to select an ISO rating up to 500 in a menu option or something?? can't imagine it is...but had to ask.

[martinnoweck]

this is no complain - 500 ASA is great news!

martin

[Johnny Friday]

this is no complain - 500 ASA is great news!

martin

INDEED!!!

[martinnoweck]

The answer is no as it was discussed in an other thread, forgot where

thanks daniel.
regards,
martin

[Volker Ehlers]

hi artsbeat,
7 stops down from bright sunlight?
I think you could say so...bright sunlight at average 100 000 lux and a proper exposure for 18% gray at around 1000 lux for T3 (?!?) at ISO 500 should give you roughly seven stops...Can we get a lux rating of some sort?

With a T1.3 it seems to be possible to shoot ext night without having to "blow out" existing lighting conditions...extremly cool...

Man i hope the flicks are going to be as good as the camera...:whistling:

[Jarred Land]

You just need to remember to protect the highlights, and after alot of shooting the last couple weeks 500 seems to be a pretty good average in the locations we have been. Yesterday all day we just seemed to peg it perfectly at 500.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

We need definitively some dark Oakley Sunglasses in front of the lens. To bad Jim is sold out :matrix:

[David Cubbage]

ASA 500; great news!!!

Thank you Jim and Red Team; I can go to bed now with a smirk on my face and a warm Red glow.

[Laco Zamba]

Hi Jarred,

what about shutter speeds? Do they shoot 1/48 only?

[Jarred Land]

Hi Jarred,

what about shutter speeds? Do they shoot 1/48 only?

as of now our shutter speeds are adjustable between 1/32 and 1/2000.

[Laco Zamba]

It's good news. Thanks.

[Roberto B]

as of now our shutter speeds are adjustable between 1/32 and 1/2000.

where are you, man?.. spain?..

[Justin O'Neill]

I remember reading that Jarred was on the set of "Wanted".

[Roberto B]

so russia?..

[Damien Molineaux]

Wow !

[Jarred Land]

where are you, man?.. spain?..

I am actually in Chicago right now on Wanted.. but ask that question again in a day or two and it's likely to change.

[Chris Gearhart]

Welcome to the windy city! Will you get a credited role?

[damonbots]

So Jarred,

When you're hanging out with a billionaire having lunch or whatever and the bill comes, do you even feign like you're going for your wallet?

[Volker Ehlers]

Hi Jarred,

I know other things are more important right now but how far are we away from speed ramping with shutter compensation on Red-One?

[Roberto B]

I am actually in Chicago right now on Wanted.. but ask that question again in a day or two and it's likely to change.

i will.. ehehehe..

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/auto/car-smiley-005.gif enjoy it man.. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/verkleidung/costumed-smiley-034.gif

if you'll be over here, say something on the way.. to take a look on re.. ooops.. on you.. red can wait.. :)

[Phil Bates]

Today, we believe the RED ONE camera should be rated at ISO 500.
Jim

This question may have been asked before, so I apologize in advance if it has:

Will there be a gain adjustment? If so, can we set the gain at a minus number? I would love to be able to set -12db or lower in certain situations..

Thanks,
Phil

www.artbeats.com

[Alexander Nikishin]

Awesome news, should make for some excellent interior and night shoots.

[Steve Gibby]

This question may have been asked before, so I apologize in advance if it has:

Will there be a gain adjustment? If so, can we set the gain at a minus number? I would love to be able to set -12db or lower in certain situations..

Thanks,
Phil

www.artbeats.com


Yes, there is a Gain adjustment measured in 3dB steps available. That affects the RGB recordings, video outputs and EVF feed. When recording RAW the value is stored as metadata, so you can use this value for gain in post, or ignore it - your choice.

Stuart English
7/1/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3039&page=2



In the same way that you can push a filmstock, you can adjust gain when "developing" RAW into RGB.

The visual result is similar - a brighter image but an increased noise floor.

Stuart English
(later in same thread)


If you record REDCODE RGB then any Gain selected is applied prior to compression i.e its already affecting the RGB image the camera records. If you record REDCODE RAW, then Gain is just stored as metadata, and it is then used (or not, as its your choice) in the conversion of 12 bit RAW to 10 bit or 8 bit RGB / 4:2:2 in post production.

Stuart English
(later in same thread)



There's an electronic gain in the RGB pathway, so, if you shoot 5 stops under, you just put the EV compensation +5.0EV.

Graeme Nattress
7/13/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=58225&posted=1#post58225


What it means, is that, all things being equal, you can under-expose a shot by 5 stops (8000ISO to 250ISO is 5 stops) and "get away with it".

Graeme Nattress
7/14/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3222


I think RGB gain is in 10th stop increments. It certainly is in the REDCINE decode, which is what we're doing.

Remember, this is all without noise reduction, which you could always apply if you want.

Graeme Nattress
7/15/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3235&page=8



The RGB monitoring pathway runs on the same image processing code as REDCINE, so you'd dial in +3.0EV if you rate the camera at 250 but are wanting to see it at 2000. This gets stored in the metadata.

Graeme Nattress
(later in same thread)



There's two things - analogue sensor gain ahead of the A-to-D, and digital gain, which occurs post digitisation. Both are useful.

What we're doing in these tests is to show that if you under expose, and gain up in post (ie digital gain) what results you get.

Graeme Nattress
7/17/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3235&page=11

[Justin O'Neill]

Wow, that is amazing! When Phil posted that question I was thinking to myself, where's Gibby and his mad search skillz when you need him?

Then, BAM, a couple minutes later there he is with the answers as usual. Very impressive Gibby. Thank you.

[Paul Hazlett]

Yes, there is a Gain adjustment measured in 3dB steps available. That affects the RGB recordings, video outputs and EVF feed. When recording RAW the value is stored as metadata, so you can use this value for gain in post, or ignore it - your choice.

Stuart English
7/1/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3039&page=2



In the same way that you can push a filmstock, you can adjust gain when "developing" RAW into RGB.

The visual result is similar - a brighter image but an increased noise floor.

Stuart English
(later in same thread)


If you record REDCODE RGB then any Gain selected is applied prior to compression i.e its already affecting the RGB image the camera records. If you record REDCODE RAW, then Gain is just stored as metadata, and it is then used (or not, as its your choice) in the conversion of 12 bit RAW to 10 bit or 8 bit RGB / 4:2:2 in post production.

Stuart English
(later in same thread)



There's an electronic gain in the RGB pathway, so, if you shoot 5 stops under, you just put the EV compensation +5.0EV.

Graeme Nattress
7/13/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=58225&posted=1#post58225


What it means, is that, all things being equal, you can under-expose a shot by 5 stops (8000ISO to 250ISO is 5 stops) and "get away with it".

Graeme Nattress
7/14/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3222


I think RGB gain is in 10th stop increments. It certainly is in the REDCINE decode, which is what we're doing.

Remember, this is all without noise reduction, which you could always apply if you want.

Graeme Nattress
7/15/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3235&page=8



The RGB monitoring pathway runs on the same image processing code as REDCINE, so you'd dial in +3.0EV if you rate the camera at 250 but are wanting to see it at 2000. This gets stored in the metadata.

Graeme Nattress
(later in same thread)



There's two things - analogue sensor gain ahead of the A-to-D, and digital gain, which occurs post digitisation. Both are useful.

What we're doing in these tests is to show that if you under expose, and gain up in post (ie digital gain) what results you get.

Graeme Nattress
7/17/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3235&page=11

Dude, you better give the Gibster a soild thanks for the research!!!

That is a helluva archive you got there sir..!!!!!

or is it all just swimming around in your head..

[Steve Gibby]

LOL...! I simply did a copy/paste from the "Gain" file in my own archive on RED that I've maintained over all these months of RED development. Since RED was announced 20 months ago I've been keeping a running archive categorized by subject matter. My archive goes way beyond RED subjects - many other areas of technology in the motion media industry. I like research, plus the archive helps me when I write tech magazine articles. I loved research in college while I was working on my degree...and simply kept the habit going since then.

I'm always happy to help when I can by dippin' into my archive... :biggrin:

[Proteus]

Negative values though, are not possible (or useful). You can underexpose and increase the gain (increasing also the noise) but you can't burn the highlights and then use a negative gain to bring them back.

An analogy would be the use of a microphone. If you overdrive the microphone (the sensor) and the sound starts distorting or clipping the peaks, you can't restore them by lowering the input gain on the recorder.

[Jaime Vallés]

This is great news! 500 ISO should work very nice in many natural light situations. Very exciting!

[Justin Anderson]

I am actually in Chicago right now on Wanted.. but ask that question again in a day or two and it's likely to change.

Say hi to Angelina for me. If she's interested you can pass along my phone number or some modeling pics that I shot in front of my bathroom mirror. :weight_lift:

...jus' sayin.

[Harmonica]

Fantastic news! Way to go Red Team!

[SF Geek]

Has anyone heard anything about analogue gain adjustment?

[Evin Grant]

As in adding electrical charge to the sensor? I think the point of the approach Red has taken to Gain is to avoid such permanent actions. I'm guesing the difference in quality is neglidgable or they would have implemented it.

BTW this is always what I thought would happen, ISO 500 just made sense if you're protecting highlights. Way to go Red team!

[SF Geek]

Sorry Evin. I meant negative analogue gain.

[Evin Grant]

Hmmm, I think they call that an ND Filter:matrix:

But honestly I'm not sure what all the hub bub is about NDs. They just go along with the territory. If you hate them so try the Shing Ray variable ND filter.

[jbeale]

An effective "Negative analogue gain" would be possible only if the normal or default condition is using some positive analog gain prior to A/D conversion, and that would also mean that some potential dynamic range is being left on the table. As someone else mentioned, if your image is giving you clipping in one or more channels, no subsequent electronics can bring that back, no matter what gain setting is dialed in.

[Joe Aurili]

So it might be a good idea to slightly underexpose the RAW all the time?

[GlennChan]

I think the Red team has looked at this... you can see the results in the various ISO threads. They shot at various levels of (analog) gain. You can compare between using analog gain and electronic/digital gain. To do the latter, throw the image into photoshop and go to work with the levels adjustment layer.

2-

As someone else mentioned, if your image is giving you clipping in one or more channels, no subsequent electronics can bring that back, no matter what gain setting is dialed in.
You can sort of do this. If the white balance is off, then not all the channels clip at the same time.

You can do some highlight recovery techniques to guess the missing channel information... it's the same idea as highlight recovery in the RAW tool in Photoshop.

[JD Holloway]

500 asa is great news. That means 1000 asa is only one pushed stop away.
NDs are WAY cheaper then generators and large HMIs
Nice to know you could get away with lighting a night exterior with a 4K instead of an 18K if you had to.

Crystal synch put-puts anyone?

[JD Holloway]

Did I mention this is my double-ton post?

Sorry lame...:tongue:

[jbeale]

You can do some highlight recovery techniques to guess the missing channel information... it's the same idea as highlight recovery in the RAW tool in Photoshop.
Lots of well-informed folks on this board :) You can extrapolate some missing detail from the other channels, that is true; I've done some of that in Photoshop also. Still I would consider that more a "disaster recovery" technique rather than something you'd actually plan your exposure around.

[Brook Willard]

Nice... jet-setting around the world and discovering new bits about the camera. Way too cool.

[Phil Bates]

Yes, there is a Gain adjustment measured in 3dB steps available. That affects the RGB recordings, video outputs and EVF feed. When recording RAW the value is stored as metadata, so you can use this value for gain in post, or ignore it - your choice.

Stuart English
7/1/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3039&page=2

...

There's two things - analogue sensor gain ahead of the A-to-D, and digital gain, which occurs post digitisation. Both are useful.

What we're doing in these tests is to show that if you under expose, and gain up in post (ie digital gain) what results you get.

Graeme Nattress
7/17/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3235&page=11


Wow, Gibby, thanks for that in-depth reply. So, if I understand correctly, when recording REDCODE Raw, no matter what you set the gain at, the sensor is going to capture at a sensitivity of 500ASA. If you under expose, you adjust later in post. Any gain setting is just metadata that can be applied later, right?

This would make sense since the CMOS based Phantom acts the same way. In fact, white balance is also stored as metadata too (on the Phantom)

So, by adjusting gain, you can't force the camera to be less light sensitive and substitute the adjustment for ND filters --which would be handy--.

But, I am having a harder time understanding the differences when recording RGB. Maybe it's because it's late and my mind is fried.

Thanks again,
Phil

www.artbeats.com

[I Bloom]

Yes, there is a Gain adjustment measured in 3dB steps available. That affects the RGB recordings, video outputs and EVF feed. When recording RAW the value is stored as metadata, so you can use this value for gain in post, or ignore it - your choice.


Ok so let me just clarify something. What I am understanding from these posts (thanks Gibby) is that no matter where you set the gain, the data recorded in a RAW file will always be exactly the same. All that is changing is the metadata. When you get to REDCine or FCP the metadata will adjust the apparent exposure that you see, but again RAW data is never transformed. Am I right so far?

Does the EVF and LCD reflect the gain adjustment while shooting?
Does the HD-SDI?

It seems at first like there is an advantage to using analog gain adjustments, despite the increase in noise. But I guess this all comes from a misunderstanding of the Mysterium sensor. Can you explain the difference between a RAW image where the sensor gain is adjusted in post, and one where that gain is adjusted analog?

IBloom

[Corrado Silveri]

Thanks Steve,
and also thanks Graeme and Stuart.

500 is a great place to start in my experience...

Just a quick question: I understand that the digital gain doesn't affect the Raw image, but only adjust visualization in the VF or Video Out, but what happen if I need to see an Histogram (just to check my curve, floor and ceiling), I have any opportunities?

A sort of curve-visualization in the VF (maybe with/without gain applied)?

Just a curiosity, thanks...

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Gibby you gave up your secret! I was wondering after that last run "What on earth was the keyword he used... 'Gain' isn't even in most of the quotes! "

[Lauri Kettunen]

ISO 500 sounds wonderful.

To which extent the wavelet compression is in our favour in low light shooting? I mean, noise is typically about high frequency components although easily observed by eye. As the compression employed is lossy, thus some data is discarded, and one could easily come to the conclusion that what is thrown away is especially about noise.

Does this partly explain the wonderful preliminary RED test shots up to ISO 4000? Furthermore, does the signal processing on the sensor level raw data yield more "space" compared to filtering out the noise in post from a RGB-file or from a film?

[Karl H]

Technical question, if 500ASA is the native ISO of the sensor and we cannot go lower than this, how is thie achieved in a DSLR for example?

I can choose anywhere from 100 to 1600 on my DSLR, the result being at 100ASA I can shoot at lower shutter speeds outdoors than at 400 or 500ASA . It seems, though it could be a trick, that at 100 you need more light coming into the camera. Are they not dialing back their sensor here too?

Or is it that my DSLR is rated at 100ASA natively and we're increasing gain from there up? Red on the other hand is rated at 500ASA so it will only start at 500 and up?

[Moir]

So it might be a good idea to slightly underexpose the RAW all the time?

When shooting RAW with a DSLR, I believe it is more usual to actually do the opposite and "expose to the right" (of the histogram). So long as the highlights are not blown, it's arguably better to darken the image in post than lighten it and increase noise.

[Michael Lindsay]

Today, we believe the RED ONE camera should be rated at ISO 500.

A bit depends on the scene.

Jim

I believe the key to Jim saying ISO 500 is..


You just need to remember to protect the highlights, and after allot of shooting the last couple weeks 500 seems to be a pretty good average in the locations we have been .

With motion, often unlike stills, latitude is so very desirable. Rateing any Canon digital SLR at iso 500 and shooting raw would allow you around a couple of stops highlight recovery..

I suspect in a studio with lots of time and a simple setup iso 500 would not produce the cleanest results...iso200 or where ever it bottoms out would be cleaner..

I nearly alway rate still camera's up a bit (outside of a studio) and look forward to being able to do the same with Red...

In truth 'I can't wait' I'm sick of HDCAM.. and in the UK you can't seem to get hold of an F23 I wouldn't be suprised if I can hire a red (off an early number holder) before I actually get to shoot with a f23..

I would be very interested what is the lowest iso you can reasonably use with Red?

regards

Michael (2 red's not coming early enough) Lindsay

[Michael Lindsay]

Moir..


When shooting RAW with a DSLR, I believe it is more usual to actually do the opposite and "expose to the right" (of the histogram).

The problem with that stills approach is twofold:

Things move and shot to shot consistency..

exposing to the right will not work with typical drama content.. it will work with some stuff though

regards

Michael

[Thor Wixom]

This is great news.

I'm shooting a feature next year about a group of people stranded in the desert by an airplane crash. It will involve a lot of campfire shots that could be tricky because there isn't supposed to be any source of man made light.

ISO 500 might enable me to shoot with only the light of the fire.

I'm excited!

-Thor

[Craig Schober]

Moir..



The problem with that stills approach is twofold:

Things move and shot to shot consistency..

exposing to the right will not work with typical drama content.. it will work with some stuff though

regards

Michael

but isn't that the point of raw-to correct every shot in post. unless i'm shooting rgb, i expect every raw shot to be at least a little inconsistent (even among multiple takes). they might not look inconsistent in the adjusted evf or lcd but i would need to tweak every shot in post for exposure and color whether it's exposed to the left or right. at least that's my understanding of the raw digital cinema sensor workflow.

[Yuval Shrem]

Today, we believe the RED ONE camera should be rated at ISO 500.

A bit depends on the scene. But we are rating at ISO 500 for everything here on the "Wanted" set.

Jim


Yes!

Exactly what I was hoping to hear!!
This is wonderful.

Congratulations!!! - Great work!:biggrin:

[Stephen Williams]

Yes!

Exactly what I was hoping to hear!!
This is wonderful.

Congratulations!!! - Great work!:biggrin:

Hi,

It's really not surprising from looking at David's Stumps last November. I wrote at the time (on another forum) that I would rate the Red camera at 500 asa giving about 1/2 stop headroom to the apparent 320 asa native speed.

Stephen

[Phil Bates]

It seems at first like there is an advantage to using analog gain adjustments, despite the increase in noise.

IBloom

But I am more concerned with a negative gain adjustment, which on most cameras means a decrease in noise and less need for ND filters. I am still not entirely sure if this logic works on the Red.

Good question regarding whether the EVF/LCD reflects gain adjustments.

Phil
www.artbeats.com

[Jim Arthurs]

Phil, my understanding at the moment is this... if you choose ASA 320 to 500 and your scene is lit to that level accordingly, the RED will exhibit the minimum grain or noise possible for the sensor. If I'm correct, it's just that simple.

As someone else posted, if the camera has a -db function (like CineAlta 900's) it just means they had the sensor wiggle room at or before the processing stage in the first place.

As to the gain/white balance/look visible in the EVF, I've asked this before and the answer has always been "yes".

[Michael Lindsay]

but isn't that the point of raw-to correct every shot in post.

yes (kind of)... You have a int wide with a person and a very hot window... You 'shoot to the right'.. T11 to hold the window.. push in for the CU and 'shoot to the right' T2.8.... I wouldn't want to do this leaving the fix to post. I may compromise a bit and balence up a stop or two in post but a true 'to the right' exposing technique is for still.. IMHO..

[Craig Schober]

yes (kind of)... You have a int wide with a person and a very hot window... You 'shoot to the right'.. T11 to hold the window.. push in for the CU and 'shoot to the right' T2.8.... I wouldn't want to do this leaving the fix to post. I may compromise a bit and balence up a stop or two in post but a true 'to the right' exposing technique is for still.. IMHO..

i agree. i think you have to take every shot, both raw and rgb individually just like tweaking every raw shot in post too. and there will always be very dark locations (at least on low budget stuff i shoot) that you just cannot go any further to the right with, but i still see a lot (maybe 2/3 of all shots) of instances where you can implement slight overexposure in digital cinema. anyway, i guess i'll find out when i start testing my red.

[I Bloom]

I am still not entirely sure if this logic works on the Red.


That's what I'm thinking. I haven't been able to figure out exactly why not.

IBloom

[Michael Brennan]

Hmmm, I think they call that an ND Filter:matrix:

But honestly I'm not sure what all the hub bub is about NDs. They just go along with the territory. If you hate them so try the Shing Ray variable ND filter.




The filter wheel is one of the few features found in modern TV camcorders that is worth keeping.


Advantages of interior filter wheel;

Preserves filter, no scraches!
No dust no cleaning!
Fastest implimentation of filters for doc work and run gun.
Enables fast easy viewing and comparison of DoF characteristics of different Tstops on monitor (e shutter can do this too if its easy to activate)
Internal filter will work with any lens that fits on camera, regardless of the size of the front element.
No undesirable reflections to worry about or to solve.
No undesirable edge fringing when using ultrawide lenses
Protects sensor.
Motorized filter wheel is a boon for remote head operation, underwater and aerial use.
Frees up space in the mattbox.


Fabricating one for a large sensor may be problematic, but I'd pay a few grand more for one.


Perhaps in RED Two?


Mike Brennan

[Finner]

I usually shoot 50asa outside so 500 is going to need some big big ND. I prefer not to stack if possible. Has anyone ever done a meter test to find what kind of ND you get from welding glass?

[jbeale]

A 3-stop ND filter, which is pretty common, gets you from ASA 500 to about ASA 64. I don't think welding glass is exactly "neutral", I'd expect a color shift.
Also, common welding glass might be "shade 8" through "shade 14" which means 8 ... 14 stops. For example a shade 12 glass (12 stops) gets you from 500 down to ASA 0.12 which is a little bit too dark, unless you are photographing sunspots.

[Steve Gibby]

When shooting RAW with a DSLR, I believe it is more usual to actually do the opposite and "expose to the right" (of the histogram). So long as the highlights are not blown, it's arguably better to darken the image in post than lighten it and increase noise.


Moir..
The problem with that stills approach is twofold:
Things move and shot to shot consistency..
exposing to the right will not work with typical drama content.. it will work with some stuff though
regards
Michael


Graeme Nattress’ advice on that:


1) shoot RAW. That makes digital cinema a lot more easy to use.

2) expose correctly. Expose to the right - just like you do with a DSLR.

3) SNR = Dynamic range. You place the white clipping point where you want it, and let the shadows fall where they fall.

Graeme Nattress
11/20/06
DVX User RED forum
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=78640



An excellent tutorial on “exposing to the right”

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/expose-right.shtml

It's talking about DSLR cameras--but the principles are the same.

Graeme Nattress
(same thread)

[Paolo Tinari]

[B][SIZE="3"]

An excellent tutorial on “exposing to the right”

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/expose-right.shtml

It's talking about DSLR cameras--but the principles are the same.

Graeme Nattress
(same thread)[/I]



Nice link. I was trying to evaluate by myself the correct meaning of "exposing to the right" but i was only able to exclude any political meaning so far.
So thanks,
p.

[Stephen Williams]

A 3-stop ND filter, which is pretty common, gets you from ASA 500 to about ASA 64. I don't think welding glass is exactly "neutral", I'd expect a color shift.
Also, common welding glass might be "shade 8" through "shade 14" which means 8 ... 14 stops. For example a shade 12 glass (12 stops) gets you from 500 down to ASA 0.12 which is a little bit too dark, unless you are photographing sunspots.

Hi,

A ND 2.1 (7 stops) will be more useful IMHO than an ND 0.9 (3 stops) unless you want to shoot everything @ T17 on a sunny day.

Stephen

[Poi Boy]

The term " exposing to the right " can be very misleading. I think the term should be "exposing a teenie tiny bit to the right without going to far because you don't want to blow the highlights and it won't make that much difference in the noise level anyway ," Maybe that is a bit wordy. Seriously though, you have to temper your interpretation of a histogram with some common sense as it relates to the scene in front of you. Sometimes you want an area to be blown out and if you go strictly by the histogram you will be fooled.
Aloha
-A

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I am looking forward to shooting some stuff 3 stops over, with some on camera filtration and then shooting the same scene 1 stop under and pushing it in post then comparing them. Every "look" has a different goal and sometimes I want to limit the parts of the frame that have detail or simply control the edges of the blown portion for a softer or harder feel.

Battlestar Galactica is shot on the CineAlta (F950s I think) with a lot of overexposed scenes. I have always been surprised at the hue and saturation levels in the highlights since the CineAltas typically read differently. I have often wondered if they expose closer to normal and then push it in post to hold some chroma above the knee. Perhaps they just run unusual settings for gamma, knee, etc. Anyone know the scoop?

I anticipate that the RedOne will have a totally new rolloff characteristic from the highlights and I am wondering how that will affect the results from familiar filters?

[Karl H]

so are we saying that I wont be able to shoot 100, 200, or 400 ISO with this camera becausse the lowest I can set it is 500?

[Chris Gearhart]

I've assumed the same thing about Battlestar Galactica exposing normally. I'd be interested to know the scoop on that one too.

At least it won't be hard for me to overexpose on the RED!

[Evin Grant]

Internal pre sensor filtration will screw with the optical formulas of a bunch of lenses. 2/3" cameras are all designed with a filter wheel so all 2/3" lenses are designed to accomidate that extra piece of glass. But cinema and still lenses are not, to put an ND into the Red body would require dedicated lenses that had that optical surface accounted for in thier formula. Gel filters can used behind a lens in these cameras becasue they are thin enough not to impact the optical formula.

[Antoine Fabi]

ISO 500 ?

Exellent !

Way easier to add NDs when needed.

and most...it will allow way more natural lighting indoors.

a big plus IMHO

[Damien Molineaux]

so are we saying that I wont be able to shoot 100, 200, or 400 ISO with this camera becausse the lowest I can set it is 500?

We're comparing to film here. The sensor has a sensitivity comparable to 500 ASA film. With a movie camera you can change films. With a digital camera, as of yet, you cannot change sensors. Maybe there will be a day when you will have a set of sensors you can choose from, wether you're shooting outside, inside, at night, etc. In the meantime, since you're stuck with one sensor, if the quality is there, it is preferable that it be sensitive. If you have too much light, like in broad daylight, you put in ND (neutral density) filters which allows you stop down and makes the sensor behave like it was a lower ASA.

See Jim Jannard's post here :
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3217&highlight=jannard+ND

It says it all.

cheers,
Damien

[Evin Grant]

I still say the Singh Ray Variable ND is the way to go, 2-8 stops of ND in one filter. Pick your stop and just adjust your exposure with the filter.
http://www.singh-ray.com/varindann.gif
http://www.singh-ray.com/varind.html

[Nils Ruinet]

I still say the Singh Ray Variable ND is the way to go, 2-8 stops of ND in one filter. Pick your stop and just adjust your exposure with the filter.
http://www.singh-ray.com/varindann.gif
http://www.singh-ray.com/varind.html

Yes... Too bad it's too small for Reds lenses...:sad:
Only 77 and 82mm...
Maybe if enough people were interested, they would consider making larger ones, if it's possible...

[HD Hildebrand]

I still say the Singh Ray Variable ND is the way to go, 2-8 stops of ND in one filter. Pick your stop and just adjust your exposure with the filter.
http://www.singh-ray.com/varindann.gif
http://www.singh-ray.com/varind.html

That is very interesting. Never seen one of those. Guess you just need to get the larger one and step down rings for the varying lenses? Pro's seem that you only get dirt on one side of the element. Con's - can't just swap out lens and swing matte box back into place. Could be easier then constantly swapping ND's though. Does it "click" in 1/8th increments? Can it easily be bumped to another ND level (making it darker or lighter) in mid scene/shot(s)?

Cheers,
Dale

[Poi Boy]

This does look like a great option...have you used one Evin ?
Aloha
-A

[GlennChan]

Battlestar Galactica is shot on the CineAlta (F950s I think) with a lot of overexposed scenes. I have always been surprised at the hue and saturation levels in the highlights since the CineAltas typically read differently. I have often wondered if they expose closer to normal and then push it in post to hold some chroma above the knee. Perhaps they just run unusual settings for gamma, knee, etc. Anyone know the scoop?
(From reading a magazine which I forget the title of... got it at NAB for free)
The article mentioned that the knee saturation function on the F900 was very useful to them. (Sorry, I forget the name of that menu setting.)

Normally with a knee, you end up de-saturating the highlights... you can emulate this by playing around with the color curves in Photoshop. So the DSP usually has an algorithm to compensate for this... on Panasonic cameras it's called "HIGH COLOR".

2- In some situations, the knee saturation algorithm can do evil things (as in, the end result doesn't look very good).

[jbeale]

Does it "click" in 1/8th increments? Can it easily be bumped to another ND level (making it darker or lighter) in mid scene/shot(s)?

I've never used one but from the Singh Ray website, it seems to be freely rotating and uncalibrated so it's up to you to adjust the exposure to suit. Apparently it is two standard linear polarizers, the attenuation is just a function of rotation, so I'd think you could make your own calibration marks. It goes darker than 8 stops too, but they don't recommend using it there due to issues like color problems.

Since it's based on polarizers, you will see the usual polarizing phenomena like reflections off glass, water etc. going away if the filter is at the matching angle.

[Karl H]

We're comparing to film here. The sensor has a sensitivity comparable to 500 ASA film. With a movie camera you can change films. With a digital camera, as of yet, you cannot change sensors. Maybe there will be a day when you will have a set of sensors you can choose from, wether you're shooting outside, inside, at night, etc. In the meantime, since you're stuck with one sensor, if the quality is there, it is preferable that it be sensitive. If you have too much light, like in broad daylight, you put in ND (neutral density) filters which allows you stop down and makes the sensor behave like it was a lower ASA.

See Jim Jannard's post here :
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3217&highlight=jannard+ND

It says it all.

cheers,
Damien


Hi Damien

well this is what confuses me because I can choose the ISO on my DSLR. 100-1600. Im pretty sure my canon does not have a native rating of ISO100..... though thats the only explaination i can think of if you're saying 500ASA is the lowest we can go on Red.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I don't think welding glass is exactly "neutral", I'd expect a color shift.

Various types of glass / lenses out there for welding. Most are definitely not neutral, in fact I can't think of any that are even close. Expect a green tint (sometimes pink or amber). And In most situations they are excessive in their light blocking ability to the point where they're nearly opaque or nearly impossible to see through unless you're in very intense sunlight or looking at your welding arc. Pretty cool for watching a solar eclipse. Many new welding shields and glass are using LCD screens or other tech that can change from transparent to opaque (or vice versa) when an electric current is applied. And you know what, this is essentially the tech being employed in those variable electronic ND systems.

I could bring a piece of welding glass or even a helmet with an electronic black-out to LART. Then we could shoot wide open at ISO 1600 in the afternoon sun. :nerd: :biggrin:

[jbeale]

well this is what confuses me because I can choose the ISO on my DSLR. 100-1600. I'm pretty sure my canon does not have a native rating of ISO 100....

I'm pretty sure the Canon DSLRs do have a native ISO of 100, for the reasons mentioned earlier. You may have a different definition of "native", but I'm using it to mean, the equivalent sensor response before any gain stages. It is true that Canon DSLR cameras still do really well at the higher ISO settings, and that is a tribute to their low-noise amps and I suspect also noise reduction algorithms.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I still say the Singh Ray Variable ND is the way to go, 2-8 stops of ND in one filter. Pick your stop and just adjust your exposure with the filter.
http://www.singh-ray.com/varindann.gif
http://www.singh-ray.com/varind.html

That looks pretty cool. For compact configurations without a mattebox, that's like a no-brainer. I think I'm going to pick one up for my Nikon kit... The 77mm size is a direct fit for the Nikon 17-35mm and 85mm.

[Finner]

I usually shoot 50asa outside so 500 is going to need some big big ND. I prefer not to stack if possible. Has anyone ever done a meter test to find what kind of ND you get from welding glass?

So after seeing responses to this I have come to realize that if I don't put a laughing face or a haha people can not tell when I am joking.

[Chris Gearhart]

Lead glass from colonial times has worked well for me. (ROTFL)

[Poi Boy]

For me as well. (ROTFLLADMFWNO)
-A

[Jeff Kilgroe]

So after seeing responses to this I have come to realize that if I don't put a laughing face or a haha people can not tell when I am joking.

That's why I put the :nerd: and :biggrin: after my post. Although, I could still bring a 4x6 electronic weld glass to LART just to do it. :bleh:

[Michael Brennan]

Internal pre sensor filtration will screw with the optical formulas of a bunch of lenses. 2/3" cameras are all designed with a filter wheel so all 2/3" lenses are designed to accomidate that extra piece of glass. But cinema and still lenses are not, to put an ND into the Red body would require dedicated lenses that had that optical surface accounted for in thier formula. Gel filters can used behind a lens in these cameras becasue they are thin enough not to impact the optical formula.

Great! lets do a filter wheel with gels.

Mike Brennan

[Stephen Williams]

Gel filters can used behind a lens in these cameras becasue they are thin enough not to impact the optical formula.

Hi Evin,

If using a wide angle lens wide open you will have to reduce the camera's FFD by 1/3 of the thickness of the gel filter behind the lens. Some Cooke Zooms have a Gel slot in the optical path of the lens, those don't need to be compensated for.

Stephen

[Michael Brennan]

Some reasonably priced early industrial ccd cameras had a user adjustable mechanism to alter the distance of the sensor to the lens mount.

While you're at it, a sensor that can move like a rising back in a 5x4 view camera would find friends.



Mike Brennan

[Tony Lorentzen]

Jim - say hi to Angelina from me (and have fun) :-D

[Cail Young]

I usually shoot 50asa outside so 500 is going to need some big big ND. I prefer not to stack if possible. Has anyone ever done a meter test to find what kind of ND you get from welding glass?

Should be around ND500; that's what the sun-shooting filter I've used was rated at...

[Sanjin Jukic]

Today, we believe the RED ONE camera should be rated at ISO 500. - Jim

...now our shutter speeds are adjustable between 1/32 and 1/2000. - Jarred

Amazing news today!!!

[ahauser]

"it depends a bit on the scene"
"protect your highlights".....

How does one protect their highlights
without a big lighting budget? You stop down yes? and
expose for your highlights potentially underexposing
your F/G action.
500ASA is great if you can retrieve
information from your highlights without destroying the
intent of the rest of the scene. IF it Clips the highlights
then saying its 500ASA is ...well...a little sus in my books.

GrAde

[Brook Willard]

Hauser, exactly. Stop down so you're not clipping and raise the exposure [if necessary] in post. We've already seen just how far into the shadows this camera can read [ridiculously far, to the uninitiated]. Do a google search for "expose to the right," a common practice in DSLR shooting. Those who save their highlights are going to be able to make some really terrific looks.

[ahauser]

Thanks Brook,
This doesnt really make sense as, if your wanting to retain the
highlights, youre essentially "exposing to the left".
DSLR photography is somewhat different to motion picture photography
as you dont have the same ability to control shutter/exposure times,..
well you can electronically but its electronic and still not the same.

Quote "Also be aware though that by doing this you are in fact effectively lowering the ISO used to capture the image, requiring slower shutter speeds and/or larger apertures. If you are hand-holding the camera, or shooting moving objects, the tradeoff may not be worth the reduced noise level."

Big budget films with big lighting trucks can get around this but I feel
that for INDIE projects this will have its limitations like any other digital acquisition camera. Ive seen it with the D20, the genesis, the F900.
The only camera Ive seen that gives good white latitude is the Genesis and even that was off a really well shot short film.
Can I be rude and say that from a colorists POV that sees lots of footage
that about 5-10% of DOP's get it right in camera. And they usually have decent budgets behind them cause theyre really good mechanics of
controlling light and visual contrast within a scene, whilst working with the constraints of Space, budget mixed lighting ect.

How do these other 80 % of operators deal with such limitations.

GrAde

[Poi Boy]

ahauser, the term "exposing to the right " is a bit misleading. You are exposing to the right but still keeping the highlights from overexposing. It is a bad term.
Aloha
-A

[Simon Blackledge]

It should be

"expose to the right, but don't blow the highlights.. but little specs are fine its the larger areas you need to watch out for " lol

highlights really do help.. examples under-exposed

http://gallery.mac.com/simonblackledge#100028

A good friend of mine once said " look at the shot and squint, thats what your probably going to get"


s

[Gavin Greenwalt]

A good friend of mine once said " look at the shot and squint, thats what your probably going to get"


I can't tell you how excited I was too see an exposure slider in Nuke's frame buffer. Finally I can stop squinting to judge black and white levels! :sorcerer:

It's always the little things that count. I hope RED features a squinto-meter-slider accessible through the little control nipple on the back.

[Simon Blackledge]

Lol.. yeah that is a really cool feature!

[Emanuel A.]

This has been producing results on all my glass purchases, for instance. It's an amazing achievement.

[Michael Morlan]

It's always the little things that count. I hope RED features a squinto-meter-slider accessible through the little control nipple on the back.

:)

There shouldn't be any need to squint with the RED One. Just turn on the false-color exposure image and look for extremes of the "rainbow" display.