Live Video With Red One

[Stronz Vanderploeg]

Sorry if this thread is somewhere else but I couldn't seem to find it. Basically we are looking at different camera options for live video and I need to know what the best setup is if we went the RED route.

From my understanding we would run HD-SDI from the cams to an HD-SDI compatible board but not too sure on what board that would be or if there are any compatibility issues.

Any information is appreciated as Google has yielded very little information. Most of you guys on here use the RED for films but I know it can be used for live video, just not sure exactly how.

Again, sorry if this a repeat of another thread. If it is, just point me in the right direction.

[Joseph Ward]

Steve Gibby would better explain this, but I remember only 720P through HD-SDI can do this?

[Stronz Vanderploeg]

Hmm okay, yeah I'm not looking for 4k live (that would be nuts) or 2k but I thought it would do 1080p live out. I don't actually own a RED yet so that's why I'm pretty green when it comes to this stuff. All my info I've had to digest via forums and reading instead of actual hands on experience.

[Casey Schendel]

I'm assuming you're wanting to essentially create a live television setup with multiple red's and switch between them from a master switching board?

The only problem you'll run into (as the guy above me stated) is that you're limited to 720p output on live footage. If that's all the resolution you need it would work fine (a little over kill I think).

Also consider focus if your camera's will be moving at all, it's much more precise then ENG lenses ~ which you may want a pl-b4 adapter and use ENG lenses on the red's.

[Stronz Vanderploeg]

Ah so 720p is the max, alright good to know. This isn't a rush thing so we are looking at possibly Scarlets but I just wanted to know how the RED worked live just to get an idea.

And as far as the use, it's for live video for our new church building. We've been using XL-1s for the past 10 years and it's definitely time to upgrade haha. We're looking at Panasonic HPX500's as well but for the price we could very go with REDs instead. We'd also be using these cameras for video production so that's why I feel like RED would be the better option if it can do everything the HPX500 can do in terms of live coverage.

720p isn't a deal breaker but 1080p would be nice.

Also, any suggestions on switching boards that work well with REDs?

[Noah Kadner]

Yeah gotta say live is not this camera's strength. If that's what you want you'd be better off looking into something more like a Sony EX3 or your more typical studio camera.

Noah

[NateWeaver]

You would be MUCH better served by any sort of ENG style camera from Sony or Panasonic. They're built for that sort of use.

The Red is NOT built to have the best image out live, nor are the constraints placed by 35mm optics economical for live use. Running the camera in 2K mode with B4 lenses would be handily beat by the low-light capabilities of any 2/3" ENG camera.

[Steve Gibby]

Stronz,

The style of production you describe is hardlined EFP (Electronic Field Production). You can find a wealth of info to answer your questions by visiting my Sticky post at the top of the EFP/ENG and RED forum here on RED User:

Link: http://205.234.135.241/forum/showthread.php?t=1091

Though RED One is primarily a digital cinema camera, it was designed from the very start to also be accessorized and lensed for use as an EFP camera - but most easily as a non-hardlined EFP camera. EFP-friendly features in RED One include: 12v auxiliary power for powering EFP/ENG lens servo-zoom motors, genlock, dual HD-SDI, zebras, RS232, 4 channels of audio, 2k resolution capability, and B4 to PL adaptor to enable use of 2/3" HD EFP/ENG zooms. Again, all these features are EFP/ENG camera style features specifically included by RED to help enable EFP-style production with RED One.

I shot the very first B4 2/3" lens footage with RED One clear back in September 2007, using my RED B4 adaptor and several different B4 2/3" lenses. Here's a link to a current thread on the EFP/ENG and RED forum, on which I have posted some photos of some of my RED B4 2/3" EFP-style setups - look at my posts #5 and #10 on the thread:
http://205.234.135.241/forum/showthread.php?t=35343

With a B4 2/3" zoom on RED One, powered by a hirose to 12v cable to enable power to the lens servozoom, RED One has the form factor and most of the functionality of a dedicated 2/3" EFP/ENG camera system.

There are some drawbacks to shooting 2k with RED using 2/3" HD EFP/ENG zooms. The RED B4 adaptor has good glass and spreads the image the necessary 6% for the 2/3" lenses to cover 2k. Though the glass is good, the result is a slightly softer image than if there wasn't an adaptor used. RAW debayers out by a factor of around .78 (according to RED's Graeme Nattress) thus the debayered resolution is around 1.56k - somewhat less than 1080p. For some 1080 finishes RED 2k from 2/3" lenses the result is fine, but in my opinion RED 2k with 2/3" lenses is best for a 720, PAL, or NTSC finish.

As others here have noted, the highest live output of RED One is 720p. Does it look good? Yes. On a recent 10-RED camera production of the band Journey in concert in Manila, for which I was a DP, we simultaneously ran live switched 720p from each camera to the control room to be switched, then out to a giant IMAG screen above the stage, while simultaneously recording Quad HD (4kHD) to onboard hard drives on each camera, to be used to edit the HDTV program and DVD of the concert. The live switched IMAG big screen looked excellent.

Here's a link to a recent TV Technology magazine article I wrote about that Journey Manila production:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/83626

So in summary:
Is RED One designed to be used in hardlined EFP productions like you're asking about? Yes, but there are some limitations as I've noted.
Is the 720p live output good enough to be used for live event big screens? Yes, read my TV Technology magazine article
Is RED One the very best way to approach the type of hardlined production you're doing? No, not the very best, but can be more than adequate for the job if you set the cameras up right and use shooters who know the RED camera well and have EFP-style shooting experience.
Will Epic and Scarlet be much more EFP capable, including hardlined EFP? In my opinion, absolutely they will. You may want to buy some Scarlets, which I'm guessing will have 1080p live output and also have the ability to shoot in either RAW or RGB. We'll know when the Scarlet specifications are finalized.


Non-hardlined EFP production with RED One is a whole different story than hardlined. Non-hardlined EFP and hybrid style are done widely with RED One in a wide variety of non-narrative production genres. Most of those crews use hybrid setups of RED, using 35mm stills lenses without matte boxes and follow focus units, lightweight rigs, eye focus the camera, expose via zebras and histogram, and use a combination of EFP and cine camera usage styles. You can find current threads on hybrid style production with RED at these links:

http://205.234.135.241/forum/showthread.php?t=28552&page=24
(See my posts # 231, 235, 237, and 241)

http://205.234.135.241/forum/showthread.php?t=35643
(Entire thread, and my post is #16)


I hope this info helps you. Again, visit my EFP/ENG and RED sticky and you'll find the answers to your EFP questions.

[Stronz Vanderploeg]

Wow, thanks Steve, that was so clear and complete. Sorry, if it was somewhere else and you had to repeat yourself, I really appreciate it. I'll take a look at all those links you posted and see what will best fit our needs.

Hopefully we'll be able to purchase Scarlets when the time comes because I think that will be our best bet but you never know with RED when these things will come to fruition.

I might find it somewhere else but any input as to what switcher to use with the RED One? Any HD-SDI compatible board?

[Steve Gibby]

I'm glad the info helped you Stronz :)

RED recently said that sometime in October they intend to announce the delivery schedule for Epic and Scarlet. When they do, you'll know if that schedule will work with your plans. You'll also want to pay attention to the finalized tech specs for Scarlet, but as I previously posted, I expect Scarlet to be even much more EFP friendly that RED One is.

Right off hand I can't recall what brand switcher we had in the control room for the Journey Manila concert production. I would guess that any switcher with an HD-SDI board would work.

[Stronz Vanderploeg]

I know you probably get this a lot but Steve, you are the man. Always excellent answers. And yes, I can't wait til that magical day in October when we will all get more info about release dates and such.

Any suggestions on 2/3" ENG/EFP zoom lenses that are a little cheaper? I checked out the pricing on a couple of your Fujinon lenses and 30k is quite a bit more than I'd like to spend. I know good glass is expensive but I just don't think that price range for a lens will fit into the budget.

[Steve Gibby]

I don't know about being the man Stronz, but thank you for the kind words...happy to help :)

Frankly if I were in your shoes, and producing the multi-camera church productions you described, I'd be taking a long look at getting several of the fixed lens Scarlets. The announced 8x zoom lens (if it stays in the specifications) should have more than enough focal range and length for your shooting venue. If RED also follows through on making a 2x extender and a wide converter for the fixed zoom (not confirmed yet), then you would also have a lot of versatility in the cameras. If the cameras have the ability to switch from RAW to RGB (not confirmed yet), then you'd have some great options there. I'd normally shoot the programs at your church in RGB, saving RAW for special b-roll montage shooting.

B4 HD zooms are way expensive. I wouldn't go that route if I were you. As mentioned, I'd look heavily into going with several carefully accessorized fixed lens Scarlets.

Food for thought...

[Stronz Vanderploeg]

Alright good to know. That's what I've been thinking but just wanted to make sure. Thanks for all the help.

[Steve Gibby]

Happy to help Stronz...you're asking the right questions, so I think you'll do great with your setup at that venue. I'd wait until the specifications on Epic and Scarlet are finalized, analyze them closely, them make a move on the model and accessories which will best fit your needs. Again, my instincts are telling me the fiixed lens Scarlet may just be the ticket for what you need. We'll see...

[Sanjin Jukic]

RED1 LIVE CAMERA>>Picture Perfect>>A real test>>>

RED! 720p HDSDI preview out with AJA Hi5-G3 HDMI converter and HP DreamColor HD 24" 1920x1080 monitor (the picture is upscaled from 720p to 1080p and it looks perfect).

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Magma_06.jpg
RED1 + Leica-R 60mm f/2.8 Macro + AJA Hi5-G3 HDMI converter + RED-Raid 320GB + RED Rocket™™™™™™ + Magma ExpressPro + HP DreamColor + MacBook Pro 17"