what if i order now

[killfilm]

Hello, just wondering if i order now, then how long until i receive my camera?

thanks

[Poi Boy]

My guess would be March.
Aloha
-A

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

You may find cameras on Ebay before that.

Stephen

[laguun]

Hi,

You may find cameras on Ebay before that.

Stephen

possible.

however, the question is - will the cameras be more expensive?

We would pay $$$$ per camera to get an earlier delivery than the 3 slots we have now.

furthermore - if red delivers this month and IBC will be only half as successful as NAB, the waiting line might become several months longer.

once the university/academic/corporate sector starts to order and once red materialises as product in the common shooters reality, there might be a somewhat impressive boost in orders.

i don´t know: is the deposit still refundable for orers placed now? if so, then i wouldn´t wait to order. You can always get the deposit back -if- a red shows up on ebay for a -lower- price -before- the first ~2000 units are delivered.

[Nils Ruinet]

i don´t know: is the deposit still refundable for orers placed now? if so, then i wouldn´t wait to order. You can always get the deposit back -if- a red shows up on ebay for a -lower- price -before- the first ~2000 units are delivered.

Your 10% deposit is still 100% refundable, even if you order now.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3551&highlight=deposit

[Stephen Williams]

possible.

however, the question is - will the cameras be more expensive?



Hi,

At the beginning prices may well be higher, if the price is very much higher, more will come onto the market and the price will fall. Once cameras are available for immediate delivery they will sell for a discount, it's just a matter of supply & demand.

Stephen

[PaulClements]

Countries outside the US might have it a little better for selling their RedOne second hand also. For instance, someone buying into the UK direct from Red would have to deal with duty tax and VAT, whereas someone who's already done so can sell a second hand unit without charging VAT on it (So it appears cheaper). Also fluctuations in the value of dollar might mean it becomes more expensive to buy a RedOne. Basically it's just the ease of buying locally and having it within 24 hours and avoiding the hassles of tax/shipping/vat. In the US I don't see that there'll be much point buying second hand unless you are saving significant amounts, at least a couple thousand dollars.

[Stephen Williams]

Countries outside the US might have it a little better for selling their RedOne second hand also. For instance, someone buying into the UK direct from Red would have to deal with duty tax and VAT, whereas someone who's already done so can sell a second hand unit without charging VAT on it (So it appears cheaper). Also fluctuations in the value of dollar might mean it becomes more expensive to buy a RedOne. Basically it's just the ease of buying locally and having it within 24 hours and avoiding the hassles of tax/shipping/vat. In the US I don't see that there'll be much point buying second hand unless you are saving significant amounts, at least a couple thousand dollars.

Hi Paul,

I would have thought the majority of buyers of Red one would be VAT registered, so a non VAT registered seller would be at a disadvantage as they have paid the VAT when importing without being able to claim it back.

Stephen

[Yannick Hagman]

It's actually a smart marketing trick to run short of REDs. Like Apple did it with their iPhones.

[Stephen Williams]

It's actually a smart marketing trick to run short of REDs. Like Apple did it with their iPhones.

Hi,

As long as demand remains high. Nobody knows what will be released at IBC by other companies & at what price.

Stephen

[Yannick Hagman]

Did you order a RED? :)

[killfilm]

no, i ordered a blue, doctor said that red might mess with my head:ninja:

[simon weekes]

Hi, Im about to order my camera package, but i just need to know a bit about the digital media storage, so please help.
why is the ram store so much more expensive than the 320GB drive?do I need the RAM to run higher frame rates, higher resolution? or could I get a hard drive off the high street to capture to?
2nd question:b4-PL mount adaptor? really? I have heard tell thats not a good idea, and impossible! where can I find some more info about this?
3rd:whats the probable battery life like?obviously this will fluctuate depending on use conditions, but ball park?would two batteries last me a day of shooting , for example shooting teh same amount as 4 40 min digi tapes?
thanks
simon
skintfilms

oopps, i just realised this is posted in a thread not likely to geta response , sorry, i shall try post it elsewhere.

[Martin Drew]

Countries outside the US might have it a little better for selling their RedOne second hand also. For instance, someone buying into the UK direct from Red would have to deal with duty tax and VAT, whereas someone who's already done so can sell a second hand unit without charging VAT on it (So it appears cheaper). Also fluctuations in the value of dollar might mean it becomes more expensive to buy a RedOne. Basically it's just the ease of buying locally and having it within 24 hours and avoiding the hassles of tax/shipping/vat. In the US I don't see that there'll be much point buying second hand unless you are saving significant amounts, at least a couple thousand dollars.

Hi Paul

If you are VAT registered you will still have to charge VAT when you sell.

M

[Stephen Williams]

Did you order a RED? :)

Hi,

No I always buy equipment on Ebay!

Stephen

[Daniel Reichenbach]

There is no business like showbusiness... stephen is a real english gentlemen, he would never ever buy new equipment, he learned to stay way back in the line and give all the others the possibility to spent there money before him :tongue:

[Stephen Williams]

There is no business like showbusiness... stephen is a real english gentlemen, he would never ever buy new equipment, he learned to stay way back in the line and give all the others the possibility to spent there money before him :tongue:

Hi Daniel,

I think there will be plenty of Swiss Red one cameras, I hope there is enough work out there for the cameras already ordered. I guess Tony will be buying some now!:innocent:

Stephen

[laguun]

Hi,

At the beginning prices may well be higher, if the price is very much higher, more will come onto the market and the price will fall. Once cameras are available for immediate delivery they will sell for a discount, it's just a matter of supply & demand.

Stephen

correct.
it seems that this year, the demand for s35mm, 4k, overcranking, arri/b4/canon/nikon mount using digital cameras with raw and hd-sdi workflows in the ~17.500$-100.000 pricerange will be a slight little bit higher than the supply.

[laguun]

There is no business like showbusiness... stephen is a real english gentlemen, he would never ever buy new equipment, he learned to stay way back in the line and give all the others the possibility to spent there money before him :tongue:

absolutly - its great that so many people want to start later!
I however always loved the pioneer days with their challenges and benefits.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Hi Daniel,

I think there will be plenty of Swiss Red one cameras, I hope there is enough work out there for the cameras already ordered. I guess Tony will be buying some now!:innocent:

Stephen

At least, Toni deleted his pamphlet against RED :clown2: (sorry guys, it's an insider choke)

[Yannick Hagman]

I think there will be plenty of Swiss Red one cameras, I hope there is enough work out there for the cameras already ordered.

I know of a German guy who will rent his RED for 400 Euro a day. With everything included. I wonder how low the fees will go.

It's probably smart to stay back until we know with what the competitors come up. Most won't need 4k anyway, if it just goes TV what's the sense anyway. 99% here still watch SD.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Most won't need 4k anyway, if it just goes TV what's the sense anyway. 99% here still watch SD.

This statement can only be placed by somebody who don't know how a 4K image will look in PAL. Nobody will use 4K in the next month to air them arround the globe for TV, but you will use it to create stunning pictures for HD and SD. By the way: 400 euro (550$) is a reasonable price for a basic equipment. Remember: RED basic will be arround 25'000$, daily rate 2%=500$ first day

[Yannick Hagman]

This statement can only be placed by somebody who don't know how a 4K image will look in PAL. Nobody will use 4K in the next month to air them arround the globe for TV, but you will use it to create stunning pictures for HD and SD.

So you think rescaling it down will make it look better than shooting it in the correct definition?

[Daniel Reichenbach]

So you think rescaling it down will make it look better than shooting it in the correct definition?

Absolutely, that's one of the reason why most of the commercials are shot on 35mm. Downsampling gives a rich and beautifull look which you will never get with a edges-sharpened HD or SD camera.

[laguun]

I know of a German guy who will rent his RED for 400 Euro a day. With everything included. I wonder how low the fees will go.

rental comes down to typical 0.75%-2% list price / day.



It's probably smart to stay back until we know with what the competitors come up.

That is wellknown, the competitors offers are:
Arri D20, 435, 535, Studio
Sony 750/790/900/950/F23
Thomson Viper
Panavison (only rental) Genesis, Millenium
SI and Dalsa Origin I/II.

It seems, that red is outselling all of the cameras above together at this moment in time.



Most won't need 4k anyway, if it just goes TV what's the sense anyway. 99% here still watch SD.


You typically shoot HDCAM, 35mm photochemical and DVCPRO HD for PAL, if you are on a higher budget. Because you will get better images. Resolution is -one- of -many- aspects which result in better images. Higher Framerates are -one- of -many- creative aspects not present in most ntsc/pal-cameras.

Besides, higher resolution than TV gives you plenty of headroom in postproduction.

[laguun]

Absolutely, that's one of the reason why most of the commercials are shot on 35mm. Downsampling gives a rich and beautifull look which you will never get with a edges-sharpened HD or SD camera.


correct, however any professional hd-camera i have used from sony and thomson gv had the option to shoot without any edge-sharpening - as default.

[Yannick Hagman]

Absolutely, that's one of the reason why most of the commercials are shot on 35mm. Downsampling gives a rich and beautifull look which you will never get with a edges-sharpened HD or SD camera.

That's true for film. But the red records also electronically. If you shot in a higher resolution and do downscale it, it's not any good for the image, at least that tells me every professionall still photographer out there. They always say: Shot in the correct resolution.

I believe most shot on film, because of the look, the depth of field and to stand out of the crowd these days. The last two things will change with the red. The colors won't be that beautiful though.

[Häakon]

That's true for film. But the red records also electronically. If you shot in a higher resolution and do downscale it, it's not any good for the image.

It depends on the size of the image, the percentage difference of the scale, and the method used to scale. I would much rather have a 10MP dSLR, for example, than a 1MP digital camera - even if my intended output is only 1MP. The 10MP oversampled image will look far superior in almost every scenario.

[Yannick Hagman]

It depends on the size of the image, the percentage difference of the scale, and the method used to scale. I would much rather have a 10MP dSLR, for example, than a 1MP digital camera - even if my intended output is only 1MP. The 10MP oversampled image will look far superior in almost every scenario.

We discused this lately in a Forum about SD / HD. A great SD cam like the XL1 makes much better SD images as a downscale of a comparable HD cam.

That could be, but only because the 1MP camera uses very poor components. But not with a cam which makes full use of it's resolution and is comparable. Look at it this way: You have a shot of tiles on your floor. Where do this lines go if you scale it down? The algorithm will bamboozle to make it fit into less pixels -> you will lose quality.

[Häakon]

We discused this lately in a Forum about SD / HD. A great SD cam like the XL1 makes much better SD images as a downscale of a comparable HD cam.
Part of the difference here is the difference between image sizes in the scale. A 4K to SD scale is an order of magnitude larger than, say, a 720 to SD scale. When the difference is small, the scale becomes less effective. But there are also benefits to scaling besides perceived resolution - most notably noise reduction (and as a result, increased sensitivity).

It's the same reason I'm not for a 2K to 1080 scale, but absolutely for a 4K to 1080 (or 4K to 2K, or 4K to SD - whatever your needs are). I think if you ask the people here who crunch the numbers and work with the images on the most technical levels, they will tell you that oversampling in this instance is a very good thing. I guarantee you that your RED images will look far superior to your XL1, especially when oversampled to SD from 4K.

[laguun]

That's true for film. But the red records also electronically.

film is processed electronically.
for print & press via scanner/raster/dtp/laserrecorder/printer.
for movie & tv via scanner/telecine/raster/DI/laserrecorder.
You cannot broadcast film via HF to a TV without going the lectronical road.





If you shot in a higher resolution and do downscale it, it's not any good for the image, at least that tells me every professionall still photographer out there. They always say: Shot in the correct resolution.

*sigh* that must be the same photographers who said digital would never replace film.

The statement is wrong.

The "correct" resolution of a photo doesn´t exist - that would be defined by size of the reprint, resolution of the laserrecorder, etc. A photo on the A4 title, on a quarterpage in an ad, on a bizcard or on a A0 poster always has a diferent target resolution - not -one- correct one. Furthermore, most photos originate in RGB space before print and then are converted into -rasterized- CYMK.

As basic rule, the higher the resolution the better.

One thing however is correct - incompetent people can introduce resizing (or, to be precise, interpolation) artefacts - that is probably why many photographers, whose horizon ends in basic photoshop, are afraid of resizing.

however, in professional mediaproduction, be it image or sound, you oversample whenever possible. audio today is recorde at 96khz/24bit, even when its distributed via cd 44khz/16bit or mp3. Also, 35mm film is often scanned for highclass production @4k, even when the target is only recorded at 2k or 1080p.



I believe most shot on film, because of the look, the depth of field and to stand out of the crowd these days. The last two things will change with the red. The colors won't be that beautiful though.

All three things change.
In almost any topclass filmproduction, you don´t use the colors of the original film - you change them in lab, vfx, di, editing etc - as they would be pretty boring often. Also - all people who have used red so far, including academy-award winning directors, have clearly stated that red shoots excellent, outstanding, jawdropping images - and guess what, they all worked on film before.

furthermore - the colors aren´t defined by the medium, but by the motive.

digital sensor instead of photochemical aqusition have already basicly put photochemical film out of business in the still images world - and moving images were one of the very remaining niches. And you probably don´t want to tell the huge mayority of professional photographers, who are digital meanwhile, that they dropped film even if it had "better colors".

[laguun]

I guarantee you that your RED images will look far superior to your XL1, especially when oversampled to SD from 4K.

i second that.

[Yannick Hagman]

I guarantee you that your RED images will look far superior to your XL1, especially when oversampled to SD from 4K.

I copy that. Again because of the lenses and medium used. DV is a compression.
But lets build a red for SD-definition and compare it with a 4k-downscale of the red which they are selling. The first one would look better. I haven't seen a algorithm calculating better than a real shot.

[Martin Drew]

Downscale should resolve better because there is a loss in resolution due to the Optical low pass filter and the Bayer pattern pixel arrangement. Shooting at the required delivery resolution will always be a compromise with a digital system because you will get aliasing without filtration but filtration reduces bandwidth. It is the same reason audio is sampled at a minimum of 44kHz in order to achieve a 20 Hz to 20 KHz bandwidth.

M

[Yannick Hagman]

film is processed electronically.
for print & press via scanner/raster/dtp/laserrecorder/printer.
for movie & tv via scanner/telecine/raster/DI/laserrecorder.
You cannot broadcast film via HF to a TV without going the lectronical road.


The "correct" resolution of a photo doesn´t exist - that would be defined by size of the reprint, resolution of the laserrecorder

Exactly. And every scaling above 130% becomes visible, especially with strange percentages.



As basic rule, the higher the resolution the better.

Its more practical, not better.


the colors aren´t defined by the medium, but by the motive.

Sorry, but that assumption isn't true and I wonder that not one DoP intervenes here.. I'm the last person with sentimental feelings about film, but the photochemical way trades colors quite differently. Even electronic mediums do. For instance Canon has a big weakness with handling red colors (what a metaphor) :-) However, that weakness has nothing in common with the motive nor lenses.



digital sensor instead of photochemical aqusition have already basicly put photochemical film out of business in the still images world - and moving images were one of the very remaining niches. And you probably don´t want to tell the huge mayority of professional photographers, who are digital meanwhile, that they dropped film even if it had "better colors".

Because of reliability, handling and costs. There is more than a handful of top-notch-photographers who are still shooting on film, because of certain aspects. Obviously that has a reason. I don't support this, just aknowledge it.

[Proteus]

That's true for film. But the red records also electronically. If you shot in a higher resolution and do downscale it, it's not any good for the image, at least that tells me every professionall still photographer out there. They always say: Shot in the correct resolution.

Just make this small experiment to judge for yourself:

1. Frame a static well lit scene with lots of fine detail at the center, using your favorite camera on tripod and do your best to capture it as sharp as possible and record a few seconds. Leave the camera at that position.

2. Take the footage your just recorded and crop a part from the center of the frame that will be 2.35 times smaller horizontally and vertically (eg if the native camera format is 1920x1080 take a crop of 817x 460). This ratio is the same as RED's 4k to Full HD. You may need to round a bit the dimensions if it is required from the software (eg to be multiples of 2, 8 or 16).

3. Now go back to the camera and zoom in to match exactly the frame you cropped on post. Do your best for maximum sharpness and record a few seconds.

4. Scale the second capture on post with a good scale algorithm (quality depends on the algorithm) to the same size as the crop (eg 817x460)

5. Join the cropped and the scaled clips so that you have a video of alternating playback of a few seconds of each clip.

NOTE: All processing in all steps should be done without recompressing (this won't be difficult for just a few seconds of each capture).

6. Playback and watch the (huge) differences!

[Vincent Rice]

muroshi its very simple. A 4K to 1080 downscale will give you a better result than a straight 1080.

[Vincent Rice]

It's actually a smart marketing trick to run short of REDs. Like Apple did it with their iPhones.

That was not done on purpose I assure you.

[Yannick Hagman]

That was not done on purpose I assure you.

How do you know? :) After all, Jim is a gifted marketing-guy.