Compulsory Whining, Pricing FUD, Sky is falling...

[Ian B. Johnson]

Everything is a part of "subject to change...".

Jim

$750 never did seem a realistic price for a LCD, CF module, and handle... at least we know now to save up a bit more.

EDIT: Can't forget the battery either.

[Felix K.]

Oh dear...

[Peter Osinski]

is it me or did "3k for $3k" just jump to "3k for $(who knows)k"

[Peter Osinski]

$750 never did seem a realistic price for a LCD, CF module, and handle... at least we know now to save up a bit more.

i think even more so, 500 never seemed a realistic price for that lens

[Ian B. Johnson]

i think even more so, 500 never seemed a realistic price for that lens

True. Autofocus, T2.8 through the zoom range (or was it 2.4?), and 3K resolving power would have been a STEAL for only $500 on top of the brain price.

[John Nouel]

Oh dear...

Indeed...

Oh Dear.

I think the person inside of me fainted.

[Michael Dalton]

I think it is clear that those who thinking scarlet 2/3 changeable or s35 will come under 7-10k complete have to factor in about 10-15k extra for i/o module, battery module +4 batteries, bomb or LCD and CF module? Plus the lenses? To bad there is not an Audio module that is small that has 2 or 4 XLRS instead of the whole I/O. HDSDI is nice, but not all of us need it.

The fixed seems like you'll end up spending 6-10k

I'd love to see a long reach telephoto from red.

Still very nice that we have the options! Thanks!

[Ryan Valle]

Everything is a part of "subject to change...".

Jim

I hope this doesnt translate to being something greatly more expensive for the fixed lens scarlet...

[Felix K.]

The fixed seems like you'll end up spending 6-10k



Where is the SoccerMum in that? Is it becoming a PoloMum?

[Ian B. Johnson]

Prices sit unchanged on Red's site... a glimmer of hope remains for 3k at $3k.

[Jay A. Kelley]

We got these kinds of posts back when we were waiting for RED also. Bottom line: A 2/3 chip for less than $8,000.00 is a MAJOR DEAL. Just look around.. Look at the Sony EX-3 which has a 1/2" CMOS sensor and see how much it is.

I know we all want everything for pennies on the dollar, and RED did post some pretty amazing prices, but it's always smart to work in a 20% buffer whenever possible. It keeps you from getting dissappointed.

Jim keeps his word.. And the Scarlet they spoke of long ago would still be what he quoted, but there's a good chance they ADDED to Scarlet and made it even better. If this is the case, then the price would go up accordingly.

Understand that if there are some of you that cannot get a Scarlet if it goes $4000 - $6800 that's understandable, but there are still a BUTTLOAD of people who will drink this cool-aid!

At $3,700 I know a lot of people who expected to buy a lot of these things as simple crash cameras!

We'll see what happens.. But relax.. The prices will be good, it will just be a matter of what you can afford.

Jay

[Ian B. Johnson]

We got these kinds of posts back when we were waiting for RED also.

Hate to say it... but these posts wouldn't be here if not for Red's original predictions. Once again, I wonder why they always lowball costs and timetables. Why not be conservative/realistic?

[Peter Mosiman]

At $3,700 I know a lot of people who expected to buy a lot of these things as simple crash cameras!
Jay

Ha. I have been saving for well over a year and a half. Just barely hit the +4K mark. The day I can afford that kind of cash as a "crash camera" will be an awesome day.

[Michael Dalton]

A 2/3 chip for less than $8,000.00 is a MAJOR DEAL.

Jay

Don't worry this is not lost on us!

[Harry Lipnick]

For all of you worrying about price, don't panic too much. Do remember that all Jim said was a short sentence that really we already knew "everything's subject to change." We have no real reason to believe that there won't still be something available right around the original price point published, so until Jim re-releases schedules and things later this month, I think we've kinda gotta go with the flow here.
Peace,

-Harry

[Felix K.]

I know what you mean, Jay. And I do trust Jim and his team that they make whatever is possible; if a 2/3 sensor RAW camera shooting out of the box is not possible for 4000$ then it is not possible right now. It would just be hard having dreamt about it for a while as you say to maybe having to let it go.

There is still hope as I kind of remember an interview with Ted where he spoke about 4000$. We'll have to see if he meant the brain or more...

[Mauricio De la Orta]

if a 2/3 sensor RAW camera shooting out of the box is not possible for 4000$ then it is not possible right now. It would just be hard having dreamt about it for a while as you say to maybe having to let it go.

There is still hope as I kind of remember an interview with Ted where he spoke about 4000$. We'll have to see if he meant the brain or more...

2/3 sensors by themselves are not out of reach anymore (even FF products are getting cheaper by the day). Just look at the high def DSLR's like the 5DmkII, 7d and even the GH1 cameras. Also note that traditional videocameras (even 1/3" ones) are way overpriced these days.

Think about it. Why on earth would you throw away $4k+ for a JVC/SONY/PANASONIC/CANON videocamera when you can get a DSLR that gets you better results for half the price? All of the prosumer videocameras record video in a compressed format of sorts (even h.264) anyway.

What's so nice about scarlet is that it does what DSLR's (interchangeable lenses, good sensor, manual settings, etc) BUT instead of encoding in h.264 it records directly to raw files. A VERY weak point IMO is that it still has a 2/3" sensor when we are seeing the industry moving to better ones.

IMO the strategy for RED scarlet has had to change a lot in these past months, because not only is it competing against traditional prosumer videocameras, but ever since the 5DmkII came out, it is also competing against HD video capable DSLRs which in a way also do most of what Red DSMC's do.

Strong points of new DSLR's vs. prosumer cameras (as of today):

a) Price
b) Interchangeable lenses
c) Some h.264 codecs (Canon 7D) are actually getting better than HDV.
d) SENSOR sizes, which give us s35+ like DOF
e) Availability
f) Can also be used as a professional still camera.
g) They all do 1080p, some do 24p with over/undercrank
h) Variety and availability of HIGH quality lenses.
i) Third party support (NLE's, etc)

Strong points of prosumer video cameras vs new HD DSLRs

a) Form factor
b) Some of them have advanced (pricier) I/O interfaces.
c) Some have pro Audio
d) is there anything else? And I'm not even listing their weak points.


So Scarlets should at least do all of the above, and then more. Markets are pushing technology fastly these days, so I'm sure these strong points will feel obsolete in some months. Let's see what Nikkon comes up with next to compete against Canon and Panasonic.

[Stephen Gentle]

2/3 sensors by themselves are not out of reach anymore (even FF products are getting cheaper by the day). Just look at the high def DSLR's like the 5DmkII, 7d and even the GH1 cameras. Also note that traditional videocameras (even 1/3" ones) are way overpriced these days.

What's so nice about scarlet is that it does what DSLR's (interchangeable lenses, good sensor, manual settings, etc) BUT instead of encoding in h.264 it records directly to raw files. A VERY weak point IMO is that it still has a 2/3" sensor when we see the industry moving to bigger ones.

But there's a massive difference in a sensor that records all the sensor data (à la RED) and one that has to line skip to be able to read fast enough. The fact that the 2/3" Scarlet can record the full pixel array at speeds the Canon can only dream of (even when the Canon uses hacks like line skipping) puts it way ahead of the VDSLRs, and the RAW even more so. And it's not like a 2/3" sensor isn't suitable for cinema - many films have been shot on them.

And as for people who say the s35 and FF35 models not being competitive - well, get back to me when another brand can shoot 5 MP and 21MP at 30 frames per second (respectively) with a 72 fps burst!


Right...no studs because it will bolt, but I think this thing has to have electronics. I'm guessing bolts plus the two contact points (data and power.) Otherwise everything downstream of the adapter plate wouldn't have any way to talk to the brain, right?
Peace,

-Harry

It does seem to have the connections so I think that it just provides the mechanical interface as well as having the connections to pass the data and power through. But I doubt it will have any other electronics apart from the connectors.

[Michael Dalton]

Think about it. Why on earth would you throw away $4k+ for a JVC/SONY/PANASONIC/CANON videocamera when you can get a DSLR that gets you better results for half the price? All of the prosumer videocameras record video in a compressed format of sorts (even h.264) anyway.
.

you should look at your images again. DSLR Maybe better then Canon, but then again HDV is not aspiring very high.

I think you are missing the point of red. We are not looking for something like a mark II or 7D(Which IMHO does crappy HD, and would take 720p dvchdpro or XD cam over it). We are looking for something else that does something very specific thing, and that is something that produce images of the best quality, that is most flexible in post (raw images) with few compromises at a film level not video. You can compete for last place.

I don't think RED has anything to worry from Video cameras, the major manufactures have no interest in trying to achieve what Jim is doing. The DSLR maybe a greater threat in terms of lens quality, but they still don't get it. The fact that they chose a crappy codec like h.264 for HD is evident, they utilize what is there to keep cost down. Best mass appeal. Look at the mess that is HD for proof. 720p,1080p, 1080 25i, 1080 30i............... and on and on. Long GOP? Worst case in point. Today we should have 2 flavors of HD, 1080p and 720p and a few levels of quality for codecs. Frame rates should be for effects.

The fact that there is a fixed scarlet that does 3k for may 4k is just beyond expectations . 90% are probably still dumbfounded. What it will do is push all camera development ahead 10 years (probably where it should have been now had the big guys cared)

[Mauricio De la Orta]

you should look at your images again. DSLR Maybe better then Canon, but then again HDV is not aspiring very high.

I think you are missing the point of red. We are not looking for something like a mark II or 7D(Which IMHO does crappy HD, and would take 720p dvchdpro or XD cam over it). We are looking for something else that does something very specific thing, and that is something that produce images of the best quality, that is most flexible in post (raw images) with few compromises at a film level not video. You can compete for last place.

I don't think RED has anything to worry from Video cameras, the major manufactures have no interest in trying to achieve what Jim is doing. The DSLR maybe a greater threat in terms of lens quality, but they still don't get it. The fact that they chose a crappy codec like h.264 for HD is evident, they utilize what is there to keep cost down. Best mass appeal. Look at the mess that is HD for proof. 720p,1080p, 1080 25i, 1080 30i............... and on and on. Long GOP? Worst case in point. Today we should have 2 flavors of HD, 1080p and 720p and a few levels of quality for codecs. Frame rates should be for effects.

The fact that there is a fixed scarlet that does 3k for may 4k is just beyond expectations . 90% are probably still dumbfounded. What it will do is push all camera development ahead 10 years (probably where it should have been now had the big guys cared)

Michael, I agree with you almost completely. H.264 is lousy when compared with raw as I pointed out in my previous post, and regarding resolution, I think it's overrated (just think about all the people out there that believe that a digital camera is better because it has more megapixels). On the other hand I firmly believe that with the current capabilites of DSLR's, things will start moving more fastly in the videocamera/dslr arena because of the competition.

When Scarlet was first announced, it's specs were WAY ahead of anything that was being offered in the market at that time, but things are moving faster these days.

Remember how much did it take to jump from SD to 720p HDV? Years. Then the jump from 720p to 1080i cameras took less than a year, and then to 1080p only months. 6 months ago you wouldn't have imagined that you could get a 1080 24p camera (even with it's limitation) with a s35 size sensor and interchangeable (fast) lens capability for just $1600 usd.

What I'm saying is that competition is getting closer to known scarlet specs faster than we thought, which makes me wonder how much time will it take one of the big brands to develop something similar to what we currently know as Scarlet? (they really need to improve their prosumer cameras in order to get people buying them again)

My guess is that Jim hasn't announced the new specs/prices/release dates for the cameras because he is giving us a big (good) surprise with the new specs that will move us forward into the future, and once more, farther away from what the other brands can offer in the short term.

... but then again, it's only my guess, and my dream :thumbup:

-M

[Gabe S.]

Let's try to keep the faith...

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27776

[Lawrence Bansbach]

is it me or did "3k for $3k" just jump to "3k for $(who knows)k"
Just to make you feel better, the original 3k-for-$3k camera's specs included a 4.8-inch LCD (not the smaller one) and dual CF slots (not the single slot on the side).

[Eki Halkka]

Think about it. Why on earth would you throw away $4k+ for a JVC/SONY/PANASONIC/CANON videocamera when you can get a DSLR that gets you better results for half the price?

Because it's a tool made for actual video work, not for artsy test films?

;-)


a) Form factor
b) Some of them have advanced (pricier) I/O interfaces.
c) Some have pro Audio
d) is there anything else? And I'm not even listing their weak points.


- Less rolling shutter artifacts (or none whatsoever, with CCD cameras)
- No moiré / stairstepping / small detail with shimmering rainbow artifacts
- Standard frame rates and modes, (yes, including interlaced video, that's what most TV work is done with)
- Built in fast 10-20X zoom with decent stabilization can be a very good thing (even autofocus can be useful)
- Small sensor makes focusing easier, not everything needs ultra shallow DOF
- Better codecs (yep, including XDCAM HD, EX and HDV), and better color sampling (with DVCPro HD cameras)
- And as said, they're built with video work in mind

..."better results" is, well, arguable...

[Mauricio De la Orta]

I think that's not accurate. At least in broadcast, cameras in 720p format came out AFTER cameras in 1080i.

But as 1080i sales remained in the tank, it was time to try something else. Once proven there was an HD market 1080i got a second chance, but when it failed again, manufacturers thought that 1080p might do the trick. Since then we have had pixel-shifting, up-conversion, 1440 horizontal sampling, 1-chip 1920 x 1080 CMOS sensors, and now line-skip DSLR downconversion pretending to be 1080p.


So slow progress. Now you may say I'm biased; but you can judge the quality difference for yourself when Scarlet is here.

Not sure about broadcast, as it's not my field, but I'm talking about my experience on products targeted to prosumers. If my memory doesn't fail me the first prosumer HD camera was the JVC HD10u back in 2003 and it did only 720p.

Now regarding Scarlet, I am completely sure its quality will amaze us since that's sort of Red's policy ;).

All I'm trying to say is that capitalism brings competition and I'm sure other companies are already working on upgrading their videocameras because they know there's a Scarlet comming which will finish what DSLR's started: Rendering their current prosumer line obsolete... And they've had at least one year to do that work since the original Scarlet announcement.

So just imagine for a second one of their idea stealing marketing execs in a meeting room:

------------------------
INT. CSPJ (Canon/Sony/Panasonic/JVC) meeting room - DAY

EVIL MARKETING EXEC
Ladies and gentlemen we have our new kickass camera
ready. The moment red announces the availabilty of Scarlet
we'll also start selling ours.

CEO
Well done Walter. We have nailed them this time.

INT. CSPJ offices - TWO DAYS LATER

CSPJ CEO and Marketing Exec are watching the news on a huge 90"CSPJ LED TV, as Red announces they have started selling Scarlet and talking about it's new awesome specs and price.

CEO
What the heck!

CEO looks furiosly at evil marketing exec

CEO
Why in the world is our new camera so lousy in comparison to the Scarlet?

EVIL MARKETING EXEC
Ahem... Well, we developed our camera from the specs we
read on Red's website last year...

CEO
What?! You should have done a deeper research. Now nobody is going
to buy our camera.

EVIL MARKETING EXEC
But our camera has a 2/3" sensor, an F4-8 10x fixed lens, and does 2k for
only $4000 us i think it is a very good deal.

CEO's face has turned RED. We can spot some veins about to pop out of his forehead.

CEO
You are out of your mind?? You know what... You're fired!

EXT. CSPJ Building - Moments later
The evil marketing exec comes out of a door carrying a box with books and papers in it. He looks right and sees a Billboard. He discovers it is announcing the new FF Scarlet fixed lens for only 3,500 usd.

A red spot shines in his eye. The camera moves away to reveal his angry expression.

EVIL MARKETING EXEC
I'll get you next time Jim.

Evil marketing exec walks by himself on a lonely street. We see the sun setting.

FADE OUT.
THE END

[Michael Hastings]

[QUOTE=Mauricio De la Orta;487913
EXT. CSPJ Building - Moments later
The evil marketing exec comes out of a door carrying a box with books and papers in it. He looks right and sees a Billboard. He discovers it is announcing the new FF Scarlet fixed lens for only 3,500 usd.

A red spot shines in his eye. The camera moves away to reveal his angry expression.

EVIL MARKETING EXEC
I'll get you next time Jim.

Evil marketing exec walks by himself on a lonely street. We see the sun setting.

FADE OUT.
THE END[/QUOTE]

This is a dream sequence right?

I can see RED possibly shifting to an S35 scarlet at a lowball price using Mysterium-X chips that were rejected for bad pixels (masked of course), but doubt if Full frame sensor.

[DCC Erickson]

...

EXT. CSPJ Building - Moments later
The evil marketing exec comes out of a door carrying a box with books and papers in it. He looks right and sees a Billboard. He discovers it is announcing the new FF Scarlet fixed lens for only 3,500 usd.

A RED spot shines in his eye. The camera moves away to reveal his angry expression.

CUT TO:

Evil Executive stands on the lip in front of the billboard, pounding on it, futility attempting to tear the billboard image.


EVIL EXECUTIVE
I hate you! I hate you! I hate you!

He pauses, caresses the big RED logo.

Breaks into tears.


EVIL EXECUTIVE
(sobbing)
Who am I kidding? I LOVE YOU! I love your modular design, your cutting edge technology, the responsiveness of your creator to user feedback, I love everything about you!


He snuggles up to the RED lens.


EVIL EXECUTIVE
I must possess you. I must hold you in my arms. When, when, when can we be together - never to part???

FADE OUT.
THE END

[HyderBilgrami]

Amazing !!!

[Jerrod Cordell]

Many worry about everything... it is human nature. We feel like we have a pretty good track record so far (except for meeting schedules). Relax until we give you a real reason to worry. Some things will go up, some will go down. Since "everything has changed" since last November it is time to wipe that from your mind and prepare for the final pricing.

Jim

Heh, that's the thing. I usually don't worry about what you guys do. It just kinda freaked me out a little when the prices weren't up. Can't wait to see what you guys have in store.

[Jerrod Cordell]

In short, whatever happens, the DSMCs will be worth every penny. :)

Well I had no down that they'd be worth every penny. Its just the question on if I'll have enough pennies.:undecided:

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Sadly if the price of the Fixed Scarlet raises too much, many of the potential buyers will jump to VDSLRs and diss RED.

Sad thing indeed.

[Ian B. Johnson]

"...prepare for the final pricing."

This does not sound good.

[Emiliano Ranzani]

Sadly if the price of the Fixed Scarlet raises too much, many of the potential buyers will jump to VDSLRs and diss RED.

Sad thing indeed.

Especially considering that those things ain't worth a real camera either.

[Christian Edwards]

"...prepare for the final pricing."

This does not sound good.
Yes it does : )

Maybe they'll bring back the premium production pack

[Jon Howe]

Sadly if the price of the Fixed Scarlet raises too much, many of the potential buyers will jump to VDSLRs and diss RED.


From what I've been following over the last two years - Jim and crew have learned a lot while starting a little revolution in the film industry (not an easy thing to do - I'm assuming). They've learned a lot from the RED ONE launch - and I think I remember them saying that Scarlett will be produced en masse.
So logic would figure that cameras & accessories produced en masse = cheaper (in general, not necessarily from the original quoted prices and especially considering how 'limited' the run was on R1) And as far as the modules go - the entire line of new cams will be using the same modules - so I hope the science of scale will be on our side. So have a little faith - They've come this far in two years - they're not going to screw us now.

Jim & Co. = Geniuses.

[Michael Dalton]

Sadly if the price of the Fixed Scarlet raises too much, many of the potential buyers will jump to VDSLRs and diss RED.

Sad thing indeed.

I have a bunch of old cameras kicking around as technology changes, all pretty much worth more at the time then the price of scarlet fixed is rumored . I'm excited by the that fact scarlet is priced what it was and if it fluctuates 20% no worries. It does 3k, and I shoot for TV it exceeds my needs for 1080 for the next 10-20 years. DSLR are obsolete every 6 months these days and will be that way for 4-5 years. The reason being, unit demand is not driven by the cinema market in DSLR. They'll never wake up unless jim puts a few out of business. 6 months or a year later, just try holding off when that new model comes out that is slightly better, but far from red. You'll look at this forum, and be jealous. You'll have to keep buying new cameras paying way more then a scarlet ever cost. And your junk will be relatively worthless.

With red I'm sure it will have a shelf life of 10+ years and still be worth 50-70% of it's value, well over My two HVX P2 camera (+8 batteries and 6x16gb cards which was a 20-25k investment) (coming up on 3 year old) How about my old Xl1s with EF adapter and many items which acts as a paper weights, another 15k for it all. Managed to sell my Canon Gl2 for 1/6 the price I paid.

I remember back to my first camera. An arri BL bought at a estate garage sale for under 200$ with a nice set of prime lenses. It was a decade or two old when I bought it, and I bet someone still uses it today 15 years on, or up to recently. Scarlet makes me think of that. Red one's will be around for the next ten years minimum. Scarlet/Epic will be longer. Your DSL will break soon and be too expensive to fix, so you'll just buy a new one because it is cheaper to do so. It still won't be nearly as nice as a red and you'll will still be looking at these boards dreaming of the films in your head. That DSLR will never feel right no matter how much you bulk it up.

Spend the money, it will be worth it! It will always have value like my BL.

My Old BL lasted me a day, I sold it the following day to my teacher who paid me $4000 (I was short money on my tuition and was going to be kicked out) I never got into features or became the DOP I thought I would, However I have shot and produced films that are shown on National Geographic. A good compromise I think!

Jim were 100% behind you pricing these camera what they are worth, I want RED making money so you can keep producing fine cameras. Of course the cheaper they are, the more we'll buy!

MD

[Lawrence Bansbach]

So logic would figure that cameras & accessories produced en masse = cheaper (in general, not necessarily from the original quoted prices and especially considering how 'limited' the run was on R1) but have a little faith - They've come this far in two years - they're not going to screw us now.
I guess there are various thresholds for being screwed. All I know is that the only price increase relative to Scarlet is for the fixed 2/3-inch, whose price has increased 25% ($750) since its original design (for the basic kit). But the basic kit reportedly has only one CF slot (vs. the original's two slots), probably the smaller LCD (vs. the original's 4.8-inch), and no HD-SDI port (HD-SDI was specced for the original Scarlet). If this is true, it might bring the the fixed's cost to $5,000 to $6,000 to match the original Scarlet's functionality. I consider a 66% to 100% price increase screwing us, at least relative to the hyped price of the original design. But that's just me. And the original was specced to support Redcode up to 100 MBps rather than only 42 MBps. I'm expecting a further price increase for the fixed Scarlet, which would be questionable in this economy.

[Ian B. Johnson]

I guess there are various thresholds for being screwed. All I know is that the only price increase relative to Scarlet is for the fixed 2/3-inch, whose price has increased 25% ($750) since its original design (for the basic kit). But the basic kit reportedly has only one CF slot (vs. the original's two slots), probably the smaller LCD (vs. the original's 4.8-inch), and no HD-SDI port (HD-SDI was specced for the original Scarlet). If this is true, it might bring the the fixed's cost to $5,000 to $6,000 to match the original Scarlet's functionality. I consider a 66% to 100% price increase screwing us, at least relative to the hyped price of the original design. But that's just me. And the original was specced to support Redcode up to 100 MBps rather than only 42 MBps. I'm expecting a further price increase for the fixed Scarlet, which would be questionable in this economy.


One of Jim Jannard's key traits is fairness - he consistently under-promises and over-delivers.

I've found this dichotomy very interesting over the past year. Many of the users here follow Steve's sentiments, while others see Lawrence's side. I'd like to see it talked over in a polite and civilized discussion... see where it goes.

[KETCH ROSSi]

As one of the very first customers of RED, along with my friends Mark Pedersen, Blair, Billy, Shawn, Dino, and many others, I'd like to say that RED has always priced their products at a very generous level to their customers. The performance to price ratio of RED One, and the RED lenses has been nothing short of phenomenal!

One of Jim Jannard's key traits is fairness - he consistently under-promises and over-delivers. Those of you on this thread complaining about prices of products, when they haven't even been finalized and posted, need to seriously step back two squares, re-evaluate your attitudes, and just hold on until the prices are finalized - and when they are, I guarantee you they will be at a good, fair price level.

A fiscally healthy RED company benefits us all - let's not begrudge them their just revenue. All of my friends on RED Team absolutely bust their asses 20 hours a day, seven days a week, to crank out these great products for us. We need to thank them for their efforts, and realize that they absolutely deserve to make a good living for what they do.

I own RED One serial number 0008 and two other very, very early REDs - and I couldn't be happier with RED's prices and customer service.

Please think before you post your product price worries - and realize that whatever the prices are they will be set at a more than fair level. RED has more than earned our respect - let's give it to them.

RED has always been more than fair with us...and I never see that changing...

Just sayin'...


Need I say More?!

[Jannard]

I guess there are various thresholds for being screwed. All I know is that the only price increase relative to Scarlet is for the fixed 2/3-inch, whose price has increased 25% ($750) since its original design (for the basic kit). But the basic kit reportedly has only one CF slot (vs. the original's two slots), probably the smaller LCD (vs. the original's 4.8-inch), and no HD-SDI port (HD-SDI was specced for the original Scarlet). If this is true, it might bring the the fixed's cost to $5,000 to $6,000 to match the original Scarlet's functionality. I consider a 66% to 100% price increase screwing us, at least relative to the hyped price of the original design. But that's just me. And the original was specced to support Redcode up to 100 MBps rather than only 42 MBps. I'm expecting a further price increase for the fixed Scarlet, which would be questionable in this economy.

You certainly can speculate all you want... and if we miss your window of "good"... there are other options out there for you. We are trying to deliver an important product at a price that can be afforded by many (not all) and not lose money in the process. You may want to reserve judgment until more info comes out... but it is your call.

After posts like these, I have to admit 2nd guessing whether we should have ever kept an open dialog. "Subject to change" only seems to be allowed if things get better. Human nature I guess.

Best.

Jim

[Michael Dalton]

I'm expecting a further price increase for the fixed Scarlet, which would be questionable in this economy.

The economy is not too shaky up here in Canada. We'll buy up the first batches till you guys recover a bit!

[Joshua Brown]

You certainly can speculate all you want... and if we miss your window of "good"... there are other options out there for you. We are trying to deliver an important product at a price that can be afforded by many (not all) and not lose money in the process. You may want to reserve judgment until more info comes out... but it is your call.

After posts like these, I have to admit 2nd guessing whether we should have ever kept an open dialog. "Subject to change" only seems to be allowed if things get better. Human nature I guess.

Best.

Jim


Jim, as a business entrepreneur/guru you've learned to ignore the naysayers. Just keep going for a bit longer. Everyone here is wound up and it's your own damn fault teasing us so. :p We trust you and A business is a business, we get that.

-J.A.Brown

[Lawrence Bansbach]

You may want to reserve judgment until more info comes out... but it is your call.
. . .
"Subject to change" only seems to be allowed if things get better. Human nature I guess.
These two statements seem to be at odds with one another. Red made the announcements. First, 3K (3.072 x 1,728) for less than 3K than $3K, then a 25% price increase but a 58% decrease in maximum data rate, and possibly only one CF slot, smaller (2.5-inch) LCD, and no HD-SDI in the basic package. If I reserve judgment until more info comes out, will I learn that fixed Scarlet's maximum data rate will be at least 100 MBps, the basic kit's price will cost $3,750 or less and its specs will exceed those of the original Scarlet? My issue is that the known negative changes seem to be skewed toward the lower end. I base my expectations on what you originally announced. "Subject to change" can be negative if you can accept that judgments, no matter how reserved, will be based on previous announcements. The rule of thumb is under-promise and over-deliver, not the reverse. How about you boost the price of the s35 and FF Scarlets and Epics $1,000 and reduce the price of the 2/3-inch Scarlets? I reserve judgment -- thrill me.

[Joseph Hutson]

You certainly can speculate all you want... and if we miss your window of "good"... there are other options out there for you. We are trying to deliver an important product at a price that can be afforded by many (not all) and not lose money in the process. You may want to reserve judgment until more info comes out... but it is your call.

After posts like these, I have to admit 2nd guessing whether we should have ever kept an open dialog. "Subject to change" only seems to be allowed if things get better. Human nature I guess.

Best.

Jim

Why did people have to ruin the good ol' days? :frown2:

[Mark L. Pederson]

My issue is that the known negative changes seem to be skewed toward the lower end.

A little lost on what is a "known negative change" when final specs and prices have NOT been published ... or did I miss something ...?

What is "known" and "negative"?

[Joseph Hutson]

My issue is that the known negative changes seem to be skewed toward the lower end.

The thing is...you don't know any negative changes. Have you forgotten that that RED hasn't even listed their prices for the products that they haven't even finished?

[Brad Webb]

After posts like these, I have to admit 2nd guessing whether we should have ever kept an open dialog. "Subject to change" only seems to be allowed if things get better. Human nature I guess.

Best.

Jim

Or you can use your right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude. :badputer:

[Rick A. Brown]

Interesting discussion. Personally, I am very confident that Scarlet will be a good buy for what you get. That is different from saying I'll be able to afford it, though. I am hopeful however.

I don't exactly have a hard budget limit, nor could I afford anything right now. However, one of the biggest things on my mind is what will be the best system for someone doing wildlife/conservation documentaries when I do have the money? Currently, there is nothing that I'd be 100% happy with at a price point reasonable to me. Scarlet might change that and is the most concrete expectation at this point in time. (There are other rumors of things that would do what I want.)

100% happy to me equates to 1920x1080 or higher, a codec that doesn't worry me about clients being unhappy with the results, lenses sufficient for wildlife work yet a wide end good for interviews etc., fairly easy workflow for editing the footage.

On the budget side, I doubt I could swing much more than $10000.

Anyhow, I just hope most hold back on the flipping about cost, etc. Until we know something concrete.

[Joseph Hutson]

Or you can use your right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude. :badputer:

I prefer that over keeping quiet. :iagree:

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I've found this dichotomy very interesting over the past year. Many of the users here follow Steve's sentiments, while others see Lawrence's side. I'd like to see it talked over in a polite and civilized discussion... see where it goes.

What Gibby failed to mention was while it's true RED usually underpromises and overdelivers--with a few exceptions. Two things also usually happen: the price increases and the release date gets pushed back. Whether the price increase is worth it is usually the subject of debate. Time will tell, but the dichotomy is that usually people are satisfied, even if the price is higher.

[Roberto Lequeux]

I guess there are various thresholds for being screwed.

And different ones for feeling grateful. ;)

[Joseph Hutson]

What Gibby failed to mention was while it's true RED usually underpromises and overdelivers--with a few exceptions. Two things also usually happen: the price increases and the release date gets pushed back. Whether the price increase is worth it is usually the subject of debate. Time will tell.

But the beauty of the story is...the final outcome brings a lot cheaper price tag on a lot better camera than what the others have to offer (whether or not they reach their price point they tried to accomplish in the first place).

[Joseph Hutson]

And different ones for feeling grateful. ;)

hehe...exactly
:closed2ur0:

[Brad Webb]

But the beauty of the story is...the final outcome brings a lot cheaper price tag on a lot better camera than what the others have to offer (whether or not they reach their price point they tried to accomplish in the first place).

I agree. Even if it's $8000 for the fixed scarlet brain it will be a bargain. Anything less than that is a total steal. :auto:

[Roberto Lequeux]

And even if you don't want to take your hard earned cash to Red, now you have other options -that wouldn't have been there yet it if wasn't for Red-.

[Jason Ramsey]

anywayyyyss.... back to more productive discussion

[Joshua Brown]

Or you can use your right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude. :badputer:

Ooh A novel idea. A sacrificial lamb. :ihih:

-Josh

[Jannard]

What Gibby failed to mention was while it's true RED usually underpromises and overdelivers--with a few exceptions. Two things also usually happen: the price increases and the release date gets pushed back. Whether the price increase is worth it is usually the subject of debate. Time will tell, but the dichotomy is that usually people are satisfied, even if the price is higher.

I think people have selective memories... EPIC S35 started out around $40K (I forgot the actual number). I think people have forgotten that.

Jim

[Jason Ramsey]

FF Scarlet also dropped around 2-3 grand if memory serves when the dec 3rd announcement came.

[Jun-Dai]

My issue is that the known negative changes seem to be skewed toward the lower end.

I'm not quite sure what this sentence means, but I think the real problem is that you're measuring (your idea of) the final product against its hype and completely ignoring how it compares to everything else out there that is in the same price range and/or form factor. I mean, if a guy says he's going to give you a hundred bucks for no reason, and then when he reaches into his pocket only gives you fifty, you're going to start claiming you've been screwed?

You're also ignoring what has changed for the positive here—perhaps because you only care about certain things, and so they don't apply, even if the rest of the cinematographers and wannabe cinematographers would've been happy to pay double for them. We're getting:
* Option re: interchangeable vs. fixed, with a set of lenses to go with.
* The ability to add a ton of battery life, a ton of storage, a ton of viewing and I/O options, or keep the thing completely lightweight, all while knowing that these additional components will be usable should I decide to upgrade from 2/3" to S35, Scarlet to Epic, or Scarlet to Scarlet II.
* The ability to shoot to full-sensor 1080p.

Not sure what else has been added since ConceptScarlet rev.1.

While it'd be great to see a fully-functioning Scarlet kit at $3k or lower, you're forgetting the main point here: This blows away my options at anything less than $17.5k.

Don't get me wrong—a tiny little pocketable $3k 3K camera would have been great, but Red's since figured out that they have even more important things to do.

And "screwed"? Screwed is buying a 5Dii for video and then finding out what it's really capable of.

[Zach Nelson]

Did I miss something? I don't see any concrete posts about Scarlet's price going up...

[Mark L. Pederson]

Did I miss something? I don't see any concrete posts about Scarlet's price going up...

No ... you didn't miss much. Lots of FUD and whining.

[Stuart English]

Screwed is buying a 5Dii for video and then finding out what it's really capable of.

Buying a **** and finding out what it can do, then buying a **** "because it's better", and then a **** because...

Insert any three random camera model numbers in the above sentence and you have described the entry level pro camera market.


So best to chill out about Scarlet, features and pricing. Its going to kick butt and it'll be here soon enough.

And really chill out about REDCODE 42 v's 100 - have you any idea how insanely good REDCODE 42 is ?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I think people have selective memories... EPIC S35 started out around $40K (I forgot the actual number). I think people have forgotten that.

Jim

Hasn't shipped yet, who knows what the final price might be. ;)

However REDOne got a small price bump prior to release--hence the pre-order red accessory credit. Didn't the EVF go up a little bit too? You are right though the FF35 did get a small price cut, just enough to convince me to upsize. :auto:

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

I'm sorry that my post had such an inflamatory reception.

The problem is that Scarlet rised the hopes of people that now may not be able to afford... RED fairness or commitment and competence has nothing to do with it, it's just how things turned out.

I hope in the future RED is able to provide more for even less (because that's what's happening now, why shouldn't it keep going? :)

[Steven Caesare]

I guess there are various thresholds for being screwed. All I know is that the only price increase relative to Scarlet is for the fixed 2/3-inch, whose price has increased 25% ($750) since its original design (for the basic kit). But the basic kit reportedly has only one CF slot (vs. the original's two slots), probably the smaller LCD (vs. the original's 4.8-inch), and no HD-SDI port (HD-SDI was specced for the original Scarlet). If this is true, it might bring the the fixed's cost to $5,000 to $6,000 to match the original Scarlet's functionality. I consider a 66% to 100% price increase screwing us, at least relative to the hyped price of the original design. But that's just me. And the original was specced to support Redcode up to 100 MBps rather than only 42 MBps. I'm expecting a further price increase for the fixed Scarlet, which would be questionable in this economy.

Dude, if you paid money for a product you didn't get, you got screwed.

If you were awake when the guy talking about plans for a product signed his email with "Everything subject to change, count on it", then you didn't get screwed, you just don't comprehend real well.

-sc

[Roberto Lequeux]

Jason, I actually remember it as a 5k+ drop for FF35, and where S35 Scarlet dropped 2-3k. My memory isn't great nowadays but the info is here somewhere if anyone feels like using their good searching skills.

Didn't lot of specs go up?

If I remember correctly, Scarlets had very normal overcranking specs when they were first announced on the 3rd. Then Jim did something about it when tons of people started politely commenting what a pity it was that they weren't going to be able to do much real slow motion. And he added a very generous serving, double the standard of 60fps, and remember that this is RAW 2k and not 4:2:2 1080p. There is even a 150fps burst! S35 and FF35 Scarlets also get an additional 12fps above all (much more expensive!) top shelf cameras, other than the Phantom, which costs $100k more than a Red One.


OK, back to the important stuff of asking questions! What lens is this? I don't recall a 2.8 lens that goes 10-what ever it ends at.

That looks like an RPP, either the 50mm, 85mm, or 100mm. The wider apertures are obscured but they are there. And the scale in the front is focusing distance, also showing only a portion of the scale.

[Steven Caesare]

Why did people have to ruin the good ol' days? :frown2:

No kidding. Man, the business philosphy of RED has been just as much a part of the magic as the products.

I wish folks like this would go start "selfentitledwhiners.net" and go hang out there all the while we get frank discussion with the guy who's as giddy about building the terminator cams as we are about seeing them.

-sc

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Dude, if you paid money for a product you didn't get, you got screwed.

If you were awake when the guy talking about plans for a product signed his email with "Everything subject to change, count on it", then you didn't get screwed, you just don't comprehend real well.

-sc
I comprehended fine. But you can announce anything you want. Until it's delivered, it's vaporware. And when it's delivered, it'll be measured against the original announcment. You comprehend, dude?

[Steven Caesare]

....And when it's delivered, it'll be measured against the original announcment....

Incorrect.

The whole product line refresh was about as public as it could be... If you honestly felt the original announcement was still in effect, then I can't halp ya.

I'll not say more, as Jason already suggested this get back on topic, so you can have the last word if you want, but if you accapt Jim's posts, you gotta accpet them all... including the part about changing....


I'm done.

-sc

[Jon Howe]

Sorry for my speculative comment. I was just trying to convey that RED has always been SO good to their followers - I remember back in the day when they were asking questions on DVXuser to see what WE wanted in a camera.

I have total faith in Jim and Crew. I consider myself to be a lifelong RED customer despite the fact I haven't made a purchase from them yet. (Okay, I bought a hat).

I'm really grateful that they are doing what they are doing in the way they are doing it. Their openness and candor here on the forums - letting us watch as they build their products - it'll all unlike any major business I've ever seen.

Jim, I'll do my best to afford what you make. I'm totally down with everything being subject to change.

[Tim Sutherland]

I'm just excited to find out how much everything will cost so I can find out how much I have to beg, borrow, or steal to get some flavor of 2/3" scarlet and the necessay ( for my purposes, not quite sure what that means yet) and then buid the camera up more when I can afford it. In the end I'll be glad I spent less than Panny or Sony would have me pay just to meet my bare minimum requirements to make it worth ownng something I can get value out of.

Jim, take the necessary time, I'll be saving and not complaining because whenever I figure out how to get one of these things it will be amazing.

[Alan Skinner]

Amazing how the word whiner is so close to the word weiner.......

[Josiah Burdick]

There are those that make something from whatever they have and others who complain about what they don't get...

Reminds me of SS shooting Ché with absolutely NO FEATURES WHATSOEVER... on Build 4 (or whatever it was).

Jim

It's usually the vocal ones who have the worst attitudes. Don't let it get to you. There are hundreds of us who can't wait to see what red delivers. Less features and in my hand is always better than more features and not.

[Michael Dalton]

LETS GET THIS THREAD BACK ON TRACK! We are blowing the best opportunity to get info we've had these camera. Let's not waste Jim's or anyone else's time here.

[Thor Melsted]

I'm just excited to find out how much everything will cost so I can find out how much I have to beg, borrow, or steal to get some flavor of 2/3" scarlet

My humble advice: Just assume you'll need at least $10k to get a simple base 2/3" setup ready to shoot. Then, if you can get away with less than that, you have more $ for your next project - or for more accessories.

This has been my plan since November of '08.
I have been and will remain patient. I know I won't have a low serial # on my Scarlet, but whenever my turn comes, I'll be jumping for joy.
I've seen enough from this company to trust that I'll be getting insane value for my $. Even if I had $50k to spend that would still hold true.

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Incorrect.

The whole product line refresh was about as public as it could be... If you honestly felt the original announcement was still in effect, then I can't halp ya.
Look, we disagree. From my comments, I obviously don't feel the the original announcement is still in effect. If you read closely, you'd have understood that. As I said, any subsequent announcements would be judged in light of the original announcements. It's like a judge ruling against a motion in court and instructing the jury to disregard testimony or a lawyer's comments -- it's unrealistic to assume it'll will be done. Red made pronouncements in April 2008 that it thought were reasonable and realistic, as in "We believe we can give you X for Y dollars." Then about 8 months later -- when technology should be better and cheaper -- they said, in effect, "Well, maybe we can give you less than X, but now it'll cost you 1.25Y dollars." Now, a year and a half after the original announcement, Jim's comments have convinced me that the original vision has been further eroded, and that the price, for diminished specs (relative to the original specs) will be higher still. If these increases were spread over the whole product line and Red humbly acknowledged that they arrogantly goofed, then fine. It's the "We can announce anything we want, but when we tell you to forget we ever said it, please do so" attitude that I have trouble with.

[Milan O.]

I've been budgeting/doing pre production work for a surf film I wanna start sometime in 2010.....looks like as far as equipment goes I can wipe that spreadsheet clean and get ready to start over.

oh well

edit: that just means I will wait longer to start if I need to raise more money...either way I don't have enough to get what I want based on speculative prices so its not a big deal

Peter, you'll have to consider the options. Should RED have built a camera without features to fit your wallet and make a lot of customers disappointed?

Look, I myself am not a rich man but if I really want something I work to get it. In my case it has been expensive guitars, music recording equipment and bikes. Guess I have expensive hobbies. Now I'm interested in buying a camera for making documentaries. I'll probably spend a lot of money but the trick I've learned is to buy something that I won't regret buying and something that can be used for a long period of time.

For a while I considered the EX1 or EX3 but l was lucky and talked to a friend who mentioned RED, I didn't know about RED before. I'm a bit surprised that this needs explaining but here we go: the thing is that the way these new RED cameras are built is ingenious. Not only considering the value for money, but the fact that you only need to upgrade the brain if you need changes is not only fantastic for your economy but also for the environment (which is very important). Tell me one manufacturer except RED that can offer you this? Just one.
And the fact that the accessories from RED One can be used with Epic (and I guess Scarlet also) makes RED deserve even more respect, not only for considering their customers but also the environment.

What RED has done with this camera is something that many manufacturers of other products should follow. The Earth's resources aren't endless and by working this way RED show a more realistic approach towards manufacturing and technology, called sustainable development.

On the other hand, there are cheaper cameras that will probably work for you. Jim seems to be very clear on the point that everthying is a subject to change, and he's right. That's the way the Universe works, everything changes. Maybe it's time to accept it?

There's a saying in Sweden which goes "Du kan inte ha kvar kakan och äta upp den" which means that you can't keep the cake and eat it. Even though I don't own a Red (yet) my impression is that RED let's you keep a lot of the cake but you get to eat a lot more than you ever had before.
That is if you compare their offer with other manufacturers. And everything in life is relative.

To my opinion they seem to be doing an extremly good job. Compare RED's performance with a lot of other companies, hopefully that will help you to be a bit more understanding to what they do.

Peace.

[Jason Ramsey]

this thread has gotten way off track... Take it somewhere else, so we can bring this back on point.

Thanks.

later,
jason

[Lawrence Bansbach]

I'm not quite sure what this sentence means, but I think the real problem is that you're measuring (your idea of) the final product against its hype and completely ignoring how it compares to everything else out there that is in the same price range and/or form factor.
Interesting, but irrelevant. I'm measuring against what Red originally specced. Microsoft (as well as others) has crushed competition by overpromising. Sadly, it invariably underdelivers.


I mean, if a guy says he's going to give you a hundred bucks for no reason, and then when he reaches into his pocket only gives you fifty, you're going to start claiming you've been screwed?
Red's not giving anyone anything. They are offering you something in exchange for a consideration, or more basically, they are selling you products. If they said the price, for a diminished set of specs, is now doubled, would you feel so happy?


You're also ignoring what has changed for the positive here—perhaps because you only care about certain things, and so they don't apply, even if the rest of the cinematographers and wannabe cinematographers would've been happy to pay double for them. We're getting:
* Option re: interchangeable vs. fixed, with a set of lenses to go with.
I don't know how many people -- raw number or percentage of potential 2/3-inch Scarlet users -- demanded interchangeable lenses, let alone would be willing to pay double for the feature. Do you?


* The ability to add a ton of battery life, a ton of storage, a ton of viewing and I/O options, or keep the thing completely lightweight, all while knowing that these additional components will be usable should I decide to upgrade from 2/3" to S35, Scarlet to Epic, or Scarlet to Scarlet II.
The original Scarlet's battery, storage, or I/O options were never specced, so I don't know.


* The ability to shoot to full-sensor 1080p.
The original design was supposed to support 1080p. Whether it was to be full-sensor was never announced. And before you mention frame-rate ramping, Ted Schilowitz has said that that was planned.


Don't get me wrong—a tiny little pocketable $3k 3K camera would have been great, but Red's since figured out that they have even more important things to do.
It was never pocketable. But if you're saying Red has abandoned a relatively full-featured, out-of-the-box complete low-end model, I hope that remains to be seen.


And "screwed"? Screwed is buying a 5Dii for video and then finding out what it's really capable of.
"Screwed" wasn't my term.

[Ruby Quincunx]

Look, we disagree. From my comments, I obviously don't feel the the original announcement is still in effect. If you read closely, you'd have understood that. As I said, any subsequent announcements would be judged in light of the original announcements. It's like a judge ruling against a motion in court and instructing the jury to disregard testimony or a lawyer's comments -- it's unrealistic to assume it'll will be done. Red made pronouncements in April 2008 that it thought were reasonable and realistic, as in "We believe we can give you X for Y dollars." Then about 8 months later -- when technology should be better and cheaper -- they said, in effect, "Well, maybe we can give you less than X, but now it'll cost you 1.25Y dollars." Now, a year and a half after the original announcement, Jim's comments have convinced me that the original vision has been further eroded, and that the price, for diminished specs (relative to the original specs) will be higher still. If these increases were spread over the whole product line and Red humbly acknowledged that they arrogantly goofed, then fine. It's the "We can announce anything we want, but when we tell you to forget we ever said it, please do so" attitude that I have trouble with.

Then please speak with your pocketbook when you get the opportunity, rather than mooting your dissatisfaction at such pointless length on this forum.

[Steve Gibby]

I've found this dichotomy very interesting over the past year. Many of the users here follow Steve's sentiments, while others see Lawrence's side. I'd like to see it talked over in a polite and civilized discussion... see where it goes.

I've been offline for a few hours and I've just reviewed the additional posts on this thread since my last post.

Ok Ian...let's start the discussion you wanted here:

I have spent over $100,000 since August 2007 on multiple RED One cameras, lenses, and accessories from RED. I've been a paying customer of RED since day 1. I'm very happy as an actual paying customer of RED - with RED's pricing strategy and customer service. With this info considered, I may very accurately be termed a seasoned and experienced customer of RED's products.

Now, how about you Lawrence? What's the dollar amount of products you've actually bought from RED? Over how long a period of time?

And you Ian? What's the dollar amount of products you've actually bought from RED? Over how long a period of time?

I ask those questions because I'd like to be clear on if you have been an actual paying customer of RED - or are simply planning to be sometime in the future.

Ian, I think you'll find here that the people here who agree with my sentiments in my last post are almost all past paying customers of RED - like Ketch Rossi, etc. - and the ones who haven't been paying customers, but still agree with my sentiments have probably bought a lot of other camera systems and just clearly realize what an excellent performance to cost ratio RED products represent.

I also think the rest of the ones here who don't agree with my post have probably not been paying customers of RED, but for whatever reason they feel they need to criticize RED's pricing policies.

This will be a civil discussion gentlemen...and lets start with Lawrence and Ian. So what are your answers to my questions?

[KETCH ROSSi]

I understand that this is a Forum of public opinions,but some sure know how to talk nothing but nonsense and total BS, well some time I do to, but only some times, while some people here seem to get carried away and to this all the time, is getting really annoying far beyond acceptance levels!!

I particularly enjoy the way Jim decided to approach his new company "RED" and I kinda get away and browse this forum to read what friend are saying and in what way I can learn and in what way I can help others learn, but I surely enjoy Jim's posts about new upcoming gear such as EPIC, and SCARLET, with all the goodies to come, I never once worried about pricing, they are not done yet with the products, how can I ask for final pricing of something hasn't even been finished?!

People tend to forget what is available out there instead of the RED ONE or the Upcoming Scarlet and more so in place of EPIC, just today I unfortunately had no choice but put my self in the market for a Hasselblad 645, and we are talking about the super fast processing power at amazingly "39 FRAME per Minute" Helloooooo that is one frame every "1.4 SECONDS" !!!!

Here I'm talking my ASS away about the feature of EPIC 645 with my Hassy buddies, in the various MF forums, and just but dreaming at the soon to come feature of when the 645 Medium Pro Commercial Photographer world gets such a TOOL of literal WONDER, were no longer you count "SECONDS PER FRAME" but FRAME per SECOND" and may so very many, uh what 100fps many?

Now this is what I like to read about and the progress of RED and look at the great Renders that Jim puts time in to it, just to show us something to feed our hope that RED is working and good things are coming, so please let them come, and lets try to stop wyning about this and that all the F$!$@!$ TIME already, and just say "THANKS JIM, THAKS RED TEAM FOR KEEPING US AS INFORMED AS POSSIBLE, AND PUTTING EXTRA WORK JUST TO GIVE US SOME EYE KANDY WHILE WE WAIT"


THANKS

[Brendan Johnson]

just clearly realize what an excellent performance to cost ratio RED products represent.



Yep..That line sums it up for me

[Ian B. Johnson]

I've been offline for a few hours and I've just reviewed the additional posts on this thread.

Ok Ian...let's start the discussion you wanted here:

I have spent over $100,000 since August 2007 on multiple RED One cameras, lenses, and accessories from RED. I've been a paying customer of RED since day 1. I'm very happy as an actual paying customer of RED - with RED's pricing strategy and customer service. With this info considered, I may very accurately be termed a seasoned and experienced customer of RED's products.

Now, how about you Lawrence? What's the dollar amount of products you've actually bought from RED? Over how long a period of time?

And you Ian? What's the dollar amount of products you've actually bought from RED? Over how long a period of time?

I ask those questions because I'd like to be clear on if you have been an actual paying customer of RED - or are simply planning to be sometime in the future.

Ian, I think you'll find here that the people here who echo agree with my sentiments in my last post are almost all past paying customers of RED - like Ketch Rossi, - and the ones who haven't been paying customers, but still agree with my sentiments have probably bought a lot of other camera systems and just clearly realize what an excellent performance to cost ratio RED products represent.

I also think the rest of the ones here who don't agree with my post have probably not been paying customers of RED, but they feel they need to criticize RED's pricing policies.

Its annie up time gentlemen...and lets start with Lawrence and Ian. So what are your answers to my questions?

Hey Steve,

Thanks for the response. As for me, I'm not yet a paying Red customer. But you are, and this is what I find so interesting- it says a heck of a lot for the company, seeing almost all current customers completely satisfied despite the delays and hiccups that came with the One. As it stands right now, I'm mostly frustrated because I don't have my Scarlet yet, nor do I know when I'll get it.

Judging by the current attitudes of Red customers, I feel once we get our Red equipment we'll be satisfied. But until that time comes, each subsequent delay or reduction of specs is hard to take. There's nothing illogical about these regressions- Red is pushing the envelope of both product capabilities and system cost, and there are certain things that just can't be changed. Red is certainly not going to lose money on each sale just to stick to their original announcement, nor are they going to scam us into overpaying. Current owners and new customers are stuck here- you'll continue supporting the company that supports you, and we'll continue as (rightful) skeptics until we're convinced it's all good. Neither one is wrong, in fact I think both groups are quite right in their opinions. Current customers become loyal subscribers to and supporters of the Red model, and potential customers push Red to earn their business by creating the absolute best products possible.

Does that make sense?

[Shawn Nelson]

As one of the very first customers of RED, along with my friends Mark Pedersen, Blair, Billy, Shawn, Dino, and many others, I'd like to say that RED has always priced their products at a very generous level to their customers. The performance to price ratio of RED One, and the RED lenses has been nothing short of phenomenal!

One of Jim Jannard's key traits is fairness - he consistently under-promises and over-delivers. Those of you on this thread complaining about prices of products, when they haven't even been finalized and posted, need to seriously step back two squares, re-evaluate your attitudes, and just hold on until the prices are finalized - and when they are, I guarantee you they will be at a good, fair price level.

A fiscally healthy RED company benefits us all - let's not begrudge them their just revenue. All of my friends on RED Team absolutely bust their asses 20 hours a day, seven days a week, to crank out these great products for us. We need to thank them for their efforts, and realize that they absolutely deserve to make a good living for what they do.

I own RED One serial number 0008 and two other very, very early REDs - and I couldn't be happier with RED's prices and customer service.

Please think before you post your product price worries - and realize that whatever the prices are they will be set at a more than fair level. RED has more than earned our respect - let's give it to them.

RED has always been more than fair with us...and I never see that changing...

Just sayin'...

Thanks Steve. I agree, Red has been more than fair. I'm coming at this from the bottom of the wallet so to speak. I afforded Red by co-owning it with my dad (and it took us over a year of saving up plus a loan just to slide sideways into a basic package). We've paid for every single upgrade simply through rental revenue and personal money, I have bled for everything I've got and it's all been worth it. Red's service and attitude is completely unmatched in all of my experiences. It is a pleasure to wire them money that I didnt know was possible for me to amass, because it's worth it. Since i got my RPPs i feel I have a brand new camera.

Shout out to my wife for nearly four years of marriage without any vacations because all excess funds get spent on Red and accs :-). A few summers ago there was a Timberland song that had the refrain 'I aint got no money, but I'm the one that loves you best' so I'd always sing it back to her 'I aint got no money, spent it all on Red, but I'm the one...' haha.

So just to get it from someone who bleeds for his Red, it's worth it.

[KETCH ROSSi]

Okay sorry for the rant, has been a long day and Hasselblad H3DII-39 isn't cheap either, neither has the Epic numbers, but will do till then, and we are here in support of RED, no matter what, I'm good in giving away stuff selling half price and shit, so well, when time comes this will be just an other piece of gear to forget about it ":).

Sorry again if it seemed a rant out of place, but again tired and don't like to come in to my favorite Forum, and read so much nonsense.

[Ian B. Johnson]

oops.

[Ian B. Johnson]

This thread started down a good path. It has a LOT of views for good reason. The announcement will come sometime this month. Why not hold off speculation (and any celebration or disappointment) until you know exactly what the situation is?

If this debate continues without any info whatsoever... I'll need to shut this thread down. That will really piss me off. Just so you know.

BTW... thanks Ian for helping to get this back under control.

Jim

Happy to help, Jim.

[Stephen Gentle]

Why not hold off speculation (and any celebration or disappointment) until you know exactly what the situation is?

Yes, everyone here does seem to be making a big deal out of nothing - several pages worth of post seem to have been made by people somehow suddenly jumping to the conclusion that Scarlet has multiplied in price, just from a little hint that some of the products might be priced differently...

I know that everyone who's been here from the early days really values RED's openness, and I hope that this silly speculation isn't going to hurt that.

[Tim Whitcomb]

Buying a **** and finding out what it can do, then buying a **** "because it's better", and then a **** because...

Insert any three random camera model numbers in the above sentence and you have described the entry level pro camera market.


So best to chill out about Scarlet, features and pricing. Its going to kick butt and it'll be here soon enough.

And really chill out about REDCODE 42 v's 100 - have you any idea how insanely good REDCODE 42 is ?

I do, we just shot two weekends in a row with Redcode 42 and Build 21 and my jaw is still dragging on the floor... seriously... all this Epic and Scarlet stuff is exciting as hell... but RED ONE with Build 21 and Redcode 42 is fucking sick good people... if you cant afford it, Im sorry. then RENT. BORROW, BEG its friggin amazing.

Or better yet, focus on story and/or getting clients... and come on, RED hasn't announced anything yet... wtf? chillax !!

What are your alternatives sub $5000? (if the price gets that high) EX-1 HVX-200 or HP 170?? then add LEtus/Brevis adapter and lenses... and dont even mention STILL cameras that record H.264... or AVCHD motion... with horrific audio... puh lease...

Steve Gibby... rock on dude.

Most importantly, remember , the "how" is irrelevant if you have the right attitude. Good things come to those who wait... all delays are divine... READ: insert your favorite cliche'... these guys went from SCAM to soon to be offering a 3 effin K camera for under $5K. and your bitching? ... huh?

[Ian B. Johnson]

Just FYI, I think the retitling of this thread was a bit heavy handed by the mods... As potential customers we have the right to question pricing, specs, etc, especially on a forum. I think this sort of 'moderating' is a bit extreme. It was indeed irrelevant to the thread it was in (to some degree), thus moving it was certainly appropriate, but is the harsh judgement really necessary?

[Brad Webb]

I think it's hilarious. :violin:

Although I have no idea what FUD means.

[Tim Whitcomb]

Ian, you seem like a reasonable fellow. But you started a thread questioning pricing that does NOT exist... you reap what you sow man. Know what I mean? the good news is you sound passionate about owning a RED product and that is great. All we (red defenders) are saying is it sounds petty and mean spirited to be questioning... well, conjecture. Know what I mean?

Let's find out out the facts, and go from there. If the product has improved exponentially while developing it, then wouldn't you want to charge a little more to cover those costs?... or would you prefer they stuck to price and sacrificed features? I imagine that as they work on this stuff, they have "aha moments" all the time and are smart enough to think... "well, it will cost a little more but the benefits are worth it"

SO far they have exceeded expectations and lets not forget with the camera comes FREE software like Redcine-x and free firmware upgrades... and on and on.

Don't take it personally. We all want RED to be around a long time, and as much as Jim has stated he over and over he is not in this to pad the bottom line, its a business with costs and most of us are extremely grateful for that generosity and mantra. Make sense?

[Joseph Hutson]

Although I have no idea what FUD means.

FearUncertaintyDoubt

[Roberto Lequeux]

aka: :willy_nilly:

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I have spent over $100,000 since August 2007 on multiple RED One cameras, lenses, and accessories from RED. I've been a paying customer of RED since day 1. I'm very happy as an actual paying customer of RED - with RED's pricing strategy and customer service. With this info considered, I may very accurately be termed a seasoned and experienced customer of RED's products.

I also think the rest of the ones here who don't agree with my post have probably not been paying customers of RED, but for whatever reason they feel they need to criticize RED's pricing policies.

This will be a civil discussion gentlemen...and lets start with Lawrence and Ian. So what are your answers to my questions?

The alternate way to look at this is that some of us aren't yet customers because RED hasn't yet delivered the camera that we personally would feel the compulsion or need to own. And that we're the market that RED needs to listen to if it wants to expand its customer base.

It's a bit of self selection to say there is nothing wrong with RED's offerings when you're already a customer. It's important to listen to non-customers because they can offer insight into why they haven't yet invested a large sum of money themselves.

I personally haven't yet bought any RED products because I decided ownership of a REDOne wasn't a sensible course of action for my ambitions and goals in life. Which isn't to say that RED can't sell me a product that would meet my personal needs. By listening to people such as myself who haven't directly purchased RED products RED opens its market to new customers. New Customers who might have different needs than existing customers.

Personally a $3k increase in price wouldn't matter much. But for a student that would easily put it out of their price range and be a very different buying experience than my own. Which is to say I would buy less accessories but not really be too noticeably affected. In your case $3k would be an even smaller drop in the bucket.

I'm not saying that RED is going to increase their prices. I'm just responding to the notion that you need to be a customer to have RED's pricing policies affect you. For instance I probably will never be a 3k scarlet customer. So the student who has been saving for the last 3 years actually in my view has a more important voice in pricing and features than I do. I'm not the target market.

And I wager a customer who spends $100k in goods will probably get a lot more perks down the road than the customer who spends $4k or even $20k. If you fly first class the seats are comfy and the food is good. :D Same airline, different experience.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

why are people complaining????
If you can not afford a cinema camera.. then dont buy it! rent.. or buy a cheaper camera.

people complaining because the price may increase... PLEASE!!!

RED is not obligated to please you.
what they are coming up with will be worth whatever they charge

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I imagine that as they work on this stuff, they have "aha moments" all the time and are smart enough to think... "well, it will cost a little more but the benefits are worth it"

Assuming you can afford it. But if they doubled the price and the framerate offerings I would take my money elsewhere.

Just because it's better doesn't necessarily make it worth the extra cost. I recognize the superiority of the Epic line. I don't see it being worth the extra cost. Maybe for rental, but not for me personally 99% of the time.

I recognize the value of an Enzo doesn't mean I would personally spend the money on it. Sometimes you have to deliver a substandard product at a lower price or run the risk of inching your way into a new price class.

If you have a student with $3k saved and they can afford a camera which shoots 120fps but you can get 150fps for another $600 that might be worth it to some, but it also means that student suddenly can't afford it at all, in which case they get 0fps, which is worse than 120. :D

"Worth it" is completely relative.

[Steve Gibby]

Gavin,

Though those are some interesting perspectives, those who have actually spent money on RED products and used them in the field regularly are logically and naturally much more qualified to judge what is/was a a good deal in those specific products and others like them - and what has a good performance to price ratio.

Many people sit on their laptops combing tech forums all day every day - and then somehow feel they are experts on the actual field use of equipment they read about - and its true performance to price ratio. They're deluding themselves though. Its the people who actually buy the equipment, and are expert enough to push it to its limits, who are in the best position to judge what was a good buy and what wasn't.

The people who raise the funds to buy equipment, put it to good use, and are happy with it, are actually the core of the expanding purchaser base for new products. They have the equipment to help generate the revenue to buy more equipment, and if they're happy with the company they have bought from, they naturally tend to continue to buy more products from that company as their businesses grow. Beyond that, happy customers tend to spread the word about their happy purchases - which in a modern, online world fuels viral marketing. So I disagree - it is the satisfied customers of a company which not only buy increasing amounts of products they are happy with - but also fuel viral marketing.

All successful businesses realize that it is much more fiscally viable, and costs much less per customer, to retain existing customers, rather than mine new ones. In this business, the best advertising is word of mouth - and satisfied customers talk a lot about what they like, others listen, and more product is sold. That's not to say mining new customers isn't important - they are - but they are very effectively reached by reports form others who have bought what they're interested, in, and in turn give their feelings on it and its value.

For any businessman like myself, a penny saved is a penny earned. We don't get successful by throwing money around needlessly. That said, we also come over time to recognize value and good deals in our purchases.

The bottom line is we all vote with our wallets. Those of us who have voted heavily with our wallets, are seasoned professionals in this industry, and have succeeded in this business in large measure because we've learned what to buy, for how much, and how to use it, are naturally impatient with people who haven't bought the products, many times are not seasoned industry veterans, haven't used them, and yet they feel the need to whine and spread FUD on forums - especially when its about things that are pure conjecture. Very few of the guys who have the funds to buy this equipment were just handed the money by a rich Uncle - they earned it and know how and where to spend it.

The truth is that the specifications and prices of the new RED products have not even been announced - so this whining and FUD is a tempest in a tea pot.

Now, just like with RED One, after the prices and specifications are finalized, there will still be some "armchair experts" here who find something to complain about. That's human nature and the law of averages.

I have great empathy for those who are just starting out and are budget challenged - I was once there, as was every one of the seasoned pros on this board. That's why I take my time whenever I can to visit here, give my input, and advise just about anyone who civilly asks me a question. But if anyone who is new to this industry wants advice from experienced veterans, you better be able to be quiet at times and just listen - that's your fast track to success.

I'm all about constructive input - the key word being constructive. But it is ludicrous to even be having the discussions on this thread until after the specifications and prices have been finalized and announced. If some RED price complainers would spend a lot less time online complaining, and a lot more time out working and finding work, they'd probably be able to afford their dream camera system much sooner.

Its late and I have an early get up tomorrow, so I don't know how much longer I'll be online tonight. Lets everyone take a chill pill and just wait until the official prices and specs are finalized. But mark my words - there will be chorus of whiners then too. There was when R1 was finalized, and with each product RED has introduced.

[Felix K.]

As my post in the other thread is kind of the starting point of this discussion I will say one last word about this topic.
All I did was add the then still present numbers of the guestimation prices of the Fixed Lens Scarlet and stated what a good price it had and that I hoped that that part hasn't been subject to change. And with good I meant "low" not "value/dollar".
Jim then quoted that, saying, as he often does, that everything is subject to change.
I read into that, maybe falsly, that the prices might be adjusted to something higher than they were.
I respect all you RED-Owners deeply, specially the directors and DoPs, because of your knowledge and experience but I ask you please to remember what it was like when you first started out.
Many people, who are not REDowners, hope for a professional camera that they can afford. The announcement of the Scarlet is the first camera ever to offer professional hardware for a prosumer price. Nobody has ever doubted the professionality of the Scarlet as it will be. At least I haven't.
I just know that I have a limit to what I can invest (right now) in a semi-professional hobby that might become more some day.
Sorry if that annoys you.

[Häakon]

There are two sides to this coin, and I think that everyone just needs to take a deep breath. At this point, RED is just sharing information. There are still things we don't know, and it's RED's prerogative to address those questions as they see fit. But the level of back and forth about details that haven't been revealed yet is crazy.

First of all, Jim has never said anything about an absolute price increase. They've removed all of the pricing information from the Epic and Scarlet information pages, so right now there isn't anything concrete to go on... we just have to wait. All Jim said was "stay tuned" and his usual "everything is subject to change." Of course that leaves us in the dark for another month, but that's just something we have to deal with.

To that hand, I can understand the frustration of some users who read posts like this one:


We have just made a number of final changes to our program. It has become clear that our competition is finally paying attention to what we are doing so this time we will NOT announce what the changes are.

I will say the following:

1. No negative price/performance changes.
2. Only positive feature and system changes.
3. No additional slip to the target schedule.

that say very definitively things like "final changes" have been made, and there will be "no negative price/performance changes." Of course there are always unforeseen circumstances that affect development and production. But what is one supposed to think with a barrage of messages that say conflicting statements? There will be no negative price/performance changes, but everything is subject to change? I'm not sure what to take from that but to wait until the next "definitive" announcement (that is subject to change). Basically, I've learned not to accept anything as final until I've paid for it and it is in my hands. To a degree, it makes people guarded about the kind of information that is released, though, because we've learned that nothing really is final until it's final... and sometimes that means we can't get as excited as I think Jim would like us to be. When we hear things like "3K for $3K!," people get excited... so if that target slips a little, then their frustration is, I think, understandable - even if the price change is completely reasonable. RED made a change to their policy this year by holding back on information until they were more ready to release it. I think perhaps they should do this with pricing targets as well.

I know that what Jim & Co. have taken on is extraordinary, risky, and monumental. They have done what no other camera company would have even come close to bringing to the table for at least a decade and have certainly made a lot of people excited about what digital filmmaking has to offer. None of what they have accomplished should be understated.

That being said, they have a dramatic way about doing things. It's just their style. Some people say it's "brilliant marketing" (others bash them for it), but I don't think it's marketing as much as it is genuine passion that resonates with their audience. Sometimes they get a little sensitive to posts because they know firsthand the incredible advances they're making and we don't always have the information. So there's a bit of a disconnect there. And perhaps they bite off more than they can chew sometimes, but they choose to figure it out and (over)deliver on their promises even if it means missing their targeted schedule. It frustrates people, but again, ends up being the right choice in the end.

I think all discussion about price should just stop completely until the October announcement is made and things are made more clear. And I think that RED needs to understand that there's no way they can please everyone, regardless of how amazing your products are, and you just have to let the obscene amount of crazy posts roll off your shoulders. It's just really not worth getting worked up about.

In my opinion, these new renders are nice - but nearly all of this stuff has been on the table (literally) since the NAB party in April and even more recently at IBC. Do some searching and practically all of the questions that are being asked have been answered by RED in some capacity or another several times over. What is still unknown will be made plenty clear by RED when they lay everything out before the cameras are made available. Until then, rest assured that RED is committed to bringing the best quality products at the most reasonable prices they can to everyone. They've not given us a reason to doubt that up to this point.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

But isn't that 'whiny' attitude the sort of attitude that created RED in the first place? Did you ever consider purchasing a D20? (Trick question I know since they weren't for sale... but hypothetically)

Sony wasn't listening to the market, Arri wasn't listening to the market, JVC, Panasonic... nobody was... nobody except RED. And for those whom the REDOne was a good fit and had at least $25k RED delivered.

When the REDOne was released you made the savvy business decision that it would be a great investment. So did I--that for me it wasn't. :D

I don't see most of the concern in this thread being armchair technophiles worried about whether they are going to getting a 14bit DSP vs a 12bit DSP, they're concerned about price. They're concerned that they won't be able to purchase a camera at all, any camera from RED. It doesn't take any industry experience to know what one's budget it. If your budget is $4k but the price $4.5k it doesn't really matter how good the camera is, you're wishing you could afford it and it wasn't "worth it".

I'm sure the latest jet upgrade for Jim was "worth it" and I'm sure it was a fair price. Doesn't mean I could afford it though. I just want to be sure that people aren't coming down too hard on those "3k for $3k" crowd and thinking that they are accusing RED of being cheats. That's not the impression I'm getting from them. My impression is simply that they want to make their voices heard that a fair price that's outside their budget would mean they can no longer afford it. Price/Performance ratios are great. But somewhere along that price/performance ratio we all have have a point where we have to step away and say "fair but not worth it." I would even say for me the F23 is "fair but not worth it", there's clearly still a thriving F23 market for those who feel differently.

But as you said at this point it's far too early to speculate and there is no reason to necessarily even believe RED will raise prices.

[Steve Gibby]

Nah, it wan't a whiny attitude that created RED, it was a progressive attitude. I was there from before Day 1 with RED, wrote all the early magazine articles about RED, etc. Believe me, I have a very good handle on the formation and birth of RED - and it wasn't about a reaction to whiny attitudes, but rather it was the progressive and proactive attitudes possessed by Jim and a few others that was the impetus to form RED.

There are three types of people in this industry:
1) Those who make things happen
2) Those who conplain about what's happening
3) Those who wonder what just happened

Jim and RED Team are definitely Type 1 :)

This isn't an easy industry to get into or stay in. Everyone starts somewhere and sometime. No matter when you start it never seems to be easy. Nothing of any value comes easily - otherwise you wouldn't value it highly. My best advice to those who are budget challenged is to work real hard every single day while you're waiting to buy your camera, market your services daily (close deals), borrow some funds if necessary, and ultimately you'll be able to afford the camera you want. When you get it, hit the road running and put it to work for you. Next thing you know your business will grow and you'll be buying a 2nd and 3rd camera and all the other tools of your trade you need. In fact though, owning a camera system isn't absolutely critical to success in this industry. If you're a indie person, yes, owning a camera really helps. But lots of people who are successful in this industry never own a camera - they rent everything, or use what a project provides.

All us veterans have been down that startup phase road - we empathize with you, and most of us here are happy to be a resource for newcomers.

But, the bottom line premise here is still the same - there has been no price increase announced by RED, so nobody on this thread should be fretting about an increase. Lets deal with realities here - and not unfounded worries.

[Liam Hall]

There are three types of people in this industry:
1) Those who make things happen
2) Those who conplain about what's happening
3) Those who wonder what just happened

Too true!

There's way too much whining going on. Some people won't be happy until their RED is delivered free of charge with a crate of Don Perignon and lifetime membership to Spearmint Rhino.

[Steve Gibby]

...and a box of Jim's finest Cuban cigars too! :sifone:

[Steven Caesare]

Look, we disagree. From my comments, I obviously don't feel the the original announcement is still in effect. If you read closely, you'd have understood that. As I said, any subsequent announcements would be judged in light of the original announcements. It's like a judge ruling against a motion in court and instructing the jury to disregard testimony or a lawyer's comments -- it's unrealistic to assume it'll will be done. Red made pronouncements in April 2008 that it thought were reasonable and realistic, as in "We believe we can give you X for Y dollars." Then about 8 months later -- when technology should be better and cheaper -- they said, in effect, "Well, maybe we can give you less than X, but now it'll cost you 1.25Y dollars." Now, a year and a half after the original announcement, Jim's comments have convinced me that the original vision has been further eroded, and that the price, for diminished specs (relative to the original specs) will be higher still. If these increases were spread over the whole product line and Red humbly acknowledged that they arrogantly goofed, then fine. It's the "We can announce anything we want, but when we tell you to forget we ever said it, please do so" attitude that I have trouble with.

Well, now that this thread has it's own playground....

You are disappointed you didn't get what Jim had originally anticipated building. We get that.

Jim has ALWAYS been up front that the RED landscape was subject to change. Did YOU get that?

Bcause feeling that you've "been screwed" on a product that was only discussed, never even built, and that you never paid any money for, all the while the person discussing the product has TOLD YOU that the specs are subject to change, seems a bit much to me.

Buying a used car from a dealership that knows the transmisison is about to die: screwed.

Not getting something you anticipated because you didn't believe the disclaimer and then bitching about it here: whiny.


Now it may seem like a small thing to you... but rack up all the people who apparently don't comprehend the Red philosphy of development, feedback, disclosure, etc... who come on here and whine BEFORE THE PRICING AND SPECS HAVE EVER BEEN ANNOUNCED, and the big guy sooner or later gets tired if it and decides to start clamming up.

So think before you start throwing terms around.

-sc

PS- Great thread title.

[Jannard]

Steven... there is a point of truth to your last comment. As soon as someone says we are "screwing them", I have to think that something is very wrong with our approach. "Screwing" anyone is the furthest thing away from our intent. If too many people don't like the program, we definitely need to re-think the presentation. Clam up came to mind.

There was no marketing plan when we started this company. It evolved. Posting and listening just happened. It seemed to make sense and seemed to work. But as "everything changes"... so can our presentation. Just need to know whether to talk out loud during the process with people realizing the need to change and adapt as things move along, or do it the old fashion way. You all get to choose.

Jim

[DCC Erickson]

How about issuing a "license to whine" with every RED camera ordered? Then those who have the actual item in their clammy hands can gripe, and the rest can respectfully keep the whimpering to themselves.

[Eki Halkka]

Just need to know whether to talk out loud during the process with people realizing the need to change and adapt as things move along, or do it the old fashion way. You all get to choose.

Me likes the first option. Definitely.

[Stephen Grubb]

As Abraham Lincoln almost said

You can make some of the people happy all the time, all of the people happy some of the time but you can't make all of the people happy all of the time.

My happiness explained as a potential new Red customer.

A. I'm very happy some of the time.

B. When I'm filming with a camera (whichever make) I'm happy almost all of the time (except the time one chewed my tape!)

C. If I buy a RED I hope to be extremely impressed and then I shall refer back to point B whilst removing the tape element from the equation. Hoorraa!

RED, you chaps have done a marvelous job on bringing the next phase to market. Great concept, amazing leaps in technology and an ingenious marketing strategy to boot in this digital age. Whatever the final price / delivery date and wheather or not I can afford it, I have no doubt RED will lead and the others will have no choice but to follow.

I look forward to the announcment.

Woops! Didn't see Jim's last post about not really having a marketing strategy. Still, works a treat though.

[Martin Weiss]

How about issuing a "license to whine" with every RED camera ordered?

Are there any actual owners who partake in the whining? I get the impression it is only Scarlet wannabes who hoped for a $999 camera with 4000 frames a second, at least 17 stops of range and a minimum of 999k pixels....

[DCC Erickson]

Are there any actual owners who partake in the whining? I get the impression it is only Scarlet wannabes who hoped for a $999 camera with 4000 frames a second, at least 17 stops of range and a minimum of 999k pixels....

You mean that's NOT what we're getting!??!!?!?! :ohmy:

[Steven Caesare]

Steven... there is a point of truth to your last comment. As soon as someone says we are "screwing them", I have to think that something is very wrong with our approach. "Screwing" anyone is the furthest thing away from our intent. If too many people don't like the program, we definitely need to re-think the presentation. Clam up came to mind.

There was no marketing plan when we started this company. It evolved. Posting and listening just happened. It seemed to make sense and seemed to work. But as "everything changes"... so can our presentation. Just need to know whether to talk out loud during the process with people realizing the need to change and adapt as things move along, or do it the old fashion way. You all get to choose.

Jim

Well Jim, for what it's worth, I'm not a Red customer yet... I'm hoping I may be able to change that with Scarlet/Fixed. (I'm not in the biz, so I'd need to cough up the cash out of sheer video hobbyist geekdom).

Nonethless, I am a huge proponent of your business philosphy, and applaud it. I sincerely hope that those of us who are trying to "get it" provide enough sense of group appreciation (and dare I say accomplishment?), that it outweighs the noise from the whiny forum jockeys*.

When asked once if you ever tired of hearing how much you rock, you said: "No.". So:

Rock on sir!

-sc

* So called because most of the whiners wouldn't dare make some of the rude assertions in person they make here.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

There was no marketing plan when we started this company. It evolved. Posting and listening just happened. It seemed to make sense and seemed to work. But as "everything changes"... so can our presentation. Just need to know whether to talk out loud during the process with people realizing the need to change and adapt as things move along, or do it the old fashion way. You all get to choose.

Jim

While I don't think RED is screwing anyone, if you clammed up you wouldn't get pricing feedback either. I've always thought one of the huge advantages of the RED approach is that you can take a litmus test of interest and excitement instantaneously.

"Hey if we released a $3k camera with these features how excited would you guys be? How about at $5k? Is everyone still excited?" If half of scarlet user suddenly lost interest and page views plunged you would have a pretty good indication that a certain market segment wasn't being served anymore. :D

I certainly don't envy the task of trying to find the best balance. A balance that will undoubtedly get easier as technology progresses.

[Stephen Matthews]

honestly if you can't afford more than 3k for a camera this good then maybe you aren't ready for it yet. Look at what is out on the market now, do you know how to use it? can you get the best image from it? Cause if you are a struggling student I don't think this is the best investment, maybe you should just get a lower end camera and practice your craft instead of going on to internet forums and complaining about a price of a camera that doesn't even exist on the market yet.

[Felix K.]

I'm a Scarlet wannabe. I surely hope for a camera around the guestimated price with the sort of the key features that were mentioned. Nothing else. I'm not whining about anything. All I was saying, was that if it was more expensive I would have to wait longer and or maybe (even worse) buy something else. Both would be sad for me of course. I'm not jumping around here saying "MAKE IT DIFFERENT OR I QUIT". I'm not a child. I just say that I dream of owning a Red camera some day and that the probability of the realisation of that dream is depending on such things as e.g. the price.
Some people might sympathize, others might point and laugh thinking "haha, your problem"

I wasn't accusing anybody, I was not making any assumptions about what it might cost, I wasn't whining, I wasn't pointing fingers.

If I didn't think RED was capable of making great products (and trying their best to do so) I wouldn't be here. The beginning of the discussion was merely a reaction to the first "half official" statement of Jim that the price of the Fixed Scarlet might have changed.

I agree that "screwed" is not a term that applies here :) I never used it.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

people need to understand.. that since last year, when your dollar was worth 75 cents.. its now basically worth 45 cents.. and by jan, it might be worth 25 cents..

[Jon B.]

Subject to change people. I don't get the expectation. Jim actually communicates to us. You won't find this in other places. Go to Apple and see if Steve Jobs will actually comment on what you think is fair pricing or practices. You will get a representative who probably lives down the street from you. Although this is apples and oranges it works as an example.

I hate to add to this thread but it seems so simple: Things are subject to change, expect it and you won't be DISAPPOINTED.

I would say yes, there is a give and take with the way RED works. There should be a forum for bitching and speculating. If you don't like it, start your own camera company.

[Ethan Cooper]

My guess is that those who are worried most about a price increase are in the group who were only interested in the fixed lens Scarlet. That's the group who had the least amount to put into a camera system anyway and might be forced to jump ship to a DSLR for their needs/wants. I don't think losing out on the lowest end of their market is going to hurt Red that much.

Now if Red alienated the entire s35 scarlet crowd then yeah, they'd have a problem but I think that tier can better absorb a price hike.

If Red can't deliver on their 3k for $3k prediction then oh well, it's a little bit of a black eye since they were the ones who put that out there to begin with but the $3k market never was going to keep Red in business anyway. They're a digital cinema company and somehow I don't see $3,000 bucks and high end digital cinema going hand in hand.

[DRappazzo]

Subject to change people. I don't get the expectation. Jim actually communicates to us. You won't find this in other places. Go to Apple and see if Steve Jobs will actually comment on what you think is fair pricing or practices. You will get a representative who probably lives down the street from you. Although this is apples and oranges it works as an example.

I hate to add to this thread but it seems so simple: Things are subject to change, expect it and you won't be DISAPPOINTED.

I would say yes, there is a give and take with the way RED works. There should be a forum for bitching and speculating. If you don't like it, start your own camera company.

Could not have said it better myself. I have never known another company in my life that is as open and willing to listen to customers as Red is. Kudos, Jim and the whole Red team for being so ahead of the pack.

Regardless of the price, I can't wait to see what they have done. Whether or not I can afford to buy one of my own ( most likely not since I am poor ) is a whole other story and does nothing to deter my anticipation to see whats coming.

[Stephen Grubb]

Now if Red alienated the entire s35 scarlet crowd then yeah, they'd have a problem but I think that tier can better absorb a price hike.

Ethan, I take it you're in the market for a s35 then?

[Thomas Mark Schaefer]

I've acted frugally in every major purchase I've made, carefully balancing price and opportunity cost against features and values. As a result, I have some money to spend on Scarlet. I've been waiting and saving long enough and beautiful events have passed into memory or are preserved only in HDV format. Choose 2 of 3: Quality, Price, Schedule. I'll take Quality and Schedule at this point.

[Steven Caesare]

(From the "Incredible" thread:)


I'm sorry Jim but every time you say/write something like that I really, really want to believe you. And I do, at least I try to. But in the back of my head I have Jim Cameron reassureing that his new film will have CGI you'd never imagine... you probably know the rest.

Anyway. I hope you're right. Or that this is some sort of sales technic. Well, good Carma to you and the rest of the gang for making a dream, that hopefully will come true.

SHUUUuuut UP!

That is all.

-sc

[Ethan Cooper]

Ethan, I take it you're in the market for a s35 then?

Actually I'm in the fixed market, I'm just trying to make reasoned arguments based on my observations.

The s35 market is the real entry level market to the Scarlet system in my opinion since that group is fully expecting to drop some money on modules and additional goodies for their cameras. If the price goes up for them, they'll just adjust their budget and either shell out more cash for the stuff they were planning on getting or drop an add-on or two to afford a working rig without a couple bells and whistles. They're better positioned to absorb a price hike (if there is one).

The fixed lens crowd doesn't have the resources to lay out that kind of cash and therefore any price increase will greatly impact their ability to buy a camera. They never really had much of a budget to begin with.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I somewhat agree, Ethan. However, there's a huge market for the fixed lens model for ENG / EFP use. I know several companies looking to pick up a number of the fixed lens Scarlets for a variety of uses.

That said, a huge portion of the market for the 2/3" models are the hobbyists and independent, aspiring filmmakers. Like you say, they don't have much budget to begin with. The last pricing updates we had back in December or about then listed the 2/3" fixed lens as having a ready-to-shoot kit for about $3750. That would be an excellent price point and I know a lot of people are counting on something to be useable for about that price.

I think it's safe to say that pricing will indeed change. But at this point, there is no indication of whether the price is going up or going down. All the panic and despair is not warranted. I'm almost willing to bet that with the current economic situation, RED slowing down their development schedule a few months back and all the anticipation, that there's a real possibility the price could go down.

Hopefully we find out soon. But I think it's all a bit too early to panic over the 2/3" Scarlet models. The EPIC-X, and EPIC / Scarlet S35 are coming out first anyway. Unless that has somehow changed too.

[Felix K.]

I somewhat agree, Ethan. However, there's a huge market for the fixed lens model for ENG / EFP use. I know several companies looking to pick up a number of the fixed lens Scarlets for a variety of uses.

That said, a huge portion of the market for the 2/3" models are the hobbyists and independent, aspiring filmmakers. Like you say, they don't have much budget to begin with. The last pricing updates we had back in December or about then listed the 2/3" fixed lens as having a ready-to-shoot kit for about $3750. That would be an excellent price point and I know a lot of people are counting on something to be useable for about that price.

I think it's safe to say that pricing will indeed change. But at this point, there is no indication of whether the price is going up or going down. All the panic and despair is not warranted. I'm almost willing to bet that with the current economic situation, RED slowing down their development schedule a few months back and all the anticipation, that there's a real possibility the price could go down.

Hopefully we find out soon. But I think it's all a bit too early to panic over the 2/3" Scarlet models. The EPIC-X, and EPIC / Scarlet S35 are coming out first anyway. Unless that has somehow changed too.

Thank you.

And a certain amount of concern is kind of human. Boys and their toys. So can we close this?
:closed2ur0:

[Joseph Hutson]

Thank you.

And a certain amount of concern is kind of human. Boys and their toys. So can we close this?
:closed2ur0:

Not until we can talk Jim into changing his policy back to the original way of doing things. :001_tt2:

[Gavin Greenwalt]

There should be a forum for bitching and speculating. If you don't like it, start your own camera company.

Haha... they should be glad it's only a forum. I sit on an IRC channel with the developers for some software I use extensively and they get to hear my whining in real time. :D

[Felix K.]

Not until we can talk Jim into changing his policy back to the original way of doing things. :001_tt2:

Making sunglasses?

I hope not!!

:)

[Vince K]

sunglasses that shoot in 5k???? :blush:

[Ethan Cooper]

sunglasses that shoot in 5k???? :blush:

more like sunglasses that set you back $5k

[J. P. Sendall]

Sorry to change the subject a bit but staying on course with the new cameras if I am planning some run and gun on the streets using only streetlights for night shooting will I only need the Scarlet or am I looking at the Epic for greater latitude and minimal noise? I heard some people had problems with the Red One (that has probably been partially or even fully resolved by now with the software upgrade) for night shoots.

This is for a possible film out AND 4K digital projection.

[Häakon]

if I am planning some run and gun on the streets using only streetlights for night shooting will I only need the Scarlet or am I looking at the Epic for greater latitude and minimal noise?
Both cameras use the Mysterium-X sensor, so you don't get better latitude/noise performance from Epic over Scarlet. The biggest main difference between the two cameras are the available framerate options.

There is a more advanced sensor they're calling "Monstro" that will offer better image quality characteristics, but that won't come out for awhile. It is also available for both Scarlet and Epic brains.

[Ameer Azari]

I am planning some run and gun on the streets...

Don't people get arrested for that? :gun:

[Adion Allain]

Steven... there is a point of truth to your last comment. As soon as someone says we are "screwing them", I have to think that something is very wrong with our approach. "Screwing" anyone is the furthest thing away from our intent. If too many people don't like the program, we definitely need to re-think the presentation. Clam up came to mind.

There was no marketing plan when we started this company. It evolved. Posting and listening just happened. It seemed to make sense and seemed to work. But as "everything changes"... so can our presentation. Just need to know whether to talk out loud during the process with people realizing the need to change and adapt as things move along, or do it the old fashion way. You all get to choose.

Jim

DO NOT CLAM UP! Your approach is refreshing and useful in this day and age. The ones that complain Jim are talking out of their arses and shouldn't be heard.

IMHO... of course.

Keep the dream machine rolling! Loving this sweet sexy machine.

With Great Respect,
Adion

[Jun-Dai]

Interesting, but irrelevant. I'm measuring against what Red originally specced. Microsoft (as well as others) has crushed competition by overpromising. Sadly, it invariably underdelivers.

I'm not really sure why you consider it irrelevant. If anything, the comparison to the original hype is largely irrelevant (unless you're actually suggesting that Red is using hype as some sort of below the belt technique to, er, "crush" their competition). How the final Scarlet compares to what's out there now is going to be the only thing that really matters. Three years from now, hardly anyone will even remember what the original Scarlet idea was, but they will remember what Red managed to launch.


It was never pocketable. But if you're saying Red has abandoned a relatively full-featured, out-of-the-box complete low-end model, I hope that remains to be seen.

Wasn't the idea for the original Scarlet that it would be small enough to fit in your pocket? I remember there being a lot of guesswork around what sort of pocket they had in mind.

Anyways, I think my biggest gripe with your complaints here (and I'm not really a fan of some of the sycophancy here either) is that you're not really suggesting a good alternative. Should Red simply have avoided telling us about what they were working on? It doesn't seem like anybody wins in that case. I mean, I suppose they could have come on a little less strong with their proposed Scarlet (i.e., "here's what we're thinking…" versus "this is what we're going to do, but this is all subject to change"), but at that point I really see it as splitting hairs.

You speak about this as though Red has a pattern of disappointment and has only been winning customers through hype rather than delivering real, valuable products. On the contrary, all the other companies go through the same process of working things out and sometimes taking things back to the drawing board (especially when they're not just pushing out incremental improvements, which is what they do most of the time)—Red's only significant difference here is that they've included us in the process.

I'm eager to see what Red *does* come out with, and if Scarlet is bumped up further in price, then I'm curious whether Red ever does plan to serve the under $3k market (the potential volume of demand in the $500-3k market must be enormous, especially given the current options).

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Steven... there is a point of truth to your last comment. As soon as someone says we are "screwing them", I have to think that something is very wrong with our approach. "Screwing" anyone is the furthest thing away from our intent. If too many people don't like the program, we definitely need to re-think the presentation. Clam up came to mind.

There was no marketing plan when we started this company. It evolved. Posting and listening just happened. It seemed to make sense and seemed to work. But as "everything changes"... so can our presentation. Just need to know whether to talk out loud during the process with people realizing the need to change and adapt as things move along, or do it the old fashion way. You all get to choose.

Jim

Jim...

People only whine because you make things look easy.

:001_cool:

[Christian Edwards]

I think it's hilarious. :violin:

Although I have no idea what FUD means.


FearUncertaintyDoubt

moreover : Fucked Up Dialogue

[Gunleik Groven]

Steven... there is a point of truth to your last comment. As soon as someone says we are "screwing them", I have to think that something is very wrong with our approach. "Screwing" anyone is the furthest thing away from our intent. If too many people don't like the program, we definitely need to re-think the presentation. Clam up came to mind.

There was no marketing plan when we started this company. It evolved. Posting and listening just happened. It seemed to make sense and seemed to work. But as "everything changes"... so can our presentation. Just need to know whether to talk out loud during the process with people realizing the need to change and adapt as things move along, or do it the old fashion way. You all get to choose.

Jim


This has been a development in the making since the first cameras were delivered. Going from a couple of hundred geeky dreamers, to a some 1000s users + people weighing in on their multitude of camera options and unfamiliarity with the constant changing and concept of being a paying beta-tester - has created a different mood on the board.

it is easy to miss the "good old days"

On the other hand, it's even easier just to grab my cam and go and shoot some...


Cheers and thanks!

[David Rasberry]

I love the openness and interaction with RED team members including RED LEADER on these forums. Don't stop please!

[Quentin Brown]

Steven... there is a point of truth to your last comment. As soon as someone says we are "screwing them", I have to think that something is very wrong with our approach. "Screwing" anyone is the furthest thing away from our intent. If too many people don't like the program, we definitely need to re-think the presentation. Clam up came to mind.

There was no marketing plan when we started this company. It evolved. Posting and listening just happened. It seemed to make sense and seemed to work. But as "everything changes"... so can our presentation. Just need to know whether to talk out loud during the process with people realizing the need to change and adapt as things move along, or do it the old fashion way. You all get to choose.

Jim

Jim, I'm sure you know not to take this "getting screwed" comment too much to heart.
There are a lot of deep held dreams and aspirations by those who have been taken with the idea of the new cameras you are developing. Many have (perhaps mistakenly) placed their aspirations for future legendary film making careers on being able to afford the cameras that you put out a spec/price for some time ago. When they get a sniff that suggests that their dream may not become a realty they can feel very disappointed and this can turn to anger. I'm sure it is an emotional thing for you too, as you are clearly passionate about developing these dream cams that will change the world of cinema. Dreams can often be extremely painful things to get stepped on. We all try to be adults but we still have feelings we struggle to keep in check.
I really like the openness, the willingness to get feedback and interact with customers during development. It is refreshing and I'm sure it's valuable to yourselves even if it just keeps the pot boiling for your future customers and gives you good feedback on the interest out there though I'm sure it's more than that.
I'm sure the format could improve slightly though. Successive refinements along the way are usually necessary when breaking new ground, I'm sure that applies to this new process of open development you are pioneering. Just don't pull anyone off the Scarlet and Epic development team to refine it right now - we are all salivating and chomping at the bit for our shiny new RED super-cameras.:wink5:

That said I'll share some of my experiences and make a few suggestions.

Firstly, announcements:
My lasting impression is that announcements are currently phrased in such a way that it drags the reader in two directions. I will have to check over some announcements to confirm this but I recall that most announcements appear to state that this is what you will be building and selling, "... very exiting thing...at very exciting price point" and then afterwards you state that this is subject to change and almost definitely will. Now some people can read those two statements and come to a balanced perspective on what has been announced for others it's difficult because if they are excited about the announcement it pulls them one way emotionally and then the second statement tries to pull them back from that by saying don't believe in what I just said. Most people like to be excited and enthused so they don't want to hear the second statement and can subconsciously skate over it. Also posting announcements on a forum without any suggestions for what comment people can make or you would like is like inviting the devil in through your front door.
Perhaps you could change the way you make the announcements to more clearly reflect their nature as a plan rather than a statement of fact. e.g. This is our idea, we plan to make something like this a reality and we think and hope that we can do it for this much money. We will aim for these target price-points. What is your take on this idea?
This may go against the grain of your passionate, can do, go getter attitudes at RED but it may well lead to more balanced response from site visitors and posters.

Secondly, The Forums:
I expect that many people hear about red, can't find much deep info on the planned up and coming products and wind up on the forums looking for more, just like I did. It is very difficult to find the full story on anything in the forums and often you wind up reading stuff that has wound up sounding like reports of your announcements but is actually based on others conjecture. Some other kind of format might work better for the announcements. Perhaps news stories with an option for comments. That way news stories could be in an aggregated feed and everyone could be learning from official posts rather than tidbits and second hand conjecture. Changes and additions to announcements should also somehow be part of this official aggregated space but how to do this I'm not sure. If you edit the original post many comments would become obsolete, but you don't want to blanket delete them all and moderation might be a real pain.
Still forums are a good place for discussion. News stories/blogs are a good place for announcements or feeding us tidbits and if you want feedback then you can enable comments, perhaps limited to a single editable comment per user so that it doesn't turn into a multi-threaded discussion that goes off topic.

As usual I'm writing this late after spending way too much time reading these forums in excited anticipation of the upcoming cameras, to fuel a career that might not happen and which is not dependent on them anyway ( I know I need to be sure I know my craft, have the talent required and have some experience before it's even appropriate to put my money into one of these). It all still gets to me though ( I want one anyway and then I'm going to be brilliant :wink5:) and I'm so emotionally wrapped up in knots that I'm not sure if what I said makes any sense. I hope it does. I hope I haven't just added to the off topic confusion of these forums. If I have I guess I'm a case in point.

Anyway, any others with constructive thoughts on improving the interaction process with RED?

Perhaps in a new thread?

[Quentin Brown]

Shoot, that was a long post I made, sorry guys.
:jacked: :emote_couch: :Angel_anim:

[Peter Franzen]

Anyway, any others with constructive thoughts on improving the interaction process with RED?I generally agree with your post. I applaud RED for their openness and the lengths that they go to to communicate with the users (and future users!), but I also think that the release of actual information regarding the cameras could be improved.

I know that it isn't exactly original, but I think that a blog format would be better than posting tidbits in the middle of forum threads with 1,000+ responses; let people comment on that (better yet-- let the comments link straight here to the forums), but try to keep the released information in one central place.

It's got to be a difficult job to decide when and how much info to leak out, and I'm sure everyone on the RED team is aware of the pressure to avoid disappointing the user base and deliver on their promises (yes, even taking into account the whole "Specs change-- count on it" philosophy). There are always going to be throngs of people whining, complaining, and generally bitching about specs/prices/info, and I they should be generally ignored and not catered to; for the rest of us though, I think a bit more formality is in order for the information releases.

[Roberto Lequeux]

The first one is the one that fits, but if you want to laugh go straight to 2:30
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2709967/crazys_top_10_freak_out/

[Richard Numeroff]

Please Jim, don't get dragged down by the compulsive expect to get everything for nothing crowd... it's a generational thing... horrible... but we have to stay calm...