Buy a R1 or wait for SCARLET/EPIC

[Stefan Nickl]

Hi guys,

in february 2010 we would like to start shooting a movie with a RED camera in 4K. Because the project will take 1 - 1 1/2 years we decided to buy it instead of renting it.

Is the R1 becoming a phase-out model? I`m afraid of spending all that beautiful money while there could be released a much cheaper scarlet that could make the same or better pictures using a new chip and higher bitrates.

I have to decide in the next weeks, because shipping to germany takes time and our camera-guy needs some time for training.

What do you think?

Stefan

[Ariel Weiss]

It depends on wether you need scarlet or epic. With epic you get full refund to r1 body so there is no downside. with scarlet you get 12% disccount so its better if you want them both. Check your project needs. If high frame rate is not needed (slow motion) I assume the s35 scarlet will be more than enough, and much cheaper than r1 today.

[Martin Weiss]

If you want an Epic, get the R1 now - you'll get a full refund for your R1 and some extras. If there has ever been a No Brainer, this is the one.

If you want a Scarlet, wait til the end of October, when more details will be publicized.

If you are not sure, you have to gamble between waiting til the end of October (and hoping that the cut-off for the generous trade-in won't be immedeate.) and just buying a R1 now - with the risk of losing a bit of money down the road - but then again, you will get an Epic-X for $10.000, and thus the R1 should hold its value quite nicely. Plus, the more hands-on experience your "camera-guy" gets, the better for the end product; R3D Raw is quite a learning curve, but man, you get awesome results if treated properly.

Edit: Ariel beat me to it while I was typing away. Nice last name, btw :)

Edit2: Jannard has in the meantime said that the cutoff date for the R-1 trade-in will be later than oct 30th.

[PatC]

Martin and Ariel said it right.

Even if everything gets upgraded to other cameras scarlet, epic, with whatever sensor. The R1 does not all of a sudden become a bad camera. It is still a great camera that you can shoot your whole feature with and have wonderful images out of.

If the timeline necessitates you shooting sooner than these cameras are released and currently there are no set dates, than get an R1 and shoot the whole film on that.

The new cameras are going to be amazing, but the r1 is amazing as well.

[Stefan Nickl]

Thanks to PatC and the "Weiss Bros"! ;-)

So I think I should wait for red announcing the release dates before I start any action.

If RED will announce them in the end of october - how reliable is RED concerning those delivery dates?
Do you expect a comparable number of bugs as the R1 was said to have had at its release? I know, it`s guesswork(?), but I`m not really experienced in RED products and reliability of the RED company.

Thank you for every opinion.

[Frank Cueto]

how reliable is RED concerning those delivery dates?

Thank you for every opinion.


Are you kidding? :skep:

-Frank

[Tom.Wong]

my advice would be get what's out when you need it, there will always be a way to upgrade, sell, and etc. when you need to. Red themselves claim that their release dates are never certain, and it's even in their slogan now, the camera will come out the day you see that back thread/sticky going SCARLET AND EPIC IS OUT. and that's the day. i wouldn't go too crazy over what camera can give me this resolution and all that. Pat is right, no matter what you get from Red, it's gonna give you the stunning image you want, and remember, new cameras comes with new workflow, sometimes sticking with what currently works for a little while can be a huge benefit. A lot of people will be sorting out epic and scarlet workflow, with new bitrates, storage standards, accessories, and firmware bugs. Do you really want to start a year long project with a non field tested camera? those are the questions you need to ask yourself rather than "which will look prettier" you'll trap yourself that way.

[KETCH ROSSi]

BUY THE R1 AS SOON AS YOU CAN!!

Then upgrade to the Epic_X when you can, I'm sure that RED will give i off time to all R1 Owners a fair amount of time to make good on their trade in for an Epic.

I'm basting my A%$#@$# with a new "Executive Summary" to raise funds for the reopening of my studio, and acquire 10 R1 asap, so trust my advice and get you self an R1, you will not regretted, believe me.

[Stefan Nickl]

@Frank and Tom: What I wanted to ask about reliability - when RED announces that a product is available, is it really available for many customers at that time or do I have to expect a long time for delivery?

I`m sorry but I prefer asking stupid questions instead of making stupid (and expensive) mistakes.

Okay - I`ll wait til the end of the year and if there is no fully tested epic on the market (which is not that realistic ...) I`ll buy the R1.


Thank you all!

[Tom.Wong]

well that's all guess work at this point. Red is def in a LOT better shape then they were when they first came out. They had limited production lines, everything was pretty much made to order. Nobody knows what their production line will be like when epic and scarlet comes out except for RED. they could be doing mass production as we speak and just keeping it a whisper cause they don't wanna get people overally excited until things are right. They could be making them to order again.

I remember when r1 first came out it was back ordered for months, wait time was pretty long, and it's taken till now to get most of the kinks out, and it's still not 100%. remember, the camera is technically speaking ALWAYS in beta. there is no "finished" version of it that comes out cookie cutter, every camera responds differently. you can have 4 bodies just come out of the factory and each one will have different boot times.

So expectations should be, when epic/scarlet comes out, wait time will be long cause a lot of ppl are itching to get them already, and original r1 owners have priority first and foremost. (super lucky if they crank out like 10 thousand of them right away)

and field testing would probably be 6 months or more to figure out most of the camera, maybe shorter since they have a great baseline with r1 now, but post production always has a much longer lag in progress than cameras. FCP will have to update, Avid will have to update, all third party software has to update, etc etc. it may feel like a few changes to accommodate higher bitrate and larger resolution should be easy but it's never that simple. if u want to make a comparison.

so everything SHOULD happen faster and better than r1 did, but it's all still a process, and i know since ur project is going so long that by the end of it everything will probably be up to date, but if you want a real workflow you'd want to be taking your drives to post as they fill, so when u reach end point most of the leg work is done already.

it's a lot to think about, especially when new cameras are on the horizon and it's incredibly enticing. so it's all about what's more important to you, higher assurance of a smooth beginning to end process of pre pro, shooting, post pro, and finishing.

or leap forward and take your chances and see all the amazing things these new cameras can do for you, but having a lower chance of what's there prior mentioned.

pros in cons to everything, it's about what you NEED the most, set aside hype, go with what makes most sense.

either way i think you'll be fine. there are ways to work through anything, it's just resolve, quick thinking, and always expecting the worst and hoping for the best.

good luck!

[Stefan Nickl]

@Tom: Thank you for your time and your estimation! That`s what I wanted to get.
Especially the aspect of necessary updates in post-programs is something I have not being thinking of. When the big project will be started everything must work.

So I guess it will be a decision for R1.

[Raphael Varandas]

100% agreed Ketch!
I did it.

Go for your R1!!


Best Regards

[Kevin G]

Tom. Wong you are right on point!

[Karl H]

Remember you'll need all the accessories too the R1 doesn't work on it's own; but there will be a whole new line-up of accessories coming out with Epic and you won't get trade-in for your old items.

So for example you'll need to buy batteries/chargers/evf and maybe LCD. Which while they will all work with epic when it's released, they will not fit the new modular scheme in the same way the new accessories will.

That's something significant to factor in I think. Perhaps you could buy the R1 but rent the accessories?

[Martin Weiss]

Karl,

In that case I would get a couple of batteries (which aren't really that costly; have a look at Globalmediapro), which you can use for other purposes once the Epic is in your hands. E.g. CoolLights LEDs, or if you need longer runs on your Epic.

The 7" LCD is gorgeous, and will definately be useful on an Epic as well. If you are unsure, you also might get a used 5.6" LCD from someone on this forum (they pop up quite frequently) and then get a Bomb EVF once they become available. The 5.6" can then be used as secondary monitor for the AC.

[JosephArthur]

Karl,
Your right. That is why I am holding off on a few of the minor purchases. I got my new Red last week or so. So alot of the gear I do use now with the current camera I shoot with (Red #21) will use alot of the same gear. Like the Satcher Tripod (but getting the Action Cam), getting a whole new set of Primes.

Also (if someone can answer my question) I am migrating from larger rods to the smaller size that folks in hollywood seem to be using more than here in Northern California. (Why is that?)

[michael zaletel]

The problem will most likely be availability of components and add-ons for Scarlet and EPIC. It's going to be much easier to buy everything necessary to build a production-ready RED ONE setup than to build a production ready EPIC or SCARLET and that's assuming you are already early in the line. If not, go RED.

-michael zaletel