Underwater Shooters Only

[Mark Thorpe]

Trying to get some ideas of who here will be dunking their RED.

As we know Gates thus far (I think) is the only company looking to make an underwater housing for RED, others may / will follow suit as and when RED materializes.

If wet shooters wanna get together and discuss housing requirements and lens options that would then allow us to send that feedback to Gates in order that they understand our needs. The only problem I can see at the moment is that we are lacking true understanding of what controls we will have access to on the exterior of RED. I would assume that they will allow for all the regular features any camera would have as manual controls but RED TEAM are doing something radical here so I can't take anything for granted.

Hold on, a manufacturing company that welcomes future client feedback as a ways to settle on the final product design......Jim, you've started a precedent.

Anyway, if anyone is seriously looking to get RED wet then please just post a quick note here and we can look at getting started with some brainstorming.

Cheers,
Mark.
P.S Be easy with me guys, I'm stepping out of the horribly compressed world of Sony HDV and as such am still getting my head around this whole format.

[Cam McGrath]

Hey Mark,
I too will be looking to take my RED u/w down the track. I haven't really begun thinking seriously about housing it yet, but anytime is a good time to start!

I agree that we lack the knowledge re: controls...maybe the RED team could share the remote control protocol/connector type info early in the piece with Gates to get the ball rolling there? I'm not sure about you but I prefer to use a housing with manual controls and this obviously poses an 'early' design problem.

The other option is to get one custom built once you have the camera. There are a few manufacturers here in Australia that'll do that. I know one guy who will build a custom housing from Carbon Fibre...excellent for surfing, shallow water use and a bulletproof rain cover for those of us that live in the tropics and like to shoot in the accompanying weather!

Loving the way this project is being handled too! Thanks for the revolution Team RED :)

Cheers,

Cam McGrath

[Mike Devlin]

Good to have this thread.

Anyone else besides Gates commited to delivering a housing yet?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I might submerge mine at some point... Why I started that thread about RED and underwater housings a couple weeks ago -- turned up a couple possibilities. Anyway, I'm sure Mark will get there before me - lower # and this is all he plans to do. :) I'll be interested to see how this all works out.

And Yes, it looks like there's one other company besides Gates for sure - AquaVideo. They have RED #206.

[Steve Gibby]

I have water housings custom made for most of my cameras - not for diving, but for shallow water shooting of water sports (surfing, etc.) and nature. They're usually aluminum, with waterproof throughputs for controls, and a wide angle port. They're lightweight and two handled, although with smaller cameras some of them have been one handled, with a pistol grip. I use custom safety leashes for them in case I get separated from the housing grips by waves, etc. My rig for that type of shooting will be: custom lightweight housing, RED battery, Nikkor wide angle prime (and possibly changeable to a second port and a Nikkor 17-35 zoom), and RED Flash. The entire rig should weigh in the neighborhood of 11 or 12 pounds - easy too swim with and raise out of the water. The same rig may function as a protective housing for the camera that can be strapped onto planes, cars, and other places I need to get POV shots from.

[Jason Sturgis]

I am also thinking about dunking my Red camera. This will probably be a ways off but I like how you guys are getting the ball rolling early. I would think that the basic controls on the housing will be a must and then deciding which lense would be most commonly used. But I am sure the Red is going to be able to shoot some amazing stuff(assuming we are pointing it in the right direction).

[Mark Thorpe]

filmnorth, it could also be a possibility that third party manufacturers could be privvy to information pertaining to RED far and beyond that which we are currently aware of. I hope that could be a possibility otherwise it could be some time before we get to dive RED. The idea of custom built housings which will be strong enough for pro filming applications (able to withstand up to 15atm ambient pressure) will be prohibitively expensive. I contacted a manufacturer a while back and just to make a casing for a 7" monitor was quoted $15k. I also asked for a quote to house a FireStore F100, again $15k. So whilst it may sound easy to do it is massively expensive. Better to try and get the main manufacturers to listen to our needs pre-design and then pass all of the info to them with the hope they will listen, after all it is we who will be buying their products.

I think the main idea here is to try and see what points we wish Gates (or any other manufacturer, not wanting to sound biased) to include in their unit and from there submit that to them for their considerations.

I for one would like to see a viewing pane with sunshade for the hi rez LCD (something similar to the Amphibico Phenom housing for the FX1/Z1) They also made a prism so that the user is not crouched over the housing therefore reducing their peripheral vision.

I would imagine all of the basic features for the camera will be included in Gates (or whoever) traditional manual operating design (much preferred over electronic anyday) I haven't seen it posted anywhere except in the focus assist threads so I imagine RED has some kind of expanded focus feature (similar to the HDV models.....OK shoot me down if you want) so the obvious control for accessing that.

Will we have access, need to access, the set up menus etc? We will have access to a Histogram too so there could also be the option for two screens? How is the histogram screen presented on RED? As a separate option to fill the LCD or as an overlay on the image? If its an option to fill the LCD could that signal then be sent to a secondary LCD to show continual histogram etc? All just thoughts but things I think could be important to know.

Lenses - The big debate. I'm currently looking at using Nikkor Glass but could be swayed if anyone thinks there is a standard one off Cine lens that will cover all eventualities. Bearing in mind that I do a lot of extreme macro shoots, nudibranchs, shrimp, coral details (polyps etc) as well as the wide end which needs to be minimal of 94 degrees IMHO.

Thoughts,
Mark.

[Stuart English]

What lenses you will be shooting is underwater is a key question if you have an opinion to share on that.

Will you shoot S16mm or 35mm lens format - 2K at 60fps or 4K at 24fps ?

[Mark Thorpe]

Hi Stuart,
Nice to see you join the debate.

This is the big question and one I believe one that can only be answered by the differing individuals looking to take RED underwater. I for one will not be able to go 4K straight out of the bag with RED. I'm selling most non-required body parts as it is just to get RED with some left over for lenses and the immediate wet environment enclosure requirements. Absolute max for me is going to be S16 lenses to go 2K @ 60fps. Gates have said that they will definitely be making housing options for the 18-85mm Zoom but thats a long wait before that comes about. The 300mm is way too long a lens for underwater so I'm looking around.

Keeping up to speed on Evin's great lens evaluations seeing as I have a D200 with a small selection of glass for that. I've also taken a look at the Fujinon HA 10x5.2BERD lens after Mike (Devlin) pointed that out but that's a $25k piece of glass and way out of my league at the moment.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Stokestack]

I'd think that electronic control of the camera might afford the opportunity to build a less-expensive housing, by reducing or eliminating the need for levers through the housing itself, and isolating the camera in a simpler, more secure compartment that's compromised by only one connector and the back hatch.

My experience is limited to the usual Ikelite affair. I guess there's no hope for a truly "affordable" Red housing, given the necessity to have a motor and gear assembly to focus. And if you're talking zoom, that's another assembly.

Come to think of it, if that lens-controlling hardware is needed, why not make it modular and removable from the housing so you can use it for other things?

Being able to use the LCD monitor is a must. Trying to peer into a tiny viewfinder to compose and focus while maintaining buoyancy and position is a giant pain in the ass.

I plan to shoot 35mm format at all times (unless I need more than 60 FPS someday). If I were picking a lens for underwater, I'd start with a 20 or 24. Probably shoot down-sampled 2K or even 1080P to maximize recording time and minimize the opening-up of the housing to swap media.

Hmm, a separate compartment for batteries and media would be nice too. Anything to minimize risk to the camera itself. On a dive a few months ago, a friend of mine didn't realize the danger posed by a single grain of sand on the O-ring, and by the end of our last dive we had water rolling around under the camera in the housing. There was no harm done, but it'd be nice to seal the camera in once on dry land and not open it up until you're back on said land. A modular electronic camera gives us that possibility; why not take advantage of it?

[Mark Thorpe]

Stokestack,
Having control of the camera via traversing bulkhead levers is an absolute must, no point paying for a housing if you don't have the max control over the camera it houses. Conditions change, clouds effect ambient light so to be able to access the lens is obvious, unless I can only shoot on sunny days but I guess that's not an option. These controls are best IMHO to be left as manual affairs unless of course the individual shooter is going to commission a, costly, lens extension tube from their housing manufacturer.

Shoots using RED will not entail swimming along a reef hoping to film whatever comes along. I have a tripod specifically designed and built by Gates for underwater work. It remains to be seen if it will support the greater weight of the RED housing compared to the Z1 housing it was designed for. Sequences will be carefully planned out as they would be for any production shoot and then attempted until realized.

Having three or four compartments just adds cost and weight to the whole configuration, not to mention the increased risk of things flooding. Best to have one compartment, other than the external monitor for example, and take time on the pre dive rig prep to avoid leaky O'rings.

Regarding O'rings, I don't grease mine at all. Silicone only attracts dust, sand and hairs etc. A good clean and check before I put them down the first time, without the camera inside, and thats it. If it doesn't leak I leave it in place and don't touch. I had a VX1000 in a Sealux housing for 3 years and never greased any of the Orings even though I had the housing open pretty much every day.

Cheers,
Mark.
P.S Electronics tend to fail. I'd hate to have that happen when I'm in the armpit of the world filming obscure pond life and for that to put a halt on production. Best for me is manual so I can fix the problem and continue filming.

[Nick Shaw]

Probably shoot down-sampled 2K or even 1080P to maximize recording time

I would expect that 2k or 1080p RGB would not give significantly larger recording times than 4k REDCODE RAW. In fact you might even get less time! Don't forget RAW is one channel, but RGB is three.

According to Mike Curtis' speculations about recording times (http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/12/mikes-conjecture-on-redcode-data-rates.html) 2k RAW seems the most disk space efficient. I know you want to shoot full 35mm, but if disk storage space is an issue, 2k RAW is a compromise well worth considering.

Nick

[Mark Thorpe]

I guess all we can do is speculate at the moment. I for one will be initially held back due to budgeting so won't be able to go flat out 4K at the outset. I think the first couple of months feedback from those who get their RED as part of the first batch will be doing us all a great service by posting all of their findings here.

This is gonna be one busy web site when that happens.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Stokestack]

Having control of the camera via traversing bulkhead levers is an absolute must, no point paying for a housing if you don't have the max control over the camera it houses.

Did someone suggest not having full control? And how do you spin focusing rings with a lever?


Shoots using RED will not entail swimming along a reef hoping to film whatever comes along.

Maybe yours won't, but I've never had much luck getting eels and lobsters to show up at pre-production meetings.


I have a tripod specifically designed and built by Gates for underwater work. It remains to be seen if it will support the greater weight of the RED housing

Weight? The camera and housing should be barely negatively buoyant.


Having three or four compartments just adds cost and weight to the whole configuration, not to mention the increased risk of things flooding.

Opening and closing a compartment repeatedly, especially in adverse conditions, increases risk. Thus the idea of sealing the camera in once, and putting the oft-replaced articles like batteries and media in one separate compartment. As you pointed out:

"If it doesn't leak I leave it in place and don't touch."

Exactly the idea.

[Mark Thorpe]

Lever, Control, Focus Knob......call it what you will. I didn't specify exact terminology for each physical control thinking that any reader would understand the point I was raising, guess not.

"Maybe yours won't, but I've never had much luck getting eels and lobsters to show up at pre-production meetings".

Have you ever worked on a professional underwater shoot? Its not recreational diving. Its work. Like any natural history endeavor the shooter positions and sets the stage and then waits, and waits, and waits for his subject. If that means "camping" outside the hole of a Blenny to get footage of the excavation work of the symbiotic Blind Shrimp then thats what you have to do. I'd love to see how fast you get your shot list together by swimming up and down the reef. Lighting for big sets is normally surface supplied so your range is again limited by the length of the cables etc. Stealth is often your best bet.

Again for most smaller cameras, by that I mean upwards to the housed F900, yes it is ideal if they can be slightly negative. Any larger and their size creates other issues with regards to water resistance. There is also only a certain amount of lift you can add to a housing before it becomes too cumbersome. Every tripod, irrespective of its intended environment usage has its limits. RED will be a bigger camera than I have now. The added size and weight of the unit remains to be seen and I am more than expecting to have to remodel my existing tripod to meet those changes. Howard Halls "Island of the Sharks" required three people to move the camera underwater. I doubt he used a tripod suitable for a VX1000!!

I will not be planning to open and close the housing in adverse conditions, period. Once I have my system set up and all dialed in to the format I need I will then spend the day filming to achieve my shot list. Like I said it's not a swim along the reef to see what you can find. Once the Mag is full I will then seek a dry location to change it out. With the design idea I have for that operation it shouldn't be an operation that takes no more than a few seconds, unless there are other considerations for Mag removal and connections with RED.

For your points on focusing etc the LCD on RED will be High Rez, not Hi Def. Composition can be checked and set via that but focus cannot be correctly checked or set with anything other than the viewfinder, and that's the same for any camera.

Time will tell.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Mike the beginner]

For your points on focusing etc the LCD on RED will be High Rez, not Hi Def. Composition can be checked and set via that but focus cannot be correctly checked or set with anything other than the viewfinder, and that's the same for any camera.

Time will tell.

Cheers,
Mark.

Many good points raised guys:)

I too will be using the red one underwater in Scottish rivers and in the sea. CamDiver what rough estimate do you think the price of a Gates housing could come in at?

The LCD along with focus assist might possible be sufficient for focusing? I am a beginner so i know little, but with the LCD having histogram and focus assist built in, it could work quite well....Graeme is likely to know the answer though:D

Would be nice though to have something like a small wireless remote housed in a plastic sealed bag (properly tested) and some kind of device fitted to the lens to allow remote focus.

What lens? That is a real issue since i would like to be able to get more than just underwater use from the lens. I too would like a wide angled lens with macro facility to allow it to be used on land as well as underwater close ups. S35, still lenses, or s16mm. What is best? Would it not be wise to try to capture at 4k thus gaining valuable low light performance in comparision to s16mm for instance. Stock footage at 4k in master for storage might be a possibility perhaps. I dont know but ask the questions anyway.

Ultimately i hope whoever makes the housing will keep the costs down and avoid housings costings like 10k plus.

Michael

[Ken Corben]

As an underwater shooter, I have dreamt of the red cinema revolution solution since the first HDCAM was announced in the late 90's for high definition underwater story telling, but I bought a house instead of a 900 underwater system.

To answer Stuart's query, based on my understanding to date of the RED's capabilities and the television clients' broadcast specs I would say shooting in 2K with perhaps the Canon SC 10x6.6 T2.7-16 zoom super 16 lens is one underwater solution (since the red zoom specs are subject to change). I believe these are $10K+ used. I remember when I was an AC on Renegade we relied heavily on the older Canon 8-64...a solid lens.

Primes are nice but you can't call for a lens change underwater.

I base this underwater setup on the fact that the two major HD clients/buyers at present, Discovery HD and Nat Geo HD, require 1080i and 720p origination and masters respectively.

Housing options are custom or production and I would guess the costs are $15k on up to $30K depending on optics. Lets face it, a domed piece of plexiglass ain't gonna cut it for the mysterium sensor images.

I must say that the Gates Housings have served me well for decades including our 100+ meter dives in Palau. A production model for RED from John Ellerbrock and his talented team at Gates would be my first choice. Limitation of this choice...

The housing is designed around a specific lens and storage device. Benefits of this choice...

Superior optics and the proven success of the Gates mechanical design.

If we all send John an email at Gates Housings: JohnE@GatesHousings.com
maybe he'll take a tip from RED and open up a $1000 refundable deposit for the GATES RED housing - specifications subject to change of course:)

[Mike the beginner]

[QUOTE=sharkguy;7748]


Housing options are custom or production and I would guess the costs are $15k on up to $30K depending on optics. Lets face it, a domed piece of plexiglass ain't gonna cut it for the mysterium sensor images.

The housing is designed around a specific lens and storage device. Benefits of this choice...

- --------------------------------------------------------------------


Well i must say i certainly wont be purchasing any housing no matter how it is built at those costs.

Come on Red (Jim) show these guys how to make a perfectly suitable housing for no more than $7,000 THEN I WILL GLADLY PLACE MY $1,000 RESERVATION

Michael

[Stokestack]

Have you ever worked on a professional underwater shoot? Its not recreational diving.

Nope, and like most people in this forum, I won't necessarily ever do so. Thus my comment about "truly affordable". Remember that this camera and its price range appeal to the one-man-band who wants outstanding image quality. It's not cheap to the layman, but a lot of diving isn't either. Those who can afford to travel the world, charter boats, and pack rebreathers and other kinds of gear may certainly get a Red. With a reliable housing, I would absolutely take the Red on recreational dives.

My original comment focused on ways to reduce the cost and complexity of the housing, not on ways to make it suitable for big-budget filmmaking with a support crew. If I were working on productions like that, why would I be so worried about the cost? Hopefully that clears up the emphasis on simplified compartments, controls, and adverse conditions. I consider anything on a dive boat "adverse conditions." And if the housing can be made substantially cheaper at the cost of a little increased risk of operational problems, so be it. Because many of us will NOT be out there putting scads of production money and crew time at risk.

The price of the Red is what has attracted many of the people in this forum. Lots of them are excited to save money by slapping used Nikon SLR lenses on the thing, so why scoff at those who want to dive with it affordably?

[Mark Thorpe]

Sorry if I came across abrupt mate, no offense intended and I certainly was not scoffing at you. Please don't get the wrong idea of what I am doing here either. I've worked my way up to a satisfactory freelance situation which allows me to base myself in some of the worlds best dive spots. Its a lonely life, no wife, kids, house, mortgage, dog or regular trappings of a 'normal' life. BUT I choose this way of being over anything else. I really do feel that my reason for being here is to do what I do and to share that with others. If that can instill education, foresight and change attitudes with regards to the perils facing our Oceans in current times then I feel I have accomplished my goals. I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, in a favorable position with regards to personal wealth, I just throw what I make back into my work.

Due to hard work and a succession of fortunate project involvements I will be able to take my game to the next level with RED. I'm coming up from the HDV world so whilst I don't profess to being the most technically savvy person with regards to the implications and considerations for the RED workflow I am more than capable and knowledgeable of the concerns and requirements for my filming endeavors past, present and future when it comes to wet environment applications.

For the housing I am sure there will be a few options available once RED starts shipping. Personally I am in for the Gates which will be fully manual, may require additional enclosures for the Hi Rez LCD which remains to be seen, will be watertight to 450fsw and will allow for complete field servicing if required. This will be a full on professional housing and will have a price fixed accordingly. As yet even John Ellerbrook, CEO of Gates can't offer any ballpark figures on pricing yet. As for the lenses to be used I am still trying to work through a minefield of possibilities but will post what I find in due course.

Good luck with your RED endeavors. Let us all know if you find a nice aquatic solution for your diving adventures, I'll be keen to hear how you fare.

Best regards,
Mark.

P.S Mike the Beginner - My current Z1 Housing, with Wide Lens External Adapter (120 Degrees) - 4" External Monitor - Ground Glass Domes for Century 0.8x Wide Lens - Ground Glass Flat Ports - Buoyancy Rig - Tripod and complete accessories for a complete O'ring change and service already comes in at just over $10k. I would imagine the RED housing depending on lens options will also be somewhere around that.

[Steve Gibby]

There is no question that Gates makes some of the best commercially available housings for use down to around 300’. They have a reputation for being well made and dependable. Are they the only water-housing maker? No. There are others, with various level of product use, including Amphibico, Equinox, Ewa-Marine, Ikelite, Light & Motion, Quest, and Sea & Sea. A quick check of large photo/video/film clearing houses, like B&H, will find you an array of housings for different uses, some real cheap (Ewa-Marine), and some real expensive (Gates). Most are designed for specific models of film and video cameras. Depending on their intended use, housings are made out of various materials: aluminum (most Gates), polycarbonate, carbon fiber, PVC plastic, polyurethane, etc.

How many makers will design housings for RED One? Who knows? Time will tell. Demand drives production. If Gates is designing a specific housing for RED One, it will probably be a good housing, but commensurately expensive. There will also probably be some custom options (ports, etc.) offered for Gates housings. Does that mean that no other manufacturers will offer housings for RED One? No. Does everybody who wants to splash their RED One need a $10-20k USD Gates housing? No. There are varying degrees of use needs, depending on frequency of use, depth of dives, etc. For someone like Camdiver who makes his living diveshooting, an elaborate, custom housing makes great sense. For those who will occasionally splash their RED One camera in shallow water, rain, or adverse weather, the needs (and expense) are entirely different.

For some reason this thread is only addressing deep water shooting, as if that’s the only need/way to splash a RED One. Not so. Since the early ‘80’s I’ve been involved with producing, directing, and shooting the in-water sequences of footage featured on action sports and adventure travel programs worldwide, that televise on multiple broadcast and cable networks. The world and regional professional sports tours of surfing, Jetski, wakeboarding, waterskiing, etc. have all required myself and my crews to have film and video cameras in the water. It is a critical camera angle that places the viewer right in the thick of things – essentially a POV shot as if the viewer is a swimmer in the giant waves or action. I’ve personally swam all over the world getting shots for our programs – yeah, in many risky locations (big waves, rivers, etc.). I also have several other world-class in-water shooters that I use. All water housings we used, and currently use, were/are custom housings made of fiberglass, carbon fiber, or aluminum. They have the ports we need for the lenses we use, and the waterproof throughputs for the external controls we need. They’re lightweight housings – but strong and durable. We have never used a stock housing from a manufacturer, and we have never used a housing designed for deep diving. Diving housings are much too heavy and expensive for action sports/adventure travel use. Horses for courses…

Where do we get our housings made? By a custom fabricator in the USA who has been making custom housings for decades. Trade secret. I won’t name him/them because it’s my private source, but if you need a shallow-water custom housing, and do a little research, you’ll find several reputable custom housing makers.

The number of RED One owners/users who deep dive with their cameras will be relatively few. I’d suggest there will be a lot more RED One owners/users who will be interested in a shallow/surface/inclement weather housing for their camera. I think there may be several housing manufacturers who make housings adaptable for that kind of RED One use – demand drives production.

Though I have professional respect for deep water shooters, and hire them for certain sequences in some of my programs, there is a whole different world of in-water professional shooting that is being ignored by this thread – and it’s the world of shallow water, action sports, adventure travel shooting that will be the most realistic way that RED One owners/users will most likely splash their camera into, rather than deep diving, which is a limited specialty use. As soon as the specs are finalized for RED One, and I decide on the lens (or lenses) I’ll use, I’ll have my RED One housing custom fabricated. Since I have one of the first RED One cameras delivered, I’ll undoubtedly be one of the first people in the world to splash a RED One camera - if not the first. I guarantee you the first footage will be 4k REDCODE RAW @30fps and 2k REDCODE RAW @60fps footage in huge waves, in the barrel, with world-class surfers blasting right by the camera.

[Mark Thorpe]

Hey Gibby,
Fantastic address. I admit I am a bit blinkered when it comes to discussing underwater work. I tend to lump everything together which is obviously not a correct way to look at things. There are many facets of wet work all of which are equally demanding and require their own specific considerations. I once worked on a TV spot for the WWF (not the wrestlers) and one scene was the a water lever POV of an approaching (at very high speed) Jet Ski. I was in the water holding my housing at that time, a Sealux housing for a Sony VX1000, which was in itself quite a lump. I back up your declaration to users needing to find the right housing for the right job. Saves time, effort and in the long run a LOT of money.

My selection of housing is not based on cost but based on the practicality of operation to meet my own personal taste. Whilst electronic housings offer lots of fast solutions for cam operation they can also be prone to failure, something I wouldn't want to happen, to me or anyone, when filming in an isolated geographical region for example. Manual controls allow for field servicing or temporary fixes to get the job done at least.

I look forward to your initial tests, geeeez I'm envious that you'll be dunking your RED before me but hey, Kudos for getting in there at the outset.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Steve Gibby]

Cheers Camdiver. Myself, and my associate wet work shooters, are all surface-level, or shallow free-dive shooters. I have great respect for the added equipment challenges and safety issues of deep water shooting. Our workspaces are somewhat related, but also very different. Wet shooters of all depths can get ideas/tips from each other. In the case of RED One, we're not only using groundbreaking technology inside the housings (RED One, REDCODE RAW, etc.), but we're also using cutting edge technology in the form of housings. Sharing ideas for housings, lenses, etc. is critical, thus I do appreciate this thread. I posted my thoughts because I felt that forum users should realize there are basically two different, but related workflows to wet work shooting: deep water submersion shooting using scuba, and shallow/surface water shooting for sports and adventure travel subjects. Both are somewhat related, but the technology demands (housings, lights or lack thereof, lenses, filters, drives, etc.) can be very different.

The cool thing is that this REDUser forum gives us a chance to compare ideas as we approach being the first ones on the planet to dunk our RED One cameras! Let's keep this thread, and ones like it, going so we have a way to compare notes and ideas for the common good. If I need a good deep water RED One shooter for a project, I'll contact you. I've lived by the ocean most of my life and it's my favorite subject to shoot - wildlife, waves, sports, etc. Producing and directing is enjoyable (and necessary) to me, but there is nothing like personally heading out to shoot some good images - and even better if those images are on or in the ocean!

When in Los Angeles recently, I went to an IMAX theater and saw Greg MacGillveray's IMAX film Deep Sea 3D. As I sat there watching that remarkable film, with my 3D glasses on, and fantastically filmed sea creatures swimming right off the screen in front of my face, it was an entirely euphoric experience - almost like a drug, but much better! They had some insane surface-level shots in there too - unbelievable stuff! I was mesmerized...

Those of us, who dunk RED One cameras, whether it is surface water or deep water, will be recording the next generation of in-water images for the world to enjoy. Hopefully those images will take viewer's breath away, similar to my reaction as I watched Deep Sea 3D in IMAX. Whether the images are 3D or not, hopefully their visual impact will stun the audience and help them appreciate the beauty of the world's seas and their wildlife...and move them to lend a hand to help preserve them.

[Mark Thorpe]

Hey Gibby,
Nice words. I do feel that many people appreciate the Ocean more than they realize. Many of the TV manufacturers select underwater or natural history montages to showcase new models, new screens and new technology. There is an unwritten affinity in all of us with the Ocean that draws people to wonder at its complexities, to marvel at its denizens.

It does take a lot of material considerations to take our cameras down but in the long run I believe it to be more than worth it. Not just from a satisfaction level for me personally but also as it allows people to see better, clearer images from place I choose to call my office. These images if used to educate people and change negative opinions to positive actions then I feel I am succeeding at what I set out to do.

For RED I have pretty much got my head around most facets of my requirements. I'm actually planning to work, as I normally do, in the acquisition of stock underwater imagery as opposed to full on production. I believe that route will offer me a break with regards to the financial outlay, apart from storage facility requirements. Mixed with potential commissions from producing entities will hopefully allow me to amass a very nice library of stock to compliment future documentary / film productions. The only stumbling block / minefield for me at the moment is trying to decide what format I will be working in and with that obviously the lens issues.

Cheers,
Mark.
P.S I'd be honored to be considered for any deeper wet work you may require in future projects.

[SalaTar]

how many feet :D

Im thinking Red could do deep not a simple housing for divers

[Stokestack]

Sorry if I came across abrupt mate, no offense intended and I certainly was not scoffing at you. Please don't get the wrong idea of what I am doing here either.

No prob, Mark. And it IS interesting to hear what goes on with a large-scale shoot. In fact, if you do any shoots around southern California, I'd be interested in observing. I have a divemaster rating, so I should be qualified to uncoil some cables or something. Shoot me a PM if that sounds remotely feasible and I'll give you my info.

Of course, with the undependable and often-crappy visibility around here, I don't know where you'd be shooting... I don't even really dive here anymore.

Gavin

[SalaTar]

Depending on depth the corrective lenses can cost more than the camera

[Finner]

I have done some shallow underwater work (20 feet and up) and a bit of pool work for CGI. I would be very interested in if there is a possible reasonably priced housing for this kind of work. I would want some kind of focus pulling ability with the housing and to be able to run a hdmi to video village would also be great (I have never run a transmitter under water or even just under water in a pool. Anyone try this before?). I would not use it a lot but if the price is right I would very much like to have a housing in my line up of RED tools.

Insight from you pro's in this area and experiences you have with different housings would be very beneficial.

[Ken Corben]

If we shoot below natural light from 10 meters on up to 100+ meters with ambient light (fiji or palau) in 4k RAW will the possibilities of "true" color from the reefs be the output after the red workflow?

That is to say to eliminate the need for surface supplied lighting?

[Ken Corben]

Finner

I own an equinox housing for a PAL PD 150 which I use as a back up system to my Gates Z-1 set up.

http://www.dive-equinox.com/ch_packages.shtml

These guys are smart and customer friendly and produce affordable housings (less than $2K?)

They would gladly make a housing for your red one package. Might even cut you a special deal if you can send them the camera system to design the housing for production. They are trust worthy having done this before for a mate of mine.

The only issue I would be concerned with is optics. Mysterium sensor, your Nikon wide angle lens and 4k or 2k all looking thru a 6" acrylic dome. Might work very well for your applications?

[luis bustamante]

we are also planning on getting our RED wet. Luke Inman from London UK is our underwater expert & camera man. Gates is also our brand of choice, nice to read they're already into the development of this housing.

I hope this thread turns into an info resource on this matter, great idea!

Cheers!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

These guys are smart and customer friendly and produce affordable housings (less than $2K?)

Speaking of Equinox, I paid less than US$1300 shipped for my housing (the ProPak 8 for my DVX100) a few years ago. It was nice to have... But it didn't fit my HVX200 - need their EQ housing for that and it's over $3K. I wonder if they'll have something for RED? I would like a housing for RED, but it's really just something I would like to have if the price is right... It would see shallow water use mostly... The deepest it would ever go might be about 100ft or so if I ever took it out diving.

[Mark Thorpe]

Hi Stokestack, thanks for understanding.

Sala Tar - "Depending on depth the corrective lenses can cost more than the camera".
Not quite sure I understand at what you are saying here? Corrective lenses to serve what purpose?

Finner - RED One is going to be a very unique camera as we are all aware. I think it will take a while for the housing market to get up to speed with regards to available wet bags / housings for it. That said, and when things are running smoothly, I would imagine your best bet for pool work would be either a splash box or an EWA Marine wet bag. I am not aware if either would have an HDMI out / access port through the bulkhead / structure. I would hazzard a guess at this point that any shallow water (down to 20ft) housing would have to be custom designed if weight and cost is your main issue. Seeing as RED is unique I believe any housing requirement outside of the bulky underwater ones intended for deeper applications would have to be designed to your specific needs, potentially expensive at the outset but once ready you'll be able to provide a valuable service. Saying that though I am pretty sure that most future offerings from housing manufacturers such as Gates, Amphibico, Pace (If they get into it) Equinox and Sealux aimed at supporting RED will have HDMI out ports for surface monitoring. Focus pulling is the act of keeping the camera in focus (sorry for my ignorance to the film world terminology) right? I guess that will be down to the operator manipulating the manual / electronic commands provided by the housing. This is all still speculation as we await the physical camera.

Sharkguy - Personally, others may differ but this is just me, I prefer lighting. I try to get away without lighting down to a max of 20m but after that it is imperative for good lighting. I live by the rule that too much light can be sorted out in post but at the other end of the scale with no lighting at depth, there's not a lot you can do to rescue a 'gained out to the max' image IMVHO. You may be interested to hear that two companies, Nuytco and Halcyon, are now producing 200w diver portable HMI units. 5600 degrees kelvin with an autonomy of 40 minutes (the Nuytco option can be dialed down to 100w to run 70 mins). Mind you they are not cheap, circa $6000 per light. I have a surface supplied 1200w HMI option (2x600w) but its a pain in the butt, not to mention very constrictive with only 300ft of power cable per head. We have a particularly impressive shallow cave system here in Palau and thus far with the surface supplied system have only really been able to light the first chamber. Looking forward to getting the Nuytcos as there are some amazing potential sequences to be had when I start messing around with lighting angles etc.

Luis - Let's keep the dialog going. Hopefully it will result in becoming a good source for all RED Dunkers.

AppliedVisual - Never used Equinox but I am aware of them. A friend was shooting here in Palau with one recently using an FX1. Due to humidity buildup he could film the first 10 minutes of his dive then his unit kept fogging big time. He was prepping his cam in an AC environment. We stuffed every available air space with silica gel packs which solved the problem but made his unit sound like a babies rattle every time he swung it around with intent. Not a bad housing, served its purpose.

Cheers all,
Mark.

[Jason Sturgis]

Guys, this is an excellent thread and I love the input from people all over the world. When we get our hands on Red, I am sure this will be a great place to throw ideas around and get the systems dialed in just the way we like them. Hopefully learn from each other and shoot some amazing underwater footage. Keep the Underwater thread going!
Best,
Jason

[Mike the beginner]

Gibby thanks for those great posts :)

My maximum depth is likely to be 15ft so a much cheaper underwater unit would be great. I tried one of those plastich ewa marine things on an xm2 i had. I did not like them and felt they would leak at any time. A well made solid unit for shallow diving priced at around 2-3k would be just fine for me.

Michael

[Mark Thorpe]

I think Splash boxes would be better options than EWA marine, that's not to say that EWA Marine's product doesn't perform. It may just be a bit limiting where RED is concerned if ever they do actually attempt a product for the camera. Tough acrylic with the basic controls, normally good for 10 to 15m. I guess the best option for all potentially custom designs will have to wait until we actually get RED shipping. I'm sure then will dawn the era of third party support options, custom wet housings included.

Best,
Mark.

[gcaussade]

Ah! I'd love to take Red back to Coco's island (off of the coast of Costa Rica.)

Personally, I prefer shooting large schools of fish, and seeing schools of hundreds of hammerhead sharks in 4K would be nice. I guess IMAX did some of this high-res work, but it would be amazing to be able to do it with a small(er) camera!

In regards to lighting, you can't get the proper color, even with a fast camera, since so many wave lengths have been absorbed before they even get to your lens, or the object you're filming. BUT, it will be interesting to see if RED would allow filming with less artificial light. (Pixel binning, etc?)

I love disruptive technology,

-Jerry

[David Nardini]

My maximum depth is likely to be 15ft so a much cheaper underwater unit would be great

Totally agree ... that's my aim too ;-)

EWA bags are quit terrible (IHMO). Splash zone stuff is ok, but I would not like to stick it 1 inch underwater :D

My ideal would be separate body shell and ports; the port housing the lens control so that it could support a number of 'typical' lenses for u/w work.

Somebody a while back suggested the use of the Nikonos 15mm ... optically this could be quite brilliant, however will not provide a 90 degree FOV (which is personally my target at the wide end).

As you've all said so far, optics will be the most challenging part.

Keep this post alive :)

[Mark Thorpe]

Hi,
Jerry - I think down to about 8m or so would be fine. I can do that no sweat with regular HDV cameras. I normally white balance through a corrective filter and there you have fantastic color, no orange tinge - of course a nice sunny day helps too. Wondering if RED will be sensitive enough to do that without corrective filters, or if we should work with CC filters to begin with? White balance when shooting 4K is done in post anyway so there's where you get your "look". However saying that water is water is water. It absorbs light and wavelength so damn fast which leads me to believe that irrespective as to whether RED will be the all singing all dancing solution I really can't see that we could be looking at a reduction with regards to underwater lighting needs - the spending goes on......:( ........ Oh yeah, Cocos is on my agenda with RED sometime, somehow.

Hi David,
I think there are quite a few people here at REDUSER who intend to do surf zone stuff. Some / many are also based in California. I seem to remember watching an amazing Surfing movie "Stepping into Liquid" a follow up to "The Endless Summer" and the underwater scenes, shot on F900's I believe, were simply stunning. The filmmakers were California based. The housings were made by a one man show operation in Hawaii I think, maybe someone here knows more about him. I don't have access to the film here in Palau but in the 'Special Features' on the disc, the 'Making of' segment names the housing manufacturer, just some quiet Hawaiian dude who sits in his garage making housings for surf cameraman. I really think that all shallow / surf zone housing options will have to be commissioned on an individual basis. It seems that many people here have different ideas for applications of their RED's so that's gonna really determine the design and build of the units. So you just intend staying shallow with your RED?

Cheers,
Mark.
P.S My memory is a bit frazzled with regards to the housing manufacturer location as mentioned so don't be surprised if its an Hawaiian living in Cali or a Californian living in Hawaii, or a Hawaiian living in Hawaii......too much pressure.

[Mark Thorpe]

The last post ties in nicely with another very important issue for us wet shooters / White Balance.

I'd like to get feedback on the common techniques each of us use. For me I use a bastardized 'Expodisc' which I retrofitted to fit into the protective lens cover of my dome ports, see below. I bought the neutral 4" version and just sunk that into the plastic cover. The inside layer is a regular brilliant white plastic sheet.

However I have often thought that manual white balance can be a sticky issue underwater. We are basically shifting pixel temps underwater to make a better image. In a static position clouds can play havoc with sequences especially if its something unique - W/B set at the beginning of the sequence then a cloud interrupts filming at the precise point when the baby whale shark head emerges!! Descending too is also a big consideration. I normally reset W/B every 5 m or so on my descent but it does get to a point, 90fsw and below, where it just doesn't serve any purpose.

With RED shooting at 4K we take care of W/B in post so thats a no brainer. Will W/B operation be a one touch action with RED? Any input from RED team would be great.

Cheers,
Mark.
Here's the Expodisc sunk into my Dome Port protection.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/55_1170198305.jpg

[Ken Corben]

What are the thoughts/limitations on using a Nikonos 15 lens?

Is it a water contact lens? I wouldn't want to rely on its bayonet mount o-ring between the ocean and my red one housing/camera.

WB - I use a white slate attached to my fin - allows for run and gun WB. Might consider placing a color chart on the fin for RED to dial in color during post.

[Steve Gibby]

I think there are quite a few people here at REDUSER who intend to do surf zone stuff. Some / many are also based in California. I seem to remember watching an amazing Surfing movie "Stepping into Liquid" a follow up to "The Endless Summer" and the underwater scenes, shot on F900's I believe, were simply stunning. The filmmakers were California based. The housings were made by a one man show operation in Hawaii I think, maybe someone here knows more about him. I don't have access to the film here in Palau but in the 'Special Features' on the disc, the 'Making of' segment names the housing manufacturer, just some quiet Hawaiian dude who sits in his garage making housings for surf cameraman. I really think that all shallow / surf zone housing options will have to be commissioned on an individual basis. It seems that many people here have different ideas for applications of their RED's so that's gonna really determine the design and build of the units.

The producer/director of "Stepping into Liquid" is Dana Brown, son of the producer/director of "The Endless Summer" Bruce Brown. Both are acquaintances of mine. Surfing industry motion media production has been one of my core areas of production for almost three decades. I've also surfed since 1959 - my father learned to surf in Hawaii in the 1940's and brought it back to California and shared the addiction with his sons.

It was an F900 that Dana Brown used for shooting "Step into Liquid". The stunning underwater shots you referred to are probably the ones where the shooter is in clear tropical waters, laying on the coral reef on his back, about 12' beneath big crystal clear waves breaking over the top of him – and in some of the shots there is a semi-transparent surfer gliding in slo-mo right through the sun glare. That's a signature shot for surf movies. I have a lot of those in my footage library, and me and my shooters will be shooting those type shots in 4k REDCODE @30fps and 2k REDCODE @ 60fps (for slo-mo).

RED One with a lightweight Nikkor prime lens, battery, and Flash, should only weigh around 11 pounds. A custom lightweight housing, port included, will weigh only about 2 pounds, so the entire "ready to dunk" RED One surf zone rig will weigh about 13 pounds. At that weight, it will probably be a two-handled housing, with throughputs for start/stop, record, and focusing. EVF will not be used, but rather a custom shaded window on the housing for the LCD. Shooting is obviously in bright daylight, so lens will be stopped down to at least f8 or f11, providing the deep DOF needed for the shots. In those conditions a pre-focus out to infinity is all that is needed - focus, frame, and let the action pass through the frame, or pan with it. I’ll have my housing designed for the ability to interchange ports and lenses, so I can customize the rig for the specific shots I’m after. The trick there is to use lenses that are about the same size and make, so the lens throughput controls can be used. Primes will be lightweight. I may have a second housing made that is for use of a zoom. The RED 18-85mm zoom I’ve reserved has been projected to be “compact” by the RED team, so if “compact” translates to relatively light (under 5 pounds), then I’ll probably have another custom housing made specifically for use of that lens. The Nikon 17-35mm zoom, on RED One in a custom housing could be another candidate for certain surf zone uses.

There are several custom housing makers active in the surfing industry, most of which live in California, Hawaii, and Australia. They make housings for photography, cinematography, and videography. A custom housing, minus port, can be as little as $1,200 USD, and go up from there, depending on the complexity of features and throughputs desired. Sports zone shooting housings don't need to be as complex as deep dive housings, but they do need to be impact resistant. Now days the materials are usually either aluminum or carbon fiber. After I get my own custom RED One housing made I'll post pics of it, info on makers of custom water sports housing makers, and 4k frames of some of the results of the first shots. Those first shots will undoubtedly be inside large wave shots in California and Hawaii. Myself and a few of my water camermen will do the shooting.

Cheers!

[Mark Thorpe]

Great information there Gibby, thanks. Looking forward to seeing the results of your first test sessions with the housings. One image that stays with me from Stepping into Liquid is the shot of two female models on surfboards looking like they are paddling out on their boards but they are in fact a few feet underwater as a large(ish) wave rolls over behind them. The water is crystal clear, the roll of the wave is impressive and the shot is tack sharp. Incredible work.

sharkguy, all the Gates ports attach using the bayonet action. It takes a short while to get used to seeing as I was always using screw in ports before. Double O'rings and wet tests without cameras after having a morning long port changing session and I was quite confident in the change of port seating. I had an articulated arm for white balance on the Z1 / Gates, but water resistance kept weakening the base screw so i changed to the bastardized Expodisc option. Works well. I also have an old Amphibico color chart that I take with me for the first shot on each dive and also if the conditions change drastically during that dive.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Steve Gibby]

One image that stays with me from Stepping into Liquid is the shot of two female models on surfboards looking like they are paddling out on their boards but they are in fact a few feet underwater as a large(ish) wave rolls over behind them. The water is crystal clear, the roll of the wave is impressive and the shot is tack sharp. Incredible work.

I remember that shot. It was a slo-mo. The girls were riding shortboards, and the slo-mo was of them duck diving under a wave, with the camera perspective you described. A duck dive is this: when you're paddling out a shortboard (and some shorter longboards) and you're busting through waves, just before a wave get to you, you take both hands and push the nose of the board as deep into the water as you can, then almost simultaneously after that you put your knee or the ball of your foot on the top of the tailblock of the board and push it under the water. With practice on a shortboard, you can duck dive it as far as four or five feet under water. Going under waves that way gets you away from the power of the wave and you simply bob to the surface and keep right on paddling. That shot looked cool in the movie because it was shot in clear tropical water at a high frame rate for a smooooooooooth slo-mo. The trick as a cinematographer shooting surfing is to understand the sport well, know waves, currents, dangers, etc., and anticipate where to be for the shot - and where not to be so you don't get pounded!

Good stuff!

[Mark Thorpe]

The trick as a cinematographer shooting surfing is to understand the sport well, know waves, currents, dangers, etc., and anticipate where to be for the shot - and where not to be so you don't get pounded!

Ain't that the truth, and also with temperamental toothed critters looking for some payback. I've often ventured close to the surf zone of the reefs in Micronesia and Palau, although we are not famous for surf here it can, at times, get quite big. Gotta tell you, it kinda freaks me out. I'm happy to be 100ft down tootling along a reef, mixing it with all manner of wildlife in Palau, or anywhere else for that matter, because thats what I am used to. I'm sure the surf zone also commands respect and a deep knowledge of its ways to be able to work inside it. Respect to those who do.

Best,
Mark.

[Steve Gibby]

I have done some shallow underwater work (20 feet and up) and a bit of pool work for CGI. I would be very interested in if there is a possible reasonably priced housing for this kind of work. I would want some kind of focus pulling ability with the housing and to be able to run a hdmi to video village would also be great (I have never run a transmitter under water or even just under water in a pool. Anyone try this before?). I would not use it a lot but if the price is right I would very much like to have a housing in my line up of RED tools.

Insight from you pro's in this area and experiences you have with different housings would be very beneficial.

I’ll take a whack at that:

For the type of shallow shooting you describe I think a water sports housing like I describe on page 5 of this thread, post #42, is kinda what you need. A simple, lightweight, custom aluminum housing, with throughputs for focus and record, a lightweight prime (maybe a Nikkor 20mm), a good wide angle port, and a perpendicular view window extension for the LCD on the side (with built-in shade). A custom housing like that shouldn't cost you more than around $1,500 to have it made.

If you need a video tap, and you'll be relatively stationary, and the cable run isn't too far, you may be able to have a waterproof throughput placed in the housing for an HDMI cable. If you'll be swimming/shooting at the surface, then maybe an HDMI wireless transmitter hooked to that same throughput, and bagged to be waterproof.

Surprisingly, somebody has a patent filed for a wireless underwater video/audio transmitter.
Link: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6525762.html

No doubt the military has advanced underwater video/audio wireless transmission capability. Hopefully some of that tech will be declassified at some point so we can use it!

I’ve never had to get a video tap out when I’ve been shooting in the water. For the television productions I produce, direct, and/or shoot that have in-water sequences, everyone involved is crystal clear on what shots are needed, me or one of my crew goes out and shoots them, then we immediately check footage to make sure we nailed it. If it’s a business media project, and a client and agency are involved, we then preview the footage for them. As long as everyone was on the same page for what the shots should be before hitting the water, we almost always nail it without having to swim again.

[Finner]

Thanks a bunch Gibby, the housing you mention sounds perfect except I would need a it large enough to work with PL primes and not the Nikors. Other then that what you describe is perfect.

I totally agree with you on not needing a video tap if you plan things out and evryone is on the same page. This unfortunately does not work for a lot of my projects and I can sum it up in 1 word "I.A.T.S.E.". The union world just works a little different, in fact I have also had to use underwater communication systems when shooting union under water stuff. All that said I am doing more and more projects on my own as a director/shooter.

Thanks again for the input. I look forward to when you post about the housing you have built. It sounds like the best bet for me is one like you are going to have built.

Instead of aluminum have you ever thought of a lexan built housing. I have used one like this before and it worked quite well and made all things visiable on the camera.

[Steve Gibby]

Good input Finner. A larger sleeve/port for PL primes would be no problem at all. For weight and risk issues I'll probably use Nikkor primes for most of the action sports wet zone shooting, then re-port or use a different housing for PL cine prime work. I will also have a housing made specifically for use with the compact RED 18-85mm zoom when I get mine. That rig would then mostly be used as a variable focal length setup. In water work, sometimes I need primes, and sometimes a wide zoom would be the ticket.

Of the 800+ national and international TV programs I've produced, directed, edited and/or shot, none were union. As you know, non-union is a different scenario, so I've had the lattitude to call the shots as the workflow (and budeget) dictated. I definitely respect union work, it's an important part of the motion media production equation. That said, my personality just resonates better to a non-union environment...

Good call on lexan...its strong, light, and the tranparency would be way cool!

I'm in L.A. nearly every week for meetings or to fly out to somewhere. When I get my first RED One (#8), which will be in the first batch delivered, I'll bring it down to L.A. with me. PM me your contact info and I'll hook up with you so you can check it out, mount some of your primes, pop out some footage, and check the results.

As soon as I get my hand on my first RED One I'll be working with my housing maker on getting my first housing made for it...then its splash time! Yipeee...!

[Hoffmann Films]

Most of the water work in Stepping into liquid was shot by Don King, Mike Prickett and Sonny Miller. The cameras used for almost all the water shots are Milliken sp16 high speed cameras, photosonics 1VN and Arri SR2 cameras all with custom housings. The housing maker on Oahu is Taro Pascual who has since stopped making water housings. Having a RED one in a housing will be great but nothing beats high speed film cameras for epic water shots of surfing or waves.

[Steve Gibby]

Most of the water work in Stepping into liquid was shot by Don King, Mike Prickett and Sonny Miller. The cameras used for almost all the water shots are Milliken sp16 high speed cameras, photosonics 1VN and Arri SR2 cameras all with custom housings. The housing maker on Oahu is Taro Pascual who has since stopped making water housings. Having a RED one in a housing will be great but nothing beats high speed film cameras for epic water shots of surfing or waves.

Howzit...I think we know each other. Steve Gibby here, who produced, directed, and shot extensively in the Islands for about 20 years - for DynoComm, and other network programmming packagers. We share many of the same credits and associates listed on your web site, so we've probably worked on the same crew at some point, or several times. Checked your web site - you look familiar. I see you have RED # 607. Very cool! When I come to the Islands lets hook up and you can check out the rig. I got your email address from your web site. Let's talk via email...

Don King, Mike Prickett, and Sonny Miller are all longtime friends of mine. They have worked on my crew or on the same crew as me many times, in places like Java, South Africa, Hawaii, etc. Each is an excellent shooter. When I get the housing finished for RED #8, I'll take a trip to Hawaii, and rather than shoot the in-water footage myself, I may hire either Don, Mike, Sonny, or Larry Haynes to shoot some stuff for me with it. No huge waves at first - just 10-12' faces. Once the housing checks out fine we'll work our way up - no Jaws or Waimea, but decent sized stuff.

RED One will do 2k REDCODE Raw @ 60fps, recorded onboard to RED Flash. This should make some excellent slo-mo footage. For normal sequences that won't be used for slo-mo, I'll shoot them in 4k REDCODE RAW at 24fps and 30 fps, in camera to RED Flash. I've seen 4K REDCODE RAW and 2REDCODE RAW at full resolution. If you haven't, I think you're in for a pleasant surprise! I think RED One will make a superb in-water and from-land camera for action sports shooting - and save a lot of fiscal and workflow headaches over using 35mm and S16 film. I see on your web site that you already have some good S16 lenses. If they're PL mount, they can be used on RED One when you're shooting in 2k.

[Hoffmann Films]

Howzit Gibby, Yes I'm sure we have crossed paths in Hawaii and I agree about the RED being a great camera for action sports. You are stoked on #8 and I'm sure the footage from RED will be incredible in and out of the water. Once people/producers understand the workflow (like P2) RED will be a common name in the format choices for many projects. I do have some nice PL mount lens and I'm excited about all the lens choice options for the RED camera. Be in touch via email.

[SalaTar]

Hi Stokestack, thanks for understanding.

Sala Tar - "Depending on depth the corrective lenses can cost more than the camera".
Not quite sure I understand at what you are saying here? Corrective lenses to serve what purpose?

[Mark.

Deeper you go the bigger the Glass to compensate for pressure...More distortion, you have to put "Glasses" on it. Not a free dive.:D

[Anders Holck]

"Dunking the RED"
http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/5814/1172537607.jpg

[CVB]

Anders, you must have risked life and limb to get the treacherous shot ;)

[Mark Thorpe]

Anders,
You got nutz man.......kudos for walking that knife edge. Next time I need someone with super sized plums for future productions I'll be banging down your door.

Respect,
Mark.
:)