The case against Cine lenses...

[Jaime Vallés]

OK, here's my unsolicited, inexperienced observation on using 35mm SLR lenses for indie feature films instead of Cine lenses from Cooke, Zeiss, or even *gasp* RED.

Pros of Cine lenses:
*Top-notch image quality (depending on lens)
*Solid build (no cheap plastics here)
*PL mount standard (fits directly into the RED ONE with no mount swapping)
*Easier to pull focus (due to barrel width and travel of focus ring)
*Accurate focus marks on lenses
*Minimal breathing on most modern cine lenses
*Color matched sets available
*Brand names trusted by clients
*RED and Cooke lenses use /i for recording lens metadata

Cons of Cine lenses:
*Very expensive (compared to SLR lenses)
*Bigger and heavier (typically)
*Motorized zoom, focus and aperture require (usually) expensive external motors
*Did I mention very expensive?

Now, with the introduction of the Birger electronic mount for Canon and Nikon lenses, the playing field becomes a lot more even (assuming it works as advertised). Let's look at the SLR lens situation.

Pros of SLR lenses with Birger electronic mount:
*Very inexpensive (compared to Cine lenses)
*Excellent image quality on SLR cameras (should look just as good on RED footage)
*Small, lightweight (typically)
*Electronic control of aperture, focus and zoom with no need for external, expensive motors.
*Programmable focus marks
*Lens metadata can be recorded (like /i Cooke lenses)

Cons of SLR lenses:
*Ergonomics for focusing not as good as Cine lenses (but the Birger mount can potentially negate this)
*Zoom lenses may not hold focus through entire zoom range (depending on lens)
*Focus marks on lens not very accurate
*More prone to breathing (depending on lens)
*Color cast may vary from one lens to the next
*Must purchase additional SLR mount to replace the standard PL mount on RED ONE
*Lens build quality varies greatly (some lenses made from flimsy plastic)
*Brand names not usually associated with good cinema (clients may not like that)


So, there it is. With the Birger mount being able to control the focusing and aperture of very inexpensive, high quality SLR lenses from Canon or Nikon, the cost of cine lenses (even RED's lenses) just seem too high for independent cinema. Let's look at actual prices.

RED 18-50 f2.8 CF zoom - $6,500
RED 50-150 f2.8 zoom - $8,500
TOTAL - $15,000

(I'm not even going to mention the prices of the Cooke or Zeiss prime lenses.)


Then we have Nikon or Canon lenses with the Birger mount:

Birger mount with wireless electronic follow focus and aperture and zoom control - $1,400 (if reserved before Sept. 11 2007)

plus

Canon 17-55 f2.8 zoom - $1,000
Canon 24-70 f2.8 zoom - $1,000
Canon 70-200 f2.8 zoom - $1,700
TOTAL - $5,100 (including Birger mount)

or

Nikon 17-55 f2.8 zoom - $1,300
Nikon 28-70 f2.8 zoom - $1,400
Nikon 80-200 f2.8 zoom - $900
TOTAL - $5,000 (including Birger mount)

or

Zeiss ZF f-mount prime lens set (25, 35, 50 & 85mm)
TOTAL - $4900 (including Birger mount)

So, for around $5000 you can get a set of brand-new SLR zooms in either Canon or Nikon mount, plus an electronic follow focus with zoom and aperture control, fully programmable. There's also the Zeiss ZF prime set, which will look impressive to clients that recognize the brand name. You can also purchase used Nikon or Canon lenses for much less. Or you can spend $15,000 on RED cine lenses with no electronic programmable follow focus, zoom or aperture control. The image quality of the SLR lenses should be *extremely* good, so much so that most people would never know there's anything wrong or weird about the footage. The Birger mount (if it works as advertised) negates any focusing advantages of Cine lenses, plus gives you the ability to program focus and zoom shifts.

To me, unless you're working for Paramount, there's little reason to purchase cine lenses. The advantages simply don't justify the price anymore.

I know, I know... I can always RENT cine lenses. But at this point I'm purchasing a RED ONE, I want to be able to use it whenever, without having to rent anything. Therefore I want to own my lenses. And I can't think of any reason to buy cine lenses, now that the Birger mount is becoming a reality.

So, what do you all think?
(Flame-retardant suit on) :tongue:

[Michael Schrengohst]

Excellent breakdown....
Yes, it will depend on what you are shooting, crew size (if you have one)
budget, etc.......

I think LART will tell us a lot.
I have a little feature lined up a soon
as my RED arrives. The producer is fine
with using my Nikons. I would love to have
the RED zooms and hopefully can afford
them later on.

[tj williams]

Jaime
Nicely laid out.... for stock or small indy work or regional spots the still lenses should work well. on bigger jobs rent. Is'nt it wonderful to have the choice!!!!

[Poi Boy]

All along I have planned to use my Nikkor primes ( since I have them ) but at $15K the red zooms are damn attractive. For me it is going to come down to the ease of mount change issue.
Aloha
-A

[Christoffer Glans]

I'm going to extend my Canon primes so that when I finally buy my red, I will have a stock of many good lenses.
JUst to be sure... the birger works with Canon EOS lenses? So I can use my L-lenses.

[ericyoung]

I'm going to extend my Canon primes so that when I finally buy my red, I will have a stock of many good lenses.
JUst to be sure... the birger works with Canon EOS lenses? So I can use my L-lenses.

Yes it does work with Canon EOS lenses.

[PaulClements]

I believe the Zeiss ZF lenses don't have the automatic capabilities. I'm pretty sure they are completely manual therefore the birger mount won't work with them unfortunately. They are all AI-s.

If I'm wrong about this I'd be very happy since they look like good low cost lenses.

[Michael Hastings]

Jaime, I think you are right on. The only minor correction is that the still lenses don't have motorized zoom so an external motor will be required for that. (it's in development)

My only adjustment might be to substitute the:

EF16-35mm f/2.8L II USM $1449
This is slightly wider and and L series which may be important for color matching, and should be recommended for best optical quality.

I also would pay the extra $560 and get the IS version of the 70-200 as I think IS is one of the big advantages of still lenses vs. Zeiss and Cooke cines.

Zoom Telephoto EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS Image Stabilizer USM Autofocus $1699

You might also round out a phenomenal package with the 10-22 EF-S f3.5 ($699) which is not marked L because Canon has said it will only use the L designation on EF lenses, but Canon has also stated that the 10-22 uses L mechanical build and optical design.



*Electronic control of aperture, focus and zoom with no need for external, expensive motors.

*Lens build quality varies greatly (some lenses made from flimsy plastic)
Canon 17-55 f2.8 zoom - $1,000
Canon 24-70 f2.8 zoom - $1,000
Canon 70-200 f2.8 zoom - $1,700
TOTAL - $5,100 (including Birger mount)

[Mark L. Pederson]

Jaime -

Great post.

I think it comes down to what you are doing with your camera and who your clients are.

Changing that mount, I don't care how easy they make it, will need to be done with CARE.

Personally, knowing that 90% of the work we will do (commercials + features) the DP's will insist on cine-lenses - we are currently planning to STAY PL all the way - and continue, as cash flow permits, to invest in more PL mount RED glass -

I just trust Jim and the Red team's commitment to price point/QUALITY -

I am sure that we will see some GREAT images from RED cameras and still lenses - but I am finding in meetings these days that one of the key things people are responding to is the fact that you can put high quality CINEMA lenses on the camera - and yes, I understand some CINEMA lenses are made from re-housed still lens elements - but alas ... this is a business of PERCEPTION -

[Jack Wester]

So, for around $5000 you can get a set of brand-new SLR zooms in either Canon or Nikon mount, plus an electronic follow focus with zoom and aperture control, fully programmable.

As much as I wish for every RedOne owner to get as good value for money as possible, I'm left with a little bit of a dilemma. I've ordered one of each lense offered by Red, including the primes. Could somebody help me justify my purchase so I can have some peace of mind? I really want them, but I also want to be a bit rational :unsure:.

So please tell me that the reduced breathing is worth it. I want to be able to shift focus, right? And do cropping and trixing in post is not worth it, right? And I really need the shallow DOF of my fast primes, right? And I really need the primes as well as the 50-150mm, the 18-50mm and the 300mm zooms.

Please.

Pretty please. :help:

[PaulClements]

I'm still undecided myself. If I can organise collimation of the mount myself with the right equipment rather than having to arrange somone else to do it I might go the still route and have both still and cine lenses (Rented) as an option available to clients.

At the price of the Red Zooms though they represent an excellent purchase for a brand new PL mount zoom lens. It's a tricky one.

[PaulClements]

Jack, owning all of the lenses might be a slight overkill especially since no one knows of their quality at present. There are arguments to owning each one though. The least useful is probably the 18-50mm since the primes cover a similar range, however you can still use a zoom for certain shots and scenarios.

If you have a business model to make such a large purchase work for you then I wouldn't worry about buying all of them.

[ChristopherKenworthy]

Could somebody help me justify my purchase so I can have some pease of mind? I really want them, but I also want to be a bit rational :unsure:.

So please tell me that the reduced breathing is worth it. I want to be able to shift focus, right? And do cropping and trixing in post is not worth it, right? And I really need the shallow DOF of my fast primes, right? And I really need the primes as well as the 50-150mm, the 18-50mm and the 300mm zooms. Please. Pretty please. :help:

You answered your own question. A lot depends on who's using the camera. Try getting an experienced cine DP or Camera Assistant to mess about with SLR lenses. That could be trickier than learning to pull focus yourself.

We have no idea what the Red lenses are going to be like, but do we expect them to be bad? No. I'm buying the first two zooms, because I know they'll be good, and I don't want to work with an old SLR lens that's been assimilated by a lot of attachments.

[Matthew Rogers]

I think the case FOR cine lenses is fairly easy...Proven track record of quality images, better focus control (aka longer focus throw), smooth iris pulls, and less breathing (depends on the cine lens.) Sure they can be costly brand new, but for under $15,000 you can get some good lenses.

I personally have decided not to skimp on the lenses. I believe a cine lens is going to be less frustrating to use and when you are on tight shoot it can make a big difference.

Matthew

[Karl H]

Jaime, I think you are right on. The only minor correction is that the still lenses don't have motorized zoom so an external motor will be required for that. (it's in development)

My only adjustment might be to substitute the:

EF16-35mm f/2.8L II USM $1449
This is slightly wider and and L series which may be important for color matching, and should be recommended for best optical quality.

I also would pay the extra $560 and get the IS version of the 70-200 as I think IS is one of the big advantages of still lenses vs. Zeiss and Cooke cines.

Zoom Telephoto EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS Image Stabilizer USM Autofocus $1699

You might also round out a phenomenal package with the 10-22 EF-S f3.5 ($699) which is not marked L because Canon has said it will only use the L designation on EF lenses, but Canon has also stated that the 10-22 uses L mechanical build and optical design.

I agree with almost everything you said here - however I wondered about the 10-22. firstly its a f/3.5 lens so not great in low light, and also the 16-35 seems to cover some of that focal length. Is there a recommended wide prime that you could replace the 10-22 with? preferably a low light performer? 14mm is the widest i can find

[Jaime Vallés]

One thing I should have said in the original post is that these are the reasons for using SLR lenses that work FOR ME. There are definitely many, many occasions for using the bad-ass cine lenses, and if you or your clients can afford them, by all means, they're the best of the best. Plus there are also S16 mm lenses and B4 mount EFP lenses that certainly work better for run & gun work, corporate, etc.

Also, If you're set on purchasing PL mount lenses, then RED's glass is by far the best deal in town.

But for me, in order to make my next independent film, I can spend $15,000 in one of two ways:

RED 18-50 zoom - $6,500
RED 50-150 zoom - $8,500
TOTAL - $15,000

or

Birger electronic mount with wireless follow-focus - $1,400
Nikon 17-55 zoom - $1,300
Nikon 28-70 zoom - $1,400
Nikon 80-200 zoom - $900
RED power pack (2 batteries & charger) - $1,450
RED LCD screen - $1,700
RED FLASH (CF) module - $500
SanDisk 8GB Extreme IV CompactFlash Card - $165 (x 4 = $660)
RED Basic Production Pack - $1,250
O'Connor 1030HD Fluid Head - $4,000
Redrock Micro Mattebox - $500
TOTAL - $15,060

For me, there's just no contest.

[Dave Dessel]

Hi,

I tried searching previous posts, and also visited the Birger web site. I can't find any pricing or reservation info. If it exits, where is it located?

Thanks much,

Dave Dessel

Red #533

www.daviddessel.com

[PaulClements]

Like I mentioned before, simply because your personal setup means that you have still lenses there is no reason that you can't champion the use of hired cine lenses for your clients.

As long as a thorough and accurate method of swapping mounts is accounted for that gives excellent collimation swapping back to PL mount from birger mounr for a shoot where the production crew have hired a set of Cooke primes for example, it is not a major problem in my mind.

One of the major reasons for using cine lenses is because you can rely on them to work because you know what they are like. People like different lenses because they have certain characteristics, some people might turn their nose up at Red Cine lenses as much as they might still lenses since they have no idea what either will look like for them, especially if they so picky tha they like their Cooke S4's over their Zeiss already, what's going to make them use an unknown cine lens brand?

One of the major advantages of the still lenses for my mind is that you can pass on that saving to the client. If you use cheap still lenses the cost is significantly less. If you want a set of Zeiss or Cooke S4's you pay the market price and rent them along with the RedOne.

[PaulClements]

Hi,

I tried searching previous posts, and also visited the Birger web site. I can't find any pricing or reservation info. If it exits, where is it located?

Thanks much,

Dave Dessel

Red #533

www.daviddessel.com

Hi David,

Pricing is $1400 for the birger mount, follow focus and wires and if you put a deposit down before 11 Sep you get a wireless remote free.

The reservations have not been opened yet as far as I know.

Eric from Birger Engineering will likely make a new thread here on Reduser.net once it is available.

Cheers

Paul

[Martin Drew]

Hi,

I tried searching previous posts, and also visited the Birger web site. I can't find any pricing or reservation info. If it exits, where is it located?

www.daviddessel.com

Hi Dave

Pricing is here http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=62786&postcount=106 (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=62786&postcount=106) I don't think the reservation info has been posted yet though.

M

[Siva Kollipara]

Jaime,

Well said
Did you forget to include, RED Brick..?
Aren't you using large storage/longer shooting option..?

[Johnny Friday]

I don't think you can go wrong by purchasing the best (track proven) glass you can afford. My budget puts me with a few nice cine lenses and a range of other affordable lenses with the birger mount....Ideally i'd just buy all cine, but doesn't fit the budget for now....but definately they will be in my kit later.
......that was once told me by an old hand many moons ago and I've never regreted splurging on high quality glass

[Dave Dessel]

Guys,

Thanks much for the info.

-Dave

[Stephen Williams]

But for me, in order to make my next independent film, I can spend $15,000 in one of two ways:



Hi,

You could just rent some cine or Nikon lenses.

Stephen

[Roberto B]

always the same stephen.. you won't change this forum..

so let it down..

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2767&page=15

since the last time i had checked.. last sunday.. the numbers changed from 93.10% against 6.90% to 93.81% against to 6.19%.. :mail1:
wait, now since a few seconds ago, it is already in 93.82 against to 6.18%.. :poster_oops: 93.94% vs 6.06%.. and it'll still change.. :bleh:

what do you need more to give up?.. your fight is a defeated fight..

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

Those are results of future owners, in 1 year they might change their mind when the 'honeymoon' is over.

Stephen


always the same stephen.. you won't change this forum..

so let it down..

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2767&page=15

since the last time i had checked.. last sunday.. the numbers changed from 93.10% against 6.90% to 93.81% against to 6.19%.. :mail1:
wait, now since a few seconds ago, it is already in 93.82 against to 6.18%.. :poster_oops: 93.94% vs 6.06%.. and it'll still change.. :bleh:

what do you need more to give up?.. your fight is a defeated fight..

[Roberto B]

we know.. you're frightened.. your days are over.. your high fees are over.. the cinema shall be like the peinture.. the painting or any other accessible art.. a democratic art on everybody's range.. whether you want whether not..


Hi,

Those are results of future owners, in 1 year they might change their mind when the 'honeymoon' is over.

Stephen

[Roberto B]

94.00% vs 6.00%..

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2767&page=15

it seems they are not reading your posts.. ehehehehe

or maybe they're reading.. i believe so, because they're worthy of reading.. but voting there, anyway.. why?..

94% believe your fight is lost.. long life to the digital cinema.. the future now with the Redsssssssssssssssssssssssssss beating you as reps of an old fashioned way to produce motion picture..

at last, on the streets.. not only as promises on forums like those where Jarred.. Mr. Land is.

[Stephen Williams]

we know.. you're frightened.. your days are over.. your high fees are over.. the cinema shall be like the peinture.. the painting or any other accessible art.. a democratic art on everybody's range.. whether you want whether not..

Hi,

Marketing, not everybody wants to shop at Walmart.
I make commercials my clients can easily afford my fees, I can also buy a Red if I want one, probably 2 as I like a back up camera at only $17500 why not?

Stephen

[Damien Molineaux]

we know.. you're frightened.. your days are over.. your high fees are over.. the cinema shall be like the peinture.. the painting or any other accessible art.. a democratic art on everybody's range.. whether you want whether not..

I don't understand the above. There will always be a need, therefor work, for a talented DP. Red is but a tool. It will not make people more talented. Yes it will allow more people to have access to this high quality tool, but that won't put a good DP out of work. Yes it may help talented people to emerge, and it may, although I wouldn't count on it, make some people have less work, but that will just be because they aren't really talented or nice or something just makes it that people don't want to work with them.

I have no doubt the Red camera is a revolutionary tool, but I don't think it's going to change much the way things are made. People have always been the most expensive part of filmmaking, it's just going to be more so. The main thing that's going to change, in my opinion, is that we will have more films shot in a high quality medium. People will shoot 2k or 4k instead of shooting, DVCproHD, HDcam, IMX, DigiBeta, XDcamHD, etc. Red will also gradually replace a lot of the high end digital and film shoots also. The other effect will be the appearance of other tools from the opther manufacturers to compete with Red.

Hurray to Red, leader of the digital rebelion.

Damien

[Roberto B]

me believes in 1 year, you might change your mind and you'd like to be mod here not there.. :gun:


Hi,

Marketing, not everybody wants to shop at Walmart.
I make commercials my clients can easily afford my fees, I can also buy a Red if I want one, probably 2 as I like a back up camera at only $17500 why not?

Stephen

[Roberto B]

I don't understand the above. There will always be a need, therefor work, for a talented DP. Red is but a tool. It will not make people more talented. Yes it will allow more people to have access to this high quality tool, but that won't put a good DP out of work. Yes it may help talented people to emerge, and it may, although I wouldn't count on it, make some people have less work, but that will just be because they aren't really talented or nice or something just makes it that people don't want to work with them.

I have no doubt the Red camera is a revolutionary tool, but I don't think it's going to change much the way things are made. People have always been the most expensive part of filmmaking, it's just going to be more so. The main thing that's going to change, in my opinion, is that we will have more films shot in a high quality medium. People will shoot 2k or 4k instead of shooting, DVCproHD, HDcam, IMX, DigiBeta, XDcamHD, etc. Red will also gradually replace a lot of the high end digital and film shoots also. The other effect will be the appearance of other tools from the opther manufacturers to compete with Red.

Hurray to Red, leader of the digital rebelion.

Damien50% correct.. the point is: these ###.com and ***.net guys are loosing power and they should know what we think about their own actions trying to infiltrate their viewpoint among us..

on the most expensive part.. i can give you my own experience.. the fees suffer of inflation.. when stephen charges for his work, he's thinking on the revenues of his customer.. it's fair.. but it's not fair do not allow others to access to the art, only because they want to protect their own interests.. moreover, doing true brain washing on our minds.. (sorry, but not on mine) SPREADING FUD all over the place..

edit
when it's not portholing, it's the collimation.. and on and on and on..

[PaulClements]

Filmmaker's Gang, I don't want to sound rude but I've had far more valuable advice from Stephen than a great many other people that post here, so please don't try putting him down.

His point he made that you picked up on is a very valid one. It isn't always necessary to own the lenses. I intend to rent something like Cooke S4's for high end work and probably keep a set of still glass for personal or low budget work. Owning the camera makes a great deal of sense to me and renting the finest glass also does. If business is good then I'll invest in cine lenses some time in the future but I have no quam's about renting them or instructing my clients too do so.

Always show respect to your peers even if you disagree with them about something.

[Roberto B]

Filmmaker's Gang, I don't want to sound rude but I've had far more valuable advice from Stephen than a great many other people that post here, so please don't try putting him down.stephen is a good fellow, i 100% agree.. and no one needs to remind me..

here's what i think about the stephen's posts..

94.00% vs 6.00%..

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2767&page=15

it seems they are not reading your posts.. ehehehehe

or maybe they're reading.. i believe so, because they're worthy of reading..

i've always been friendly.. i like him.. sorry, if my tone sounds rude..maybe because your mother tongue is not mine..

it's not nothing ad hominem.. SURE.. but i'd like TO HAVE READ the same care from people like you (including from stephen) when jim jannard or jarred land were personally attacked outside..

[Stephen Williams]

100% correct.. the point is: these ###.com and ***.net guys are loosing power and they should know what we think about their own actions trying to infiltrate their viewpoint among us..

Hi,

I don't think people at .com & .net want or care about power, they want to do the best possible work for their clients with whatever equipment is most suitable for the project at that time. As Geoff Boyle would say 'horses for courses'. I think people should be made aware of all of the choices available, and make their own decisions. I don't have a horse in the digital race, many clients appreciate that.

Stephen

[Roberto B]

first off and granted the paul's comment, i hope you know what is my thought about your useful information (beyond yourself) when this is not FUD..

your attemps on as much FUD as possible prove that you're (un)fairly worried.. you the same guys who have attacked this project since the beginning.. as well, all our attemps pursuing the less expensive route..


Hi,

I don't think people at .com & .net want or care about power, they want to do the best possible work for their clients with whatever equipment is most suitable for the project at that time. As Geoff Boyle would say 'horses for courses'. I think people should be made aware of all of the choices available, and make their own decisions. I don't have a horse in the digital race, many clients appreciate that.

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

first off and granted the paul's comment, i hope you know what is my thought about your useful information (beyond yourself) when this is not FUD..

your attemps on as much FUD as possible prove that you're (un)fairly worried.. you the same guys who have attacked this project since the beginning.. as well, all our attemps pursuing the less expensive route..

Hi,

I often ask questions & may not accept every answer I am given, thats as true today as a year ago, however I have never attacked the project.

Renting can be less expensive than owning, it's true with Planes, Boats & other things.

Stephen

[Roberto B]

Hi,

I often ask questions & may not accept every answer I am given, thats as true today as a year ago, however I have never attacked the project.

i will not comment though the search button outside can say a different aspect of your own belief here.. but we're not kids stephen.. there are a lot of things you all can do just for pursuing.. again, same word.. your goals..


Renting can be less expensive than owning, it's true with Planes, Boats & other things.

Stephen

AhAhAh.. right.. but red is an airplane only on specs.. and its sketch.. i'm sure jim thought it there.. share his fly with us.. and making money money with us.. sure.. but giving some beyond.. not only marketing.. but making money with his superior marketing.. yeah.. it's true.. in our behalf.. not like it happens with your selfish attempt on trying to leave us outside from the motion picture.. film is shit imho.. why?.. because i need to have a large audience to get it.. and the communication must be poor.. btw, 90% of the blockbusters are shit imho.. and it's not a kid applying to the artist status who's saying.. (there's who has been paying for my thoughts.. so..)

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

Out of interest what do you actually do?

Stephen


i will not comment though the search button outside can say a different aspect of your own belief here.. but we're not kids stephen.. there are a lot of things you all can do just for pursuing.. again, same word.. your goals..



AhAhAh.. right.. but red is an airplane only on specs.. and its sketch.. i'm sure jim thought it there.. share his fly with us.. and making money money with us.. sure.. but giving some beyond.. not only marketing.. but making money with his superior marketing.. yeah.. it's true.. in our behalf.. not like it happens with your selfish attempt on trying to leave us outside from the motion picture.. film is shit imho.. why?.. because i need to have a large audience to get it.. and the communication must be poor.. btw, 90% of the blockbusters are shit imho.. and it's not a kid applying to the artist status who's saying.. (there's who has been paying for my thoughts.. so..)

[Roberto B]

screenwriter.. director.. upcoming red cinematographer.. :)

edit
i forgot.. lecturer at the university.. motion picture programs.. ehehehe
it's true.

[Stephen Williams]

screenwriter.. director.. upcoming red cinematographer.. :)

Hi,

Do you have you any links to your work?

Stephen

[Roberto B]

on the right time.. you'll hear talk about my work.. i hope.. perhaps you've already heard and you didn't notice.. ehehehe it's possible.. i can't surely know :)

a few members know me.. a few students.. not all.. though all my students know this website related to what shall change the motion picture production.. that's for sure.. our world will not be the same.. and an agent on this field only has an attitude to pursue (this word's use for the 3rd time on this thread and i hate to repeat me myself): to be in or out (same than to lose)

[Stephen Williams]

on the right time.. you'll hear talk about my work.. i hope.. perhaps you've already heard and you didn't notice.. ehehehe it's possible.. i can't surely know :)

a few members know me.. a few students.. not all.. though all my students know this website related to what shall change the motion picture production.. that's for sure.. our world will not be the same.. and an agent on this field only has an attitude to pursue (this word's use for the 3rd time on this thread and i hate to repeat me myself): to be in or out (same than to lose)

Hi,

Are you planning to buy a Red now?

Stephen

[Roberto B]

since i have no leasing option :), i already bought a part of a red reservation with my own savings.. just for your information, i already spent USD 40,000.00 on 35 mm film stock.. never again with my future part of a red one..

edit
i already have a bill on the lab to pay.. 35 mm..

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

I use 35mm film, but don't pay for it, that probably accounts for our different attitudes.

Stephen


since i have no leasing option :), i already bought a part of a red reservation with my own savings.. just for your information, i already spent USD 40,000.00 on 35 mm film stock.. never again with my future part of a red one..

edit
i already have a bill on the lab to pay.. 35 mm..

[Jack Wester]

AhAhAh.. right.. but red is an airplane only on specs.. and its sketch.. i'm sure jim thought it there.. share his fly with us.. and making money money with us.. sure.. but giving some beyond.. not only marketing.. but making money with his superior marketing.. yeah.. it's true.. in our behalf.. not like it happens with your selfish attempt on trying to leave us outside from the motion picture.. film is shit imho.. why?.. because i need to have a large audience to get it.. and the communication must be poor.. btw, 90% of the blockbusters are shit imho.. and it's not a kid applying to the artist status who's saying.. (there's who has been paying for my thoughts.. so..)
http://www.pimpmybits.com/DrunkenRed.png

[Eddie]

foolish pride...

messed up yet another thread. :clown2: :clown2:

[Evin Grant]

This is geting silly. You guys need to bring it back to lenses and mounts.
I'm closing this puppy.