What will *you* rent it for?

[Brook Willard]

A recent discussion got me wondering what sort of rental fees people are looking to capture with their cameras. I know it's been discussed in the past and in other forums, but as the shipment date rapidly approaches, I'd like to hear what people are expecting to make. With so many different people from so many different backgrounds on these forums, the results should be interesting.

Current 4K options rent for many thousands a day. That said, current ~$25,000 packages rent for under a grand.

So for the poll: If you were renting a RED ONE body, EVF and production pack... what would you charge? No glass, no power, no recording options.

I expect that those from cine backgrounds will charge more... and those from other backgrounds may charge less. I don't know.

Now obviously there will be different factors. What's the budget of the shoot? How long are they renting for? What kind of production are they? Any number of things could change the figure... so don't worry about it too much. What's the range?

[Eric Edwards]

In everyones opinion, do you think the renting of this camera will do very well..it almost seems that the cost of this camera, its worth it to just buy it rather then keep renting it per week...eventually you'll have rented it for so many days, the cost will have offset just paying for it, what do you think?

[Poi Boy]

until the time that you can buy one on the same day basis there will be a large premium to rent one.
Aloha
-A

[Brook Willard]

In everyones opinion, do you think the renting of this camera will do very well..it almost seems that the cost of this camera, its worth it to just buy it rather then keep renting it per week...eventually you'll have rented it for so many days, the cost will have offset just paying for it, what do you think?

That's pretty much a given. I don't know anybody who owns a [production-oriented] camera that hasn't paid for it many times over in rentals already.

For the poll: lets assume that the camera is going out *without* you, if that makes a difference in what you choose.

[Rick Darge]

What I've been thinking is,

$1K for my RedOne, Prod Bundle, Red Zoom, EVF, Flash, Harddrive
$1.5K with me coming on board as tech/operator
$2-4K for me to DP with the RED

I'm probably not going to rent mine out unless I can come along with, even if they don't want me to operate..but if they don't want me to operate, they better be paying a lot for the rental of the camera.. I'm not buying this thing to just rent out!

I can't imagine renting out my RedOne to a production with insurance, then having them drop it off a cliff, having to file an insurance claim, waiting over a year to get another RedOne. I think I will stipulate that if the camera is destroyed or stolen, I would be paid $100,000 in compensation, no joke..

That being said, I'm looking forward to the high demand that will flood the market once I and all of you receive our Reds. I'm hoping that pays the camera off in a year.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I agree with Eric. The cost of this camera is rather low... Most rental houses will be whoring this thing out. Charging a premium for sure in the beginning simply because of initial demand. But after that, it will be dirt cheap, they will make their rental money on the accessories / lenses they rent with it.

If I rented out the camera body, EVF, Premium pack, two batteries w/charger, 18-50 and 50-150 lenses, CF module, By my calculations, I could completely ROI within 32 weeks of rental at about $1500/week. Obviously that doesn't include much of anything for profit... Not sure if 32 weeks would be ideal or realistic. Just a benchmark calculation. But based on that, I think it would be conceivable that a RED One body, EVF, basic production pack, batteries and a charger could rent for less than $500/day from a rental house. ...Once demand settles, that is.

I haven't put that much thought into it though. I seriously doubt I'm going to rent out my RED and let other people put their grubby hands on it. Just isn't going to happen, I plan to use mine every chance I get and the last thing I want to do is start committing the camera to others or subjecting it to unnecessary wear and tear for a paltry sum of money. I think I can make more money using the camera than letting others pay me a few bucks so they can use it.

[Damien Molineaux]

until the time that you can buy one on the same day basis there will be a large premium to rent one.
Aloha
-A

Actually, I think many people here are buying Reds with the intent of renting them out also, therefor there may be a large rental offer quite soon, which will drive prices down.

Obviously you can't charge too much, everybody knows how much a Red costs, that may even turn against us, because people will keep thinking $17'500 and forget you have to had an EVF, a production pack, power, a recording option, etc.

After talking with a few people, I've decide to go with a 2% of the total price for a one day rental (3% for batteries and charger because they have a lower life expectancy), and a progressivly lower rate as rental times get longer, down to 1% at the lowest.

Cheers,
Damien

PS Of course total price includes shipping, taxes, cases, insurance, etc.

[Russ McDonald]

Hello, I'm the on that was talking to Brook about this. This was a continuation of a thread started by Shane V8F in the LA user group. This was my point of view on the subject.

My background is in Features. I'm currently posting my film Eddies Night Out. I shot in HD over ten days for just under 50,000 OPM(Other Peoples Money) So I'm coming at this from a Producers point of view.


ABOUT FEES

I was budgeting for my next feature, so I was looking to do this in 4k because of the need for integration for digital Efx. I searched high and low. The cost for a two camera shoot with the technologies currently available was over 9000.00 a day (based on a three day week with all the bells and whistles) and that doesn't include the full staff to shoot.

We at this stage don't really know what the true cost of the workflow is, data management, output, there's no spool of exposed negative or tape stock to cover your ass here. One bad drive and your screwed, as a Producer your camera is like 1/80th of my film's day cost. And if it screw's up! Guess who I'm coming after to pay for my re-shoot. If you can't pay for it I assure you, your camera is going home with me, and then-some.


I will never tell anyone what to charge, but your worth in the process is huge. So don't drop you pants unnecessarily. If the nearest alternative to our services is what I was quoted above. Than a 1000 dollars a day is crack whore money.

We will be providing super 35 results at a minimum of 60% of a conventional film budget. Not only are we saving them big money. We are providing additional ancillary markets of distribution to the Producers, and Studios.

Someday 4k will be hanging on walls of living rooms all over the US, 4k players, the 4k network, and Netflicks4k.com. That future is as certain as the a setting Sun. The clients who use are services are in the position to exploit those emerging markets at vary minimal addition cost. We are providing a raw source that will make these people huge money. We should price accordingly, and they will pay. There is enough big hitters out there who want to use it, this isn't some 1080p piece of crap.

My Grandma has that hanging on her wall for Christ sake. The point I'm trying to make here is this, work smart not hard. When you shoot a Super35mm film, you put in the can just over an hour of footage a day. To process, Telecine, transfer and sound sync for dailies, is a minimum of 2000 a day. We haven't even gotten to Datacine-ing for digital manipulation. You do that for a 28 day shoot that's a cool 56000 dollars. Plus you have a 24 hour turn around see what you've shot.

Hiring one of us at a 2500 a day, at a three day rate per week. Translates into the company getting at net savings of 26000 dollars, and you haven't even shot a frame yet. Not to mention the time savings.


I remember this story about two DP's sitting at starbucks, lets call them Chuck and Larry. Larrys bragging about how he's booked for twenty days this month at 300 a day. Chuck say's. "Wow that's great." His friend nods his head and asks. "How about you man, what your month look like" Chuck tells him the hard truth. "Only 5 days this month". Larry shakes his head "What are you charging a day?" Well I gave them a deal at 3000 a day." Who would you rather be a Chuck or Larry....

[Häakon]

Reputable places all over the country (Clairmont (http://www.clairmont.com/catalog/pages/digital/digital_camera_acc.html), Abel Cine (http://www.abelcine.com/store/home.php?cat=328), Fletcher Chicago (http://www.fletch.com/rentalpanasonichvx200.html)) are still renting their fixed-lens HVXs for $400 a day or more. People are voting in this poll to rent their RED (even without a lens) for under 5?? (Okay, I know Stephen just likes to stir the pot - but there are a handful of others!)

It's understandable that given the camera's price in relation to a Varicam or F900 (even though it does considerably more), a price shakeup is imminent in the rental industry - but just because Jim has managed to slash the MSRP barrier doesn't mean it's a toy. Of course, anyone is free to do whatever they like with their cameras, but the way I see it, RED is a piece of professional equipment and considerable investment. Mine won't be going out without a DT and certainly not for sub-$500 prices.

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Häakon,

I am not stirring but 2%+ is historically a very high price.

With all due respect an HVX will have a shorter useful life (IMHO) than a Red. As you say a lens is included, there is not much chance for the rental house to make the order bigger, so the administrative costs of renting a HVX are proportionally higher.

The first cameras will quite likely rent at a premium, however until one knows what functions are enabled on the cameras scheduled for delivery this month, we will have to wait and see.

I don't have a horse in the digital race, I just choose how to spend producers money most cost effectively.

Stephen

[david farland]

And if it screw's up! Guess who I'm coming after to pay for my re-shoot. If you can't pay for it I assure you, your camera is going home with me, and then-some.
..

You mean you're gonna 'steal' my (or someone's) camera,....and stating it in public...phew!! what's your name...producer from Murrieta, CA?

Son, this is the real world and I'd be charging you for damages & theft of my equipment unless you showed me your Stupidity clause where I idemnified your team for bouncing round my drive, after not backing up all day.

Cheers,

David

[Andrew Benz]

You mean you're gonna 'steal' my (or someone's) camera,....and stating it in public...phew!! what's your name...producer from Murrieta, CA?

Son, this is the real world and I'd be charging you for damages & theft of my equipment unless you showed me your Stupidity clause where I idemnified your team for bouncing round my drive, after not backing up all day.

Cheers,

David

LMAO, well put Dave!:biggrin:

[Mark L. Pederson]

Reputable places all over the country (Clairmont (http://www.clairmont.com/catalog/pages/digital/digital_camera_acc.html), Abel Cine (http://www.abelcine.com/store/home.php?cat=328), Fletcher Chicago (http://www.fletch.com/rentalpanasonichvx200.html)) are still renting their fixed-lens HVXs for $400 a day or more. People are voting in this poll to rent their RED (even without a lens) for under 5?? (Okay, I know Stephen just likes to stir the pot - but there are a handful of others!)

It's understandable that given the camera's price in relation to a Varicam or F900 (even though it does considerably more), a price shakeup is imminent in the rental industry - but just because Jim has managed to slash the MSRP barrier doesn't mean it's a toy. Of course, anyone is free to do whatever they like with their cameras, but the way I see it, RED is a piece of professional equipment and considerable investment. Mine won't be going out without a DT and certainly not for sub-$500 prices.

IMO - THIS is the SMARTEST post I have seen yet regarding renting the RED.

It sure seems to me that there are a lot of folks who are pretty GREEN about to go RED - which it's all good, and actually pretty exciting -

I learned almost everything of "worth" in my life the HARD WAY - I am so used to falling on my face that I start picking myself up before I even hit the ground -

Hopefully, this forum will save more than a few folks some pain -

"Mine won't be going out without a DT and certainly not for sub-$500 prices" - is the ONLY way to go for a WHILE ...

[Michael Lindsay]

Food for thought about new kit hire prices..

got 7 days of shooting starting next week... wanted a f23: sans lenses quoted £2000/day thats $4000 for you US readers..... I can get an Ok 435 package and a good few feet of film for that...

Red can't come too soon...

Michael

[Curran Giddens]

The reason I voted for <$500 is because I'm only just starting my business and I have absolutely zero clients. As soon as my schedule starts filling up I reserve the right to raise the price for any new bookings. I would prefer not to have to rent my RED out, but since I don't have any of my own immediate projects planned, I may as well rent it out. Besides, most of my own stuff will be shot in a greenscreen studio, and that can be done whenever the camera is not rented out. I just don't want to spend all my money on such an incredible system and then have it just sit there....

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Curran,

Be aware that raising your prices is a very difficult thing to achieve in practice, almost impossible with existing clients.

Stephen


The reason I voted for <$500 is because I'm only just starting my business and I have absolutely zero clients. As soon as my schedule starts filling up I reserve the right to raise the price for any new bookings. I would prefer not to have to rent my RED out, but since I don't have any of my own immediate projects planned, I may as well rent it out. Besides, most of my own stuff will be shot in a greenscreen studio, and that can be done whenever the camera is not rented out. I just don't want to spend all my money on such an incredible system and then have it just sit there....

[Martin Drew]

I sort of agree with Stephen, that ultimately the rental price will be low. Rental houses will not be looking to make a profit on RedOne hire, they will make it on all the extras. Individuals renting out their camera will also rent as part of a larger package, possibly including themselves, so they would price the body low to appear competitive. However, if I adjust for this "loss leader" element in the pricing I reckon $501 to $800 is probably reasonable. Incidentally I think the price of F900 rental or cost of shooting film is totally irrelevant if one is considering the rental market longer term

Early reservation holders may well be able to charge quite a premium initially, but the more interesting question is what kind of rental prices will be realistic in the medium short term, say 6 months to 1 year from now. When the rental market is possibly still undersupplied, but any initial silliness is passed.

M

[Antoine Baumann]

"Mine won't be going out without a DT and certainly not for sub-$500 prices" - is the ONLY way to go for a WHILE ...

sub-$500 is for RED body, EVF and production pack. You need at least Digital mag, batteries, lenses, and certainly matte box, filters, may be you as DIT, and more... before having a package that will actually be able to record something.
With an HVX, you got everything for your 400$ a day (which still semms expensive to me... last year I rented one HVX at 250$ for 3 days).

That's why I voted for sub-$500 (which could be 499$), as you have to add some gears that cost quite a lot.

antoine.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Reputable places all over the country (Clairmont (http://www.clairmont.com/catalog/pages/digital/digital_camera_acc.html), Abel Cine (http://www.abelcine.com/store/home.php?cat=328), Fletcher Chicago (http://www.fletch.com/rentalpanasonichvx200.html)) are still renting their fixed-lens HVXs for $400 a day or more. People are voting in this poll to rent their RED (even without a lens) for under 5?? (Okay, I know Stephen just likes to stir the pot - but there are a handful of others!)

Different prices, different markets, I suppose...

Going rate for HVX200 around here is $250/day and that typically includes 2 8GB P2 cards. For $165/day I can get a SONY Z1U... $550/day gets me a Varicam package w/ Canon 10X lens. $850/day gets me the Varicam package with Sachtler tripod system and some other goodies.

Abelcine... $425/day for a bare HVX200? Seriously? I couldn't even rent mine for that when it was brand new and I was the only one in town who owned one.

Anyway, I'm still not planning to rent out my RED.

[Chris Parker]

A lot of rental houses have list prices that are higher than their acutal rates, which I suspect is the same at AbelCine. I am sure that if you are a PM who uses them often, they offer generous 'discounts' off their book rate.

I would personally think that $800/day for the body, EVF, and produciton pack would make sense. 3-day weeks are also the norm in this biz, so keep that in mind.

[Martin Drew]

Reputable places all over the country (Clairmont (http://www.clairmont.com/catalog/pages/digital/digital_camera_acc.html), Abel Cine (http://www.abelcine.com/store/home.php?cat=328), Fletcher Chicago (http://www.fletch.com/rentalpanasonichvx200.html)) are still renting their fixed-lens HVXs for $400 a day or more.

Interestingly I just had a look at other rental prices at Abel Cinetech

Panasonic AG-HVX200 HD Camera. Daily Rate: $425.00
Aaton A-Minima Camera. Daily Rate: $225.00

Now the Aaton costs about $15000, so it tends to support Stephens argument.

M

[Matthew Rogers]

The thing is, do you really want someone who can afford a $500 rental playing with the RED? Will they even have insurance for the rental? Around here the RED is going to replace VariCam and 16MM rentals--both which run $800-$1500 a day.

This is how I break it down for my camera.

$600 - Camera Body + RED Drive + Pro Production Pack
$100 - 2 Batts and charger
$50 - Matte box
$50 - Follow Focus
$300 - Cooke 18-100

So I'm looking around $1100 a day. Heck, a Varicam here is $1100 a day without mattebox or FF, and not as good a lens.

Matthew

[Champe Barton]

A few thoughts on pricing:

It's a lot easier to start high and come down than start low and try to go up.

I'll be charging about what my F900 was getting and I'll be going with it as owner/operator, DP or DIT. My F900 will be available for rent at a discount as long as a valid insurance certificate is supplied and I know someone on the crew. The Florida market where I work has a real mix of professional, highly qualified and decent people all the way down to pond scum, so one has to be cautious.

It's been my experience that most honorable people are willing to pay a reasonable rate for equipment but knowledge and experience are the added value you can bring to the package and people are willing to pay for that. If not, you probably don't want to work for them.

The less you charge for a job the more work you'll have to do.

Taking really low budget jobs attracts more really low budget jobs.

Under pricing equipment in a market hurts everybody.

Be fair and build relationships.

Just some thoughts,

Champe

[Steve Freebairn]

It should be interesting to see where the price ends up adjusting too. We plan on renting our Red with a ton of accessories, but more importantly with a workflow that gets the clients data to them safely with backups. After the initial recording of the data on either CF or the Reddrive, the data will always have a backup (you can PM me if you're interested in our plan) on data tape and hdds.

I think that the workflow and knowledge of how to handle the information once it is recorded will end up being more profitable than even the camera rental itself. Eventually people will be able to just buy the camera, but that doesn't mean they'll know how to get their data safely and more securely than film from the set to their NLE.

We'll be doing 3 day weeks and other deals with clients, but it definitely won't be sub 500 unless something really sweet is included in the deal :unsure:

[Mark B.]

I doubt I'd rent out the body and EVF for less than $1k per day (that's for the long term, for the high-demand initial period I'd be asking more than that). My asking price would likely not be the lowest in town, but it's what I'd need to be paid to feel justified in letting someone else muck about with my camera.

I'm not about to get involved in price-wars with the rental houses, they're already geared up to win that challenge. But the rental house cameras get used a lot, so maybe renters will pay a little extra to use a RedOne that has low mileage. Same deal with other private owners... the lower their asking price the more their cameras are going to get used and abused. For the safest shoot, you'd want to rent a camera that rents for a higher price.

[Stephen Williams]

For the safest shoot, you'd want to rent a camera that rents for a higher price.

Hi,

A good rental house will have back up cameras available for there clients if the worst should happen. Do you have any contingency plans?

Stephen

[Nook Kim]

Hi,

Based on all of those posts that I have been reading regarding renting my Red One camera,
I've come up with an interesting approach to generate a good amount of profit.

Just my answer to this poll, I am planning on pricing my Red One camera body, Production Pack,
Power Pack, EVF & LCD, and a Red Drive for around $600 per day. Okay, it sounds very cheap
for a 4K solution to me. However, there will be additional charges per anything else that the user
wants to take with this package.

I'm sure people will want to get a second Red Drive = Additional cost.
A set of lenses (either Nikon's or Red's) = Additional cost.
Other recording medium than Red Drive = Additional (or different) cost.
Mattbox or FF or Tri-pod = Additional cost.

I could go on with other goodies that people might want to take with them, but you get the point.
Just one more thing I'd like to point out is that, like a lot of people here, I'm not going to
let my camera going out without me as DIT or 1AC or Operator or DP. Of course, this will
cost them an additional fee. In addition to me going out as DIT or whatever, they will be charged
for what data back-up solution they want to have. I will offer whatever makes my customer
feel safe with the data they are getting, but it will require them money to feel safe. This is
not a camera that you just rent without planning for the workflow and get crewed up.
I will offer my knowledge and skills, and they will pay for the insured workflow.

Of course, I am going to offer better rates for a week/month rental. And I am making all my rates
negotiable. It's more fun this way, even though I always tend to do a favor for others. (BTW, I haven't
rented out any equipment, so you know)

I hope this will ring the bell in the back of your head. There is so much possible incomes
we can generate with this oh-so-versatile camera package. Just make sure you give them
what they pay for. We will have to know in's and out's of the camera and it's workflow, or you
will not be asked back when something goes wrong with the camera or your workflow.

One thing that I'm a bit confused reading the posts is that some people suggest to have
my own insurance on the camera. However, I will only require the production to include
my camera in their film insurance. That's how I have been dealing with rental houses when
I rented equipment from them, and I'm not going to do anything differently.

If we are smart and know what we are doing, there is a lot of potential for renting the camera
and selling our knowledge, I think.


Best wishes,

PS. I'm going to provide a back-up camera, too. I don't have a second Red One, but that's what
you guys are for. :) Of course, I will pay for that.

[donatello b]

"as a Producer your camera is like 1/80th of my film's day cost. And if it screw's up! Guess who I'm coming after to pay for my re-shoot. If you can't pay for it I assure you, your camera is going home with me, and then-some."

if you rent from a owner-op or a big rental house - they do not cover expenses for a re-shoot ... that is covered by production insurance ..
if you decide NOT to have production insurance then it all falls on YOU.

[Andy Jackson]

Once the camera is released and there are real-world reports and usage available, I wouldn't be surprised to see RED have a two-year waiting list. That being said, my RED will be irreplaceable (at least for a while). Until RED is available for same-day purchase, we will be requiring an onsite consultant (essentially a bodyguard) or one of our own DP's with EVERY rental.

A key component that is being completely left out by rental houses is postproduction. This is where RED will be saving real productions the most money. Our company will not just be offering a RED rental, but rather a full RED workflow. Even if we're only involved up until the point we create ingestible, editable files for the client, we've already done more than any rental house will offer. It's our job to save our clients money by giving them the easiest and most appropriate workflow to accomplish their final output goals.

Andrew Jackson
Ichabod Studios

[Paul Hazlett]

What I've been thinking is,

$1K for my RedOne, Prod Bundle, Red Zoom, EVF, Flash, Harddrive
$1.5K with me coming on board as tech/operator
$2-4K for me to DP with the RED

I'm probably not going to rent mine out unless I can come along with, even if they don't want me to operate..but if they don't want me to operate, they better be paying a lot for the rental of the camera.. I'm not buying this thing to just rent out!

I can't imagine renting out my RedOne to a production with insurance, then having them drop it off a cliff, having to file an insurance claim, waiting over a year to get another RedOne. I think I will stipulate that if the camera is destroyed or stolen, I would be paid $100,000 in compensation, no joke..

That being said, I'm looking forward to the high demand that will flood the market once I and all of you receive our Reds. I'm hoping that pays the camera off in a year.

I am with you here, I am not a rental house so If my Red goes down I will lose
not its rental potential but my day rate as well. I will have a group of guys I know and trust to go out as techs if the client doesnt need a shooter and I am not available.

[Paul Hazlett]

A few thoughts on pricing:


The less you charge for a job the more work you'll have to do.

Taking really low budget jobs attracts more really low budget jobs.

Under pricing equipment in a market hurts everybody.

Be fair and build relationships.

Just some thoughts,

Champe

This is very true and its hard for some people to understand. I heard
of a period back in the late 90's in the toronto market where shooters
were cutting each other so bad that they were just giving there gear
away to get a day rate.

Do a good job, build a strong client base and the real clients will be happy
to pay a fair rate. emphasis on fair.

[Paul Hazlett]

I'm not about to get involved in price-wars with the rental houses, they're already geared up to win that challenge. But the rental house cameras get used a lot, so maybe renters will pay a little extra to use a RedOne that has low mileage. Same deal with other private owners... the lower their asking price the more their cameras are going to get used and abused. For the safest shoot, you'd want to rent a camera that rents for a higher price.

I have already talked to a local rental house about having my Red in there
inventory and when they get a call, I go out and do the job and we share
the wealth.

[Russ McDonald]

Thats just how we roll here in the Inland Empire, Dave and Benz! (Just kidding)

The point I was trying to make is this.

If I'm Shooting 35mm, I put about 5000 feet of film in the can a day. Then I send it to Delux, lets say for the sake of debate, something happens in the lab, human error or machine malfunction it gets destroyed, they have vary expensive insurance that indemnifies them from such a disaster. they write a check, I was inconvenienced, but I didn't loose money.

It may be just a camera gig for you, but these films are the culmination of years of work, passion, desire, and dreams. I don't know what kind of koom-by-yaa feature film environment you work in there (again I'm kidding, I know Austrailians are extreamly talented and serious professionals.) but here in the big leagues, that makes you liable and you are in an actionable possition, if you don't have the that expensive insurance. you're going to get sued. Then I am going to lean your property within legal means.

Donatello 95% of the sharks in this pond are not going to let it go, believe me. New and unproven technologies is a whole different category of risk management for insurance companies. If the fault can be tied to your equipment, your in for rough waters. Even if you win in court it's going to be expensive for you, getting your own insurance to CYA mite be prudent choice.

If all you took away from my post was that, you need to read it again. All you guys can make allot more money for your gear and your time. Maybe the best way to approach rental fees, and I'm going to type slow for Dave..... Should be final output.

HD 1080p.... 1200 a day

2k..... 2000 a day


4k..... 2500+

You get the point, that way you still stay competitive in your individual environments, but a premium service demands a premium fee.


•••Note to Dave•••

I kidd because, I love. I have nothing but respect for you brother. I'm playful smart ass. But your an Australian I think you handle it. Please send me you contact info. If I end up shooting down there I can throw some work your way.

[Chris Parker]

Our company will not just be offering a RED rental, but rather a full RED workflow. Even if we're only involved up until the point we create ingestible, editable files for the client, we've already done more than any rental house will offer. It's our job to save our clients money by giving them the easiest and most appropriate workflow to accomplish their final output goals.

Andrew Jackson
Ichabod Studios

What is your workflow plan to get the client editable files?

[Chris Parker]

that makes you liable and you are in an actionable possition, if you don't have the that expensive insurance. you're going to get sued. Then I am going to lean your property within legal means. 95% of the sharks in this pond are not going to let it go, believe me.



The question is...if a red drive fails on set during the backup process, is it like a scratched neg? If so, that would fall directly under your 'big league' insurance.

If it is like a problem during transfer, then it may fall under the RED workflow company's insurance.

I am sure that both ways will be done, depending on the deal struck between camera rental place and production.

[Julian Banos]

I will be renting my cameras in Mexico City and I am trying to get everyone else with reservation here to have minimum charges, something that competes with Varicam and CineAlta, but keeping in mind that the RED One is a much better camera.
I personally dont buy into the whole 2% or 1% idea for this product. At least not now. But I still have not figured out the whole post-production part of it. And how much should I be charging. Anyone has any thoughts on this? Or should this be another post?

Thanks

[Andy Jackson]

What is your workflow plan to get the client editable files?

REDCINE, of course. Since we'll have a staff member included with every RED rental, we'll be providing data backups and on-site dailies. I probably have not been paying attention as much as I should have, but as far as I know, initially only RED owners will have licensing to REDCINE. We'll provide either full res or offline editable files, depending on the NLE and final output intentions of the client.

The best and most cost-effective method for our clients *should* be to go with our company through their entire production, start to finish. We've got several experienced editors in the area that we hire out depending on the genre/style of the production. Keeping as much of the process as possible in-house will keep their production extremely consistent.

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

I think you will find Deluxe will replace the film only, thats it! You have to insure the film for its full replacement value. Its the same for your media.

Stephen


Thats just how we roll here in the Inland Empire, Dave and Benz! (Just kidding)

The point I was trying to make is this.

If I'm Shooting 35mm, I put about 5000 feet of film in the can a day. Then I send it to Delux, lets say for the sake of debate, something happens in the lab, human error or machine malfunction it gets destroyed, they have vary expensive insurance that indemnifies them from such a disaster. they write a check, I was inconvenienced, but I didn't loose money.

[Chris Parker]

REDCINE, of course. Since we'll have a staff member included with every RED rental, we'll be providing data backups and on-site dailies. I probably have not been paying attention as much as I should have, but as far as I know, initially only RED owners will have licensing to REDCINE. We'll provide either full res or offline editable files, depending on the NLE and final output intentions of the client.

The best and most cost-effective method for our clients *should* be to go with our company through their entire production, start to finish. We've got several experienced editors in the area that we hire out depending on the genre/style of the production. Keeping as much of the process as possible in-house will keep their production extremely consistent.

Gotcha. But what is your on-set data management and backing up workflow?

[Nik Manning]

Truth be told about Red rental prices is that once there are more than 1,000 on the street the rental price will drop very low. Think of all the people who will just barely be able to afford this camera. They have to pay their credit card bill every month so if someone wants to rent it for $400 a day it is rented. That is how it goes.

For the most part I see a package going for between $1000-$1500 for the first 500 and $800-$1200 for the next 500 after that mostly between $750-$1000. I think folks renting will think I should just buy it but they might not get them when they need them. That is the problem.

[Andy Jackson]

Gotcha. But what is your on-set data management and backing up workflow?

Backups will stay entirely in REDCODE RAW... it's the most space effective and lossless way to go. Offloads and backup to two external drives should be more than sufficient. Wow, it feels good to say that considering this is 4k footage!

I've always been a PC guy, so it pains me to say this, but we're planning on having a MacBook Pro on set. It's unclear what the render times are out of REDCINE, but we'll at least be able to do some REDQUICK on set. Dailies should be possible at least with low-quality settings.

Full workflow is unclear since we still don't have full details on how REDCINE will operate.

[Michael Hastings]

Until there are hundreds of reds available it should rent for the $1250/day or so that a Sony F900 does - or even more initially. Initially it will be a little different than renting a regular camera because for a while there won't be any replacements if it is damaged or stolen.

Personally I think rental rates for RED will be like this:

FIRST month: name your price could be in the $2500/day range.
2ND to FOURTH: month $1250 -1500/day.
FIFTH month on: Price will gradually decline to about $500/day to $750/day depending on package.

As I said initially RED will be different because there are no replacements. So early rentals should have some sort of bonding associated with it and/or a contract stating that if lost stolen or damaged it will be reimbursed at a price much higher than purchase price say 35K to 40K and have the insurance company sign off on it.


One bad drive and your screwed, as a Producer your camera is like 1/80th of my film's day cost. And if it screw's up! Guess who I'm coming after to pay for my re-shoot..

Drive failure or electronic component failure is generally unpredictable and even a perfectly maintained system can fail at any time.

I have done rentals for underwater systems for 25 years and some of the issues are the same.

Anyone renting my RED will sign a fairly severe liability waiver stating that our rentals are only done on the condition that we accept no contingent liability whatsoever, and that we do not have the financial ability, insurance, equipment redundancy, on-staff technical support, etc. to reasonably be able to accept any contingent liability and therefore they accept the risk and the reasonableness of our position. If they have any reliability concerns they should rent a backup (or multiples), shoot redundantly, etc.

In the early months it will be included that there are in fact no comparable systems available for the same price so they accept the risks of using a revolutionary and somewhat experimental camera system and workflow. Again, their contingency plans should include backups, other (much more expensive) alternative systems, etc. If they can't accept those terms, then I can't afford to rent to them. (and others probably can't either)

PS I am planning shoots after thanksgiving - which means RED #206 should be available for rent between Oct10 (if scheduled delivery is correct) to November 20th. and then a little before Christmas and beyond.

[Häakon]

The thing is, do you really want someone who can afford a $500 rental playing with the RED? Will they even have insurance for the rental? Around here the RED is going to replace VariCam and 16MM rentals--both which run $800-$1500 a day.



The less you charge for a job the more work you'll have to do.

Taking really low budget jobs attracts more really low budget jobs.

Under pricing equipment in a market hurts everybody.

My feelings exactly. I just have the thought that with a lot of individual/independent users buying the camera (who would not have afforded a Varicam or F900, for example) wanting to get as much return for their investment possible, there will be users willing to rent it to others at the $400-$500 range. In other words, if the option someone presents to the owner is "all I can afford is $400," and they reason that $400 is better than $0 in their pocket, they're going to take up the offer.

I'm just not personally interested in passing my camera around to non-professional productions, because I know how the cheap stuff gets beaten up out there. The more you pay for something, the more you should want to take care of it - that applies to both an owner and a renter.

[Russ McDonald]

Now were talking, good stuff here folks. This is what I was looking to see discussed. I like the numbers I'm seeing in this poll.

[Ramesh Jai]

I think one reason RED is being made is to put the best (visual) quality in the hands of as many people (film-makers) as possible at the lowest possible price.

The price of Red is the real revolution here. So how can we now turn around and start charging ridiculously high rates to other (low budget) producers? I think anything over $500 a day for just the body and EVF is exploitative and contrary to the RED principle. C'mon. Are we turning into Sony now? Just because we have RED we can charge anything we feel like?

I've spoken my mind. Let your criticism of my views be constructive. I am entitled to my opinion.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

...here in the big leagues, that makes you liable and you are in an actionable possition, if you don't have the that expensive insurance. you're going to get sued. Then I am going to lean your property within legal means.

Donatello 95% of the sharks in this pond are not going to let it go, believe me. New and unproven technologies is a whole different category of risk management for insurance companies. If the fault can be tied to your equipment, your in for rough waters.

This is a very good point, and one that scares the crap out of me.

My policy will be instant backup on site, meaning the red-drive comes off the back and gets backed up to a RAID 1 right away.

It seems to me that the smart thing to do would be to get the producer to sign a waiver of liability regarding exactly this. Like someone said, well maintained brand new drives can fail unexpectedly. I think this would be covered as an act of god under the company's production insurance.

If they want more security than that, we can use compact flash and do the same thing.

[Chris Parker]

I think one reason RED is being made is to put the best (visual) quality in the hands of as many people (film-makers) as possible at the lowest possible price.

The price of Red is the real revolution here. So how can we now turn around and start charging ridiculously high rates to other (low budget) producers? I think anything over $500 a day for just the body and EVF is exploitative and contrary to the RED principle. C'mon. Are we turning into Sony now? Just because we have RED we can charge anything we feel like?

I've spoken my mind. Let your criticism of my views be constructive. I am entitled to my opinion.

It is posters like this who will have their RED out on set with some jackass out of film school who gave them $400 for the day, and return it beat to shit.

Running a professional rental service takes time and money. The purchase price of the camera is only one place that rental has to cover. Maintenence, overhead, etc. all take money. My clients wouldn't dream of renting a camera from some schlep who says he'll 'give 'em a great deal'. They would much prefer to spend a few hundred dollars extra to get a bulletproof system (with backups) from someone who they trust.

[Russ McDonald]

This what I'm talking about, people the workflow and data management is additional cost, we have to account for. That means more mouths to feed, Proud red parents

[Chris Parker]

This what I'm talking about, people the workflow and data management is additional cost, we have to account for. That means more moths to feed, Proud red parents

Of course the data workflow is an extra cost. On top of the rental of the camera.

So is the video assist portion of the scenerio an extra cost.

So is the follow focus/matte box.

This thread initially only talked about the rental for the basic package. Extras are extras.

[Russ McDonald]

That is the point, data management is part of the basic package. With this system of image acquisition (it's my word of the week) It's not something you can separate from the camera. It's what makes it the innovative (last weeks word) and groundbreaking system that it is.

[Brook Willard]

A few other prices that some people may be interested. I know I've seen some elsewhere in this thread, but here are a few more/repeats.

HVXs can rent for >$500/day
DVXs can rent for >$400/day
SR2s can rent for $200/day
D20s can rent for $3,000/day without recording solution.
F23s can rent for $3,200/day with recording solution.
Origin rents for $1,750/day without recording solution.
Arri ST/LTs rent for $1,400/day without magazines.

HVX DITs are generally $500/day
High-end system DITs are generally between A Cam Op and DP scale.

Just something to think about.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Yes but I wouldn't expect to pay a RED DIT what an 'RGB or YUV' DIT makes. Mostly because I'm hoping his job is significantly less difficult and critical.

[Chris Parker]

That is the point, data management is part of the basic package. With this system of image acquisition (it's my word of the week) It's not something you can separate from the camera. It's what makes it the innovative (last weeks word) and groundbreaking system that it is.

Data management is NOT part of the basic pacakge. It is an extra item, with many options. Some low budget music video may not want anything except two red drives to fill up and have some production manager-type download (or their buddy who is editing).

On the other hand, high end commercials would demand that a full, fail-proof backup system be implemented, and would be willing to pay more for that 'extra'.

[Russ McDonald]

I respect you but strongly disagree. Regardless of the output it has to be done by somebody.


If Brook is up for it, lets spin this thread a little.

Bid my 4k project people.

Two Cameras matched primes (use the red prime set as a reference) arri mb20 matte box and fallow focus. Both read zooms. Redcode archived, 1080p for the offline edit.

It's 118 pages, two pages a day schedule(60 days) with 15:1 shooting ratio camera. that rounds up to 30 hours of total footage.

Just an intellectual exercise. So feel free to refine and expand the gear and personnel. Remember if I was shooting super35mm, Just processing,telecining, sound syncing Dailies, and HDsr transfers is going to run me about 2000 a day.

[Chris Parker]

I respect you but strongly disagree. Regardless of the output it has to be done by somebody.


I couldn't agree with you more. Yes, someone has to do it. But since there are so many different options on how to do it (with different costs) it is an EXTRA, not part of a basic package. That's all I am saying.

No one will rent the REDflash for the same as the red drives, as they cost way more.

No one will manage UNCOMPRESSED data for anywhere near the same cost as any of the REDCODE options, as that is a whole different ballgame.

Anyways, yes it will be done, but charged as an extra.

[Russ McDonald]

When the client calls, he or she is depending on you to tell what they need. I'm just saying that at the end of the day your not going to hand them A roll of exposed film or a magnetic tape he never has to see you again.

I know for a fact that they aren't walking off with your red drive. If they rent it they got to have some tangible thing to work with when you say good bye. There has to a minimum output that has to come with the package.

[Chris Parker]

We are agreeing really, but just disagreeing on semantics. I agree that they will 100% NEED some sort of image data management. Our difference lies in how we'd approach the clients. I would give them a price with NO MEDIA or data management. Now, maybe this price would be lower than yours as yours would include some sort of data management.

Then, I would walk them through the options and recommend the best workflow for them and charge this as an extra. Then, for my 'special' clients (you know, all of them - wink wink) I would offer them a package discount for everything thrown together as a package.

So you see, we do agree, but are going about it differently - from a marketing perspective.

[Brook Willard]

I honestly expect that a RED DIT will be able to pull roughly $1,000/day... at least at first. Set up the camera, give the AC a basic rundown, copy and confirm the footage to a computer/RAID system, troubleshoot if necessary, etc. When knowledge becomes wider spread, that number will drop... but in my opinion, a RED DIT should never make under $600/10+2xOT.

Remember that my opinions are always very narrative cine-oriented. The ENG/EFP/wedding [grouped together for simplicity, not to offend] folks may disagree.

[Russ McDonald]

Skip In the immortal words of Daffy Duck. " You have unmitigated gaul sir, and I demand satisfaction!"

Super Soakers at dawn!!!!!

[Chris Parker]

I honestly expect that a RED DIT will be able to pull roughly $1,000/day

And how does one become a RED DIT? Is Red going to offer any course to become 'certified' or anything like that? Or are we on our own to figure it all out. Either way would work, just curious as a nice little 3-day workshop on RED DIT would be nice.

[Chris Parker]

In the immortal words of Daffy Duck. " You have unmitigated gaul sir, and I demand satisfaction!"

Super Soakers at dawn!!!!!

hahahaha

[Russ McDonald]

Brook are ok with the exercise purposed.

[Brook Willard]

It's all the same to me, discussions run freely.

[Scott Webster]

I honestly expect that a RED DIT will be able to pull roughly $1,000/day... at least at first. Set up the camera, give the AC a basic rundown, copy and confirm the footage to a computer/RAID system, troubleshoot if necessary, etc. When knowledge becomes wider spread, that number will drop... but in my opinion, a RED DIT should never make under $600/10+2xOT.

Remember that my opinions are always very narrative cine-oriented. The ENG/EFP/wedding [grouped together for simplicity, not to offend] folks may disagree.

Brook, Only in the US could you command that type of rate. Would that rate include a Macbook raid rig? You've just given more reason for Sound Recordists to become more bitter and twisted than they already are :wink:

[Russ McDonald]

All right then Man up or Woman up if your Dave (sorry Dave I just cant help myself)

Anybody have a production question they need for the bid.

[Paul Hazlett]

Skip In the immortal words of Daffy Duck. " You have unmitigated gaul sir, and I demand satisfaction!"

Super Soakers at dawn!!!!!

in the carrot juice soaked words of Bugs Bunny "of course you know this means WAR!!

[Russ McDonald]

Alright man up Phaz where you at (G). Do you think this bid exercise is worth the time.

[Paul Hazlett]

I respect you but strongly disagree. Regardless of the output it has to be done by somebody.


If Brook is up for it, lets spin this thread a little.

Bid my 4k project people.

Two Cameras matched primes (use the red prime set as a reference) arri mb20 matte box and fallow focus. Both read zooms. Redcode archived, 1080p for the offline edit.

It's 118 pages, two pages a day schedule(60 days) with 15:1 shooting ratio camera. that rounds up to 30 hours of total footage.

Just an intellectual exercise. So feel free to refine and expand the gear and personnel. Remember if I was shooting super35mm, Just processing,telecining, sound syncing Dailies, and HDsr transfers is going to run me about 2000 a day.

At three day weeks and data back up included I would ballpark 67500
based on 63 days ( easier math) 9 weeks at 2500 a day all inclusive bells and
whistles.

multiply for as many cameras as you want.

I would require a good quality string cheese at craft services though. A deal
breaker for some but thats the way it has to be.

[Russ McDonald]

Perhaps a good brie, and triskets

126000, for film processing package. Not including the cost of the camera package.

You can get more!!!!

[Paul Hazlett]

could get more, but my red would be paid for and I make money. client saves
money calls me next time, everybody wins. I like charging whats fair not how much. On the East coast this would be a good deal and a money maker.

[Stephen Williams]

Perhaps a good brie, and triskets

126000, for film processing package. Not including the cost of the camera package.

You can get more!!!!

Hi,

And that's the crunch time, somebody gets greedy & producers revert to shooting 35mm. I am shooting a film in October, We can get a deal on the film (read free), so it looks like shooting 35mm without a DI will be cheaper than digital.

Stephen

[Ramesh Jai]

It is posters like this who will have their RED out on set with some jackass out of film school who gave them $400 for the day, and return it beat to shit.

Running a professional rental service takes time and money. The purchase price of the camera is only one place that rental has to cover. Maintenence, overhead, etc. all take money. My clients wouldn't dream of renting a camera from some schlep who says he'll 'give 'em a great deal'. They would much prefer to spend a few hundred dollars extra to get a bulletproof system (with backups) from someone who they trust.
Jackass out of film school..? Is that what film schools produce where you come from?

Frankly I have nothing against charging whatever you want for your talent. It can be $1 to $10m.. it's your uniqueness that earns you your price. I still maintain my views on the price of renting just the Red body and EVF.

[Paul Hazlett]

Hi,

And that's the crunch time, somebody gets greedy & producers revert to shooting 35mm. I am shooting a film in October, We can get a deal on the film (read free), so it looks like shooting 35mm without a DI will be cheaper than digital.

Stephen

my point exactly. Part of the appeal of red is less costly aquisition

[I Bloom]

Have you heard the joke about the guy who came to fix the companies computer upon which their entire bussiness was dependant. He came in clicked on a few menus and the computer was fixed. Then he sent in an invoice for $10,000. The President of the company called and protested saying that he had only pressed a few buttons. He said allright, I'll send in my itemized invoice. The new invoice listed "1. Pressing buttons $1" "2. Knowing which buttons to press. $9,999."

Corny right I know. I think if you are a RED reservation holder, some of this logic applies to you. You made a smart and timely investment, you should reap the benefits of the postion you created for yourself in the market. This is no different than buying stock in a startup company.

If you are automatically lowering your prices before you have even had a chance to see what the market will bear, please reconsider.

Consider for a moment the word 'value' and please ask yourself, just exactly how is it measured and how does it relate to price. If you believe there has ever been some sort of direct relationship between value and price then I'm afraid you are sadly mistaken and likely to be trod on in this here capitalist system. There is only a tenuous relationship between price, and the cost to make something. There is only a tenuous relationship between price and the value that can be created by something. In fact as is proven over and over to us every day price is only determined by percieved cost to produce, percieved value and percieved demand. It's all psycological, based on the flow of information, nothing more. So find the price that is going to best fit your market and do so by starting high and negotiating with your potential clients.

This is a game that goes both ways, as you sell the percieved value of your services, pushing it higher, your clients are selling the percieved value of their opportunity, as they attempt to bring your prices down.

I'd like you to encourage you to step up your game and play a little harder.


The reason I voted for <$500 is because I'm only just starting my business and I have absolutely zero clients. As soon as my schedule starts filling up I reserve the right to raise the price for any new bookings. I would prefer not to have to rent my RED out, but since I don't have any of my own immediate projects planned, I may as well rent it out. Besides, most of my own stuff will be shot in a greenscreen studio, and that can be done whenever the camera is not rented out. I just don't want to spend all my money on such an incredible system and then have it just sit there....

I have to disagree with your logic. I really respect your work and I think you are selling yourself short. You have a lot of technical ability and skill. You and your camera, are rare and worth a lot of money.

By saying that you will lower your prices immediately in order to attract clients, you are presupposing failure. Curran, I'd like to persuade you to take a different strategy. You have a month or so before you start working your RED. You should consider advertising, increasing your footprint, finding clients who are willing to pay a fair price for your gear and services. You will make more money, have more time and money for your own projects and you will be working with professionals who can help you to expand your knowledge and your network.

Lowering your prices immediately and trying to make up the difference on volume will lead, I believe, to failure, wasted time and hassle. This seems counterintuitive but I think its true. I've been there, I know your strategy doesn't work.

Curran, I have a few contacts in production in Mass. PM me, I'd like to help you.

IBloom

[laguun]

Hi,

And that's the crunch time, somebody gets greedy & producers revert to shooting 35mm. I am shooting a film in October, We can get a deal on the film (read free), so it looks like shooting 35mm without a DI will be cheaper than digital.

Stephen

we will see more and more outstanding 35mm offers in the near future.

Fuji agreed to to fully sponsor (read free) a recent filmout (89 minutes) done here.

however, 35mm processing takes time. so if time isn´t a substantial part in your calculation, leave that out. and, when shooting in remote locations, having >10 hours of footage in a small box is quite a moneysaver as well.

working without di, as in the old days, certainly is cheaper. some people however prefer using the creative possibilities available.

[Russ McDonald]

Well sounds like, you like brie. And my word of the day is spreading.
I got a Viper quote for 7500 a day for two cams with bells and whistles, and there lining up for that rate guys.

Listen don't tell Dave I've been picking on him in this thread. He's Australian he'll escalate it to water balloons, then I have to go with buckets. Then he'll go garden hoses, I'm American I got to go fire trucks. All that collateral dampness. Mothers running with wet kids, their mascara running it would by aguageddon. I think in the interest of world dry-ness we should keep it between us.

[Russ McDonald]

Ibloom, Ballpark me for shooting in New York.

You can lead them to water, but you can't make them drink.

[Russ McDonald]

laguun can you put a link for that info please.

[Häakon]

I think if you are a RED reservation holder, some of this logic applies to you. You made a smart and timely investment, you should reap the benefits of the postion you created for yourself in the market. This is no different than buying stock in a startup company.

If you are automatically lowering your prices before you have even had a chance to see what the market will bear, please reconsider.

Consider for a moment the word 'value' and please ask yourself, just exactly how is it measured and how does it relate to price. If you believe there has ever been some sort of direct relationship between value and price then I'm afraid you are sadly mistaken and likely to be trod on in this here capitalist system.
Post of the year.

[I Bloom]

Post of the year.

:matrix:

[Mark L. Pederson]

They tell it like it is in Brooklyn.

[Russ McDonald]

Post of the year is right, well since I've been here anyway.

The pro passes the sacred knowledge down. It should be headed by everybody.

Ian you rock, I lay my super soaker at your feet good sir.

[Nathan Buxton]

In my opinion, the majority of you are dreaming.

Why do you think production companies who can afford to pay over $1000 a day would want to shoot on red? Sure, Red is a big buzzword nowadays, but it is not proven. There is no workflow that anyone is accustomed to. There is no way in my mind that there will be a surplus of demand for a red camera. At least not right away. After about 4-6 months there might be a surge since people will begin to be able to get comfortable with the camera.

People here talk as if this will be the day they receive their red one:

1: receive package in mail
2: open package and assemble accessories
3: shoot some beautiful images from your backyard
4: burn bluray disc, send to producers and wait for the cash to roll in

I believe it will be months and months of sitting on an investment waiting for ANY return. Mark my words.

I would pay $1000 a day for a red one and an operator. Anything more and it becomes an issue. Just because your camera will be one of the best out there (ideally) doesn't negate the fact that it costs less than $30,000.

[Russ McDonald]

Nathan what is your production background, and have you read the whole thread.

[david farland]

If I end up shooting down there I can throw some work your way.How about as the only person in this proposition that hasn’t threatened extortion, I hang on to my equipment.

But yeah, rates……well here’s the rate card of a respected supplier here who has ordered 4 Reds(#60’s & 700’s).
Page 16 - $A850 pd. http://www.lemac.com.au/rental/cat/BBDigitalSML.pdf (http://www.lemac.com.au/rental/cat/BBDigitalSML.pdf)
and whilst your wet dreams of 4K @ $2500 are ending I suggest reading their standard terms: http://www.lemac.com.au/rental/rental-terms.htm (http://www.lemac.com.au/rental/rental-terms.htm) , particularly their liability & insurance sections.
Hell I might even throw in a bank guarantee for the technologically or legally challenged or buffoon producer (could help myself but, hey…).

It’s all about risk……not moving until it’s properly mitigated. You should know stuff like Red drive (raid 1) recovery procedures, flash failure rates. I don’t hire a writer, give him an 80GB disk and say we’ll back it up when it’s full. Your back regime must be proportionate to risk of situation. Personally I’d be ensuring media is backed up at a rate commiserate of the cost of failure at any particular instant, and just shy of completely pissing the production team off by overly disrupting their daily workflow.
Cheers,
Dave

ps:....I’ll accept the super soaker gauntlet.

[Steve Sherrick]

In my opinion, the majority of you are dreaming.

Why do you think production companies who can afford to pay over $1000 a day would want to shoot on red? Sure, Red is a big buzzword nowadays, but it is not proven. There is no workflow that anyone is accustomed to. There is no way in my mind that there will be a surplus of demand for a red camera. At least not right away. After about 4-6 months there might be a surge since people will begin to be able to get comfortable with the camera.

People here talk as if this will be the day they receive their red one:

1: receive package in mail
2: open package and assemble accessories
3: shoot some beautiful images from your backyard
4: burn bluray disc, send to producers and wait for the cash to roll in

I believe it will be months and months of sitting on an investment waiting for ANY return. Mark my words.

I would pay $1000 a day for a red one and an operator. Anything more and it becomes an issue. Just because your camera will be one of the best out there (ideally) doesn't negate the fact that it costs less than $30,000.
I think you are looking at this all wrong. Those who are established DPs/Camera Ops have been telling their clients about the camera for a while and building up some interest. If they are really good at what they do, and there are many on this forum who are pretty darn good at what they do, then they will have an established client base who might have interest in shooting with the camera right out of the gate. Others have been marketing the camera and their service in other ways. Like anything else you have to have a plan when you invest money into something like this.

Having said that, sure, there will be some people who might find the camera sitting around with no takers. There is quite a wide variety of experience level in this community. Some people may take a little longer to get their feet wet with this kind of camera and they will need to see how they fit into the bigger picture. Others will be shooting on day one.

So, I think this also relates to the rental part of this. You charge what you can charge. There are a lot of variables.

1. Demand for the camera in your area
2. Your experience level. Are you a high in demand camera op or DP or DIT?
3. What kind of support are you offering?
4. Do you have a thriving client base that has a lot of trust in you and will follow your lead on shooting with this camera.
5. Can you provide clients with a robust post workflow.

These are all part of putting together a business plan. Of course going into this blind, with no idea how you'll make money with it would be a bad idea, unless you have money to burn and like new toys. You have to be smart. I think there will be lots of opportunities for people who know what they are doing and have done all of their homework on this new system. I see a lot of people who are saying they will go out as DITs but I wonder if everyone has experience doing this. It may not be as simple as some may think. You are going to have to know your stuff when it comes to setting up cameras and ensuring a flawless workflow on set. Learning on the job may really hurt your rep for getting future work. Just something to consider.

Steve

[Häakon]

I appreciate your consideration. Please contact me via email or telephone. This information can be found in the contact section of my website.

IBloom
And while Ian is waiting for his #654, feel free to contact me as well :whistling:

Haha...

[Keith Nealy]

VALUE - My sentiments exactly. Having been in this business for forty years and alway riding on the bleeding edge of technology I have seen time and time again young guys selling there services cheaply - based on what they paid for the technology. And so, every year, with that strategy they have to charge less and less - when in fact they are getting more experienced and have more VALUE to their clients. And then they compete with each other cutting prices even lower. On another forum I heard guys talking about doing three camera shoots of weddings, complete editing package and 20 finished
DVD's for $500 - and asking if they were charging too much. Insanity!

Selling VALUE and EXPERIENCE is the only way to stay ahead in this game.

IMHO, don't got head to head with rental companies because they are set up a certain way to be competitive. If you sell or rent you RED services - sell your clients on a total workflow management and oversight - something they can't get from rental companies.

Also you have to take into account what you are replacing - thousands of dollars of film and processing - money that the producers can put back into their production. The cost for your gear and services will be minimal compared to that.

Higher quality, minimal cost, more options, faster turnaround, on-site editing, raw format for unlimited revisions, - the list of VALUE-ADDED feature to sell with and justify your rates is enormous.

Once YOU really understand the value - have the courage to stand up and make some good deals. We will be in the driver's seat for quite a while.

As IBloom said, we are the beneficiaries of a great investment - and we - not our clients - should reap the benefit.

Try not to think of your service as a commodity - like something you buy at Costco. You are like fine wine - getting better and more expensive with age.

How many times have you been told "Your camera takes great pictures."
And what did you want to say in response?

It would be great if we could organize a unified Global RED Rental Strategy and backup contingency network.

We have such a new and unique opportunity to help Jim change the industry with this revolution it would be great if we were all on the same page to support one another. Maybe a RED Local... where one could get support, certification, insurance, group rates, etc.

IBloom - your extending your aloha to Curran to help him and keep him from "going to the dark side" of selling himeself to cheaply is a testiment to who you are.

We are - in Hawaiian terms - an "ohana" or family. and in an ohana you take care of your own. Even though on some level we are all competitors - we are still ohana - joined by the spirit of RED. That's why we all spend so much time here.

What is our part in the RED Revolution? Food for thought.

aloha,

Keiith

[I Bloom]

And while Ian is waiting for his #654, feel free to contact me as well :whistling:

Haha...

When RED #80 comes to the big apple. Haakon will recieve a draft beer of his choice from yours truly. Until then... I'd be worried about getting sued because your drive crashed.

IBloom

[Russ McDonald]

Dave thanks for the link to the rate card, by my calculation if you rented the complete package, which is what you would need to do in order to actually shoot a movie. 2090.00 thats 1722.00 us. I know your worth at least 600.00 us a day

Wow that's pretty close 2500 a day. Damn that new math

I know your toilets flush in the opposite direction down there. Could the laws of addition and subtraction be different too.

PS Oh the water show down is on, mate
PM me your contact info brother.

[Russ McDonald]

Of all the wisdom I throw down the only thing you guys fixate on is that hypothetical situation. Shame...Shame...

Screw you I'm suing you all !!!

In all seriousness this has been a great thread.

[Joe Aurili]

I would not rent out my red package by the day, but i'm thinking of putting together a longer term lease package of several months. It won't be cheap, but it wound allow someone to get their hands on the camera early on.

[Brook Willard]

Brook, Only in the US could you command that type of rate. Would that rate include a Macbook raid rig? You've just given more reason for Sound Recordists to become more bitter and twisted than they already are :wink:

Nah, that wouldn't include any equipment. A MacBook would go $150-200/d with plenty of accessories, the drives would be supplied by the client, etc.

On bigger shows [the shows that I'm personally aiming at... think large indie or studio feature grade productions], I have some thoughts about the kind of equipment setup that would really make RED work flawlessly on a set [while keeping the studio happy and dramatically speeding up turnaround time]. It's based on all of my on-set and RED knowledge... and it goes miles beyond a laptop on a cart. I'll save that one for me, though. :innocent:

[david farland]

okay sop, you know what....you producers, gotta give it to you when it comes to financials...being so creative and shit.
Okay whistles & bangs for 4k @ $2500+........alright...should of seen that coming, now you're saying everything for 2K @ $2,000 and HD 1080p is half rate at $1200 a day.
...But wait, my god, those thieves/fools at Lemac.
Their rate card ($A):
Red-4K....$850
SI-2K......$2000
F900R-HD.....$2000

We've gotta all tell them their rates are wrong.
Couple of reasons......
- F900R (cost $200K) is known/proven HD camera.
- Red is cheap for Lemac but they'll also pickup on accessories.
If Red works, it'll bring the others down not the other way round!
Cheers,

[Matthew Rogers]

Selling VALUE and EXPERIENCE is the only way to stay ahead in this game.


Wow, that was a really great post--got me thinking how I am really going to market my company in the future.

There are a couple of ways I am going to market the RED to my clients.

1. Walk away with full 35MM quality footage ready to edit the next day. 2. Full HD monitoring on set with quick clip playback--no crappy vid asst picture. Low media cost--hopefully walk off with 2 $100 Hard Drive's of their media.

But even with all of that...it's gonna come down to...do I have experience shooting big productions? It's hard to get clients to see past the smaller production value and look at the storytelling and creativity. Here, look at what I did with $6,000 and no crew...guess what I can do with $25,000 and a crew...but because of indy filmmaking, I believe more and more clients are starting to understand that the creativity is VERY important. I can go out and hire the best key grip/gaffer to light the most beautiful thing, but if I have boring angles and crap, it's boring. When you start talking with a client about a project, does your mind start running through how things might look and what fresh angle you can bring to the table? I wish I could shut my mind off about those things at night when I'm trying to fall asleep...I would probably sleep better!

Matthew

[J. Bernard Vallon]

This has been a very good thread.

Any serious production is going to be much more concerned with reliability than anything else. Your ability to ensure a reliable workflow is going to get you more money than the difference between nikons and zeiss.

Does anyone know the probability of spontaneous drive/compact flash failure?

I'd love to be able to reassure producers who are concerned about the REDDrives (clearly the weakest link in the system), and tell them about the more expensive option available (flash).

I figure talking about failure rates is the best way to convince people to go with the more expensive flash option.

[Andy Jackson]

Does anyone know the probability of spontaneous drive/compact flash failure?


Spontaneous failure of Compact Flash is extremely low (depending on manufacturer). Generally in the .005% range of failure on any given day. Reputable manufacturers will provide the failure rate for their cards. The chance of human error is actually much higher... oops, did I delete that?!

[Russ McDonald]

Sop. Does that stand for Superior Operational Prowess, I think it does.

I do know my financials, and I know how much money can be made by your clients, and I know how much savings you give the client.

I look at all of you as my bitches, and I would be remiss in my Pimp-ness. If I didn't help you maximize your earning power. You guys aren't street corner harpies, no...no...no, your first class penthouse whores. That comes from my heart man.

Seriously the number for 4k feature film production with the red, with all the stuff you need. As well as data management and workflow that is bullet proof. Is between 3000 to 4500 a day You will get it, and when its over they will be thanking you.

On the issue of law suits stemming from crashed or corrupted drives. It doesn't matter what disclaimer you use or waiver that it signed. You venerability is tied to your clients desire for litigation. I know allot guys that just get off on it, and they have the war chest to hurt you. Unfortunately most of the ones I know are in the film business. Due diligence is the only thing in the eyes of the judge that is going to let you prevail. Due diligence is expensive if not in dollars, it is definitely when it comes to time, and time is money... So price accordingly.

[Alex Wengert]

$1200.00 per day minimum for the camera body. Not knowing what the preferred storage medium will be, who knows for the periphirals. We are a professional film rental house, so I don't know yet what Red accessories we will need to integrate our currant lens options. We will cater only to Major motion pictures, Television production, and Commercial production.

[I Bloom]

Does anyone know the probability of spontaneous drive/compact flash failure?

Well there is that Google study from a while back that I posted but I think knowing the "rate" of failure is fairly useless knowledge. It's more important to know what to do in the event of failure.

Most hard drive failures will not destroy the actual magnetic data on the platters, this is as stable as video tape. What is prone to failure is really the mechanical parts, the read/write head and the motor to spin the platters. When these fail the data is just stuck on the platter.

The good news is that for $500 bucks you can send a drive to a shop and have them open it up and recover all the data off the drive. (A RED drive is RAID 0, so a little more complicated but still possible.) My understanding is that most failures are recoverable in this manner.

So if you are shooting to RED Drives and transfering every half day to a RAID 1 then you should be in very good shape.

Only in very dyer situations when the data is really unrecoverable will your risk be greater than the cost of the recovery service.

So I wouldn't worry too much about sad producers who have nothing better to do but sue you because they lost a half days work. If you are careful with your workflow I believe you will really be very secure. Perhaps more secure then film or tape.

IBloom

[Evin Grant]

On the issue of law suits stemming from crashed or corrupted drives. It doesn't matter what disclaimer you use or waiver that it signed. You venerability is tied to your clients desire for litigation. I know allot guys that just get off on it, and they have the war chest to hurt you. Unfortunately most of the ones I know are in the film business. Due diligence is the only thing in the eyes of the judge that is going to let you prevail. Due diligence is expensive if not in dollars, it is definitely when it comes to time, and time is money... So price accordingly.

This is true, but let me shed some light here...

I have been living this "Digital" life for a year and a half now with the HVX. I'll get to that in a minute but every production I've done this for, regardless of feature film or Pepsi commercial has undestood I bear no resposibility financially for hardware failure. I do make this very clear but more importantly I make the client purchase the delivery drives. So if they fail, tough luck, they're your drives not mine. As to weather or not this will be an issue with Red drives, anyone stupid enough to shoot any digital format longer than half a day without a redundant back up is asking to be sued. And most producers, even the sharks know it's not worth suing a camera man for a 1/2 day's or less footage. Let alone losing the one guy that knows the ins and outs of that production's workflow. It just doesn't make economic sense.

Furthermore I have been charging $1000-$1500 a day to do a quite a few variations on the Operator/DIT thing with the HVX. Productions pay money for piece of mind. If they think you're the shit of fuck mountain with a Red you can make bucks. But the most important thing that I've seen missing from this discussion is the creation of a workflow, and not just on the day but from the begining. Every P2 job I do the first thing I do is ask what NLE they're using. I almost always ask to speak to the editor or assistaint editor before recomending a workflow. And I never let the producer dictate the terms of my resposibility. I'm up front about what I will provide and gaurentee and preface everything with "shit happens" just not to me, yet.
I've shot maybe 4-500 hours of P2 since the HVX was introduced. I've only ever lost one card's worth of data, and that was human error I take full responsibility for.

The key here is you will be designing a new workflow for every client and every show. No matter how ubiquitos Red becomes, as an expert, and we here now are all the experts producers will be drawing from in the next few months and years, are the real power behind the camera. Because I know plenty of producers who bought the HVX thinking that they could stop hiring DPs and camera OPs, and I'm always the first on the call sheet. The B cam might be the producers but they don't dare spend all that money and not feel secure that someone on set knows what the fuck is happening when the shit hits the fan. "$9,999.00 to know which buttons to push." Damn straight.

[Brook Willard]

$1200.00 per day minimum for the camera body.

Thanks for posting the number, it's good to hear the range that you'll be aiming for. I've been wondering for a while.

For those that don't know, this is a figure that you'll probably become familiar with in the future. If the GM of Otto Nemenz International is thinking $1,200+ for just the body per day [plus accessories, etc.], it puts the camera in the same range as their 35mm cameras. To compare, a 3-perf LT goes for $1,650 per day and a 535B goes for $1,200.

So it looks like they won't be whoring it out [thankfully] and they won't be gouging [thankfully]. Obviously a rental house will have a more solid support infrastructure than most of us will be able to put together on our own with a personal camera, but it gives a range. You could undercut a little... you could toss in some accessories... whatever.

Know your target [Students? Independent? Commercial? TV? Documentary? Studio?] and make some money.

[Michael Brennan]

The below opinion about rates is most relevant to TV production within Europe.

*Compared to what is being spent on HD, RED will lead to a less money being spent on rental of camera kit with the savings and cost efficencies in the hands of the producer/rights owner.

*Aspirational RED owner operators will work more cheaply than established guys and gals.

*The larger rental companies will eventually charge RED on the same basis as other formats, 1/3% to 1% of the value of the kit per day including accessories.

*Most producers will use operators they know, well before those they haven't worked with before. Even if you have the only RED camera in town you could end up being camera tech to the favoured DP.


*If a TV production team are going to be charged more than 30% of the value of the kit in a year they will consider buying it themselves.

*RED offers significant savings for production teams who edit in house.
RED camera purchases by TV production companies could be far greater than HD where a relatively expensive cameras and under utilised tape deck fouled up a business plan for creating a complete workflow (unless a significant number of programmes were to be made). But now RED offers both low cost camera and no cost deck. Prodcution companies with a steady throughput of work making modest budget corporates an TV will own and operate themselves.

*Until cameras are readily available on the street rates will vary and perhaps polarise, as the aspirationals who want to kickstart their career will put the camera out for next to nothing to get a gig whereas experienced owner operators try and charge what the camera is worth to production rather than base it on what it costs to own.


*Those who hope that they will be highly valued for having superior knowledge with new technology overvalue the importance that most parts of the TV industry put on technical and craft expertise, as is evidenced by self shooting directors and production teams.

*Well budgeted commercials and features will continue to use existing camera talent at current labour rates regardless of format in use.

*New camera guys and gals could integrate themselves into a RED production company as the camera and workflow person rather than buy their own hardware.



Mike Brennan

[Antoine Baumann]

The good news is that for $500 bucks you can send a drive to a shop and have them open it up and recover all the data off the drive. (A RED drive is RAID 1, so a little more complicated but still possible.) My understanding is that most failures are recoverable in this manner.

So if you are shooting to RED Drives and transfering every half day to a RAID 0 then you should be in very good shape.


It is the opposite, RED Drives are RAID 0, and you should transfer the datas to a RAID 1 system, I think the most often possible without slowing down the shooting.

antoine.

[Michael Brennan]

Thanks for posting the number, it's good to hear the range that you'll be aiming for. I've been wondering for a while.

For those that don't know, this is a figure that you'll probably become familiar with in the future. If the GM of Otto Nemenz International is thinking $1,200+ for just the body per day [plus accessories, etc.].....

If I have understood correctly the rates and equipment on offer, I seriously doubt that in the long run all producers/DPs will pay a daily rate of $1500 for an electronic camera body that even with with a viewfinder drive and batteries is valued at under $30k.
That appears to be around 5% (of value) per day rate!

Historicaly 1% per day was the ideal figure to aim at for electronic kit on the basis of 100 days rental per year and likleyhood of it being superceded in three to four years.

Rates for pro electronic kit have been declining, in Europe rates for HD for TV production and low budget features have migrated down to 0.75% or below per day.



Mike Brennan




Mike Brennan

[Häakon]

Adobe (sorry, I couldn't find your name),

Where are you shooting?

-H

[Paul Hazlett]

If I have understood correctly the rates and equipment on offer, I seriously doubt that in the long run all producers/DPs will pay a daily rate of $1500 for an electronic camera body that even with with a viewfinder drive and batteries is valued at under $30k.
That appears to be around 5% (of value) per day rate!

Historicaly 1% per day was the ideal figure to aim at for electronic kit on the basis of 100 days rental per year and likleyhood of it being superceded in three to four years.

Rates for pro electronic kit have been declining, in Europe rates for HD for TV production and low budget features have migrated down to 0.75% or below per day.



Mike Brennan




Mike Brennan

How many producers even know how much Red costs?

[Jeremy Torrie]

On the issue of insurance and liability -I'd love to know who bonded Soderberg's film. The bond companies been extremely reticent to endorse e-workflows -i.e. without a tape or film source.

[Steve Sherrick]

It strikes me of the "cheapening" of this industry. I've seen it happen in audio post and looks like we'll see it in video aquisition and post as well. By cheapening, I'm referring to value being based on technology as opposed to the people using the technology. I understand that the rental business has come up with these ratios in the past, and they have probably worked out okay, but I just don't see it in the case of Red camera or any other emerging technologies. To me, there will be quite a bit of value in having a camera capable of aquiring beautiful images and a great team to make it all happen.

I'm not really that opposed to an adjustment. I can see people renting the camera for less than a Sony 900 or varicam because of the investment ratios, but to drop way way down just doesn't make sense. I think it's going to hurt the business, not help it. Producers would love to see us all undercut each other until the average prices become dirt cheap. All this does is put less money in everyone's pockets. I have no problem with fair rates. I think I charge pretty fair rates for all of my services, but I know that if I drop way below a certain threshold, it's going to be detremetal to the bigger picture.

Obviously people can charge what they want. This is a capitalistic society and everyone has a right to compete. What worries me is that our services and skills become less valued over time and that eventually it's just not worth the time and energy, no matter how much we love doing it.

Just my 2 cents.

Steve

[donatello b]

the US has many markets .. Otto & clairmont are based in LA . they offer their clients services that we as individual's just can't offer - those renting from them expect that service and will pay the price without complaining..
their client base is totally different then most of our client base ...

in the SF area i see individuals renting their packaged HVX's for 250 -300 day .. i see a like package at clairmont for 450 day ... depending on your client base they may or may not pay the top tier rate ?
if my client base is hi end LA commercials then they will be going to Otto's and paying whatever the price ... if my client base is low end SF cable commercials then they are going to be looking for a super deal ...

[Bill Anderson]

"On the issue of insurance and liability -I'd love to know who bonded Soderberg's film. The bond companies been extremely reticent to endorse e-workflows -i.e. without a tape or film source."

Why, what's so comforting about a can of exposed film (sealed with tape) compared to an immediately verifiable and backed up digital image?

[Russ McDonald]

Brook I'm at least a year from shooting my friend It's a huge Sci-fi action adventure. I wanted people to Bid it so they would think it through, get them outside their box. "I got a new toy, I can start a business."

I knew the pro's would come out and slap some sense into people. Many voices of reason have more weight.

I'm not sure if I'm going to animated it or do it live action. Live action would be my first choice. I'll have a site up soon.

I want to keep it here in the US ,I'm sick of guys like Bill taking the food of the plates of poor starving American crews. ( Just kidding Bill I know it's not your fault, so don't send me nice hate mail.)

Truth of the matter is I'll be Directing it, and being a Producer in name only. At the forecasted budget, if the money wants to goes offshore I don't have much of a choice.

I do however have a Stalin like rule over the format I choose to shoot in and the crew I work with. It will be Red all the way. So hope you and Gibby have valid passports. If you guys aren't too busy elsewhere.

If you are, things happen. Star's go out with different producers this can start a tragic spiral into drug crazed binges, that ends in rehab. Food poising breaks out everywhere, but thank God the camera department is spared. Productions have to shut down. No one knows how these things happen, they just do Brook.

[Sanjin Jukic]

I wiil rent my RED ONE™ rental packege € 800,00 daily.

Kit Includes:
• RED ONE™ 4K CAMERA BODY with PL lens mount + Nikon F mount
• 35mm sized 12 megapixel CMOS sensor
• RED FLASH ON-CAMERA Module (Flash Media Extra)
• RED VIEWFINDER with RED ARM adjustable arm & Interface cable
• RED 320GB DRIVES - External Mini RAID
• RED BRICK 140Wh Battery Pack(2) with RED CHARGER
• Camera - Charger LEMO Cable (10 ft)
RED RAIL Base Package including:
• RED RAIL CRADLE (battery plate & magazine adaptor)
• RED RAIL MOUNT
• RED ROD SHORT (3)
• RED GRIP HANDLE
• RED RAIL BASE PLATE
• RED PAD (shoulder pad and plate adaptor)
• RED TOP HANDLE assembly

About DIT, the video assistent, the data management/workflow, etc...
I'm still calculating the final price.

My first RED ONE™ rental package rate is valid for the period
from the end of November 2007 to the end of March 2008.
After that the price will drop but not much lower.

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

I think you would be advised to provide more than 1 battery.

Stephen


I wiil rent my RED ONE™ rental packege € 800,00 daily.

Kit Includes:
• RED ONE™ 4K CAMERA BODY with PL lens mount + Nikon F mount
• 35mm sized 12 megapixel CMOS sensor
• RED FLASH ON-CAMERA Module (Flash Media Extra)
• RED VIEWFINDER with RED ARM adjustable arm & Interface cable
• RED 320GB DRIVES - External Mini RAID
• RED BRICK 140Wh Battery Pack with RED CHARGER
• Camera - Charger LEMO Cable (10 ft)
• RED RAIL Base Package including:
• RED RAIL CRADLE (battery plate & magazine adaptor)
• RED RAIL MOUNT
• RED ROD SHORT (3)
• RED GRIP HANDLE
• RED RAIL BASE PLATE
• RED PAD (shoulder pad and plate adaptor)
• RED TOP HANDLE assembly

About DIT, the video assistent, the data management/workflow, etc...
I'm still calculating the final price.

My first RED ONE™ rental package rates are valid for the period
from the end of November 2007 to the end of March 2008.
After that the price will drop but not too much lower.

Also all the prices are subject to change with out notice.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks Stephen you are right.

I already corrected it.

[Jeremy Torrie]

"Why, what's so comforting about a can of exposed film (sealed with tape) compared to an immediately verifiable and backed up digital image?"

Um, the fact that you can always go back to the negative if there is a problem or corrpution of digital media.

Maybe they have proven a way to back up media and verify that it isn't corrupted before you get rid of the media on your Red Ram or CF drive. That's what makes the bonders nervous.

[Brook Willard]

Um, the fact that you can always go back to the negative if there is a problem or corrpution of digital media.

A sealed can of exposed film is far from a negative that you can go back to in case of a problem. It's a time bomb just waiting for some PA to drop it.

[Stephen Williams]

Thanks Stephen you are right.

I already corrected it.

Hi,

4 would make many people more comfortable IMHO.

Stephen

[I Bloom]

"Why, what's so comforting about a can of exposed film (sealed with tape) compared to an immediately verifiable and backed up digital image?"

Um, the fact that you can always go back to the negative if there is a problem or corrpution of digital media.

Maybe they have proven a way to back up media and verify that it isn't corrupted before you get rid of the media on your Red Ram or CF drive. That's what makes the bonders nervous.

I think file corruption and failed drives should be compared to tape dropout, deck failure, hair in the gate, ripped sprockets. At least on random access media we can check the viability of our data within minutes of shooting it.

If you have a careful workflow with human and machine checks in place you are secure. Hands in a changing tent == hands on a laptop keyboard.

So I think it's really a matter of the bonding companies learning about this technology and making deals to match. The ones who do it first will get a leg up.

IBloom

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hi,

4 would make many people more comfortable IMHO.

Stephen

Hi,

Later I will add it for sure. Not enough budget for all at the moment because I am assembling on set station based on MacBookPro 17"+ HDLink+23"/30" monitoring, than post workflow based on macpro 8 core 9GB memory station, sound recording based on Fostex FR2 Compact Field Memory Hard Disk Recorder, post sound production with Yamaha Digital Mixing studio O1x mLan based, Logic, Soundtrack and Reason 3 as basic for sound+score postproduction etc. Also have a good set of Nikon F mount lenses from diverse brands (Zeiss, Leica, Schneider, Nikkor, Cooke, Sigma), FF from RR Micro, Matte box from Vocas, 4 ND filters from Schneider etc.
I want to rent all this as a package. BOOM!

[Rob Powell]

If I have understood correctly the rates and equipment on offer, I seriously doubt that in the long run all producers/DPs will pay a daily rate of $1500 for an electronic camera body that even with with a viewfinder drive and batteries is valued at under $30k.
That appears to be around 5% (of value) per day rate!

Historicaly 1% per day was the ideal figure to aim at for electronic kit on the basis of 100 days rental per year and likleyhood of it being superceded in three to four years.

I think the 1% rule is the closest parameter you'll find to where things will eventually shake out. We've rented Viper cameras for around $1200/day which is approx. 1%. BUT there are many factors that affect the rental price of an item. There are fewer Viper cameras, so demand and availability affects the price too. With 2,000 Red cameras in the market by mid '08, the window for high dollar rentals is small.

BUT, I do think there is validity to considering the VALUE of the Red camera/workflow and not just the purchase price. If the camera and workflow meet our expectations, then demand may drive the price higher.

Rental houses have different business objective than owners/users. Rental houses want to turn the gear as often and quickly as possible to recover their investment and then make a profit. A camera on a shelf is worth nothing. Thus, they are much more agressive in pricing.

Historically, users who rent their gear charge more and are usually more restrictive about who they rent to. I'll often pay a higher fee for a local user's gear, because you save on freight (Fedex charges on Anvil cases REALLY add up!) and have a local contact in case of problems. IMO owner/renters should not try to compete with rental houses, because they can't afford to take the same risks.

Our plan is to rent very little and only with a company rep on-site. Since rental is not our primary business, the extra income isn't worth the risk. We also plan to have a complete post workflow in place that will hopefully pull renters into that, more profitable, income stream.

All-in-all, the marketplace will force us all to find common ground. So, let's all keep the prices high for as long as possible. Our target is going to be around $1500/ day. "Curses on you $500 /day spoilers.":ranting2:

RA Post

[Nathan Buxton]

At $1500 a day, the production will have paid for the camera in only 20 days of shooting. That is just plain rude. That is taking advantage of a monopoly. Just because the cameras are impossible to purchase "day-of" doesn't mean you guys need to triple your investment three fold in the first 6 months. I find that very disheartening.

I was picturing the RED camera to be a tool for low-budget productions. Sure, a large production company will pay $1500 a day, but I assure you no indie producer with a budget under $100,000 will pay that. They can simply use another medium.

I am planning on shooting a low budget feature film in early 2008, and i would LOVE to use the red one. But not if i have to pay 1/20th of the price of the camera every single day we use it. What happened to the spirit of film making? This isn't ONLY a business after all.

If everyone here bought a red one reservation in hopes of "getting-rich-quick," than i disrespect that greatly.

[Matthew Lochman]

At $1500 a day, the production will have paid for the camera in only 20 days of shooting. That is just plain rude. That is taking advantage of a monopoly. Just because the cameras are impossible to purchase "day-of" doesn't mean you guys need to triple your investment three fold in the first 6 months. I find that very disheartening.

I was picturing the RED camera to be a tool for low-budget productions. Sure, a large production company will pay $1500 a day, but I assure you no indie producer with a budget under $100,000 will pay that. They can simply use another medium.

I am planning on shooting a low budget feature film in early 2008, and i would LOVE to use the red one. But not if i have to pay 1/20th of the price of the camera every single day we use it. What happened to the spirit of film making? This isn't ONLY a business after all.

If everyone here bought a red one reservation in hopes of "getting-rich-quick," than i disrespect that greatly.

But I thought that Jim was making this camera because he was a lonely, rich, camera junky and wanted some homies...

[Julian Banos]

Nathan,

Eventually with so many cameras on the market the price will come down. But I dont think its that terrible for people to profit on such a great product. I think the higher the ROI on a RED the more people will buy more RED products (think of how many 4k projectors to independent cinemas can be sold). And I think this a fair reward for people who:
a) are producing a revolutionary product and
b) people who had the foresight to reserve early.

[Ramesh Jai]

At $1500 a day, the production will have paid for the camera in only 20 days of shooting. That is just plain rude. That is taking advantage of a monopoly. Just because the cameras are impossible to purchase "day-of" doesn't mean you guys need to triple your investment three fold in the first 6 months. I find that very disheartening.

I was picturing the RED camera to be a tool for low-budget productions. Sure, a large production company will pay $1500 a day, but I assure you no indie producer with a budget under $100,000 will pay that. They can simply use another medium.

I am planning on shooting a low budget feature film in early 2008, and i would LOVE to use the red one. But not if i have to pay 1/20th of the price of the camera every single day we use it. What happened to the spirit of film making? This isn't ONLY a business after all.

If everyone here bought a red one reservation in hopes of "getting-rich-quick," than i disrespect that greatly.
I totally support you on that.

[Andrew Benz]

Well, my investment into this system does not stop at $17,500. Like many here that investment will go significantly higher... like into the "over $100,000" for pl mount lenses (everything RED has to offer and a possible EFP/cine solution with Canon), o'conner/ronford fluid head/various sized sticks, a complete post/"on set" workflow/data management/archive (new quad core mac, monitors, etc, new lighting package (dedo/kino/etc), new audio package (sound devices/sankin/sennheiser) and all the new solutions being brought to market by Curt's View Factor Studio-- I have #24 in the Mirus line... This is just my short list... But my approach is different than many here... My point is that people looking at renting this system and cry and bitch do not have a clue as too the total investment involved.

That being said part of my work will be pro bono for certain groups ie-Veteran organisations, Performing Arts groups, etc... Also, I am leveraging my package to work with people that I really want to work with or projects that I really believe in doing. So there are many ways to look at this beyond the standard rental deal-- which I will not be doing. I am not a rental company. But I will be a gateway to great equipment and freelancers that can grow with the type and size of the project...

[Matthew Rogers]

I am planning on shooting a low budget feature film in early 2008, and i would LOVE to use the red one. But not if i have to pay 1/20th of the price of the camera every single day we use it. What happened to the spirit of film making? This isn't ONLY a business after all.

If everyone here bought a red one reservation in hopes of "getting-rich-quick," than i disrespect that greatly.

Actually, I would say that for most people here who are buying a RED it is a business--it sure as heck is for me. Why shouldn't those of us risking $40,000-$60,000 not be rewarded for our investment? I know a guy here that I used to work for who's still renting out his VariCams for close to $1,200 a day. It probably cost him around $80,000-$90,000 and I'd say within 2 years he had made back his investment. You've gotta remember that it's not all profit...there's upkeep on equipment, buying NEW equipment, taxes, and other business crap. Why do you expect something that is delivering quality far better than the Varicam to cost the price of a HVX? I would say anything between $1k-2k is a fair price considering the quality you will get.

I think too many people are in the mindset that the RED will be great for ultra low budget filmmaking (Under $30,000) But the only people who are going to be able to make films for that price (and look/sound good) are people who are already professionals and have access to lighting/grip/sound equipment..

Just my point of view.

Matthew

[Zakaree Sandberg]

in agreeance macville

[Russ McDonald]

At $1500 a day, the production will have paid for the camera in only 20 days of shooting. That is just plain rude. That is taking advantage of a monopoly. Just because the cameras are impossible to purchase "day-of" doesn't mean you guys need to triple your investment three fold in the first 6 months. I find that very disheartening.

I was picturing the RED camera to be a tool for low-budget productions. Sure, a large production company will pay $1500 a day, but I assure you no indie producer with a budget under $100,000 will pay that. They can simply use another medium.

I am planning on shooting a low budget feature film in early 2008, and i would LOVE to use the red one. But not if i have to pay 1/20th of the price of the camera every single day we use it. What happened to the spirit of film making? This isn't ONLY a business after all.

If everyone here bought a red one reservation in hopes of "getting-rich-quick," than i disrespect that greatly.

I thought I could sit back and watch this thread from here on out and just observe. But no I am going to school Nathan in the next post, as it turns out I am an Indie Producer who has shot a film for under 100,000.

You better take notes because I about to budget your movie for you.

[mezmo]

Hi abobeone,
What's the name of your film,website? Where can we see it
mate.
Mezmo

[Nathan Buxton]

Hahahahahaha. wow!!! talk about ego trip on adobeone's part. I don't want you to school me. I won't read your next post so don't waste your breathe unless you think it will make you look better in front of your peers.

I understand the price is much more than 20,000. But, we are not talking about that. we are talking about renting the camera body, evf, and neccesary accessories. All your lenses and computers and audio gear can stay at home. If I am renting your camera i do not expect to pay dividends to your other purchases as well. Again: rude and unfair.

I believe the appropriate price for rental of neccesary camera gear only should be slightly under $1000 and with an operator be slightly under $1500. If you guys don't think that is fair than i will quit wasting my time even caring about RED. Because without giving artists gear (at a reasonable savings, which RED is supposed to be), than red is useless (until 4k projection is standard).

[david farland]

Nathan,
Leave my bitch alone!

He might sound like he's full of sh*t all the time...but he's actually provided a refreshing prospective missing on this techno forum and I look forward to what he has to say!

Cheers,
Dave

[Ryan Bedell]

OK. I'm East coast, non-NY. I have a full expectation that eventually I'll be able to rent a RED for less then a grand a day (3day week 10 day month) as a small but workable package.

I firmly admit that I'm a DP who's willing to work too cheaply. But that's a whole other discussion. In any event, I truly believe that the RED, once a few thousand get out in the marketplace wil be in line percentage wise with other video solutions. The chance to make money is with the add ons, the personal skill etc.

A feature film DP has no excuse settling for less then a grand a day himself without SERIOUS reasons to belive that there are other profit areas available.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Basically I'm saying this thread has told me that I'm undercharging, that RED owners will probably be overcharging in the short run and disappointed in the long run and that I REALLY need to get me some gear.

Ryan

[Brook Willard]

Nobody needs to school anybody. There's a way to share opinions that makes everybody happy and there's a way that leads to locked threads. Come on, guys.

[Matthew Rogers]

I understand the price is much more than 20,000. But, we are not talking about that. we are talking about renting the camera body, evf, and neccesary accessories. All your lenses and computers and audio gear can stay at home. If I am renting your camera i do not expect to pay dividends to your other purchases as well. Again: rude and unfair.

I believe the appropriate price for rental of neccesary camera gear only should be slightly under $1000 and with an operator be slightly under $1500. If you guys don't think that is fair than i will quit wasting my time even caring about RED. Because without giving artists gear (at a reasonable savings, which RED is supposed to be), than red is useless (until 4k projection is standard).

I guess you have never been around a rental house before. Money made off rentals go to repair the item you are renting, buying new gear, and MAKING A PROFIT! Why is it so unfair to make a good profit? I think it's unfair for you to think I should spend a buttload of money (and $40,000 is a buttload of money) and not make a good return on my investment...I mean that's what investments are all about...As much as filmmaking/video production is creative and a art form, it's still business too.

If VariCam's are still renting for $850-$1200 a day, then why shouldn't something 4 times better not be worth at least that much? If you compare the RED cost with a 35MM camera, you'll be saving a load of money. Sure the camera/accessories cost about the same per day, but there's no film cost, processing, telecine, etc. I think I saw a post the other day that said film cost for one day with processing is at least $2,000. Therefore, that's a savings of 67% PER DAY! I firmly believe that is a "reasonable" savings. I mean, tell me a producer who wouldn't like to save $2k without losing results. The thing is, the RED is really gonna make $100,000 films look like $500,000 films, not a $600 film like a $5 mil picture.

Not to be mean, but how many years have you been working in the film and or video business? I ask because I feel like from your comments that you've never really worked in it.

Matthew

[Gavin Greenwalt]

If you feel the prices are too high for 'such an inexpensive item': Buy your own.

Easy solution.

Nobody is entitled to film equipment especially high end film equipment. It's not like your independent film is actually going to make money. 99.9% of all features made are made for fun. Or at least I hope that was the intention because they sure as hell aren't profitable.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

I dont think it'll be impossible for someone to get a red for the day, maybe even with lenses and reddrive, for 500 to 600 dollars. The arguement that this post is making is the extra money is for peace of mind.

As a filmmaker, DP, producer, whatever, you don't want a rental house to drop of a camera—in questionable condition—with not enough gear to make it work, and use it with a crew who've never seen a red before.

If you rent a system for $500-600, unless its from a rental house, the guy who owns it is probably not going to be able to afford to

1) regularly service it,
2) insure it properly and
3) clean the sensor and test the system every morning

between every job he/she needs to book to pay for it.

If you pay a little extra, you'd also get

1.) more reliable recording options
2.) backup equipment available
3.) onsite tech/DIT
4.) a reliable, dependable owner who is never late and can carry his weight in gear.

In order to be the later, you simply HAVE to charge a little more.

[Clint Johnson]

At $1500 a day, the production will have paid for the camera in only 20 days of shooting. That is just plain rude. That is taking advantage of a monopoly. Just because the cameras are impossible to purchase "day-of" doesn't mean you guys need to triple your investment three fold in the first 6 months. I find that very disheartening.

I was picturing the RED camera to be a tool for low-budget productions. Sure, a large production company will pay $1500 a day, but I assure you no indie producer with a budget under $100,000 will pay that. They can simply use another medium.

I am planning on shooting a low budget feature film in early 2008, and i would LOVE to use the red one. But not if i have to pay 1/20th of the price of the camera every single day we use it. What happened to the spirit of film making? This isn't ONLY a business after all.

If everyone here bought a red one reservation in hopes of "getting-rich-quick," than i disrespect that greatly.

A lot of the people here are never going to pay for their camera through rentals no matter how hard they try. It isn't easy to get the gigs and the bank won't listen when they say that they've only been able to book the Red for eight days out of the last two months. Rent still has to be paid and food still has to go on the table... so when you come calling with a request for $300 days, rest assured you will be able to find plenty of desperate people to take advantage of.

Hell, depending on how hard times are, you could probably find some willing to go for half that just so they can keep from having to put their Red up on eBay for another week or make their kids skip a meal.

You should find this very "heartening".

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I can see reservation holders charging a huge premium for use of their RED... Work it, baby! Work it.. Milk it for all it's worth!

But once demand levels off I don't see some of these hopeful prices really working out. RED's image quality and other advantages can only go so far to inflate the rental price. There is a "breaking point" where people are just going to say "f--- you, I'll buy my own". If renting a camera body costs someone 60% or more of buying their own over a couple weeks, they're not going to rent.

Due to RED's low price point, I don't think we're going to see many camera body or bare-bones rentals out there. Rental houses are going to make rental packages with the camera and they're going to make money on what they rent you along with the camera. People won't want to pay $1500/day for a $17.5K camera body. But they may gladly pay $3000-$5000 or more per day for the camera with premium production pack accessories, Arri mattebox, cooke prime set, O'Connor 2060 w/sticks, a few batteries, charger, RED DRIVEs, and FLASH module... Maybe even a nicely configured Macbook Pro already loaded with REDCINE and other workflow tools.

I'm seriously wondering if a small outfit or independent RED owners can even justify or realistically expect to rent out their RED kits once demand settles. A rental house that can configure various RED rental packages and provide the service and support plans, insurance, etc... will do just fine. But I don't see how someone who owns a camera, a few batteries, a tripod system, and a few lenses (especially if they're still / SLR lenses) can offer enough options to keep that camera busy enough to make money and support it, insure it, etc..

To me, an independent or small boutique that rents out RED will be doing it occasionally, when the cameras are not busy, just to bring in a few extra bucks. Those in that situation who are trying to make a business plan out of renting RED probably won't do so hot. I just don't see it... The camera will make more money if you just pick it up and use it.

That's my opinion... At least for tonight. And I'm tired and grumpy.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

I'm seriously wondering if a small outfit or independent RED owners can even justify or realistically expect to rent out their RED kits once demand settles.

Jeff is definitely right here. Furthermore, no matter how wonderful red is, someone will make a better camera. Maybe itll be canon, maybe sony, maybe jannard. One day, stunning image quality will be easy.

I'm not planning on being able to make a career out of owner/oping. Content generation has always been the lasting way to make money. A better camera will always be on the horizon, but there is no substitute for a fantastic DP.

[Russ McDonald]

Brook is right schooled was the wrong word to use. I should of used enlightened, I apologize Nathan

Nathan’s Movie

First and foremost at 100,000 dollars you are not making X-men 4.
And you are not casting, Jodi Foster so you are making a personal film. A small ground breaking, fuck the studio’s film because you are a maverick. So no car chases for you, or explosions. Just an art house film with minimal locations, with a run time of 90min. Why 90min you decry Nathan. Because it’s short and the theater can have more showings in a day that’s why, which means you more likely to get pick up for distribution from those soul-sucking studios.


Your going to shoot your talking actors over 3 weeks, because you do need to sleep you won’t, but it’s nice to have goals. On this schedule makes it 5 pages a day over 18 shooting days for you opus. I am assuming you want to make money

100,000 grad is the budget.

You have 70,000 for production
You have 30,000 for post production, and marketing at a festival of your choice.

Production.
3500 a day for a Red cam, with primes, matte box, fallow focus, DP/operator , who knows what he’s doing, 1 paid assistant camera guy, and a PA camera bitch.

1000 a day will get you an antiquate small movie grip truck with electric, with crew.

300 a day for a pee wee and some track.

500 a day 2 man sound crew.

300 a day for make up

150 a day for wardrobe

150 a day script supervisor

300 a day prop and art department


6200 a day all at 3 day weeks that’s…………………….. 55,800
21 days of insurance so you can rent the gear……………..6,000
To feed the crew DO NOT SCIMP HERE………………..8,000
69,800

Post Production
One bad ass mac 3.0 quad, 16 gigs of ram, 3.5 TB raid, Nvidia Q/fx4500 graphics Card with 30 in display, Final cut studio 2, and to top it off 3yrs apple care. Add tax and shipping

17,500.00
Find a hungry composer for your film score
Because at this budget you can’t license music …… 2,500.00

ADR if you need it, and just enough folly, foot steps,
paper noise, clothing sounds to boost your PV…… 3000.00

Your left with a little over 7000.00 to spread around to your actors, electronic press kits, some travel expenses to a festival you get in because your film is brilliant, save about 500.00 For a PR person at the beginning, get them to send out a press releases to the Hollywood reporter, and Daily Variety. If you do your odds go way up of getting listed in Tuesday’s in production sections. You will have Acquisition Exec’s reach out to you shot a single frame.

Most importantly you have a done movie, which you own all the ancillary rights to. So when you win the top prize. They’ll be killing each other to acquire your film Nathan. Because you spent that money up front for the RED, you can retain all 4k distribution and broadcast rights for yourself. So when 4k finds its way into living rooms. You make even more money. All this for just under 100,000.

Stop it Dave your're making me misty.

[kmikami]

If VariCam's are still renting for $850-$1200 a day, then why shouldn't something 4 times better not be worth at least that much?

So which is it? Is the rental price based on the cost of the equipment or the production value the equipment brings? If you're basing the rental price on equipment cost then obviously the Red needs to be about half or less of the rental cost of a Varicam. But if you're saying that Red should be $1200 a day and is 4x better than a Varicam then the Varicam rental cost needs to drop to $300 a day. You can't have it both ways!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

adobeone,

I mostly agree, but you missed a few things. :) Oh, and forget the FX4500 video card, that's $1400 wasted compared to an X1900XT that will actually outperform it 99% of the time. The FX4500 is for running stereo shutter glasses and specific CAD software that needs multiple hardware overlays and stencil buffers. Not needed here.

I personally wouldn't divide up a 100K budget that way, but it's all subjective and will vary depending on the actual script/project.

[Russ McDonald]

Agree with you there. I don't know what Nathan's film is. But 100,000 tight no matter how you slice it. If it's a good movie that got embraced buy the world. Those 4k rights would be worth millions.

Thanks for the Graphic card correction good sir, so how much do we save Nathan on that.

[I Bloom]

If you are upset because a $30,000 dollar camera is renting for $1000, per day, then I think you may again be missing a basic tenet of this terrible dream called capitalism.

First of all if you rent a RED or any other film equipment for 30 days straight (30 x $1000 = $30,000) you are going to get a major discount, most rental places discount based on a 3 day week and maybe a 10 day month. It's when you are shooting for three days that you might pay that full price.

But beyond that this is again all about supply and demand. There is a limited supply of people willing to spend $80,000 on a Varicam. Those people make a profit in part based on the fact that the upfront cost of buying is so high, it's easier and profitable for their clients who sell content to pay in small amounts for those few days that they are actually shooting.

The same economics apply to real estate and just about everything else. Most people who pay rent are paying an amount that is greater then the mortgage on the property they are renting simply because they could never come up with a down payment at any given time.

RED is a smaller investment than other high end HD gear, so there will be a larger supply of people ready to buy one, thus the price will surely drop once it becomes widely available. But it may never drop below a certain point, simply because we will at some point reach the limited number of people ready to make that smaller investment.

This situation benefits people who want to rent equipment because there is a financial incentive for people to provide equipment for a very small amount of money albeit for a short amount of time. This is a good deal in comparison to what it would cost if no one was renting, and your only option was to buy. Renting gear, creates a direct relationship between money and time.

The good part of this is that human qualities such as talent, knowledge and skill multiply the value of the rental arrangment, benefiting both buyer and seller.

IBloom

[Bill Anderson]

ibloom (and most of you for that matter) it's strange that this "terrible dream called capitalism" should only apply to the rental price of the camera and not the purchase price. Hell, who wants to undermine capitalism, let's all suggest to Jannard that he should get with the program, the body alone should be 150k. Another poll?

[I Bloom]

ibloom (and most of you for that matter) it's strange that this "terrible dream called capitalism" should only apply to the rental price of the camera and not the purchase price. Hell, who wants to undermine capitalism, let's all suggest to Jannard that he should get with the program, the body alone should be 150k. Another poll?

Bill, what your saying is correct. If the RED ONE sold for say $150,000 just for the basics, the number of willing buyers would go way down, the stabalized rental price would go up. Over a long term a larger investment like this would also yield a larger returns. Hence the Varicam is still making money for people who bought it years ago. Jim would in some ways, be doing his committed customers a favor.

What is good about low priced gear is that its leveling the playing field a bit. If you are working in a bigger pool you have more competition, so RED owners will need to distinguish themselves more with talent and services.

In any case its like they say, if you have a problem with the rental price your solution is clear: Go buy it.

IBloom

[Russ McDonald]

ibloom (and most of you for that matter) it's strange that this "terrible dream called capitalism" should only apply to the rental price of the camera and not the purchase price. Hell, who wants to undermine capitalism, let's all suggest to Jannard that he should get with the program, the body alone should be 150k. Another poll?

Can not let it go...

Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, and whatever you called what Hugo Chavez is doing. Are just mechanisms for dealing with the axiom of commerce. "The world is a free market." it has been since the first Caveman traded part of his hunt for a ember to start his own fire. It will always be a free market.

The only difference is were you are in the economic chain, places like Canada were just the government itself, not counting the natural flow of markets forces. Is a hugh hurdle. That's why in 2005 you were #9 on the GNP list, and we were #1. Why? Are Canadians not as smart, or as talented, or less innovative, do they lack desire?

The answer to that question is. Hell no!

I going to keep pounding this point. 4k is a entirely new set of ancillary markets to profit from, it maybe 10 years down the road. But it will happen. The producers Know it and so should you. A camera is a machine, it's just sculpture. Until someone with skill and experience wields it, thats why it's worth every penny Ian is going to charge you.

••• Notes for the test•••

USA #1 2005 12.9 trillion
Canada # 9 2005 1.05 trillion

[Nathan Buxton]

Ok, well some very good counter-points here. But many are still assuming i want the camera at $500 a day. Even i realize that is too low. I think for a camera and operator, $1500 a day would be fair! although as you say it depends totally on the project.

I don't make films as a business, but you guys seem to want to use this as a business. Clearly we are in two completely different arenas playing two different sports. Thats fine! As you guys say you WILL be able to get what you want for it from production companies who are DEAD SET on shooting on red.

The problem is everybody keeps saying "after the initial demand drops off." Well, I ask you, beyond major production companies who are willign to go out on a limb for the publicity of using a new technology, what large demand is there going to be?

In terms of the hollywood north (canada) film market, i doubt there will be even an ounce of initial demand for the red by people who could afford to pay the inflated initial rental prices. Basically it will be a stalemate: People unwilling to negotiate on prices; people unwilling to spring for a completely unheard of medium.

In the US market it may be very different, but i don't see ANY feature, tv series or MFTV movie being shot in vancouver with the red, it's just too rickity of a bridge to walk over at this point.

Therefore, the only demand for the red will be from low-budget indie producers who want waulity but at a significant savings over film OR OTHER DIGITAL MEDIAS! That's the key here. Red ONE isn't necessarily competing against other film formats, it's competing for that slightly lower end (compared to film) digital marketplace.

I'm all for capitalism, and all for people making money and servicing their equipment. But you have to realize, to CREATE initial demand you will have to get the camera out there and producing results for people to become willing to take the risk.

[Stephen Webb]

I think for a camera and operator, $1500 a day would be fair! although as you say it depends totally on the project.

What level of kit would you be expecting to get for that (out of interest)?

[Keith Nealy]

I don't make films as a business, but you guys seem to want to use this as a business..

This forum was started and supported by folks who make their living behind or with a camera. Don't you think we have some idea what we're doing?

Consider this simple fact. Making a 35mm film is very expensive because a good portion of that expense is film and processing.

Now consider, if you will, that RED proves out to be just as good "on the screen" as 35mm. For the sake of argument - they're equal.

Why would anyone (small asthetic considerations aside) want to willfull pay all that extra money for film and process when they don't have to?

And, if a company can own their own camera instead of renting a very expensive camera system, they have it available full time to develop their own creative content - which as we all know is where the real money is made.

RED is a no- brainer. And if you spend some time on these boards and listen to the wisdom that is available, you will begin to get it.

As far as rentals go, it should be based on VALUE - not original cost - WHY? Because for the near future you won't be able to buy one - AT ANY COST - Why? because you have to wait in line.

So, in effect, for a while, RED is priceless. If you want the benefits of RED - no film and processing costs (not to mention the dozens of other advantages) - you will have to pay a price based on VALUE - not a commodity-based standard based on readily available cameras.

IMHO, Owner/Ops who develop a bulletproof workflow with all the equipment will prevail in the rental field. Sure, rental houses will offer cheaper equipment but then are you going to have the skillset to know what to do with it? RED will be a different paradigm with a small group of people who have Mastered the art and science of RED, and they will be in demand because they will offer a production another level of "insurance".

And for all you indie filmmakers crying because RED rentals won't be dirt cheap initially, just wait a few years for the dust to settle. But better to make your movie now with a rental (which will still save you a boatload of money) before the indie rush of films that will glut the market driving prices and opportunities down.

They benefits of RED will come in stages. He who makes the investment early - assuming more of the risk - will reap more benefits.

And if none of this logic convinces you, then please go rent a Varicam or a Viper. Those companies will soon be needing you more than they know and they will probably cut you a good deal.

But I welcome you to read these pages and listen to the wisdom and learn where the real value is. You might be amazed at what you will find out about RED... and yourself.

Aloha,

Keith

[Nathan Buxton]

I'm not completely up-to-date with all the accessories. but i would expect the minimum for that: Batteries to power for the day, storage for the media all day (possibly purchased by the production, depending on how the "standard" workflow develops), evf and other essentials. Lenses, matteboxes, and special rigs is seperate.

See, the thing is, it's not impossible to pull favours. The red one will not be a common piece of equipment, thus it needs to be rented. All other things like tripods, lenses, monitors and the such can be borrowed from people.

I'm not into the standard 100-union-member-crew kind of film making. I'm into small private yet professional operations.



[edit]

and to comment on keith's reply:

Yes a lot of the cost of a film production is the processing and film itself. But who knows what kind of process is involved with red? I don't. I'm also not naive enough to believe the process will be as easy as a miniDV production. We aren't dealing with small amounts of data here. It will require massive amounts of computing power and man-hours to deliver the footage to an acceptable end-format. I don't forsee that being a cheap and easy process until months after red's arrival.

[I Bloom]

I don't make films as a business, but you guys seem to want to use this as a business.

Nathan, before I can take you seriously please answer these questions:

What does it take for someone to spend enough time on film sets shooting to become a skilled cameraman. How much time?

What do they end up giving up in order to do that?

What does it take to put together the $50,000 or more you need to have a solid camera package?

What else could you have done for your life with that money?

Also, can I borrow your car and drive it back and forth coast to coast?

And stranger can I stay at you place for free for a couple months?

Are you catching my drift?

IBloom

[Nathan Buxton]

Nathan, before I can take you seriously please answer these questions:

What does it take for someone to spend enough time on film sets shooting to become a skilled cameraman. How much time?

What do they end up giving up in order to do that?

What does it take to put together the $50,000 or more you need to have a solid camera package?

What else could you have done for your life with that money?

Also, can I borrow your car and drive it back and forth coast to coast?

And stranger can I stay at you place for free for a couple months?

Are you catching my drift?

IBloom

I'm not saying people shouldn't profit on their investments in their equipment and themselves.

I simply don't believe the profit will be as big as some people believe.

An investment in camera equipment is just like any other investment: risk is inherent to the process. Nobody should be spending 50,000+ on camera equipment EXPECTING to triple that investment in the first year... If they can GREAT, but it will be hard to do that right out of the starting gates.

What I am arguing for is not people working for free. I am asking people to consider the benefit of providing early productions with relatively cheap access to the medium while everybody (including the operator) are getting accustomed to the whole process. This way everyone benefits: Films are made without going bankrupt. The RED is proven to be a practical and beautiful medium. And then, after that point there WILL be high demand and everyone who invested early will have the opportunity to take advantage of it because they will be experienced with the format and already own the rig.

Before RED is worked into the market as a standardized or even mildly accepted format, profit shouldn't be the primary goal.

[Nathan Buxton]

Oh, and so that you will take me seriously:

"
Nathan, before I can take you seriously please answer these questions:

What does it take for someone to spend enough time on film sets shooting to become a skilled cameraman. How much time?
Exactly 512 hours, no more no less.
What do they end up giving up in order to do that?
Enormous amounts of their time, relationships with their families and their sanity.
What does it take to put together the $50,000 or more you need to have a solid camera package?
Hard work and dedication.
What else could you have done for your life with that money?
Bought a 1994 Porsche 911.
Also, can I borrow your car and drive it back and forth coast to coast?
If you promise not to crash it.
And stranger can I stay at you place for free for a couple months?
Absolutely! If you need to!
Are you catching my drift?
Yes.
IBloom "

[Keith Nealy]

Nathan Buxton wrote:

and to comment on keith's reply:

Yes a lot of the cost of a film production is the processing and film itself. But who knows what kind of process is involved with red? I don't.

But we do.

I'm also not naive enough to believe the process will be as easy as a miniDV production.

We know that.


We aren't dealing with small amounts of data here. It will require massive amounts of computing power and man-hours to deliver the footage to an acceptable end-format.

We know that too.

I don't forsee that being a cheap and easy process until months after red's arrival.

It seems we are in agreement. This is why those of us who have spent months and months on this board (investing valuable time and shared wisdom) will have this to offer the industry when RED makes it's appearance.

This is show BUSINESS. We all love creativity as much as you do (that's what we do we do) but we all have realized that it is a business ( that's why we're still here - "still crazy after all these years")

Aloha,

Keith

[I Bloom]

Before RED is worked into the market as a standardized or even mildly accepted format, profit shouldn't be the primary goal.

I don't think anyones motivation here is profit. We all want to make amazing images and improve the work that we are producing. That's why all these guys are so crazy about RED, they're not thinking about money, they are thinking about images dripping off the screen.

I also think most of us will end up shooting some 4K very cheaply for people we love or projects we think have higher value. Many will be looking for projects to show off what their gear early on... Production with great locations, production design and etc might be in an excellent negotiating position.

I don't think REDcode is going to have the same acceptance curve as other formats. Its not that much heavier than HDCAM. Specialized equiptment will not be neccessary to work with it, you don't need to buy a new expensive deck for example, just a beefy mac with Final Cut Pro. With effort the footage can be converted to any existing format with a noticable difference in quality (check the milk girls torrent).

I think many producers who want this quality are already convinced.

And, buy the way, having RED guys with paid off equipment is a good thing for independent filmmakers, because once they are in the black those guys have the ability to do whatever they want.

In any case. Who knows what will happen...we shall see.

IBloom

[Bill Anderson]

adobeone- It doesn't matter if it's 4k or a box of donuts, mate. Digital or film. Sure, because RED hasn't hit the street yet, you can ask whatever you want, but as soon as there are boxes sitting in the RED warehouse, you and your "I can ask for the sky because it's a 4k" theory are hooped.

What the equipment does or how it does it is completely irrelevant to rental prices; because what the equipment does when rented, it also does when purchased. Let me spell it out: it's a 4k when rented, and it's a 4k when purchased. Do the math.

Of course it's a free market, but that shouldn't deny intelligence or logic.

As you say, it's not the camera, but the one who wields it that dictates its efficacy- but that's hardly an original observation.

Likewise, there is no need to "keep pounding" what 4k means to markets, or the filmmaker for that matter, that's generally considered as fully understood around these parts.

So, the best you and your renter's aspirations can hope for is a backlog in RED's availability. Nice.

[Julian Banos]

Nathan,

I understand that you feel very passionate about your project, I trully know how that goes. I also get that you can only finace 100K for it. This a really limited budget for your film, and this is why you would want somebody to rent you a RED for $500 a day. I think your reasoning towards the people who are going to rent REDs is a little skewed by the passion for your project.

I would suggest that you take that enthusiasm and aim at 1. Getting more funding or 2. Convincing a RED renter that your project is worth cutting their prices and exchanging that for being involve in a good film and maybe points.

I think its pointless that you call us greedy. Negotiation is more persuasion and convincing than trying to establish price controls.

Who knows you may find a renter who is more of an independent producer (shares the same spirit as you do) than a camera rental person.

[I Bloom]

What else could you have done for your life with that money?
Bought a 1994 Porsche 911.


Sorry, you got this one wrong.
Possible correct answers would be:

The down payment on a place to live.

A college education for your kids.

And your other answers I find troubling because you had to cast it as something that was needed.

I think you are a good guy and I appreciate your perspective. Just remmember, a film project is not a need its a want.

I have seen some folks who forgot or didn't realize this make some terrible choices in their lives.

IBloom

[Nathan Buxton]

Ok I am starting to learn here, so thanks! If you guys are doing all the post-processing and editing of the film included in that price than holy moly that is a heck of a steal! But i somehow doubt that is the case so your knowledge of the workflow isn't really relevant.

And ibloom i'm sorry my answers were just bologna.

I understand the risk you guys are putting out and don't discredit it.

but please, for the last time: I am not expecting to rent the red in any form for $500 a day. I realize that! But anything like 2k a day (unless it goes beyond simple rental and operation) just seems too inflated to hold. I'm not saying you SHOULDNT charge that if you CAN... I'm simply saying that at first, I personally am of the opinion that in the CANADIAN film market (I really have no experience at all with anything made in the US or abroad) these rental prices won't sustain themselves.

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

I know people who have made 35mm features for $100,000. Clearly shooting 4K digital won't be as cheap as many people had hoped. Films will continue be made in all formats from DV to 65mm film for some time to come.

Stephen

[Bill Anderson]

Nathan, if there are no cameras available for purchase and immediate delivery, then our entrepreneuring brothers can ask what their black hearts desire. And they just might get it, considering the alternatives. I'm just happy J. Jannard is cut from a different cloth, otherwise we'd all still be looking at 1/3inch sensors.

[Russ McDonald]

Bill
First I love Canada.

I came at this as a producer, not as an owner and operator. I think we all agree that territorial viewpoint, has been expertly covered by Ian.

You guy's got to get passed that, camera body,lens viewfinder, battery,and hard drive mentality. It's workflow and data management. They're not mutually exclusive. You can't have one without the other.

The phone is going to ring, and the guy or gal on the other end is going ask what they need. They don't know what you know, and it is your ethical responsibility to be frank.

You have to have one if not two additional drives.
You got to have a guy downloading and backing up the data.
Down coding for the companies future offline edit.
We haven't even gotten to the cost of the hardware do that.
How much of what is above going to cost you.

Bill I know your capable, but shit you don't have clones working for free.

I'm a Producer baby, and I'm good because, I hire good people and let them do there jobs. And right now were behind schedule, because my Actress refuses to come out of the trailer... The caterer looks like they may be late, and my boys need to eat... SAG on my ass because my Actor had to travel further than we said he have to, so I got pay a penalty... Or any number of emergency's that happen everyday all day.

Whether your just a part of, or you're the whole camera department my film and the considerable investment I have spent. Is in the 1's and 0's in zooming and turning in your system.

And for you or any owner and operator to bare that responsibility, and liability that goes with that. Is worth more the 500.00, 1000.00, 1500.00 dollars a day

[Bill Anderson]

Okay, okay.
Best.

[Russ McDonald]

Bill, I love you man

And your sentiments a warming my black heart.

Kinda feel like the Grinch, at the end of the second act of the movie.

Don't tell anybody though, I don't want my blood thirsty, artist soul sucking black hole of a Producer reputation, tarnished in anyway.

I had to steel allot of candy from babies, and yes I've tied my far share of school teachers to rail road tracks. To get it to bone chilling status.


•••• Why do they bury Producers 18 feet deep ?••••

[Bill Anderson]

Since when were producers considered artists? (:

[Nathan Buxton]

man adobeone you must be bi-polar or something, haha... i mean that in the best way possible! (I'm sure half of all acclaimed directors/producers/artists are bi-polar)


.

[Russ McDonald]

Why do they bury Producers 18 feet deep?

Because deep down they're really nice guys.

[mezmo]

Hi adobeone,
I'll ask again,can we see your stuff. You mentioned
that you put a film together for $100K or am I wrong.
do you have a website. I'd be interested to see what you
can do for that kind of money in the US.
Thanks Mezmo
BTW rental companies will set the price for Red IMHO.
just follow or come in a little cheaper.

[Russ McDonald]

Mezmo

The film I did was called Eddie's Night out and I shot it for Just under 50,000 dollars. I'm in post-production now. I'm still getting a site up, with all the stuff I'm doing. I'm getting private message, with the same request. (side bar here I've fallen behind on returning them, but I will)

So I'll try to get a myspace page up by Monday, and you can see a teaser trailer.

As far as the 100,000 goes that was an exercise, for Nathan's movie he wants to do next year. further back in the thread, Joe correctly pointed out that I was missing a few things in that post. I haven't read Nathan's screenplay, so there is allot of unknowns. The technology has made it possible to make that kind of budget work. Every price I used I can get.

So can you, knowing were to spent it is the art. Which thankfully for the future of this business, and great gifts that some move deliver, is personally attainable, or finically acquirable. Gibby, Brook, Ian, and yes evan Dave down under. Maybe not Gibby he sold out Mr. Busy, Mister "I got to make my mortgage payment and fallow my dream."

I don't sound bitter do I.

LA user group rocks, Which if you have taken anything away from this, it was Shane V8f who started the ball rolling.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I can see reservation holders charging a huge premium for use of their RED... Work it, baby! Work it.. Milk it for all it's worth!

But once demand levels off I don't see some of these hopeful prices really working out. RED's image quality and other advantages can only go so far to inflate the rental price. There is a "breaking point" where people are just going to say "f--- you, I'll buy my own". If renting a camera body costs someone 60% or more of buying their own over a couple weeks, they're not going to rent.

Due to RED's low price point, I don't think we're going to see many camera body or bare-bones rentals out there. Rental houses are going to make rental packages with the camera and they're going to make money on what they rent you along with the camera. People won't want to pay $1500/day for a $17.5K camera body. But they may gladly pay $3000-$5000 or more per day for the camera with premium production pack accessories, Arri mattebox, cooke prime set, O'Connor 2060 w/sticks, a few batteries, charger, RED DRIVEs, and FLASH module... Maybe even a nicely configured Macbook Pro already loaded with REDCINE and other workflow tools.

I'm seriously wondering if a small outfit or independent RED owners can even justify or realistically expect to rent out their RED kits once demand settles. A rental house that can configure various RED rental packages and provide the service and support plans, insurance, etc... will do just fine. But I don't see how someone who owns a camera, a few batteries, a tripod system, and a few lenses (especially if they're still / SLR lenses) can offer enough options to keep that camera busy enough to make money and support it, insure it, etc..

To me, an independent or small boutique that rents out RED will be doing it occasionally, when the cameras are not busy, just to bring in a few extra bucks. Those in that situation who are trying to make a business plan out of renting RED probably won't do so hot. I just don't see it... The camera will make more money if you just pick it up and use it.

That's my opinion... At least for tonight. And I'm tired and grumpy.

Right now I have no slam-dunk way to make money in the film industry, or at least not enough money to be worth my while honestly, but I do believe the RED will change that. I don't think it's naive or overly optimistic to think that a good businessman offering the right tools and services can make a very nice profit off a RED package.

But what I agree with you on is offering some selection and services. I want to make sure I have everything someone needs to shoot, not only every lens available but also a top-of-the-line tripod, I already have a new and fully loaded MacBook Pro with software, and I want to make sure that between my friend and I we have at least one backup RED body in case of failure. I also want to offer a variety of recording options so that someone who rents from me isn't limited to just one, but can decide how they would like to shoot.

I have to go against the grain here a bit and say I laugh at the notion that small operators or owners can't compete with big rental companies in price, and shouldn't try. I mean literally that makes me laugh out loud -- it's the other way around. They can't compete with me, and shouldn't even try. They offer many more products, many more options, and a reliable name that is trusted in the industry, let's say, all GREAT things! And good reasons to use them. But they can't hope to compete with any private owner or operator in price, haha, what a joke. Not even close. Their overhead is vastly above what mine is. If they tried to compete with everyone like me out there who has limited overhead they would go out of business. Where big rental companies excel is being well known, trusted companies that are ideal for major productions to use. I am not trying to be the guy who rents the RED for Spider-Man 4 or something, haha, I'm trying to be the guy who rents to the mid-level music video, or the small commercial shoot, or an indie feature, or a PSA, etc. I can't compete with a major rental company on major productions. But they can't compete with me on small productions, and shouldn't bother trying, either. It's just different segments of the market. It's hard to be all things to all people, that's all I'm saying.

I haven't decided yet how I'll go about pricing a rental package, I really need to see more what other people are doing and how I can offer an attractive deal that (if the producer wants) includes additional services like on-set logging and capturing, backup, etc. I was thinking that at most for the equipment itself I would charge $1,500 per day with three-day weeks, one-day weekends ($1,500 gets you the package for a weekend), etc. But a lot of people would probably say that is way too low of a price, though I can't say I agree. It's a matter of how often I can rent it out, too.

I feel like what I would be offering would be a fair price, basically you'd get an on-site laptop for capturing, an HD reference monitor, a great tripod, follow focus, matte box, prime lens set, two zoom lenses anyway (18-50 and 50-150), probably four batteries and two chargers, whatever recording media you'd prefer (I might say you get two RED Drives standard, but if you want another option it costs more), the LCD screen, EVF, production pack, etc. I think that for $1,500 per day that's an excellent deal, and since if you want it for a five-day week you're going to pay about $900 per day after the discount, that's pretty much an awesome deal compared to what some people want to charge.

At the same time, as I figure, you're talking about roughly $85,000 or so in equipment, give or take a bit, so this 1% idea some people are throwing around is idiotic beyond belief if you're talking about actually pricing $85,000 in equipment to $850 per day, then discounting from there. No chance. I don't know where you see that, I've never seen that. I've seen rental companies charging $200 to rent an XL-2, which is a $3,000 camera, my math IS a little shaky sometimes but I'm pretty sure that's not 1% of the camera's price. In fact... not even close. You think the RED will ever rent for $175 a day for jus the body? I think you're probably insane, and should re-consider what industry you want to be in. $350 for just the body? Yeah, sure, not including anything else whatsoever, sure. That's more realistic perhaps after demand and supply are more equal. But the 1% idea, no, and also nobody would make a business out of that. It'd be lame.

Now in my case if you're getting the package for $900 per day with the discount, and I paid about 100 times that much for it, that's about 1% -- but that's because you're renting everything at once, so you get a great discount. But if someone wanted to rent just my RED body and said they'd pay me $170 I'd laugh and say go home little boy.

The reason I think my price is fair is because it's a good balance between making my money back in a reasonable period of time yet not charging anyone so much they may as well buy it. I could rent someone all of that equipment for let's say $15,000 for a month and still feel good about it. I'd have $15,000 in my pocket, which would pay back a bit under 20% of what I paid, but there's no way the production can say they'd have been better off buying it because that would cost them 5-6 times what they paid me, and they'd have to deal with storing it, renting it out themselves, selling it later, whatever. If you shoot for let's say 4-6 weeks per year and you pay my prices, you're going to have to wait about five years to be able to say "I could have bought it with all I spent on rentals," only in five years no doubt a lot of that equipment would need to be replaced or upgraded, etc. Seems pretty fair to me.

But if everyone else is still charging outrageous sums of money I will not undercut anyone severely, I'm not out for price wars, I want to offer a good overall experience and service. I'd prefer that than just renting the equipment, like really know the ins and outs of shooting in 4K and the workflow, then make my clients very happy with the service they get, not rely on just poor, pathetic producers trying to get a break renting my equipment only because it's cheap. That's not what I'd prefer.

This was a great thread, btw, read every page.

[mezmo]

Hi adobeone,
Thanks for the info on "Eddie's Night Out",look forward
to seeing the trailer up on Myspace.
Don't forget about things like E & O Insurance if your
going out via cable, free to air or theatrical.
Can be a little expensive if you have a lot of uncleared
stuff in the finished flick.
To get a quick uncomplicated sale it can be good to
have that particular house in order.
Cheers Mezmo.

[Russ McDonald]

I hear that bro or sista, I am wired tight on that. Thanks for looking out for my caboose though.

[Jonas Nyström]

In Sweden a Sony Cinealta 24P HDW 900 production set goes for about $1400/day (with Pro35 and HS Primes), operator not included (of course).

I can not (at all) see why a RED premium pack should go under that price.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

In Sweden a Sony Cinealta 24P HDW 900 production set goes for about $1400/day (with Pro35 and HS Primes), operator not included (of course).

I can not (at all) see why a RED premium pack should go under that price.

Well it just plainly shouldn't… that's why.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Exactly. I don't care what the F900 costs, it could cost $2 billion, it still shouldn't rent for more than the RED because compared to the RED it's a child's plaything not suited for shooting wedding videos or your dog running around the back yard, let's be honest. It was nice when it came out, and that was a freakin' LONG time ago in digital years. It served its purpose well, and before the RED ships continues to be a nice tool. That being said, there's no reason whatsoever to use something bulky, expensive, and outdated any further when a much better alternative exists that offers you more flexibility.

The cost of something is relevant to its rental price, sure, but only to a degree. When you're talking about something that is old, like the F900, its previous cost is completely irrelevant to its current value in the marketplace. Its value has been undermined by superior technology that happens to be much cheaper. Does that mean the RED should necessarily rent for more than the F900 at its peak? No. Does that mean the F900 should plummet in what it costs to rent because its value can't match new technology that is cheaper? Yes, absolutely.

If the RED rents for $500 per day for just the body and a viewfinder, let's say, the F900 should rent for about $300 a day. I don't care what it costs, that's absolutely irrelevant. They better have it paid for by this point, that should have been built into the business plan. Everyone knows that when you were buying digital technology that was rapidly improving, you're not going to expect that a piece of equipment like that will still be suitable a decade down the road. It's the same with computers. I paid $9,000 for a 2.5 Ghz dual G5 a few years ago with 8 gigs of RAM. You can get a better desktop now for like $4,000. If I rented out my computer, should I charge more for it than a new, better computer just because I paid more? Of course not. That's totally illogical.

[Stephen Williams]

Exactly. I don't care what the F900 costs, it could cost $2 billion, it still shouldn't rent for more than the RED because compared to the RED it's a child's plaything not suited for shooting wedding videos or your dog running around the back yard, let's be honest. It was nice when it came out, and that was a freakin' LONG time ago in digital years. It served its purpose well, and before the RED ships continues to be a nice tool. That being said, there's no reason whatsoever to use something bulky, expensive, and outdated any further when a much better alternative exists that offers you more flexibility.

The cost of something is relevant to its rental price, sure, but only to a degree. When you're talking about something that is old, like the F900, its previous cost is completely irrelevant to its current value in the marketplace. Its value has been undermined by superior technology that happens to be much cheaper. Does that mean the RED should necessarily rent for more than the F900 at its peak? No. Does that mean the F900 should plummet in what it costs to rent because its value can't match new technology that is cheaper? Yes, absolutely.

If the RED rents for $500 per day for just the body and a viewfinder, let's say, the F900 should rent for about $300 a day. I don't care what it costs, that's absolutely irrelevant. They better have it paid for by this point, that should have been built into the business plan. Everyone knows that when you were buying digital technology that was rapidly improving, you're not going to expect that a piece of equipment like that will still be suitable a decade down the road. It's the same with computers. I paid $9,000 for a 2.5 Ghz dual G5 a few years ago with 8 gigs of RAM. You can get a better desktop now for like $4,000. If I rented out my computer, should I charge more for it than a new, better computer just because I paid more? Of course not. That's totally illogical.

Hi Jonthan,

The F900R is actually a very new camera, not all F900's are equal.

Stephen

[Michael Brennan]

....At the same time, as I figure, you're talking about roughly $85,000 or so in equipment, give or take a bit, so this 1% idea some people are throwing around is idiotic beyond belief if you're talking about actually pricing $85,000 in equipment to $850 per day, then discounting from there. No chance. I don't know where you see that, I've never seen that. I've seen rental companies charging $200 to rent an XL-2, which is a $3,000 camera, my math IS a little shaky sometimes but I'm pretty sure that's not 1% of the camera's price. In fact... not even close. You think the RED will ever rent for $175 a day for jus the body? I think you're probably insane, and should re-consider what industry you want to be in. $350 for just the body? Yeah, sure, not including anything else whatsoever, sure. That's more realistic perhaps after demand and supply are more equal. But the 1% idea, no, and also nobody would make a business out of that. It'd be lame.


Jonathon, you seem to be calling me or my post insane and idiotic?

The fact is that 1% per day is a industry standard rate for pro kit for a good commercial return. Owner operators then discount this rate, as bits of the kit, like lighting and tripod and grip kit get paid off over time.


It is dangerous to compare rates in his thread as RED users package value can vary between $30 to $100k.
And established operators with existing lenses and tripods can discount the total package rate.

That is why the % figure is used by leasing companies.

Jonathon, comparing rates for DV equipment is not sound as DV is amortized over a shorter period thus has a higher daily rate for many reasons, including shorter life expectancy, whereas life expectancy of pro kit especially lenses is much longer.

There are exceptions with new technology due to supply and demand which I have had many years of experience.
When I imported the first Jimmy Jib to Europe I got 3% for the daily rate until a half dozen more were imported a year later.

When I bought the first f900 as a DP owner operater in Europe, the demand for its use was low and the reverse happend to the daily rate. I've rarely achieved 1% for my f900 kit by the way.


Rates for rental equipment is dictated by supply and demand and cost of the equipment.

Linking rates in the long term to the quality of picture has yet to succeed, so please keep me informed of you rate discussions with producers!

Goota go, time for my medication :)


Mike Brennan

[Jeremy Torrie]

Well the 900R still records 1440x1080 with 8 bit compression to tape at a write speed of 145/Mb/sec. That's old technology. Updated with HD-SDI out saves a few grand by not buying an outboard downconverter, but it still lists at $79,900. Sony has even listed B stock on the 900/H at $53,900. WAAAY too much. Now the Panny 3000 is supposedly $51,000 with the Intra board and it is only 1920x1080. The rental rates on these are going to HAVE to go down once Red has it's first thousand or so units delivered.

There are few of us however who will be able to competently act as DIT's for the camera units, and related workflows, so it's certainly going to be interesting to see how demand will work as far as including a hire for the owner to be the DIT. There's too much at stake when you're spending tens or hundreds of thousands per day.

Maybe there's an ancillary business for Jarred et al in the workshop arena for certification on the Red? After all, he's done it before, and I wouldn't doubt he hasn't already thought of it.

[donatello b]

"it's the other way around. They can't compete with me, and shouldn't even try."

price isn't everything ... you might have a sachtler head and the DP wants a miller ... you have a brand X FF and the AC wants Arri 5 FF ... when the AC checks out the equipment at a rental house perhaps they don't like the "feel " of the Arri 5 FF so they ask for a different Arri 5 FF and that one "feels" better and if not they might switch to a different FF ....
too low $ rental attracts no budget or almost no budgets projects ... a project with 10 mil budget doesn't care if the rental price from a individual is 100 week and same equipment is 2500 week at rental house = they'll get it from rental house because of SERVICE - the 2400 week savings can be lost in a few hours "IF" ....

... now if the budget is 100K then 2400 savings does make a difference ...
from my experience over the years i tend to find no budgets extremely demanding , they tend to want everything for nothing and expect the same service that one would get from panavision ....

there's room for different rental prices ... no budgets ( under 100k) will be looking for the "deal" ... 1mil project might consider a different $ rental then a 15mil budget project ....

[Nathan Buxton]

Donatello, good points, and that's what it ultimately comes down to :what people are willing to pay, and to whom they are willing to pay it.

I think a lot of you are in for a surprise!

[Emmanuel Cambier]

If productions, big and small are facing the choice between renting expensive (film), outdated (red's competition) and the Red; I'm guessing the Red will be in very high demand until something better comes around.
Anyway I look at it, I come to the same conclusion:
-Red will and should start with pretty high rate, depending on the kit, the service and the reputation of who is renting, anywhere between 1500$ and 5000$ a day
-Then when the market gets flooded with RedOnes it could settle to something like 750$ or 500$ to 2000$ or 3000$ a day.

It screems logical to me at least, and I strongly believe this goes along the most classical market rules : demand and offer.

The demand will vary greatly depending on the results the prototypes are having with the features being shot right now. If it's a failure, we may have to settle for a bitter meal.
But if those protos score Big Time, then we may be in for a jolly good time renting our cameras.
Then let's not fool ourselves, it won't last but for the most talented, reputable, and prepared among us. I wish I was a bit more of all this, but that's another story.:umm:

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

"it's the other way around. They can't compete with me, and shouldn't even try."

price isn't everything ... you might have a sachtler head and the DP wants a miller ... you have a brand X FF and the AC wants Arri 5 FF ... when the AC checks out the equipment at a rental house perhaps they don't like the "feel " of the Arri 5 FF so they ask for a different Arri 5 FF and that one "feels" better and if not they might switch to a different FF ....
too low $ rental attracts no budget or almost no budgets projects ... a project with 10 mil budget doesn't care if the rental price from a individual is 100 week and same equipment is 2500 week at rental house = they'll get it from rental house because of SERVICE - the 2400 week savings can be lost in a few hours "IF" ....

... now if the budget is 100K then 2400 savings does make a difference ...
from my experience over the years i tend to find no budgets extremely demanding , they tend to want everything for nothing and expect the same service that one would get from panavision ....

there's room for different rental prices ... no budgets ( under 100k) will be looking for the "deal" ... 1mil project might consider a different $ rental then a 15mil budget project ....

Yup. I think that's exactly what I said! But thank you for agreeing :)

And I still stand by saying that nobody is going to charge 1% of their package per day to rent the equipment. I don't see rental houses doing that, either. I saw a few price lists and the lowest was still nothing near 1% per day. You can quote that number all you want but I've looked at rental equipment prices all over and seen nothing like that. I've even seen them renting out shotgun boom mic setups that cost $900 for $45 per day. Even with three-day weeks that isn't 1% per day, which would be like not even $10 ;) Nobody would bother.

[Stephen Williams]

-Red will and should start with pretty high rate, depending on the kit, the service and the reputation of who is renting, anywhere between 1500$ and 5000$ a day


Hi,

For those rates people can shoot S16 & 35mm, strangly I usually shoot 35mm, my budgets seem too small for RED.

Stephen

[Michael Brennan]

Exactly.
If the RED rents for $500 per day for just the body and a viewfinder, let's say, the F900 should rent for about $300 a day. I don't care what it costs, that's absolutely irrelevant. They better have it paid for by this point, that should have been built into the business plan. Everyone knows that when you were buying digital technology that was rapidly improving, you're not going to expect that a piece of equipment like that will still be suitable a decade down the road. It's the same with computers. I paid $9,000 for a 2.5 Ghz dual G5 a few years ago with 8 gigs of RAM. You can get a better desktop now for like $4,000. If I rented out my computer, should I charge more for it than a new, better computer just because I paid more? Of course not. That's totally illogical.


No argument that use of 2/3 inch for dramas and commercials will be severley affected by RED, based on REDs higher quality in a segment where camera rental is a relativley low percentage of the budget.

But there is too much invested in tape decks, 2/3 cameras and 2/3 inch HD lenses for DVCPROHD or HDCAM to be written off in the next few years.

It is only when RED has proved that it can do 2/3 as well or better than Sony Panasonic that the tide will begin to turn for what has been the majority of work so far for the thousands of HDTV cameras.

To steal work from f900r for TV programming the 1st question asked will be "is it cheaper"?

Until RED has a track record those trying to do HDTV work will have to be near current HDTV kit on price.

This may not bode well for owner operators in the low budget commercials, drama and features market trying to get a (big) premium for the same core components.



Mike Brennan

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Hi,

For those rates people can shoot S16 & 35mm, strangly I usually shoot 35mm, my budgets seem too small for RED.

Stephen

Hi Stephen

That's precisely what I mean :

For those rates you can shoot S16 or 35mm OR you can shoot Red wish Peter Jackson describes as the closest thing to 65mm. Others high end DPs (David Mullen…)compare it to S35.

Now for the same money which do you prefer : S16 35mm S35mm 65mm.

If I was running a production with a decent budget, I know what I would pick.

It's a matter of choice

And please remember that I quoted those rates under the condition that the prototypes used on Wanted and the CHE are delivering the goods, and that the buzz creates a hell of a demand.

Yours

Emmanuel

[Michael Brennan]

Yup. I think that's exactly what I said! But thank you for agreeing :)

And I still stand by saying that nobody is going to charge 1% of their package per day to rent the equipment. I don't see rental houses doing that, either. I saw a few price lists and the lowest was still nothing near 1% per day. You can quote that number all you want but I've looked at rental equipment prices all over and seen nothing like that. I've even seen them renting out shotgun boom mic setups that cost $900 for $45 per day. Even with three-day weeks that isn't 1% per day, which would be like not even $10 ;) Nobody would bother.

Jonathan you give me another opportunity to drive home my point.

In the previous post you used a DV camera for rates comprison now you use a microphone?

Why don't you look at rates for professional camera equipment!
Here is a rate card chosen from a competative video rental company in the UK. Look at the rental prices for cameras and lenses and you'll find most fit into the 1% range.
http://www.vmi.tv/ratecard/vmi-hire-ratecard.pdf
ie HD lens that cost £15k is £150 per day to rent.
f900r camera body that costs approx £45k rents for £450
ect
Remember these are rate card prices, they do go lower on negotiation and for regular customers...


By the way my research shows a 416 shotgun mic is $1100, Rycote suspension kit and wind gag $680 and flight case with custom foam $120
Such a kit in the rate card above rents for £12 per day, about $20 or 1%


At the high end a Cineflex V14 stabilised aerial camera is $495k with recorder and accessories the total is around $600k.
Comparing prices worldwide the average day rate for the V14 is $4k to $5k or less than 1%.


As much as I'd like to be proven wrong, historically, 1% is the starting rate... I see no reason for RED and its accessories to be any different in the mid to long term.



Mike Brennan

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Stephen

That's precisely what I mean :

For those rates you can shoot S16 or 35mm OR you can shoot Red wish Peter Jackson describes as the closest thing to 65mm. Others high end DPs (David Mullen…)compare it to S35.

Now for the same money which do you prefer : S16 35mm S35mm 65mm.

If I was running a production with a decent budget, I know what I would pick.

It's a matter of choice

And please remember that I quoted those rates under the condition that the prototypes used on Wanted and the CHE are delivering the goods, and that the buzz creates a hell of a demand.

Yours

Emmanuel

Hi Emmanuel,

I remember James Cameron saying a F900 was equal to 65mm & George Lucas said it was better than 35mm, I did not agree with them at the time!

I would probably go with 35mm Anamorphic and a photochemical finish, depending on the script, probably the best value / quality solution. Looking forward to a Red v 35 anamorphic back to back test.

However if a loaded Red was $500 a day then Red would be cheaper, at up to $5000 it's not

Stephen

[Evin Grant]

I decided to price an Aaton 35 at Abelcine because I think size wise it's the closest 35mm camera to the Red. I can get a full package less lenses for $685 a day. Including a good tripod/head, mattebox, follow focus and necessary stuff like Mags and batts. Lenses are more expensive but sine I'll start with a complete Nikkor Prime/Zoom set so I priced those from Sammy's camera at about $261 per day. That puts us right in at $946 add $50 for a Macbok pro and I think $1000 a day is a pretty good price for a Red/Nikkor shooting package. I do think demand may bring this higher in the begining but I like the nice round feeling of $1000 a day. Substitute Red lenses, Zooms+Primes and you're talking $1800-$2k per day.

[donatello b]

the Aaton 35 might be around the same size as the RED but it is not so silent ... in general on interiors for sync sound it's too noisy ... exteriors you can probably get away with it ? ...
IMO if you are doing a project without actors then it would be a good camera to compare to RED ... however if you are using actors then IMO find a silent camera to compare against RED

[Nik Manning]

Okay I have an opinion. As a video editor I cannot see RED camera rentals costing more than a Varicam rental in the future when there are enough RED cams around to cover demand. In the short term yes you can command a premium because you can't get it anywhere but after that phase it will be a regular rental item. I think $800 tops was my answer in the poll. The way to make cash on it is to bundle it with lenses,monitors,etc. that cost a lot of money then you can rent you 80k package.

One thing that you aren't factoring in is the proven workflow of using Varicam and f900 cams. Just like folks still shoot film because it has been proven to work again and again.
You expect all that to change immediately because of one camera? Not gonna happen! Yes in 3 years there will be RED cameras used on a lot of major productions but don't doubt the stubbornness of professionals. These HDcam decks and DVCPROHD decks will be the brains of many productions for years to come. So yes indie filmmakers will jump on RED to make a flick, but don't expect TV to jump so quick. Remember None of the TV stations broadcast in 4K! So that is a huge market that doesn't need to rent 4K.

Also with the sentimental rental rates that is higher than a popular camera that cost 2X the money is crazy. I just hope you didn't write your business plan with $1500 a day rate for 2 years for 24k worth of equipment cause the market won't let that happen. Yes professional rental companies may charge close to that but if your not that you will charge less, but oh there are also 700 guys renting their RED cameras so it is going to be difficult to charge high prices.

This isn't for the folks that hopped on early as they will probably pay off there cameras in the first 6 months as the demand will be high enough to charge 2k per day with a minimum 10 day month rental. 1 month and it is almost paid off. Lucky/Crazy/Brilliant move.

All I am saying is this camera is for people who plan on making movies not people who plan on renting it out and paying it off in 6 months if you aren't in the top 1000.

[Nathan Buxton]

Look the point you guys are all missing is that sure, there is a buzz about RED, and sure technically it should get better images... but it will not be instantly practical to use so there won't be as much demand as is anticipated.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

I decided to price an Aaton 35 at Abelcine because I think size wise it's the closest 35mm camera to the Red. I can get a full package less lenses for $685 a day. Including a good tripod/head, mattebox, follow focus and necessary stuff like Mags and batts. Lenses are more expensive but sine I'll start with a complete Nikkor Prime/Zoom set so I priced those from Sammy's camera at about $261 per day. That puts us right in at $946 add $50 for a Macbok pro and I think $1000 a day is a pretty good price for a Red/Nikkor shooting package. I do think demand may bring this higher in the begining but I like the nice round feeling of $1000 a day. Substitute Red lenses, Zooms+Primes and you're talking $1800-$2k per day.

Thats about what I was going to charge for my package. Good to hear. I'll add a small fee for operating, until my expertise becomes more expensive/valuable.

[Nik Manning]

Look the point you guys are all missing is that sure, there is a buzz about RED, and sure technically it should get better images... but it will not be instantly practical to use so there won't be as much demand as is anticipated.
Exactly! Plus there will be 1000 other folks with RED cams trying to rent them out. I still want to hold one so bad. Yeah if I had the money and a project I would pay 2k per day to rent it if I couldn't get it anywhere else when the first batch is released.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I think there is no middle ground in this whole discussion to be honest, you have one group of people who are convinced you should be able to rent your RED for $1,000 per day even though a basic RED package only costs $35,000, and these people are talking not about that $35K but about $17,500 plus $3,000 EVF and the production pack, so not even $25,000 in equipment for $1,000 per day, that's insane.

Then you have the other group acting like RED owners and operators are basically going to have to prepare for giving their equipment away for free because nobody is going to pay for it, blah blah, namely Nathan, who has no clue at all about market conditions but just wishes REDs were cheaper so he could use one, obvious from every post you make, Nathan.

On both sides, it's people with a certain interest, the one group that may not have a RED on order wants to think prices will be cheap and affordable. The group that ordered early wants to think this is finally their ticket to that mansion in Beverly Hills, or something.

Mick -- I've still not seen the prices you are talking about at almost any rental company I've ever been to. Maybe with all relevant discounts you can get that good of a deal, but not over here you can't, I've seen rental prices at many, many places. If you're telling me that you think rental companies are ever going to charge $175 to rent the RED one body I think you're insane, it's not going to happen. Not unless they're massively overcharging for everything else, in which case it's a total loss-leader and irrelevant.

Back to what I was saying, I think people should be pleased with an economically reasonable return on investment for their equipment, because it's a slam-dunk that you're going to be able to rent out your equipment for reasonable prices. If I have $85,000 in equipment, I'd be satisfied renting it out for $850 per day after discounts (the 1%, which I think you can still get more than), but not before. I could still charge extra for additional services and be making easily more than $1,000 per day, which isn't that bad of money. As it's not what I want to do primarily, I have my own filmmaking goals, as a nice side business it would be fine.

None of that logic applies to the first few months of the RED, I'm sure early reservation holders will make a lot more. But some people on here are acting like you're dreaming to think you can make $1,000 per day off a complete package for the RED, which is not the case. It won't be difficult at all to rent out a package like that frequently. Exactly because of what Stephen said, another skeptic on here -- you can't rent anything else that good for $1,000 per day (prime lenses, zoom lenses, reference monitor, tripod, 4K camera, on-set laptop for capturing, follow focus, matte box, batteries, recording media, etc? You're going to find that for a better deal? Good luck). I don't think there's any chance I could be disappointed for what I can charge for the equipment I will have, because even if it was as low as $850 per day for all of that I still wouldn't be crying. I could make a solid return and if I could keep the package rented out for just more than 10 days per month I could make $10,000 per month of my investment back. In a year I'd have the package easily paid for.

[Nathan Buxton]

It's not that I wish it was cheaper... I wish it was more readily available becuase i want to shoot early 2008

[Evin Grant]

And how long is your shoot and what do you have for a rental?
You may find it's entirely possible if you have good material.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I'd help you out for a more reasonable price, Nathan, but I don't get my camera package until probably February.

[I Bloom]

It's not that I wish it was cheaper... I wish it was more readily available becuase i want to shoot early 2008

If you are making a short, think about the HVX200 with a P+S mini 35 adapter and some Zeiss Superspeeds. The REDrock M2 and some still primes is also great.

Really, I mean great. That system looks awesome even at 720p. I'm speaking in storytelling terms.

RED is a holy grail right now, just like film has been. Its more important to make your film and save your money for the next film, then wait around for the best format and spend a bunch of loot on it. Truly, its not that important. You should be more focused on your script, actors, and the objects and places that will be infront of the camera. There lies success. Not some pixels.

IMHO Coveting RED should be for camera jockeys only. Aspiring filmmakers should just go make films.

IBloom

[Nathan Buxton]

That's really true! I have been looking into other things like the hpx500. I wanted to use the red becuase i really believe in the project and think it would be a good showcase for the camera. I will wait and see what the actual rental rates are and go from there.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

If the rental rates are too ridiculous from major houses, Nathan, you would be best off finding a smaller owner / operator because I know some of us don't intend to charge $3,000 per day ;)

I agree that the setup IBloom was talking about could look really nice, though.

I think a lot of rental prices are ridiculous, though, not just what some people want to make from the RED. I'm sorry but $300 to $400 for an HVX-200 is a joke. I could buy it, use it on a few shoots, and re-sell it and be better off. Or just keep it to rent out for smaller budget productions, behind-the-scenes footage, whatever.

[Stephen Webb]

http://www.vmi.tv/ratecard/vmi-hire-ratecard.pdf

Thanks for posting that Mick, very useful. I've just priced up an F900R kit by their list and it looks like I'll be offering my Red for about half the price (based on a semi-equivalent package).

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hi,

I voted <500k and this is the reason:

As stated in the poll we are talking about a RED body, EVF and production pack. No batteries, lenses, s.o. An aquivalent package in the F900 world will cost you around € 500,- a day (Germany) - if you are a frequent customer.

A RED with the EVF and the production package will cost the rental house approx. 25k - this is less than half of the costs for a F900R (55k).

I am pretty sure the RED with EFV and production package will go for the same amount or even less. The rates for the F900R may decrease a bit since the new kid will outperform it on most specs. Good news for F900 fans.

Rental houses make their money with lighting, grip and other items which hold value for a long time (35mm lenses for instance which will be perfect for RED.)

Infact the rental houses I know see RED as a digital 35mm Camera body, check out the rates for an Arri 235 body with VF and a BP9-Plate with rods...

Remember that a fully tricked out 35mm package with zoom and primes will be close to 2k a day, no reason why the same package with a RED body should be cheaper. RED is not a competitor to the HVX200 or even a replacement...

Then there is the strong need for backup which will need some budget as well and which is not fully sorted out yet.

I won't rent out my RED, since we will use it only for our own projects. But I am very happy that my favourit rental house will get REDs for them selfs, so there is always a backup for the impossible...

Hans

[Russ McDonald]

What you are seeing is an actual Quote I received from one of many rental houses, for my partners first movie as a Director. This Is a Viper and all that you need to shoot an actual movie. I'm a good negotiator I could probably shave 200.00 hear and there on various day rates. This is a two camera shoot. no personal other than initial set up is included. I've seen Viper footage, and I've seen red footage. It is clear to me who the winner is. 4 week shoot 28 days 12 rental days.


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No speculation, real world quote.

FYI some 35mm film numbers for you. Fuji 35mm 400 8582, special deal from Raw in NY. .25 cents a foot. 90min finished film=8100 feet 10:1 shooting ratio=81000 @ .25= 20,250.00, nothing exposed. Remember 2000.00 a day for all the stuff you do after light hit's negative. (refer to earlier in the thread for details) 28 days @ 2000.00 = 56,000.00 that's 76,250.00. We haven't even gotten to the camera yet.

If you quote a Producer 4000.00 a day for a complete Package with all the personal, and a bullet poof work flow with solid data management. This all at a 3 day week. Your saving the company 28,250.00 remember there is no money figure in for the cost of 35mm camera gear which he still has to pay.

This is what the savvy Producers know, that you don't, or are unwilling to except. They don't care about all the tech shit we obsess about. Why because the butts in the seats don't really care, they can't tell the difference, with red we can barely tell.

He sees the future, 10 years from now 4k I suspect will be just like HDTV today. He'll be ready to re-tread the old tire, and sell it again. Because he's a good businessman or Woman.

As a business person if your Customer knows more, about the value of your business than you do. Your not much of a business person, you're a Chump and will learn the painful laws of diminishing return. Sad to say I'll most likely be picking up your gear on the secondary market.

This is not f9 whatever, it's not HDV, its a feature film camera. Designed for that purpose.

So stop acting like a bunch of Nancy's. Unless of course you're really a Nancy. In that case get up on that feminist Horse and kick some male dominate ass girl friend.

You price right, some will hang up, but most will call back.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Nice post.

I just don't think rental prices will be at the extremes that either party really thinks, I mean there's no way you will ever get a RED body, EVF, and production pack for $200 per day. It just won't happen. Ok maybe 35 years from now, but I'm talking realistically any time in the next five years, it isn't going to happen. I've seen the Canon XL-2 rent for $225 per day, and that's a $3,000 camera. And you can't say, "Well blah blah it's complete blah blah," get a clue. The RED isn't even close to the level of a freakin' prosumer miniDV camera, you won't find it renting for that kind of price. If you can find it for $500 per day, three day weeks that's going to be an excellent deal. That means most likely if you want it for a month the company will give you further breaks, let's say maybe even 10 to 12 rental days at $500. Even if it was $6,000, that is $23,000 or so in equipment, you can't really say you'd be better off just buying it, because you wouldn't. Not if you're shooting one project, anyway.

But neither will people pay outrageous sums for something they'll be able to buy fairly easily by March 2008, I don't think. Keeping things fair seems the best business plan to me, and as some people mentioned, providing a complete solution for the workflow of the camera, really working with the producer to make the shoot go well on the camera side, that is a service people will pay money to obtain. That's where you can squeeze out some extra cash.

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hi Adobeone,

what your are saying is right. RED is going to be like any other camera in the market. If you get a Viper for the quote you quoted in your post, you'll get a RED in a year or so for the same price. It's all just pro equipment.

Though there are rental houses which dump and other which don't have to.
Good for you and your film.

This inconstancy in fees and the fact that you are responsible for your equipment and its reliability is the major reason why most DOP do not own equipment. Two very different businesses.

Hans

[ZzzZZz...]

Weird emotional thread...

well adobeone, if demanding a low price for good equipment makes you a nancy, then I guess you should complain to jannard, since he then would qualify as the mother of all nancies...

Rental price has a natural limit, and that is the price of purchasing the equipment. And I think it will be hard to demand more than 500$ a day for something that cost 20.000$ sure there will be all the additional equipment and personel but that is not what the poll was aiming at...

[Zakaree Sandberg]

supply and demand.... supply and demand!

[Matthew Rogers]

I think one of the issues here is that the poll was skewed to start with. Not having a lens with the camera means that you can't shoot jack crap with it. Not having a battery means you can shoot jack crap...

Really min rental is a Red body, basic production pack, EVF or LCD, lens, CF card or Red Drive, and battery. You really have to have ALL of those things to shoot like you would if you rented a HVX, Varicam, or Viper.

As for lenses, if you need a ENG style lens, it's gonna cost you $3,500 for the B4 adapter, and the cheapest HD ENG lens at B&H is $8,000. So already you are upto $11,500 for ENG and that's not even a good lens.

So that with a RED body, BPP, EVF, Red Drive, & battery is gonna cost $38,000. That sure as heck ain't a $6,000 HVX.

Here's what I feel about 1% rental value vs quality. If red delivers 35MM film quality, then what is that worth you? Is it not worth some $$$ for the work flow RED provides? I mean, being able to monitor in HD, easy HD playback, and ready to edit the next day not worth $$$ to anyone? If I tell a producer that I can save them $1,500 a day over shooting film without quality loss, and provide a fast work flow, why wouldn't they jump on that?

I think the opinion differences are because there are two groups of people buying the RED. There are people like me who run a video production company and will be shooting for corp. clients and commercials. Then, there is the indy filmmakers who see the RED as a tool to get Hollywood quality on a tiny budget. I hate to say it, but the RED is only going to do so much for indy films. Bad scripts, bad lighting, bad acting, and bad directing is still gonna hurt many of those films. What it is going to do is help films like Napoleon Dynamite who have a 200,000-400,000 budget.

I would also be interested to know how much it's going to be used for filmmaking. I am betting that it will have greater use as a camera for commercials, music videos, and corporate videos. That's how I am planning on using it. Of course, I have a $1-2 mil feature in the pipeline for about 2-3 years down the road. David, you wanna come shoot it? It's in the jungles of Peru!:)

Matthew

[Russ McDonald]

Weird emotional thread...

well adobeone, if demanding a low price for good equipment makes you a nancy, then I guess you should complain to jannard, since he then would qualify as the mother of all nancies...

Rental price has a natural limit, and that is the price of purchasing the equipment. And I think it will be hard to demand more than 500$ a day for something that cost 20.000$ sure there will be all the additional equipment and personel but that is not what the poll was aiming at...

Your not a Nancy if you demand a Low price for good equipment, your a Nancy to give a low price for great equipment.

Bottom line, If Jim had put it out at twice the price I'd of paid it. Jim set his price, and he has to live with it. I Don't know the guy, personally, but I bet when he saw the lines at NAB, he said to himself I should have charge more. Remember he sold plastic sunglasses for 80.00+ a pair.

parity |?parit?| noun
1 the state or condition of being equal, esp. regarding status or pay : parity of incomes between rural workers and those in industrial occupations. • the value of one currency in terms of another at an established exchange rate.

Parity in the market place isn't, " My gear cost less, so I'm going to charge Less" Parity in this case, is what does the customer have to pay in the market place, to have parity to what I have to offer....

If you guys want to cut a deal get something in return, a deferment, or a pice of the pie. If there is a project, or a talented person you want to give a leg up. Great this industry was built on that kind of isolated altruism.

You guys have a pretty good Idea of the kind of guy I am. If I called you and you new it was me, would you rent it to me at 1%. Hell no!!!!

You be, " Take that you soul sucking, black hearted bastard! " I'm just one of very long line of soul sucking bastards, we actually have a club. So remember that when you pick up the phone, it could be me.

In the Interest of saving time, those of you willing to give me 1% for what I would consider a basic package, about 40,000 that has come out of your hard earned bank accounts. Please PM with your info.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

if your a dp or camera op buying red one.. it doesnt matter if the story sucks.. the story can be soo horrible it burns your brain to watch..
but if the picture looks like an amazing Jubilee of colors and contrast and the lighting is sweet ass.. then word up.. you did your job..

so yah.. if your a story writter or director who wants gloss but sucks at storytelling.. then this camera wont be a fastpass to an oscar anytime soon.
But if you love shooting pictures and making things look good.. this is an extreamly usefull tool that willl indeed boost your output.

[Russ McDonald]

Weird emotional thread...

well adobeone, if demanding a low price for good equipment makes you a nancy, then I guess you should complain to jannard, since he then would qualify as the mother of all nancies...

Rental price has a natural limit, and that is the price of purchasing the equipment. And I think it will be hard to demand more than 500$ a day for something that cost 20.000$ sure there will be all the additional equipment and personel but that is not what the poll was aiming at...

In fairness to ZzzZzz, he is correct about what poll was about.

But the thread has become way more than that, I've taken away allot more than I thought I would. It has become a clear and frank discussion. Of the realities of world wide production. Feature films professional, ENG and EFP warriors, and the beautiful dreamers who just need that one break. To show us all, they were worth it.

I watched from the beginning 6 days 212 posts 8,415 view. I'm new to this form of discussion, that seems allot for this small of a group, over that short of time.

The longer this thread gets the more the poll changes. The changes reflect the growing understanding of value verses price. The realization that it's not just a pice of gear, but a whole new system of film making, that will change our business forever. That the 1's and 0's held inside the drives, or more than just data. They are the investment, the time, hopes and a life time of dreams, of those we will service.

We have focused the realities and the burdens of the responsibility expressed in the proceeding paragraph. In so doing we have all become sharper, and for the lack of a better word tempered. Ready to change our little pice of the world.

maybe it's time to close the thread, I don't know. I sure look forward to looking at it everyday.

[PaulClements]

I reckon the plausability of ownership plays a large roll in lowering the price of a Red package compared to any other digital cinema camera.

For the same reason that everyone here is purchasing a RedOne, that same thought will cross the mind of anyone looking to shoot a movie with it.

Why do people rent a viper or other for so much? Well if they break it on set they'll get another one supplied. If they bought one then they would be stuffed if they broke it. With the pricing structure of RedOne the producers won't mind sticking down payment on five of them for a two camera shoot. They have three spare and it's cost them the same as the viper package and they've got even more immediate access to backup or extra cameras.

I think a lot more production companies will begin owning their own RedOne's and this in turn will greatly lower the demand on rental.

If people charge excessive amounts for their RedOne camera this will only exacurbate the situation.

The savings in the cost of the camera must be past onto the client. If it isn't then the rental community will suffer.

It's not a question of quality, it's a question of economics.

[ZzzZZz...]

...kneel to the invisible hand

[Stephen Williams]

The savings in the cost of the camera must be past onto the client. If it isn't then the rental community will suffer.

It's not a question of quality, it's a question of economics.

Hi Paul,

Wise words IMHO.

Stephen

[Emmanuel Cambier]

A time for evrything brothers…

First there will be high demand and low supply, and we ought to make the best of it, and I don't mean overcharging like crazy.

Then ther will be much higher and immediate supply, combined with lower
demand, and rental price will settle.

I don't see what's so arguable about this…really.

Emmanuel

[Joe Aurili]

It is very simple supply and demand. At first, unless you got a reservation a long time ago, you can not buy a camera and use it right away for ANY price, unless you can find someone willing to sell their camera for a premium. Also at first, even rentals will be very limited. These factors will inflate rental prices sky high. When time passes, more rentals will be introduced into the market and rental prices will start to come down some. By the time you can buy a camera and have it delivered right away, rentals will drop in line with the camera's price, and you will be able to buy a used camera on eBay at a discount..

[Joe Aurili]

Emmanuel, you and me think alike ;)

[ZzzZZz...]

Your not a Nancy if you demand a Low price for good equipment, your a Nancy to give a low price for great equipment.

well if that´s what you meant, every owner of a red one is a nancy...:mail1:

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Emmanuel, you and me think alike ;)

Don't worry Jlaurili, we are not the onlyones.:red_bandana:

[Russ McDonald]

Just an up-date

Not one owner/operator has contacted me willing to give a 1% rental. I get PM'ed all day.

New thought

Are we going to separate the cost of the data management thing from the cost of the camera. Show up and tell the person that hired us, "Hey pal the data thing is your problem, I'm just the camera guy."

I can see if your doing a 1 or 2 day thing, but if it goes over that @ 4k, your talking TB's of data for a feature film.

Do you guys think they're separate from one another, and should be treated as such.

Having said that, do you think the guy who hired us would see it that way?

I would like to know what you think.

[Michael Brennan]

Wow don't use that rate card as a typical movie deal for mid and low budgets.

Those rates for some of the kit are well over the top!

For example a $18k return in a single month for the srw1/pci recorder that costs around $100k including flight case batteries ect. (which were extra on the quote)

Standard rate to mates for SRW1/PC1 in Europe is £350 (great deal). But lets take no deal £450 per day rate x four day week equals around US $12k
But you were being quoted 1.5x that...

Same with the Viper!


One thing you'll find with Viper and SRW1 kit is that there is not much of it around to rent.

Supply can quickly dry up if a couple of movies are shooting at the same time.

But offer them half those rates in the low season and they won't put hangup on you.

Alternatively rent it from Europe!


Mike Brennan

[Russ McDonald]

Mike,

If you have the time, what would you get the same package for in Europe.

[Michael Brennan]

Just an up-date

Not one owner/operator has contacted me on the 1% thing.

Rental Truths from European Perspective
To state the obvious, anyone who rents kit is in competition with everyone else who rents kit in their catchment.


Hence most companies in a particular region are adversly affected if a poorly run rental company over time, cuts prices to get volume of work and goes bankrupt leaving a continued expectation of low rates in its wake.


Owner operator tip, price the kit at what everyone else is pricing it at and mark up your labour, you're worth it, because rental facilities care more about "the bottom line" than "crossing the line".




Mike Brennan

[Curran Giddens]

Not one owner/operator has contacted me willing to give a 1% rental. I get PM'ed all day.


adobeone, you may have scared off some RED owners with your post at the beginning of this thread.


We at this stage don't really know what the true cost of the workflow is, data management, output, there's no spool of exposed negative or tape stock to cover your ass here. One bad drive and your screwed, as a Producer your camera is like 1/80th of my film's day cost. And if it screw's up! Guess who I'm coming after to pay for my re-shoot. If you can't pay for it I assure you, your camera is going home with me, and then-some.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Goin off that last quote..

If you buy Kodak film.. and your loader loads it backwards.. You cant go after him to pay for the cost.. Obviously he will get the boot.. But he is not responsible for the ruined shoot.

[Russ McDonald]

Guys...Guys.... You have to let that go. It was a hypothetical design to get you to think outside your comfort zone. Get you to think, not in the terms as Zakaree has stated above, 400 feet of film totaling 5 min. of footage.

But barring the responsibility, of entire films footage on an array under you direct control every day for most of the day. You can't have one without the other.

It doesn't matter if the guy you work for has insurance. Again it's his desire for litigation. So prudence would dictate that you cover your ass. You cover your ass with systems, procedures, and personnel. Which cost money, these expenses must be off set in the rates you charge.

Am I wrong about this stuff Zakaree?

What about you Curran, have you considered this stuff in your business model?

I'm not doing this so I can prove how smart I am. I know how smart I am.

I've learned so much from this site, my technical knowledge has grown in leaps and bounds. All I can contribute is knowledge of what's on the other side of the line.

[Russ McDonald]

God, I sounded like a hostile Nancy in that last post. I didn't intent to be sorry Guys...

I extent an E-hug of Fellowship.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

You guys crack me up.

I've decided to rent out my RED package for three hot meals per day and two Red Bulls. ;)

[PaulClements]

Are we going to separate the cost of the data management thing from the cost of the camera. Show up and tell the person that hired us, "Hey pal the data thing is your problem, I'm just the camera guy."

I foresee this as part of my remit as digital imaging technician. The hire of the camera and myself is one part of it. I will also provide equipment for backing up footage for the customer and offer a range of suitable methods for different budgets. I will cost up the equipment that is required for backup and advise the customer. Payment for such equipment will be made before the shoot begins and ownership of it will belong to the client. I will also check all equipment meets my own exacting standards before submitting it for field use.

So yes data management will be a seperate thing in terms of the cost of the equipment for me, the actual handling of it will included in the hire of equipment and myself as DIT.

[Mark L. Pederson]

It's actually very simple.

Projects with decent budgets, for the most part, shoot 35mm.

Here in New York, the commercial market is MOSTLY 35mm.

The RED CAMERA is the most HIGHLY ANTICIPATED, BUZZED AND COVETED PIECE OF CINEMA HARDWARE EVER!

So, UNTIL the SUPPLY meets the DEMAND - the "package price" for the providng the cameras AND the data management ("processing") simply needs to be the SAME as it would cost to do the project in 35mm - because you can make an "ease of workflow" arguement - in addition to speed of delivery.

I am willing to wager that I can "process" footage from the days shoot on my 17" powerbook faster than you can WRITE UP CAMERA REPORTS & PURCHASE ORDER, TRANSPORT TO LAB, PROCESS AND TELECINE, TRANSPORT TO EDIT ROOM OR PRODUCTION OFFICE, DIGITIZE, etc. etc.

Too many people are getting hung up on HD rates - Varicam, Viper, etc. - yeah VIPER is IMHO a GREAT HD camera - but it ain't 4K and it ain't shootin' to COMPACT FLASH CARDS - if you know what I'm sayin!!

Until Jim ships over 5-600 cameras - this is about 35mm prices. Period.

And yes, I mean the TOTAL COST of film stock, processing, loader, etc.

[Curran Giddens]

I plan to provide 4 different levels of service and to use the RED-RAM solid-state recording medium. The RED-RAM gets backed up to the RAID1 storage system. I'm not sure what other precautions could be taken.

Level 1 Rental (1%?): It must be a fully-insured production with my RED package included in the insurance at twice its cost until RED is readily available. I must be allowed on the production set so I can learn some new skills by watching some professionals in action. Maybe travel expenses and a place to stay would also have to be included.

Level 2 Rental: RED/View Factor tech. I will work with DIT to show how everything gets set up including the software for meta data, lens data, and MoCo data. I will also work with the camera op., AC, and DP to help in setting up the desired camera configurations, monitoring options, and remote follow focus controls/monitoring. At this rate I am willing to work with low-budget indies, commercials, etc..

Level 3 Rental: DIT/workflow manager for backing up footage on-set and dealing with technical and software issues related to RED, Redcine, Redcode + metadata, Cooke's iTech. lens data, and VFS Mirus MoCo and Impero remote FIZ data. I will provide instant RedQuick (Quicktime) files of any requested clips for review on-set. I will also provide a RAID1 backup system on the set to store all incoming footage. At the end of the day of shooting the footage will be transcoded via Redcine to any format requested and copied to storage media provided by the client. Depending on the amount of footage and the format requested, it may take up to 12? hours for delivery.

Level 4: art co-director (working with director/DP and camera op.) providing innovative ideas for working with the RED/MoCo rig. I will also help in setting up the post-production workflow including compositing of live action footage, background plates, and 3D elements using the MoCo/lens data. This package also includes the DIT/workflow manager Level 2 and 3 service.

[Russ McDonald]

Thanks Mark

They thought I was a soul sucking black hearted bastard, nice to know I am not alone, Hey Mark we have a support group that meets in D.C. Large white building big dome can't miss it.

He's write and he deserves every penny.

Side bar Mark I heard the color app in FCS2, was more show than go, could you PM me if you get a chance and let me know.

[PaulClements]

I understand where you are coming from Mark but I feel that exploiting the camera early on like this will only lead more productions to simply invest in their own rather than hiring in the future.

If a production company is spending 4 or 5 times the value of the camera renting it then one day they'll just say "forget it, lets just get our own, if we break em we'll just buy some new ones from Cali".

It seems there are more people here that are worried about others going too low. Personally I'm more worried about others going too high. If the industry looks at the rental of a red package as being out of sync with the cost of the equipment they will dump rental like a hot potato. Every production company worth their salt will simply buy one and whilst there might be a few renters who, during the initial period, cash in with over pricing, the net result will be to minimise the eventual value of rental. Bringing on those lower prices earlier and lower than necessary.

Lets not forget Mark, it's only about 6 months between you getting yours and people being able to buy direct from Red. Some productions might even wait that long, others, if they don't see any difference in rental price between Red and 35mm film will simply continue to use film, rather than risk on a format they aren't 100% can deliver what they require.

Revolution seems to be a common word used around RedOne, yet for some reason a lot seem stuck in the common way of overpricing rental. Why shouldn't the 'Revolution' spill over into that market as much as it will the owner market?

To overprice would be a wasted opportunity for owners of Red products to alter the landscape of rental and filmmaking in my opinion.

[Keith Nealy]

Paul, I think what Jim had in mind was a camera that everyone could afford. I doubt he cares what the rental market will do.

Remember, that comparing RED with 35mm -equipment aside - RED will save them considerable money on film, processsing, telecine, etc.

If comparing with other digital cameras like Viper or F900, look at the quality of image and features and output considerations.

Again, it's about VALUE not 1% of cost.

The 1% "standard" won't happen until the market shakes out and the dust settles. I think initially owner/ops who are DITs who can offer a good price and a bulletproof workflow who have organized a good backup plan will do very well and should be compensated accordingly.

Producers wil still reap tremensous benefits in savings of film costs, high quality images and increased flexibility and speed of workflow.

The rental price will settle as the market adjusts on it's own. I think if one is buying RED just for the rental market and not supplying DIT services they might have a rough time of it over the long haul.

RED is a camera designed to bring the power of moviemaking into the hands of more filmmakers than any camera ever made.

As far as rentals - everyone will have to create their own paradigm in their little sphere of influence. I don't think RED will fit into industry rental standards for quite a while.

[donatello b]

"Hey pal the data thing is your problem, I'm just the camera guy"

YES !! you got it ...
as DP i don't have time to do data - render to whatever .. they can hire somebody or perhaps post houses will fill the gap or they can have the editor take care of duping ??? the data management will be discussed in pre production and we'll come up with something but it will NOT be the DP doing it ( when i'm DP) ..
for 4k, once CF cards hit 16 gig they can BUY them and that is their MASTER ... for 2k, 4/8gig should provide a good amount of minutes and again they BUY the card and that is the master = no duping on set ...

[Mark L. Pederson]

I understand where you are coming from Mark but I feel that exploiting the camera early on like this will only lead more productions to simply invest in their own rather than hiring in the future.

If a production company is spending 4 or 5 times the value of the camera renting it then one day they'll just say "forget it, lets just get our own, if we break em we'll just buy some new ones from Cali".

It seems there are more people here that are worried about others going too low. Personally I'm more worried about others going too high. If the industry looks at the rental of a red package as being out of sync with the cost of the equipment they will dump rental like a hot potato. Every production company worth their salt will simply buy one and whilst there might be a few renters who, during the initial period, cash in with over pricing, the net result will be to minimise the eventual value of rental. Bringing on those lower prices earlier and lower than necessary.

Lets not forget Mark, it's only about 6 months between you getting yours and people being able to buy direct from Red. Some productions might even wait that long, others, if they don't see any difference in rental price between Red and 35mm film will simply continue to use film, rather than risk on a format they aren't 100% can deliver what they require.

Revolution seems to be a common word used around RedOne, yet for some reason a lot seem stuck in the common way of overpricing rental. Why shouldn't the 'Revolution' spill over into that market as much as it will the owner market?

To overprice would be a wasted opportunity for owners of Red products to alter the landscape of rental and filmmaking in my opinion.

Well Paul -

#1: what "overpriced" is - is subjective. what's your EXPERTISE worth? what's your TIME / OPPORTUNITY COST worth? there IS NOT YET a SINGLE 4K RED CAMERA for RENT on the martket - so ... how can you know what "overpriced" is?

#2: As for "exploiting the camera early on like this will only lead more productions to simply invest in their own rather than hiring in the future."

well, a far as I am concerned, that breaks down like this -

"exploiting the camera early on like this" - huh? what's the EXPLOITING PART? you mean to get the highest price the market will bear is "exploiting"? Or, do you mean charging more than YOU are comfortable with is exploiting?

I get a lot of calls from people who want to get their hands on #6 and #7, and more people call every day. Yeah, it's exciting. But I have not said yes, or even quoted a single potential client - mainly because I don't have the cameras yet, and I want to do some shooting with the Offhollywood staff & team - I am telling everybody that we do not have RATES - we bid on a project to project bases with the RED cameras, workflow and post - and we will NOT bid until we have shot with the cameras and can show the potential clients footage. Our footage.


as for "will only lead more productions to simply invest in their own rather than hiring in the future." -

Paul ... that IS the future.

[Shawn Nelson]

Everyone is talking so much about how great the rental market will be in the first 4 months.

Really?

Maybe in NY, LA and Austin. Here in Portland I'm concerned. I've heard way too many "pros" in the area take on strong "wait and see" attitudes. I'm worried I'll be high and dry in my rental efforts until a ton of cameras flood the market providing proof of reliability and a ready supply of backup cameras.

Any tips on how to encourage first adopter renters without lowering prices?

[Sean R.]

Shawn Nelson wrote:


Any tips on how to encourage first adopter renters without lowering prices?

"The proof is in the pudding"

This is where the debates come in to whether you will just be shooting footage with your RED One and handing CF cards to clients or are you going to be fully capable of delivering a project start to finish. I believe we'll find that most people will adapt to the camera operating portion of RED One farely easy, especially if they come from a film background versus only digital mediums. The real challenge for most will be understanding workflow and post operations and accessing the resources to pull it off efficiently. OffHollywood is very wise for stating that no prices will even be quoted until they have their own footage to exhibit. That process is going to take REDusers not only learning the camera but learning 4K inside and out/pros and cons/struggles and payoffs. I'm sure you will find a market for clients that will accept footage being "handed over" but the true work will be from pre to post. There are going to people shooting RED and there are going to be RED artists.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I can't imagine there is much of a film market at all in Portland, frankly, having lived there for my whole life I never noticed much of a film market. I guess there is some, it's a much bigger area for authors overall, though, lots of authors live in the Pacific Northwest in general.

On the other hand, there won't be much competition for you up in Portland, so that's good. Lower demand, lower supply.

Telepathy, I liked OffHollywood's idea, and I thought about that myself and we're planning to film a short when the camera(s) arrive, just for fun, it gives us something for the reel, should be fun, and is a great way to test the camera from pre-production through post-production since we'll manage it all. That way I can figure out how everything is going to work and what we might need to make it work better.

When you talk about a complete service from start to finish, though, what would be entailed when you mention post-production services? I mean so let's say I'm working with a client, they rent out the package, I (or someone) goes on set with knowledge of the camera and how it works, and we get the recording media they prefer to use, given options, now we have the footage, are you saying that we'd provide editing services, too, or merely be able to hand over footage that is properly logged and captured, for instance, or what would be the process there? Because if you were going to set up a small post operation alongside a RED rental business, that definitely is a bit bigger operation. Would producers want to work that way, or would they have trusted editors they want to use?

[Ken K]

Everyone is talking so much about how great the rental market will be in the first 4 months.

Really?

Maybe in NY, LA and Austin. Here in Portland I'm concerned. I've heard way too many "pros" in the area take on strong "wait and see" attitudes. I'm worried I'll be high and dry in my rental efforts until a ton of cameras flood the market providing proof of reliability and a ready supply of backup cameras.

Any tips on how to encourage first adopter renters without lowering prices?

Along the lines of Telepathy's comment, maybe those of us in smaller markets such as Portland could chip in and hold a screening for the filmmaker community. We could show some short films we've done with the Red and maybe get permission to show Crossing the Line as well.

Here in Portland, we could get a few of us to split the cost of renting the digital theater (Christie 2k projector) at Bridgeport or Cinetopia and show off our digital goods. Since it is a closeknit and smaller market, a couple months advanced notice and we could probably get a really good turnout.

I think once people see how amazing the footage looks, they'll be more likely to adopt the Red. That, and it's just so much cheaper than film but with similar/better quality.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I've been to Bridgeport once, didn't go to the digital theater, or know they had one, I thought Oregon had no digital screens. So that's cool to learn. What I would like to know, though, is whether that Christie projector actually looks good. It better not be the same type of thing Christie passes off as a digital projector in every other auditorium, you know where they show pre-movie ads and trailers and behind-the-scenes stuff? I mean Regal does that at all of their theaters. The quality is TERRIBLE, I mean if I was just exposed to that and told "here's what digital looks like" I would say burn it, stick with film, because it's that bad.

Maybe if your eyesight is really awful then it could look ok but I have 20/12 vision (after Lasik surgery) and I can see every pixel on that screen, it really bothers me, it looks just dreadful. I'm assuming the 2K projector is much more impressive, though, because when I saw Revenge of the Sith in a digital theater it was amazing, clear, pristine, I loved that experience. So hopefully more like that and less like, well, Christie's lousy low end digital projectors.

[Stephen Williams]

You guys crack me up.

I've decided to rent out my RED package for three hot meals per day and two Red Bulls. ;)

Hi Jonathan,

Many new owners will do that just to get on set, that's nothing new.

Stephen

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

haha, I'm not sure it would come to that. To me that's pretty absurd. I mean an $85K package, I don't care how much experience I have, that isn't going out for free. If it were to go out for free it'd be with a friend and I'd negotiate a cut of the profits or some alternative payment, for instance. What use would there be to be on a set if it's so unprofessional they are looking for free equipment? haha, no thanks.

Being on a set is not a big deal. It may be a big deal to people who have never been on one before, but for the most part it's incredibly boring if you're not in charge of something significant (just watching, for instance, is boring, but even being a grip is exciting because you're working). I think a lot of people have no clue how boring movie-making can be if you're just watching. When I've watched someone else's production, I was bored to tears. When I'm in charge of a production, I'm stressed, excited, and it seems really challenging and sometimes fun, because everything seems to be a race against time. Yet when I was watching it seemed like everything took forever and was actually boring.

There are better ways to be on set than buying many tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment. I'd figure if a production can't afford to pay for the camera equipment I own, then any of my productions are more professional than what they are doing so I'd have no use for them. Just my opinion.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Hi Jonathan,

Many new owners will do that just to get on set, that's nothing new.

Stephen

Oh Stephen… you're one hell of a cheer leader ya know.:huh:

Emmanuel

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Stephen reminds me a bit of Oscar the Grouch. ;) I loved Sesame Street, he was a great character, hehe.

[Ken K]

I've been to Bridgeport once, didn't go to the digital theater, or know they had one, I thought Oregon had no digital screens. So that's cool to learn. What I would like to know, though, is whether that Christie projector actually looks good. It better not be the same type of thing Christie passes off as a digital projector in every other auditorium, you know where they show pre-movie ads and trailers and behind-the-scenes stuff? I mean Regal does that at all of their theaters. The quality is TERRIBLE, I mean if I was just exposed to that and told "here's what digital looks like" I would say burn it, stick with film, because it's that bad.

Maybe if your eyesight is really awful then it could look ok but I have 20/12 vision (after Lasik surgery) and I can see every pixel on that screen, it really bothers me, it looks just dreadful. I'm assuming the 2K projector is much more impressive, though, because when I saw Revenge of the Sith in a digital theater it was amazing, clear, pristine, I loved that experience. So hopefully more like that and less like, well, Christie's lousy low end digital projectors.

Nah, the 2k projectors they use at Cinetopia (in Vancouver) and Bridgeport both look great. They're definitely not those ones they use to show pre-movie ads, where each pixel is the size of your fist. Yeah, those things suck. Anyway, Oregon's slowly gaining digital theaters... apparently we have 3-4 now, but the other two are in Corvallis and Springfield. Bridgeport only has one 2k projector, though. I think they got it just before 300 came out. Vancouver has Cinetopia (with 7 Christie 2k projectors) and Cascade 16.

[Stephen Williams]

haha, I'm not sure it would come to that. To me that's pretty absurd. I mean an $85K package, I don't care how much experience I have, that isn't going out for free. .

Hi Jonathan,

Spending a day with a great DOP on set, watching him light, is worth one hell of a lot IMHO. Last year I was a guest on Geoff Boyle's set while he was shooting Mutant Chronicles using a Viper. The knowledge I took away from just 5 hours was invaluable.

I am sorry that you find film sets boring.

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

Oh Stephen… you're one hell of a cheer leader ya know.:huh:

Emmanuel

Hi Emmanual,

How many days do you have solid bookings for so far? Have any contracts been signed?

I know a still's photographer who charges $50,000 a day, his assistants all work free, they do that so they can put the job on their resume. Sometimes working for free on a High Profile campaign, will do more for your career than worrying how much you can rent a camera for 1 day for.

Stephen