Image stabilization

[beatniq]

I tried searching, but found little discussion on this topic here or on DVXUser.com

Any idea if RED will have this feature?

[Stephen Williams]

I tried searching, but found little discussion on this topic here or on DVXUser.com

Any idea if RED will have this feature?

Hi,

I think that is something you can do in post far better than in camera.

Stephen

[beatniq]

Hi,

I think that is something you can do in post far better than in camera.

Stephen

I read a little about that and I've not heard good things - a lot about blurriness and other issues when done in post.

Do you know if FCP can do this? I've played with the "Image Stabilizer" filter in FCP but it never seemed to work very well, though I must admit I haven't done much more than just fiddle with it.

[Steve Freebairn]

Some lenses have Image stabilization built in, but most likely your best solution would be to use After Effects (shake, combustion) to stabilize a shot.

[Stephen Williams]

I read a little about that and I've not heard good things - a lot about blurriness and other issues when done in post.

Do you know if FCP can do this? I've played with the "Image Stabilizer" filter in FCP but it never seemed to work very well, though I must admit I haven't done much more than just fiddle with it.

Hi,

Not sure about FCP but after effects and any effects programme will have tracking software. You will always loose resoloution, however starting with a 4k image will help.

Stephen

[beatniq]

Some lenses have Image stabilization built in, but most likely your best solution would be to use After Effects (shake, combustion) to stabilize a shot.

Wow. That is going to be a difficult workflow for ENG/EFP.

[Stephen Williams]

Wow. That is going to be a difficult workflow for ENG/EFP.

Hi,

FWIW very few broadcast lenses have stabalization, the ones that do are very expensive. I don't know of any broadcast cameras that have such a feature.

Stephen

[Mike Devlin]

Stabilization is kind of a broad topic.

Lens: The long ENG lenses (we have a Fujinon HA42X13.5) have stabilization, but it really is for wind shake and such only. High frequency small amplitude stuff.

Post: We have had excellent results in Avid Media Composer HD with motion tracking and stabilization (stabilize or smooth). Sometime you have to slightly crop or zoom the picture afterwards, but it can make a huge difference with little or no loss of rez depending on the shot. It helps if you shoot at a higher frame rate like 60P (less delta t between samples for the software) with a fast shutter (even if you then have to go back in and add motion blur in post to reduce strobing at 24P). We often shoot 60P with a 24P timecode to allow us to do this in post (overcranking 2.5 times)

GyroStabilization: The bigger problem is shooting from a boat or helicopter or other vehicle where you are dealing with both low frequency (boat rolling in moderate seas) and high frequency motion (boat vibrating as you work the engines/props to maneuver while holding the shot). There are some great gyrostabilization solutions out there. MakoHead and Cineflex are the two I am familiar with and both are excellent in different ways.

Of course there are Steadicam type rigs, but I have never used them and have no experience.

[Martin Drew]

Hi Beatniq

Trying to avoid shake on a small camcorder is very tricky, hence the ubiquitous built in stabilisation. You will find that you get a lot less shake with a large pro or broadcast camera, just because of the greater mass involved. It is far easier to move the camera smoothly when it has a bit if weight.

Martin

[beatniq]

Hi Beatniq

Trying to avoid shake on a small camcorder is very tricky, hence the ubiquitous built in stabilisation. You will find that you get a lot less shake with a large pro or broadcast camera, just because of the greater mass involved. It is far easier to move the camera smoothly when it has a bit if weight.

Martin

That is reassuring. Though the RED is actually pretty lightweight, I'm sure with all of the accessories I'll be putting on it, it will gain some much needed mass.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Holding RED as a shoulder-mounted rig should minimize most stability issues like the shakes and twitches you get with smaller camcorders. Kinda like others have said, the mass helps and most other broadcast cameras don't have much for stabilizing features. Some jumps and jitters can be corrected in post, but you usually have to crop in on the frame and it's hard to correct for those really quick motions that blur.

Anyway, I think that from an ENG/EFP perspective, the manual focus (incredibly innovative focus assist feature not withstanding), is going to be your biggest obstacle for run-n-gun situations. But if you can pull it off, you should have some of the finest looking news footage out there. :)

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Image stabilisation works well for still photography, it works well for filmed helikopter shots (Giromounts, Westcam) but in most of the cases, it would be better to go on a dolly, crane, tripod... exept you shoot action stuff or use it as a stylistic element. For stabilising FCP is not the right tool, I use After Effects, Combustion or Digital Fusion. But: "Let's fix it in post!", is in most of the cases rubbish, time consuming.

[Nick Shaw]

The FCP image stabiliser is pretty much useless. Shake is very good. You have the standard stabilize node which uses trackers, and also the SmoothCam node which uses optical flow analysis. The latter gives very good results, but is pretty slow at rendering even at SD. Alow for a lot of rendering time at 4k!

Nick

[Joshua Provost]

Yeh, stabilization is not usually an issue for many uses of the camera. For narrative production, you will be on a tripod, on a dolly or jib, on a steadicam, or have a shoulder mount of some sort. It's all very smooth and the operators are experiences and have steady hands to boot. It's very different than your standard handheld handicam that requires some for of OIS to look decent.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Even with all the additional resolution, if you stabilize anything more than rotational drift or very very minor changes you're going get hideous results.

Also don't shoot with anything longter than 1/60sec shutter. Anything more and the motion blur becomes apparent inside of the stabilization.

Parallax will kill the best stabilization algorithms. Sure your forground is nice and steady but why is the Golden Gate Bridge floating around?

[Brook Willard]

I don't mean this to sound condescending, it's just a question: Beatniq, have you ever operated a significant cine camera handheld?

[this really sounds like I'm being a jerk; I promise that I'm not]

[Steve Gibby]

I don't mean this to sound condescending, it's just a question: Beatniq, have you ever operated a significant cine camera handheld?

[this really sounds like I'm being a jerk; I promise that I'm not]

I don't mean this to sound condescending, it's just a question: Brook, what were you thinking?

(It does sound like you were being a jerk, but since we know you're not, you're excused!)

LOL...

[WesG]

I've used the attachable Canon stabilisers on B4 HD Canon lenses on XDCAM HD cameras and they are great.

This is a great addition when doing any helicopter of boat shooting, however I don't think these attachable stabilsers will be able to mount on 35mill lenses!??!?!

For those of you considering RED for ENG work at 4K and need a way to stabilise RED with the RED zoom, what will you do???
What's a way to stabilise for handheld/shoulder run and gun style work???

Gyros??

[beatniq]

I don't mean this to sound condescending, it's just a question: Beatniq, have you ever operated a significant cine camera handheld?

[this really sounds like I'm being a jerk; I promise that I'm not]

No I haven't. Was it that obvious? :)

[Brook Willard]

Heh, nah, that's not the way I meant it. I was just trying to figure out how to interpret the question:

Option 1: You thought that a full-sized cine camera would succumb to the same kind of vibration that a handy-cam would.

Option 2: You were familiar with the way a cine camera handles on one's shoulder but you were looking for something beyond that.

Option 1 has been covered, I was trying to come up with some cool solution for option 2. :D

And Gibby... :laugh: :)

[Steve Gibby]

Nalu,

Short of using a stabilization system, smooth hand held and shoulder held use of cameras has a lot to do with balancing the rig. If the center of balance of the rig is directly over your shoulder top, and you use a solid 3-point hold (shoulder, right hand on lens servo grip, left hand on lens barrel or follow focus), you can stabilize shoulder held shots significantly. You’re almost always using a viewfinder (with left eye open to see obstacles), but occasionally using an LCD. Some shoulder braces can be adjusted forward and backward to compensate for an imbalance in the centerpoint of balance for the rig. This is especially helpful when you change out lenses regularly, and they are of different weights. It Looks like the RED Rail shoulder brace will have forward/backward adjustment capability, so that will help in balancing the rig.

For hand held high, low, and away from your body, the starting point is to grab the camera at it's center of balance. Keep your elbow bent to take up shock as you move (same as knees when skiing or surfing). Practice slow, smooth peds, pans dollies, walking, and tracking hand held. You’re always using an LCD for this, with a shade screen when stray light is a problem. It’s also usually in brighter light, so aperture is stopped down, DOF is then deeper, and focus is easier.

I think good shoulder held and hand held shooting starts with physical fitness. Your body is the tripod. The better condition you're in, and the more you're used to body motions, the better chance you have to get smooth camera movements. When people watch me doing shoulder and hand held camera work for action sports and adventure travel, I often get comments from them like: "It looked like you were doing Tai Chi". In essence it is like doing Tai Chi - but while suspending an object that sometimes weighs as much as 30 pounds! If you're in good condition, and practice camera movements, you'll find that you only need a stabilization unit on the most demanding of shot sequences.

Throughout my career I've done a ton of hand held and shoulder held work for various networks (ESPN, Fox Sports, OLN, NBC - 12 networks in all) - usually with big, heavy rigs, but occasionally with mid-sized rigs.

When I shoot out of planes and copters it is usually with a gyro system or stabilized lens, and a solid shoulder/waist harness.

[WesG]

great post Gibby and couldn't agree more - a balanced rig and your own strength/fitness are particularly important - I can certainly tell when editing what shots were taken at the end of a long day!!

I'd be particularly interested in what gyro systems and/or image stabiliser you think will work well with RED and the RED zoom for shooting 4K from choppers.
I know it's ideal to have a fix wescam or maohead kind of system, but I'm starting to get some work shooting yacht racing from the air and boats, where you just grab your camera and hang out of the chopper for an hour or two.
The Canon attachment stabiliser has been great but only attaches to specific lenses.

What do you seen as some of the possible solutions??
(that don't cost more that a RED setup :eek: )

thanks

[Steve Gibby]

I have some input on that, but I'm headed out of my office for the rest of the evening (late for a meeting). I'll post some ideas on that tomorrow...

Aloha braddah!

[WesG]

thanks bra!!!!!


:D
(can't find the shaka icon??)

[tj williams]

Gibby great post on hand held.

One advantage of the RED camera is the ability to change lengths. On a windy day with a steadi. One of the things to do is move the monitor and batts as far out from the post as you can and still keep dynamic balance. Another is to attach. Antlers which are long rods with weights on the end attached usually to the top of the camera, sticking out sideways. another is to lengthen the post. all these have in common they move the center of mass away from the gymbal (the main support)

Now most cameras are just the length they are and give the stability thru inertia for that length. Longer cameras are more stabile than shorter(given you can balance the shoulder pad) same as the Steadi Sled above!

Now the RED Camera will allow you to use the RED rail to elongate the camera. This is going to be seriously cool for hand held as it will allow you to adjust the stability gained from mass, away from the support point. ie lenses matte boxes at one end and moving batts/diskarray back at the other.

[Steve Gibby]

I'd be particularly interested in what gyro systems and/or image stabiliser you think will work well with RED and the RED zoom for shooting 4K from choppers.
I know it's ideal to have a fix wescam or maohead kind of system, but I'm starting to get some work shooting yacht racing from the air and boats, where you just grab your camera and hang out of the chopper for an hour or two.
The Canon attachment stabiliser has been great but only attaches to specific lenses.

What do you seen as some of the possible solutions??
(that don't cost more that a RED setup :eek: )

thanks

When I was the combination director/cinematographer for the ESPN series Hawaiian Sports Adventure in 1996 and 1997 (20 programs), I shot everything you could imagine in the islands – on land, in the water, and in the air. Specifically aerials, I shot repeatedly on all the islands (except Niihau) via helicopter. I’d always looked for specific models of copter that had large, removable doors, and solid skids to stand on. At the time I was using a Betacam (about 24 pounds). We would put me in a helmet with voice-activated intercom to the pilot, with my assistant in the front seat also on helmet/intercom. With the door removed, we would rig a combo waist/shoulder harness for me. I’d wear nice sticky sole shoes to grip the skid. When shooting, I’d be using the camera shoulder held, with a good wide-angle lens (with 2x). If the air was relatively smooth, I could often get by without any gyro stabilization unit at all. I learned how to get as smooth a shot as possible without a gyro – pure shoulder held. We’d shoot aerials of surfers dropping into huge waves, fly right along the edge of the pali, skim the waves along the coast, shoot side-by aerials of hang gliders, and cover outrigger races and triathlon competitions from the side and above while crabbing along sideways. Fun stuff! I also shot from a helicopter several times for sailboarding races in the Caribbean, and snowboarding on the mainland.

The best aerial shots possible are with a Wescam – but that is a $1 million piece of equipment (not accessible for the budget of most productions). An affordable gyro option that is available to almost everyone is to buy or rent on a per project basis, is a gyro stabilization unit like those made by Kenyon Labs. They’re small units that are effective. I think a Kenyon Gyro would work real well with a RED One camera system. Hopefully there are Kenyon Gyro units for rent in Honolulu. If not, you may want to purchase your own if you’ll use one a lot…

Here’s some links for some info:

Good overview of gyro-stabilization units: http://www.camerasystems.com/gyrostabilization.htm

Kenyon Labs Gyros: http://www.ken-lab.com/stabilizers.html

Aloha Bra! (Jarred, we need a shaka emoticon!!)

[Michael Schrengohst]

(edited) We’d shoot aerials of surfers dropping into huge waves, fly right along the edge of the pali, skim the waves along the coast, shoot side-by aerials of hang gliders, and cover outrigger races and triathlon competitions from the side and above while crabbing along sideways. Fun stuff! I also shot from a helicopter several times for sailboarding races in the Caribbean, and snowboarding on the mainland.


Sounds like you are going to be busy doing it all over again with the RED.
We are going to be transferring some 16MM to HD using a Cintel URSA Y-Front 4:4:4 Component Digital Telecine. Sports shooter, all big wave stuff.
This same shooter will be using our RED when we get it...
Now comparing the transferred 16MM to RED will be very interesting!

[Steve Gibby]

Very cool...PM me and let's stay in touch.

[ChristopherKenworthy]

I've just tried out Motion 3, and to my great surprise the Image Stabilization works extremely well. I have a few shots, from an HDV camera, where we simulated a dolly by walking forwards with a handheld camera. As you can imagine, there was that subtle wobble. Not a handheld look, as such, but certainly some movement. In a matter of seconds, Motion 3 got rid of that, and made these shots look like perfectly smooth dolly shots. Better than any other software I've tried, for this sort of thing. Of course, the frame has to be zoomed and rotated for this to work well, which means the HDV comes out a bit worse for wear. But if you have a beautiful 4K shot, with a bit too much wobble, I bet Motion 3 will clear it out without any hassle, still allowing a 2K finish after all the zooming and cropping.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Hi,

Not sure about FCP but after effects and any effects programme will have tracking software. You will always loose resoloution, however starting with a 4k image will help.

Stephen

Yeah you can do this in Motion well, and After Effects does it really well, too. It won't lose you much resolution usually, depending on how shaky things were, but we had some shaky hand-held shots in the project we shot before this last one and we were able to eliminate the shakiness entirely without losing more than about 5% of the quality, which was totally acceptable. It wasn't even noticeable.

[KETCH ROSSi]

Most Image stabilizzation is done in each individual lens as Canon those it with some of the L series lenses, it is a great feuture but not allways, the benefitt of image stabilizzation allways comes at the price of loss of sharpeness.

Ciao

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

[I Bloom]

If you get into a situation where you know you will need to use image stabilization in post, like a car mount, then it might be preferable to shoot straight raw off the optical port. You'll have extra pixels on the edges that can be used to stabilize the image without forcing you to enlarge it slightly. Another trick when you are running into these problems is to tighten up the shutter speed. Programs that stabilize the image in post (such as the SmoothCam node in Shake) can do a very good job of removing shake from the image, but they can't remove motion blur caused by the shake. A tight shutter can eleviate that problem.

That's my two cents.

IBloom

[Brook Willard]

Whew, here's a blast from the past.

[Desert Rune]

Final Cut Pro 6's Smoothcam filter is pretty phenomenal. The way Apple implemented that feature inside FCP is genius and it's very, very easy to use. I love it!

I would agree on lens stabilization before it reaches the CMOS sensor. Stabilizing in post should be avoided at all cost.

[Keith Nealy]

I second that on the shaka.

_ooo/ \ooo/ \ooo_

Welcome back Gibby, I've been missing your pearls of wisdom recently.

Aloha,

Keith