Kino Flo Purchase; Diva-Lite 400 or 4-Bank Selects?

[Rick Darge]

I'm about to buy my first pair of Kino-flos.

It's a toss up between the 4-bank VE Select Gaffer's kit which comes with 2 four-foot four-bank Kinos -OR- the Diva-Lite 400 Kit.

I like the idea of the Divas because they come with everything you need, hardcase, ballasts built in, stands.

But I also like the 4-banks because they're so damn sturdy and versatile, plus, if I bought the 4 bank gaffer kit, I would be forced to buy some C-stands, whereas if I get the Divalites, I probably would hold off on that for a while.


Can't decide..

R

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

By the 4 bank, the quality of light is better. The tubes for the DIVA suck IMHO.
Disclaimer I have used a DIVA many timed & regret recommending it's purchase 6 years ago to a client.

Stephen

[Rick Darge]

Hey Stephen

Thanks, but, how is the quality of light better?

I just spoke to a Kino rep and basically it comes down to portability. Do you want to lug around a ballast or not? 4 Banks are great because they consistently maintain color temperature. If you are shooting with 300 of them and need to take them all down a stop, you don't have to worry about color shift ala the Divas..

I like how the Diva kit comes with everything though..

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

The Diva is more portable that's what attracted me to the light, no demo units were available at that time so I ordered 'blind'
The color output of the tubes is very poor, including the expensive 'kinoflo' tubes. The Tungsten are very pink 2900, no 3200 exists. They don't match tungsten, although tungsten often ends up 2900

The Dimmer is fairly useless as the color changes so much. IMHO 4 bank is a better bet.

Stephen


Hey Stephen

Thanks, but, how is the quality of light better?

I just spoke to a Kino rep and basically it comes down to portability. Do you want to lug around a ballast or not? 4 Banks are great because they consistently maintain color temperature. If you are shooting with 300 of them and need to take them all down a stop, you don't have to worry about color shift ala the Divas..

I like how the Diva kit comes with everything though..

[Alexander Nikishin]

Definitely the Select 4 bank.

If you're still interested in a Diva, I have one for sale in near-new condition.

[Clayton Harper]

Ok, I agree the tungsten bulbs suck on the diva 400 and that they are horrible when dimmed from a color perspective.

That being said, they are extremely convenient to set-up and use especially on small productions. I think the regular 4-bulbers have way more parts to lose and take longer to rig.

If you are doing ENG type stuff or even just small interiors they are pretty great and if you need to correct the color significantly they are easy to gel.

I think if these are the only lights you're gonna own for a while the Divas could be pretty useful.

[Brook Willard]

Go with the 4-bank, hands down.

[Chris Gearhart]

I'd have to agree. Get the 4 bank. But I don't mind the Diva for small shoots.

[Stephen Williams]

Definitely the Select 4 bank.

If you're still interested in a Diva, I have one for sale in near-new condition.

Hi Alexander,

That sums it up "for sale in near-new condition"

Stephen

[Poi Boy]

Has anyone used the nock off Flolight ?
Aloha
-A

[Albert Cheng]

I like my Diva, I've only ever used daylight tubes in them and they've worked fine for me. But yeah, i'd get a gaffer kit for sure, it's much more versatile and the quality of light is better due to the larger area.

[Rick Darge]

I think I may just get 1 4-foot 4-bank and 1 2-foot 2-bank.

I shot something this weekend, using those 2 lights and an ARRI 650 and everything was just peachy. Could always use more, but thats not a bad start.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

I'd like to hear more opinions. This really feels apples to oranges to me. Everyone has a difference of opinion. Kino-flo told me if you're doing anything film related, 4-bank all the way, Divas are more suited for video, due to color shifting..

I do like their size though..

[Stephen Williams]

I
Kino-flo told me if you're doing anything film related, 4-bank all the way, Divas are more suited for video, due to color shifting..

I do like their size though..

Hi,

I think Kinoflo are being very honest, for 1 man ENG or very small EFP (i'm learning) they do have a use.

The 2 / 4 banks can be used in pieces that can come in handy, the separate ballast & cabling does take 2 or 3 minutes to connect however the fixture is lighter and can be 'fixed' in some places more easily.

Stephen

[wshultz]

Has anyone used the nock off Flolight ?
Aloha
-A

I've been curious about Flolight as well. Anybody?

[Rick Darge]

I think I may get this,

http://www.filmtools.com/kiflotwoliin.html


Even though originally I was going to buy this,

http://www.filmtools.com/kiflogakiki.html

[Jim Arthurs]

Don't the Diva's take the Biax 55 tubes? Richard, you might want to try the lights (or the whole fixtures) from a fellow RedUser members site...

http://www.coollights.biz/cl5532-cool-lights-watt-3200k-high-biax-bulbs-p-34.html

Before I located this site, I would buy the 55's from GE's StudioBiax line.. part number F55BX. I find the Color temp to be accurate on these. Don't dim, just ND them to where you want...

[Matthew Rogers]

Don't the Diva's take the Biax 55 tubes? Richard, you might want to try the lights (or the whole fixtures) from a fellow RedUser members site...

http://www.coollights.biz/cl5532-cool-lights-watt-3200k-high-biax-bulbs-p-34.html

Before I located this site, I would buy the 55's from GE's StudioBiax line.. part number F55BX. I find the Color temp to be accurate on these. Don't dim, just ND them to where you want...

I would take a look at the coollights. There seem to be alot of people who have bought them and love em'. Richard is also releasing some Diva knockoffs which actually sound better designed than the Diva. Personally, I've only ever used the Diva's and it was for video. They worked find and the color temp was fine also. Hopefully in the next few months I will be able to buy some 'flos...and when I do, they will be the coollights flo's.


Matthew

[Brook Willard]

I've been curious about Flolight as well. Anybody?

I personally found myself fighting with them more than using them. It could be that I just wasn't willing to accept them for what they were - I wanted them to be a Kino and they just weren't. There were extra steps, extra weight, fewer rigging options and a less intuitive design. It's nice that they have onboard ballasts... but not nice enough for me. If I ask for a few 4-banks and somebody shows up with a Flolight, I'm going to laugh at them.

That's one man's opinion with one experience on one day. So...

[Jim Arthurs]

If I ask for a few 4-banks and somebody shows up with a Flolight, I'm going to laugh at them.

That's one man's opinion with one experience on one day. So...

I have a few diva-knockoffs from Fotodiox and love them... they are what they are, which are solid "light delivery units", and for that they do a great job. I got two of them six months ago for HALF the cost of the equiv. Mole Richardson unit. I wish I'd gotten two more before their price increase. They've saved my butt a number of times.

There are times and places where I make a stand on name brands, but in the area of ganging 4 55watt biax tubes together and applying high frequency current to the lot of them... well, that isn't one of those occasions...

[Brook Willard]

You know, you do make a good point. The quality of light is the same... it'll look the same onscreen and nobody will know the difference except for the folks who saved money. My perspective is from a day working as an electric with the units rather than working as DP.

[Jim Arthurs]

My perspective is from a day working as an electric with the units rather than working as DP.

Understood and agreed!

[Rick Darge]

So it's the same quality of light with the flolights compared to the kinos?

It was always my understanding that the reason why Kino was so pricey was because of their mojo and ability to remove any and all green spike within the light? Are we really just paying for the name and the R&D ?

[Stephen Williams]

So it's the same quality of light with the flolights compared to the kinos?

It was always my understanding that the reason why Kino was so pricey was because of their mojo and ability to remove any and all green spike within the light? Are we really just paying for the name and the R&D ?

Hi,

The 4 banks don't have the green spike, the Diva's do.

Stephen

[Rick Darge]

I was talking more flolight to Kino..

What makes a Kino a Kino? I hear all these DIY fluoros, but do they really hold up? I made a DIY light, and the light looked like sh*t

[Peter Richardson]

I agree that the quality of light the Divas put out is a disappointing. Having done a 'round the world trip (china, tibet, india, london, copenhagen, prague, etc.) with two Universal Diva 400's in a flight case, however, I can say that it is tough to beat their portability. And having the universal ballast (do the selects have this?) is huge when you are traveling internationally.

Peter

[Richard Andrewski]

Hi All,

My ears were burning so I thought I'd see what's going on over here. Been a while because I've been very busy here in China. Here's something else I've been up to. I hesitate to call this a clone because although the looks are somewhat similar there are vast improvements in this light over the Diva. Foremost improvement is weight. Diva is listed as 14lbs without tubes. My unit is 8lbs. with tubes! We've been listening to our current customers that say they want lighter lights. Here's a few other facts about the unit:

1). We're using a special corrugated polycarbonate plastic that's designed for use in building atriums and can withstand impacts of hail very well. Hit this stuff with a hammer and its possible to dent it a bit but the hammer bounces off. The version I'm using is black and opaque though (we'll save the transparent model for a special very limited edition later ;-). Anyway, its a hardshell case more akin to a studio light.

2). Edge protection extrusions around the plastic are aluminum and are tougher.

3). Ballasts are not in an obtrusive hump on the back but rather hidden behind the reflector.

4). No need for a heavy plate backing since the plastic is so tough and also since we are using a special extruded thick aluminum reflector that can't be bent easily so its the real skeleton of this unit.

5). We'll have a non-dimming version that's less expensive for those that think (like me) that dimming is not necessary and even undesirable because of color temp changes.

6). Aluminum end caps to protect the reflectors, sockets and tubes. The thing folds up into a nice neat package thats really at home tucked under your arm while walking with it.

7). A PVC extruded gasket that runs the length of the barndoor at the join between the fixture and barndoor. Not only keeps light from leaking out but also acts as a quick release grip for attachments like eggcrates in frames.


I'm enclosing some pictures here that I took of the 2nd revision fixture that I already posted on DVXUser a while back:

http://www.coollights.biz/images/productshots/pb1.jpg

http://www.coollights.biz/images/productshots/pb3.jpg

http://www.coollights.biz/images/productshots/pb5.jpg

The revision we're working on now has incorporated a few comments from people we've gotten opinions from. Including wider, overlapping barndoors and black endcaps rather than silver. There's a stand adapter being worked on right now that connects to the lolipop and snakes around to keep the light's center of gravity over the light stand. Just a bit more and we can lock off and start manufacturing. Also need to come up with a carrying case for it, a bulb carrying case, and a stand thats sturdy enough but also small enough to fit in the case with the light. Damn--seems like theres always one more thing to do before you can call it a real solution!

[Richard Andrewski]

I was talking more flolight to Kino..

What makes a Kino a Kino? I hear all these DIY fluoros, but do they really hold up? I made a DIY light, and the light looked like sh*t

When Kino first started out, there weren't that many solutions for running fluorescent lighting for film or t.v. productions. This was in the eighties. Electronic ballasts were rare and compact fluorescents were not in existence. So back then they really were adding value. Fast forward to today and there isn't so much to differentiate them anymore other than the distinctive cosmetic design of a diva or whatever. The ballasts aren't all that special anymore nor are the tubes. I'm still not totally sure about the decision to sell 2900K on their part--probably something related to film. You can get good ballasts on the open market that easily equal or surpass what Kino Flo does. 55 watt biax tubes can be found from most major tube manufacturers like G.E., Phillips, Sylvania, Osram and of course Cool Lights USA ;-) with our standard 3200K and 5600K tubes.

There simply isn't that much difference anymore underneath the covers so to speak. The technology behind fluorescent lighting is so mature now, its easy to find great components like ballasts and bulbs so there isn't so much to separate them now. In fact, reflectors, bulbs and ballasts are what make good light output from a flo fixture. You need all three to have a light that people rave about. Other features like usability, adaptation to grids or stands, and cosmetic differences of whatever fixture housing they are in are what's most immediately noticeable though from a user's perspective.

The decision to DIY or not was clearer before companies like Cool Lights came along and these things were tremendously expensive in the past and still are expensive if you need a name brand like a Kino for some reason. Now you've got something like a CL-455 4x55w light for $329 or our CL-455P non-dimming portable model pictured above for $425, how much money can you really save by doing it yourself and how much time would you spend on it versus time spent on making video/film?

[Richard Andrewski]

I personally found myself fighting with them more than using them. It could be that I just wasn't willing to accept them for what they were - I wanted them to be a Kino and they just weren't. There were extra steps, extra weight, fewer rigging options and a less intuitive design. It's nice that they have onboard ballasts... but not nice enough for me. If I ask for a few 4-banks and somebody shows up with a Flolight, I'm going to laugh at them.

That's one man's opinion with one experience on one day. So...

Ah, but this is the difference between a portable fixture and a studio model. The Diva is a portable model designed for location work. There aren't that many truly portable models out there right now. All the flolights models, our Cool Lights current ones, and most other manufacturers too, are studio models--made out of metal, heavier duty, more at home on a stand or grid in a studio than on the go. Even kino makes some studio models. We just realized our indy market was more on the go and we saw a gap out there in portable fixtures so we decided to help fill it with the plastic model. But I don't like the durability factor in the diva so I decided to make some needed improvements with harder plastic and other things to keep the weight down.

[Paolo Tinari]

how much money can you really save by doing it yourself and how much time would you spend on it versus time spent on making video/film?

In my experience, very little (money), verrry much (time)

[Richard Andrewski]

There are times and places where I make a stand on name brands, but in the area of ganging 4 55watt biax tubes together and applying high frequency current to the lot of them... well, that isn't one of those occasions...

I've been saying this for a long time. It's really not rocket science and I'm doing everything I can to demystify it...

[Jim Arthurs]

Thanks Richard, it's always more fun when you get into the mix, and I'm really looking forward to Oct. 15th for some reason, where I can see my HMI and small tungsten inventory increasing... almost as much as I'm looking forward to another date, Nov. 10th for us RED serial number 400 guys...

I really like how you've recessed the power switches on your unit so they won't get damaged... the two units I have leave these unprotected.

I can speak to the amount of time needed to DYI you're own, as I've got some reflectors, ballasts, and ABS laying around from my "good intentions" to put something together back in Dec... still haven't done it. Probably never will... time is valuable.

BTW, Richard, is that your 575 HMI PAR back in the distance of that first pic?

[Richard Andrewski]

Good eyes Jim. That's my pride and joy right now and I use it a lot myself. We've got a couple of noise issues to work out on it and then we're set. They don't bother me but some may not like the noise. Seems its really tough to get an ignitor for an electronic HR ballast that doesn't make any noise at all. Has to do with the higher frequency we drive the bulb at than normal. This of course, in an effort to not only make a brighter output but also avoid flicker at any frame rate or shutter speed as with our fluorescent fixtures. We'll get it. Just takes some patience. We rejected magnetic ballasts which were lower cost and more quiet but were super heavy at 45lbs and had flicker issues of course.

As I mentioned recently on DVXUser, it's a tougher proposition to make a DIY diva because of the edge protection extrusions and gooseneck pipe which work together to allow the barndoors to function in the unique way that they do and the lolipop too is hard-to-find. Not a big deal to get some coroplast and reflectors and ballasts and put those together.

Someone mentioned you can just use sheet metal folded over and yes that would work, but its not the same look for sure. It costs a bundle to have custom extrusions made and you have to buy a ton of material, but we're making the investments because we'll use them in some other projects later too.

Of course, the lolipop is really nice to have too. We found a couple here in China and I'm using the better of the two. Glad I didn't have to make that because its a cast aluminum and nylon part and we're talking really big money to make a die tool for injection molding aluminum and nylon pieces--plus the minimum order was 3000 pieces!