lighting

[Sven Seynaeve]

after all the arguments and discussions with my DOP i would like to clear some things out.

I've been doing almost everything myself in my entire life untill i could not do 2 things at the same time.(playing drums in a musicvideo and act as dop the same time i'm being shot and i'd like to have the responsibility at this particular moment depending on someone who's only occupying himself on the photography.

I'd like to come up with a budget to get some more musicvideos shot for my band around 50k.

The dop seems to be very moneyhungry and after some meetings he is still trying to convince me that he cannot tell me what he needs for different shoots
shooting is about 2 weeks for 4 videos.

as always he keeps me waiting untill the very last moment to decide and give me list of the equipment he needs, this he always seem to do, maby to be assured i could not hire anyone else i suppose on the very last moment.

He and 3 other guys were involved doing the scripts for this shoot,
(he has got some great ideas and is very driven, doesn't drink, doesn't smoke and is addicted to what he does. but his alterego( he's only 23years old and has already proven himself,) but he is always wining the budgets are to low.
and he's very restricted to have another point of view coming in.
Losing to much time IMHO with changing locations , going from one shot to another (mostly depending on replacing the dolly) and asking him if we wouldn' t be better of using a steady for this videos???? This gets me confused either i am missing something or he is to sure about himself???

If you would have the possibility to hire or purchase lighting equipment for a long time investment; what could be a possible combination of light equipment
that would let you be able of get all the shots as well in dificult and easier situations but with very a great variety of results and satisfying withoug the need to get more material in.

What we' d like to have is a do it all package working under very different needs.

do you have any idea what such a killer basic complete setup would charge for my purse.

[Bruce Allen]

1. Lighting depends on the project. You can only complain about him giving you last minute requests if you have given him everything he needs RE a script, storyboards, a pre-scout access to the location, shotlist, etc in advance.

2. Changing locations takes time. I was always taught to keep locations to 2 street addresses per day for serious stuff. If you kill yourself you can do more, of course.

RE: lighting equipment investments: yes, you can have a do-it all kit but it will cost a fortune.

Personally I am slowly building up my own lighting collection but I'd often expect to rent to supplement it.

It does sound like you are having communication problems with that DP though - I'd suggest you either resolve them or find a DP that you can work better with.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Charles Angus]

lighting:

you can do a surprising amount with a couple kinos (4'x4, 4'x2, 2'x4), and a few quartz lights (maybe 3 650 open faces, 4 200w fresnels). On really low-budget stuff I would recommend a package like that, with a little more money add a 1200w or 2500w PAR HMI. For intimate stuff, maybe a chimera or chimera lantern.

Grip to match, a couple 24x36 kits, C-stands, a butterfly if possible, and random bits of duvetyne.

Assuming you're not trying to light vista's, this will take you far, in my opinion.

[Bruce Allen]

Sven, I just read in your other post that you were thinking of investing "450k at least" in grip equipment.

Why don't you just put some of that money into a salary for a DP instead, if you are dissatisfied with your current one?

I agree with Angus' suggestions for a basic kit, by the way. Personally I have been on too many overheated film shoots so am going with HMIs & Kinos (and LED in the future when the price/performance matures).

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[svenostend]

Ik thought about spending getting and combining some arri budget kits together with some stronger hmis.

[Richard Andrewski]

Fluorescent and HMI all the way -- the kit of the future... ;-)

But seriously. If you're shooting Hi Def these days and you probably are, how many people really look that good in hard light in closeups on HD? How many sets that your using are so well detailed that you can't see tons of defects in them with hard light?

Soft lighting will be more important than ever and I chose fluorescent a long time ago because I couldn't see enough difference between a soft tungsten and a flo to justify using soft tungsten anymore except for the lack of heat on the set!

As for hardlight, HMI is definitely the way to go. Not what I would call a "cool light" because the fixture and bulb get very hot, but more like a "relatively cool light" because the actual light output of an HMI is very cool compared to a tungsten fixture. A 575w HMI fresnel and a 2400w tungsten fresnel are roughly the same equivalent. Stand about 4 or 5 feet away, in the beam of one, then the other. Now which one is cooler? 20 lumens per watt maximum for tungsten and between 85 and 100 lumens per watt for HMI. 50 to 80 lumens per watt with fluorescent. Given most household or normal circuits won't handle over a 1500w load very well, the HMI wins hands down there too for ease of finding power for it.

When you need a lot of hard light (especially daylight colored), it doesn't get much more efficient than an HMI.

[Chris Gearhart]

Two addresses can be done in a day, but boy you better have a lot of set monkeys and a finite number of shots per locale. And a good gaffer.

I agree with Angus on a basic lighting kit, but I'm with Bruce--just go rental and use the money for good crew. Or spend enough to begin a kit and rent and get a good crew.

How experienced is this DP? If he has done enough shoots he should be able to ballpark what he needs. But then again, if he has no money and no equipment, creativity takes a while to run through the pipeline to an eq list. If he is a good dp, trust him more and go with what he says. If he's not good, get one who is.

[Rocco Schult]

hi there,

I can't say much about lighting. My father is a pro and he'd disinherit me for what I claim now.
But the country where I and 11 other future RED owners are living is small, and so are the budgets for music videos. But what do yo do, when your competition is on A-rotation on MTV ?
Making music videos is always a passionate thing, maybe more than most others, especially here. You definitely don't do it for the money. Never.
Ok, except you shoot for a hotshot. So what, do you ?

You gotta cut the time. You have a day, maybe two.
I know people doing 60 shots a weekend. And yes, they did look good. Of course they were restricted in lighting. And yes, the 2 locations were very close to each other. But it was a good production manager and a veryvery passionate director.

if you're financially constricted, you need a good idea and an even better D.P. making the best out of what you can offer.
And the best of what you can rent.
Plan on a small equipment and improvise.

If your DP is not with you, he's probably the wrong person.
Hey, if he has done the scripts, he should have a good idea what he needs.

Good luck with your videos in any case and let us see the results!

[Stephen Williams]

hi there,

But the country where I and 11 other future RED owners are living is small,


Hi Rocky,

I found 2 more Red's this week in BS & ZH!, lowish no's.

Stephen

[Jack Wester]

Fluorescent and HMI all the way -- the kit of the future... ;-)
Given the items you're selling. What would your "indie-do-it-all" kit consist of. I don't own any lighting equipment and don't want to spend to much time running around gathering rental equipment.

/ Jack

[donatello b]

without speaking to you - give me a 10 ton and my list X of equipment and i'm pretty sure i can do anything at your locations and make do with any creative idea's ...
to narrow it down to a 5 ton truck i would like to hear about the location's and discuss your music video idea's ...
to get the package smaller then we need some meetings to go over the idea's and type shots you want plus see the locations ...

IMO if you have had some meetings , looked at locations , discussed shots and your DP is not giving you a list of some type - move on to another DP ...

PS- it doesn't matter what the budget - we all complain about the it ..
$1000 or 100K lighting budget - we always want more ...

[Richard Andrewski]

Given the items you're selling. What would your "indie-do-it-all" kit consist of. I don't own any lighting equipment and don't want to spend to much time running around gathering rental equipment.

/ Jack

Yes that's the point isn't it? It's kind of silly when the price of things is so high that it opens a rental market for them. The price of HMI and some fluorescent is still too high so we're working on that. In fact all ballast-oriented film and tv lighting has been too high.

But, to answer your question. It's hard to find a "do all kit" and someone would especially need to know what kind of work you're doing. Interviews, films, how-to's? Scale: usually small and sometimes large or usually always small or usually always large? Etc.

How often do you use soft lighting? How often do you use hard lighting? Do you find yourself wanting shadows or doing everything you can to eliminate them most of the time? For instance, if you're projecting cookies a lot, you need the appropriate instrument that makes good hard defined edges and a flo won't cut it--just too soft. On the other hand, if you're eliminating edges and shadows most of the time, and you're indoors and not fighting the sun a lot through windows and such, then flos are the answer. When you're fighting the sun either indoors or out, then its HMI or tungsten.

After all those questions are answered its then left to figure out the scale of what you're doing as to how many instruments you need.

Just some of the questions to be answered before you can get hooked up with a kit that makes the most sense for what you're doing.

[Bruce Allen]

Fluorescent and HMI all the way -- the kit of the future... ;-)

Richard, I stand corrected ;) I like Kinos but Fluorescents like yours are pretty tempting so I'd better start using a more generic term... so shall we call them "flo's" to separate them from the low-CRI, green-color-spiking brethren?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Richard Andrewski]

Richard, I stand corrected ;) I like Kinos but Fluorescents like yours are pretty tempting so I'd better start using a more generic term... so shall we call them "flo's" to separate them from the low-CRI, green-color-spiking brethren?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Personally I would prefer that ;-) you wouldn't ask for a coke when you wanted a doctor pepper right?

That's one more thing kino was very successful at! Since they were the first, they claim rights to huge marketing through just their name use confused with a generic term. The same type success that Coca Cola enjoys. Many times people say: "I used a kino on that shoot." Now, we're not really sure if they meant a real kino or a shop fixture they picked up in the electrical department of home depot or whatever. Even though, in years to come many will discover that other brands like Cool Lights are just as good or better there will still be this off-hand or spontaneous use of their name. Drives me nuts personally. And it's not just because they're a competitor.

As a video/film person, product designer and engineer I appreciate what they've done, but It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't still riding on past successes. They're just not innovating anything much now. When there's no more innovation, usually things are relegated to commodity status and the price goes down. It doesn't seem to happen though in this case because they're also hugely successful at maintaining their prices too thanks to the super-specialized smaller market of studio lighting and loyal studio (and some "indy") customers.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

...I give up. I'm going cheap and will be using limelight. :biggrin:

[Richard Andrewski]

Yeah, cheaper to be in front of the camera than behind it isn't it?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yeah, cheaper to be in front of the camera than behind it isn't it?

Actually I was referring to really old-school stage lighting. Grab a reflector, a chunk of calcium oxide (lime), something non-combustable that can withstand a lot of heat to hold that lime, and finally an intense heat source like a propane or oxygen/acetylene torch. Focus the heat source onto the chunk of lime, it will shine white-hot. There you have it, limelight... The term "in the limelight" is still a carry-over from long ago when those on stage were lit with overheated chunks of quick-lime.

[Richard Andrewski]

Actually I was referring to really old-school stage lighting. Grab a reflector, a chunk of calcium oxide (lime), something non-combustable that can withstand a lot of heat to hold that lime, and finally an intense heat source like a propane or oxygen/acetylene torch. Focus the heat source onto the chunk of lime, it will shine white-hot. There you have it, limelight... The term "in the limelight" is still a carry-over from long ago when those on stage were lit with overheated chunks of quick-lime.

Good one! Didn't know that and I love lighting history stuff too. Must have been one hell of a lot of heat and trouble to work with. Kind of the prehistoric precursor to carbon arc which was the precursor to HMI and Xenon. For anyone that's interested in the history of lighting of film lighting here are two good links:

http://www.einlightred.tue.nl/lightsources/history/light_history.pdf

http://www.mole.com/aboutus/history/smpte/1967-07p671.html

[chuck colburn]

I think the lime lights were at the foot of the stage.

[Adrian T.]

I think the lime lights were at the foot of the stage.

They were also used as follow spots.

[chuck colburn]

They were also used as follow spots.

That makes sense. I just could not imagine them overhead above the talent.

[Richard Andrewski]

Yeah, looks like follow spots actually were the biggest use which is what I was assuming when I said precursor to carbon arc and HMI. HMI's and Xenon are used in all modern follow spots now but I used a carbon arc before and it was really an unpleasant experience and I bet the limelight version was really unpleasant. Can you imagine the heat?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limelight

[Rick Darge]

I know they're over-priced for what they are and I know your coollights are probably the exact same, if not better, however, I'd rather spend the extra money on the Kino-Flos because they 'taste' better. Nothing at all against you and your company, but if I'm going to drop some change into someones hat, its going to be someone that has been around for a long time, still survivin, that being said, I am dropping quite a bit of change into a camera thats never been tested before.. go figure

[Jim Arthurs]

Richard, in the late '90's I sold a CD filled with time-lapse clouds that I self promoted and advertised. Later, as the stock footage craze heated up I got bought out by Adobe as part of their Image Club Graphics division, and they offered the product, Adobe branded, for 5X what I was selling the original for.

About that same time, a rather snobby local production company were after some time-lapse cloud shots. I offered to GIVE them my footage in the original packaging if they wanted it. The producer said, No, we've found something to buy we like MUCH better than what I was offering. You guessed it, they had just purchased my own footage as sold through Adobe with slick Adobe packaging. Heck, I even did the QT encoding for Adobe on those, so they were 100% my work.

Somehow this seemed relative as I was typing it at 5:30 in the morning...

[Adrian T.]

That's the power of brands...

[Richard Andrewski]

Yes indeed. The power of brands and brands are created by time and throwing lots of money out there in various forms. It doesn't happen overnight.

I don't particularly worry about sentiments like those expressed above. To the guy above--I'm not here to save the world or you. Just to please those that are looking for a solution like what I offer. Good luck with your purchase of established lighting and unestablished camera. By the way, Kino Flo was new once and had to put up with "logic" like this. It's just the price of entry. Even the best products can find critics and detractors.

I focus on my customers and those that would be, not on those that are looking for something else or feel the need to be critical. The markets are big enough for many to survive and thrive in. Besides, it's been a chance to offer solutions that are in use all around the world and this, only in our first 6 months of offering such products.

Many people make their buying decisions completely by emotions. It's the reason that Toyota has a Lexus division. Nissan and Honda have their versions too. There are some that just want to spend more on a car with a perceived higher value or snob appeal or whatever and these companies recognized this so they created divisions to help those all-too-willing individuals out of some of their extra money.

But the Toyota model still survives and even thrives because there are far more pragmatic individuals that don't see that many differences between the models when you get right down to it. Some are more concerned with where they're going in the car and what they're going to do there than what's going on in the car on the way. Some are just into the ride in the car.

Go figure--you can't please everyone. Just pick your market and service it and don't worry about what the rest are doing that's my motto...

[Rick Darge]

Richard,

Are you planning on emulating a 4-bank or a 2-bank select system like Kino does? I'd buy one of your lights if I had the same type of ballast and ability to turn off a lamp or two like the VE select systems do. Your site looks like its only selling 'Diva-lite' knockoffs right now though.

Curious..

[Richard Andrewski]

In my travels here, I've seen a lot of stuff and I have access to one like you're talking about from a factory here that does OEM for some others. The reason I didn't think to offer it is that its a whole other inventory of bulbs and fixtures I'd need to carry and I'm needing to be pretty focused with my capital right now.

The model I saw had a ballast that sits on the floor, used coroplast, had aluminum edge protection extrusions, a lolipop and looked really really good. In short, looked a heck of a lot like the model you're talking about.

If you like, I can check on the price and we can get you a couple and they can hitch a ride (so-to-speak) in the sea container with our other stuff in late september so you won't have to pay the special point-to-point shipping charges from China.

[Rick Darge]

Yea Richard

Get me a quote, that'd be awesome - What are your shipping costs by the way for your regular gear? Say if I were to order 2 of your 4 bank dimmers..

Thanks

[Richard Andrewski]

Yea Richard

Get me a quote, that'd be awesome - What are your shipping costs by the way for your regular gear? Say if I were to order 2 of your 4 bank dimmers..

Thanks

For US customers shipping happens from our warehouse in Houston and overwhelmingly most customers choose UPS ground but other faster and correspondingly expensive options are available in checkout. The average is 3 to 4 days to California and is usually in the $35 range for the box with the fixture and another box with the bulbs.

For those in other parts of the world, we're gearing up to send direct from China via DHL or UPS.

You can use our shopping cart into the first part of checkout to see the automated shipping quotes direct from UPS which is what we charge and all the various options available. You just need to sign in so it knows your zip code, etc. for the most accurate quote.

I'll check on that fixture and get back to you. Just to be sure, we're talking about the 2 or 4 bulb 4 foot fixtures that use the 40w "fat" tubes right? I believe they also have a 2 or 4 bulb 2 foot fixture that uses the 40w tubes also. They didn't have a diva clone at that factory though.

[Rick Darge]

yes, that's right, thanks