Changing Frame rate IN SHOT

[explosive]

Are there any plans to be able to change frame rate in shot?

That would be the neatest thing ever if we could shoot at 24 and dial it up to 40fps.

[Eryc Tramonn]

do a forum search on "ramping" or "speed ramping"

[Noah Kadner]

You'd find it kinda pointless as you'd get huge differences in exposure and it's also really difficult to time on set. 99% of ramps you see in the Matrix movies and pretty much any fight scene with Jason Statham are shot at the higher frame rate and then ramped in post-production where timing can be frame accurate. The trick is just having enough frames to start with at the high end so the slow-motion doesn't look jumpy. Throwing away frames to speed things up as needed looks fine.

Noah

[Jeff Kilgroe]

That said, in-camera ramps can still be useful. That's why the varicam and several film cameras provide the ability to ramp frame rate and the choice of whether or not to alter other functions along with it.

I've been under the impression that ramping will be possible, it has been mentioned. But It's not something that will be done by hand most of the time and will most likely be driven by an external trigger like VieFactor's upcoming Impero Pro controller. Or by a connected computer and/or MoCo system that can give the camera instructions.

[Craig Schober]

That said, in-camera ramps can still be useful. That's why the varicam and several film cameras provide the ability to ramp frame rate and the choice of whether or not to alter other functions along with it.

can someone give a good example of when in camera speed ramping is still useful for digital cinema like red? i can understand not wanting to run 35mm film at 120fps for dozens of takes only to speed it up in post anyway. but aside from cf storage limitations, why wouldn't everyone run red at maximum framerates and then speed up in post. at 2k, red drive would still be able to store about 2 hours at 120fps so i don't see the advantage to ramping in camera.

[I Bloom]

can someone give a good example of when in camera speed ramping is still useful for digital cinema like red? i can understand not wanting to run 35mm film at 120fps for dozens of takes only to speed it up in post anyway. but aside from cf storage limitations, why wouldn't everyone run red at maximum framerates and then speed up in post. at 2k, red drive would still be able to store about 2 hours at 120fps so i don't see the advantage to ramping in camera.

I don't know if the average audience member would notice or care, but there is a different look to the post method you are describing, versus in camera speed ramps. The difference is in the motion blur. Speeding from 48 fps to 24 in post for example, looks alright, but from 48 to 36 can be gross to my eyes. This problem is helped a bit by programs like Twixtor, but still never quite gets there for me.

There is a huge advantage to the post method in that the editor can pick the exact timing, and I know I'll be doing it, but I love real speed ramps and I can tell the difference.

IBloom

[Brad Hawkins]

IBloom is exactly right.

When you go the post route, say shooting 60fps, you end up with an effect similar to a 90 or 45 degree shutter angle when you speed that up to be "realtime" in the your Avid/FCP. When the shot is playing slow (the rate you shot at) you have the appropriate motion blur, but when it is sped up you get the "Private Ryan" staccato effect.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

If you're directly speeding up or slowing down in post, yes, you will get shutter anomalies. Optical retiming software goes a long way to rebuilding frames into the speed ramp you need. But it doesn't always work 100% the way we would like.

I'm with ibloom, there are times actual ramps done in-camera are useful. There are some effects that can only be achieved by an in-camera ramp, especially if combined with a companion ramp or change in aperture or other aspects of the camera system that can only be directly controlled while shooting.

[I Bloom]

IBloom is exactly right.

When you go the post route, say shooting 60fps, you end up with an effect similar to a 90 or 45 degree shutter angle when you speed that up to be "realtime" in the your Avid/FCP. When the shot is playing slow (the rate you shot at) you have the appropriate motion blur, but when it is sped up you get the "Private Ryan" staccato effect.

There was a lot going on with the shutter in "Private Ryan". There are some interesting effects they achieved with modified and out of phase shutters on that movie. One things I'm hoping for with RED is interesting shutter effects, like exposure compensation during a speed ramp. And speed effects as well.

One of the interesting features of the Kinetta prototype was an optional hand crank that allowed you to advance the frames like an old movie camera. I'd use the [insert expletive] out of that. Truly.

IBloom

[Stuart English]

One things I'm hoping for with RED is interesting shutter effects, like exposure compensation during a speed ramp.

The default setting will be to compensate exposure when you speed ramp a RED-ONE ibloom.

I also agree the difference between slow motion created in-camera and in-post is noticeable.

[jbeale]

I don't know if it's worth their while for the RED folks to implement what seems to be a "retro" feature, but I'd guess it is a mere question of software ( / firmware / FPGA-ware) to be able to control the frame timing during capture with a hand crank, which is connected to an optical encoder sending pulses to the camera via USB, or similar. Or it could be sent via radio link. Maybe you would need another person on the crew to control it?

I still have the 16mm Kodak-cine my grandmother used to make home movies, with a hand-wound spring motor drive. It definitely had a characteristic look to longer shots where the spring ran down at the end.

[Stuart English]

Create a "next frame" command and we wouldn't care what an external input device was... so let your imagination run free.

[Mr. Paul White]

Will it be implemented since the day one, i.e., with the first production units?

[Harmonica]

I don't know if it's worth their while for the RED folks to implement what seems to be a "retro" feature, but I'd guess it is a mere question of software ( / firmware / FPGA-ware) to be able to control the frame timing during capture with a hand crank, which is connected to an optical encoder sending pulses to the camera via USB, or similar. Or it could be sent via radio link. Maybe you would need another person on the crew to control it?

I still have the 16mm Kodak-cine my grandmother used to make home movies, with a hand-wound spring motor drive. It definitely had a characteristic look to longer shots where the spring ran down at the end.

You're a genius jbeale! I'd buy one, if only for its therapeutic properties. It's amazing what my 16mm hand-crank projector can do for me. I could crank that baby for hours:wacko:. Seriously though, is there anything this camera won't be able to do? I love it!

[Loomis]

Create a "next frame" command and we wouldn't care what an external input device was... so let your imagination run free.

I don't know. I can imagine quite a bit. Like riding a pig around the town and covering myself in peanut butter. What frame rate would that require? :unsure:

[Hrvoje Simic]

I don't know. I can imagine quite a bit. Like riding a pig around the town and covering myself in peanut butter. What frame rate would that require? :unsure:


911

progressive.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

I don't know. I can imagine quite a bit. Like riding a pig around the town and covering myself in peanut butter. What frame rate would that require? :unsure:

please tell me you dont have a pet dog