Viewfinder or LCD? Can we choose?

[Greg Voevodsky]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember reading that RED is coming with an LCD screen and an optional viewfinder.

May I suggest to the RED team, that we could choose one or the other?

Or at least get credit for one when upgrading to the other?

I find myself thinking that I would prefer a viewfinder over the LCD and if I could save 1 or 2 thousand, not getting the LCD in favor of the viewfinder, I'd prefer that choice.

Who else agrees with me?
I hope modular means choice so we can keep the prices down. Thanks.

[Tonaci Tran]

I believe Jim stated back then that users will get a choice to pick the viewfinder over the lcd at a reduced cost. (as in, you will get the evf at lower cost than buying separate)

[Emmanuel Cambier]

It's agood question.
But by not getting the LCD for "free" you may come to regret it some day.
Of course saving 1k always feel good, but I think I'd rather wait a month or two until I can afford the EVF, then I would have both.
But then if I was to only get one, I'd rather have the EVF.
I gess it will all come down to the EVF's price and the LCD's price if it's not bundle for those who did not reserve in the first place (poor me).

[Anders Holck]

http://deutschrock-ssl1.profihost.com/out/oxbaseshop/html/0/dyn_images/2/896001_vs_p2.jpg

[Jannard]

Nothing has been confirmed yet... and things can change from here.

Jim

[Tonaci Tran]

"evf+LCd" bundle would gather interest.

[Blue]

How about a 24" flip-out screen?

[Blue]

Joke!

[Anders Holck]

Any hint to when just preliminary prices for the optional items will become public?

[Jannard]

We are working really hard to build the system. I don't want to put out a preliminary price for an accessory then change it. We fully understand that it is important for our customers to get an idea of what they are getting themselves into... and we promise to do our best to keep pricing as modest as the camera. But we just need more time to understand our costs.

Thanks for your patience and support. :-)

Jim

[Anders Holck]

ok, understandable. ;)

[Emanuel A.]

Wise words.

[Andrew Benz]

Right on... I am happily working for RED Accessories anyway... I don't want to miss out on anything. Though, the EVF for me is an absolute must.

[Ace]

I would've thought the EVF would be more expensive than the LCD.

[Brook Willard]

I expect that it will be. It should be more technologically challenging to build - from an electronics standpoint or an optics standpoint.

[Jannard]

The EVF is more valuable than the LCD.

Jim

[chuck colburn]

The EVF is more valuable than the LCD.

Jim

Hello Jim,

Yes it is. It's hard to turn the cranks (wheels) while looking at a monitor.

Chuck

[Don Woods]

I think if given the chocie I would chose the EFV to come with the cam and the LCD to be optional. Personally I would just run an output to another monitor. But then again it would be nice to have both so the AC can pull focus right off the LCD

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I think if given the chocie I would chose the EFV to come with the cam and the LCD to be optional. Personally I would just run an output to another monitor. But then again it would be nice to have both so the AC can pull focus right off the LCD

I can't decide and would probably prefer to have both. Although, I wonder about focus on the LCD. I think (according to what's been posted here and elsewhere) that it's to be a 720p LCD. at less than 1/6th of full 4K res, I'd imagine it may make pulling focus difficult at times. A larger 1080p monitor could be invaluable in this regard. ...So many unanswered questions and things to learn. I'm glad that about 1000 people will have their RED before me. ;)

[Don Woods]

I can't decide and would probably prefer to have both. Although, I wonder about focus on the LCD. I think (according to what's been posted here and elsewhere) that it's to be a 720p LCD. at less than 1/6th of full 4K res, I'd imagine it may make pulling focus difficult at times. A larger 1080p monitor could be invaluable in this regard. ...So many unanswered questions and things to learn. I'm glad that about 1000 people will have their RED before me. ;)

True. But I do think that they will have some sort of focus assist built in to the cam. Even if it is just peaking once you get use to what a proper in focus picture looks like on the LCD it shouldn't be to hard... But I agree big is better for focus. But small is light and fits well on the camera.

[Finner]

[QUOTE=IMGentertainment;2877]True. But I do think that they will have some sort of focus assist built in to the cam. Even if it is just peaking once you get use to what a proper in focus picture looks like on the LCD it shouldn't be to hard... QUOTE]

Focus on a LCD is tough. Just ask anyone with a HVX. Some shots seeing accurate focus in an optical viewfinder can even be tough. I thought Red has always stated there would not be much of a focus assist?

[Andrew Benz]

I thought Red has always stated there would not be much of a focus assist?
Hi Finner,

No, it was stated (a few times over at dvxuser) that we would get something very nice to assist us with focus, but as to what it is...has NOT been revealed.

Hope this helps, another cool thing that will help us aquire the best images that we can.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Focus on a LCD is tough. Just ask anyone with a HVX. Some shots seeing accurate focus in an optical viewfinder can even be tough. I thought Red has always stated there would not be much of a focus assist?

Hopefully RED will have some form of assist. As for focus on an LCD, I'm an HVX user and find the onboard LCD and viewfinder to be very poor for pulling accurate focus. And this was a big reason for my initial concern over the RED LCD if it's 720p, which that's probably about it. I know there are some 1080p LCDs showing up on the market at the 7" size or thereabouts, but that's not a whole lot better when considering 4K resolution.

[donatello b]

from what has been posted the past 6 months about focus assist (in lcd/evf) = you will not be disappointed !!! ( translated = it will knock your socks off )

[Don Woods]

I agree pulling good focus on the HVX can at time be a pain in the ass. But then agin I have gotten use to it and now get it first try 90% of the time. There will be some kind of Focus Assist, and I think it will be a very good one.

[Obin Olson]

I hope the EVF is not a $10,000 item, more like a $1-2,000 item? or less??

[Obin Olson]

$995 is a good price IMHO ;) but I may be dreamin!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I hope the EVF is not a $10,000 item, more like a $1-2,000 item? or less??

I doubt it will be $10K. IIRC, Sony only charges $8,995 for the CineAlta EVF option. :D

[Don Woods]

Yeah but then a sony is $115,800 So lets keep the price point in mind. Personally I would be happy with $995 But I like the idea of coming with the camera... or maybe like $595

[Blaine Golden]

I'll certainly be interested to see what options the guys at RED come up with.

[Brook Willard]

If the EVF came out to half of the price of the camera, I'd build a snoot/hood for the LCD and just deal with it... ;) But let's be honest... we won't be screwed.

[Jannard]

You guys are too funny...

1. We have stated that Graeme has a new focus assist invention.
2. The EVF won't be free. But it will be great and properly priced. Don't expect a $10K EVF for $200. But it certainly won't cost $10k. Give us a break before you price our system for us. You guys sleep tight. RED is awake.

Jim

[Chris Gearhart]

Ha ha. Jim, I love your closing quotes.

Snuggling in now. *rustle rustle* Nite!

zzzzzz. . .

[Don Woods]

Hell yeah Jim RED is Awake and well. I dont expect the EFV for free I don't think anyone dose. And I think everything will make sense when we see how all the accessories price points fall.

[Zk2007]

I would take an EVF over the LCD if given the option. But the EVF will most likely cost much more than the LCD. About how much the EVF should cost, well, that's very subjective. Just because RED is $17,500 doesn't mean we should base all accessories price on that. In my mind RED is giving us a huge cut. The camera will sure be worth way more than that if it delivers the promised specs. We don't even know if that will be the real price after the reservations are filled. RED would be a bargain even at $30,000. They may also choose a price strategy of selling the barebones system for cheaper and the more "superfluous" accessories for a higher margin of profit to make up for the cheap bodies. We don't know what will their pricing strategy be. But those asking for a $595 or $995 HD EVF are dreaming. Any descent broadcast SD viewfinder easily costs three times that. Let’s not take RED’s awesome price cut for granted and start demanding dirty cheap accessories. RED’s price is so unbelievably low that many still think it’s impossible to have such camera for such low price. If they decide they need to make a higher profit on the accessories, it’s only fair.

[Harry Clark]

Well said, ZK2007.
The technical challenges of making even 720p or 1080p cameras work well necessitate expensive parts and (relatively) small production runs. This goes doubly for 4K and Red. I would not be surprised to see accessories priced at a higher fractional cost that the $17,500 body would otherwise dictate. But even then the whole system would be an incredible bargain, even to the "indie" filmmaker, who would otherwise suffer the up-front costs of shooting film or the technical limitations and back-end costs of shooting traditional HD.
Cheers,
Harry

[JohnF]

I would settle for standard SD/HD EVF if it displayed somekind of contrast graph. (my shooting style requires a viewfinder and contrast is most often the best way of judging focus on poor EVF's) But that would be shooting at max 1080 with something like 4K I would demand something much better.

Of course I would like a HD display to refer to like any normal HD camera has following behind. But this all depends on shooting style, shooting environment(location etc) and of course subject. Portability and low crew numbers are my personal requirements.

That said if the LCD doesn't throw the balance off the camera too much and has decent enough shading from light then I'll work with it. The potential of RED leaves me happy to wait for a viewfinder solution but it will narrow down what I could initially shoot.

[Hoffmann Films]

A good HD EVF is worth some bucks and I'm sure RED will develop a great one. I'm looking forward to all the news on RED in the coming months.

[Steven Parker]

The EVF seems the way to go, if we could pick and choose... I mean, how many of us have a set of 35mm primes waiting for their RED to show up? A good onboard LCD is a relatively cheap rental to flesh out an early RED package.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Hi Finner,

No, it was stated (a few times over at dvxuser) that we would get something very nice to assist us with focus, but as to what it is has been revealed.

Hope this helps, another cool thing that will help us aquire the best images that we can.
may software autofocus assist? with gridlines or something..

also.. is it possible to just use a panasonic viewfinder or sony.. something like...

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d97/zakaree/372646.jpg

[Zakaree Sandberg]

i dont care about HD vf.. or coloring.. as long as i can still focus.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

I hope the EVF is not a $10,000 item, more like a $1-2,000 item? or less??

oh god, 10,000 bucks! no way. 700-1000 bucks!
preferably 700:) or without lcd.. 200?

[chuck colburn]

oh god, 10,000 bucks! no way. 700-1000 bucks!
preferably 700:) or without lcd.. 200?

I think it will more exspensive then that. A focusable eyepiece while not the most complicated of things has to have at least four things that need to be of high quality. One is something to focus on. Since this is not a film camera it is not a simple ground glass. Rather a small electronic viewing screen with the related electronics involved. The viewing eyepiece it's self must be of sufficent quality to correct for curvereture of field and for chromatic abberations and this would require at least three and better yet four individual optical elements precisely spaced and mounted relative to each other. Then this optical group has to be able to move to and fro to accomadate different peoples eyesight. And finally all this has to be mounted in a rotatable housing to allow the use of some form of leveling. All in all more exspensive than even a small high quality lcd monitor.

Chuck

[Brook Willard]

We can guess all they want... but they won't tell us until they're ready to. All ridiculous speculation will do is have some whuffo say "Yeah, the camera's only $17,500... but the EVF is $10,000!!!"

So the LCD will retail for $23,250 and the EVF comes in at a cool $49,995. Plus tax.

[Eugene]

is it possible to just use a panasonic viewfinder or sony
Why would someone want to ruin the looks of their RED by attaching something hideous like a sony EVF? Dude, I think I spotted your car in the parking lot. :D
http://www.iceman23.com/ricers/ricer3.jpg

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Why would someone want to ruin the looks of their RED by attaching something hideous like a sony EVF? Dude, I think I spotted your car in the parking lot. :D
http://www.iceman23.com/ricers/ricer3.jpg

hhahah:) fantasic picture.. i wouldnt get sony.. id get panasonic.


ps. i have a 2007 black on black lexus is250.. blacked out windows and rims.. wanna buy it? its for sale thanks to red

[Zk2007]

oh god, 10,000 bucks! no way. 700-1000 bucks!
preferably 700:) or without lcd.. 200?

Dream on. This is ridiculously low.

[Sanjin Jukic]

We can guess all they want... but they won't tell us until they're ready to. All ridiculous speculation will do is have some whuffo say "Yeah, the camera's only $17,500... but the EVF is $10,000!!!"

So the LCD will retail for $23,250 and the EVF comes in at a cool $49,995. Plus tax.

An old type of EVF is too expensive to make. You are right, have a look at the Sony's 2.7" HD Color LCD Viewfinder for the HDC / HDW Series price is $10,500.00

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/cinealta/shoot/hdcf950.shtml

I was suggesting to try out re-invent the Video Eyewear (Head Mounted Displays) like a viewfinder. Today's prices of these kind of devices are about US $ 1000 with the resolution 800 x 600, 1.44 Million pixels per display, etc. You could have options for two or for one eye viewing. All others who do not like it do not need to buy it and can look for much more expensive old fashion EVF.

[REDHKSC]

Yes, indeed that we can loose any LCD display than a GOOD EVF has more communications with RED One . No other LCDs can repalce RED's own EVF.

I am a patient guy from 1.3 billion o + Indian nearly 2 Billion to witness 4K Digital Cinema camera happen to the half of the population of the world.

Stewart
Founder
REDHKSC
HkG / CHINA and India

[REDHKSC]

may software autofocus assist? with gridlines or something..

also.. is it possible to just use a panasonic viewfinder or sony.. something like...

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d97/zakaree/372646.jpg

JVC ( Victor Company of Japan a parent company of Matshashita - Panasonic ) has many CRT based Viewfinders in stock as well.

* 4K to PROHD tape ( 19.7Mb/s in 4:2:0 as a final cheapest tape as distribuion tape format is not a good idea ??? )

Stewart

[REDHKSC]

PROHD Tape is a mini DV tape and the capacity is 11GB costs only less than USD 5.00 !!!

Does anyone knows JVC had their very first RED Camcorder on the shoulder to blew Hoolywood away " Back to the future " ?

Besides SOON ONLY NOT YET or PANDA, and we as a leader RED 's partner is coming to help us to help others.

Stewart
Founder
REDHKSC

[Sanjin Jukic]

Yes, indeed that we can loose any LCD display than a GOOD EVF has more communications with RED One . No other LCDs can repalce RED's own EVF.


The RED 1280x720 px LCD should stay, the optitional EYEWEAR viewfinder is about to get those pixels closer to your eyes with the same resolution but for the less money than the old fashion and expensive EVF that has a price about more that half of the RED ONE. Let's call the optitional EYEWEAR viewfinder and Nikon F mount manual lenses a low budget or the indie RED accessories. Sony like HD EVF, Cookes and Zeiss Cine lenses the high-end budget RED accesories.

[REDHKSC]

The RED 1280x720 px LCD should stay, the optitional EYEWEAR viewfinder is about to get those pixels closer to your eyes with the same resolution but for the less money than the old fashion and expensive EVF that has a price about more that half of the RED ONE. Let's call the optitional EYEWEAR viewfinder and Nikon F mount manual lenses a low budget or the indie RED accessories. Sony like HD EVF, Cookes and Zeiss Cine lenses the high-end budget RED accesories.

I've got you 3rd Man NOT XMEN, I hope the BIG Cheeses shall share the bill.

Somebody should pay not just ONLY RED, and where are the BIG BOYS to share their HIGH Profits ACCESSORIES with RED ?

Stewart
A gardener for some " Fair Trade " deals in the World

[Sanjin Jukic]

Redhksc,

谢谢各位

[REDHKSC]

3rd Man,

I had a wonderful moment in the street named " RING " when I was a Kid to visit Vienna in 18 years ago. The place with Arts to me in Europe anyway.

I have used my JVC GY-HD100E with P+S and Zesis 's ultra prime lenses for TV commericals as well. I know you are using interlace format + M2 right ?

Stewart
Hong Konger

[Sanjin Jukic]

Stewart.

If ever you are passing Vienna don't hesitate to give a call. The numbers find via my page link below.

[Sanjin Jukic]

An old type of EVF is too expensive to make. You are right, have a look at the Sony's 2.7" HD Color LCD Viewfinder for the HDC / HDW Series price is $10,500.00

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/cinealta/shoot/hdcf950.shtml

I was suggesting to try out re-invent the Video Eyewear (Head Mounted Displays) like a viewfinder. Today's prices of these kind of devices are about US $ 1000 with the resolution 800 x 600, 1.44 Million pixels per display, etc. You could have options for two or for one eye viewing. All others who do not like it do not need to buy it and can look for much more expensive old fashion EVF.

Mel Gibson is watching through the Sony EVF attached on the Panavision Genesis camera at the Apocalipto set in Mexico. Also you could see a such huge Panavision lens or zoom labeled "EL HUBBLE".

The picture is too big for the forum page but click at the link below, open and see it on the another page separetely.

http://outnow.ch/Media/Img/2006/Apocalypto/set.fs/06?w=1400&h=933&full=1&print=1

[Justin Anderson]

We are working really hard to build the system. I don't want to put out a preliminary price for an accessory then change it. We fully understand that it is important for our customers to get an idea of what they are getting themselves into... and we promise to do our best to keep pricing as modest as the camera. But we just need more time to understand our costs.

Thanks for your patience and support. :-)

Jim

Of course guys, there's always the industry alternative where the company doesn't say anything about their product until weeks before launch. :D

Even with some uncertainties, I like the "honest progress updates" method much better...