Meet "Prague"

[Jarred Land]

Franky would be proud..

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_1187508734.jpg

[Poi Boy]

that is one supa clean frame ! yahoo,gimme, gimme.
Aloha
-A
ps. I love the W doll..why no pins ?

[Jarred Land]

that is one supa clean frame ! yahoo,


Shot at 500 ASA.

[Unwounded]

Oh Jarred.....what a nice way to end my night. Thanks.

Which lens(T-stop)?
Details of recording/workflow to still image?

[Poi Boy]

didn't go unoticed....i've ordered my nds. what lens ?
-A

[MarcusX]

I guess it's "prague", not "prauge", right?

Is this the final prototype before shipping? Looks great, good job!

[Jarred Land]

Shot on the RED 18-50 CF Zoom at T5.6.

Opened in Redcine, scrubbed to a frame and exported as a 4k DPX still.

Scaled to 2k jpg then to 1k JPG for web.

[Corrado Silveri]

Really cool. Thanks.
First thing to do in the morning: check Reduser.
Sometimes the day will flow away soo smoothly...

[Gunleik Groven]

And when the dogs are biting, Jarred throws us a bone!

Thanks a bunch Jarred, Jim & co.

Gunleik

[WesG]

production camera???? :gun:

[JVB]

looks great!

[Sanjin Jukic]

Amazing!

[Jack Wester]

Meet Prague...


Are we right in assuming that Prague is first of the assembly line? Is this #1? Or is it a preproduction unit? Tell us more!!!

/ Jack

[Seth Larney]

Very nice Jarred !
I guess there's no chance of getting a 4K frame of this ? :)

[Emanuel A.]

Thanks for your care chief -- after all, this has been especially quiet!

[Poi Boy]

Hey Jarred, got a nikkor laying around there somewhere ?
Aloha
-A

[Andrew Benz]

Thanks for your care chief -- after all, this has been especially quiet!

Yes, thank you...

[Ace]

You know the sensor cleanliness is good when you can make out that the background logo is an ink jet print. (This is at 1k)

[Ace]

Can Dubya hold up a sign saying "mission accomplished" in the final test?

[David Cubbage]

So nice to wake up to on a Sunday morning, and such a clean image. So this is what we can expect to see with the sensor at 500 ASA. Thanks very much Jarred for taking time out to share.

One happy bunny!!!

[Poi Boy]

please don't.. that would mean the camera will never be released.
-A

[Ace]

please don't.. that would mean the camera will never be released.
-A

Touche

[Ace]

I think this camera is going to create new jobs in the film industry. "Dust and speck supervisors". Seriously though, this thing is so clean that its going to resolve dust specks.

[Emanuel A.]

:) Lol

[Emanuel A.]

please don't.. that would mean the camera will never be released.
-AYes :help:

[Martin Jäger]

any possibility to get it fullres dpx or tiff or png?

martin

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Jarred,

Any chance of seeing the 4k DPX?

Stephen

[Jim Arthurs]

Even my HVX-200 is super clean when you scale to 1/4 the original. Well, actually not...

...In any event, it would really be nice to know what the source is like, as the quarter scaling certainly does help to boost the sensitivity and reduce the noise... and I don't think the RED is being advertised as a 1K camera, no matter how smooth a performer it is at that rating...

[Jeremy Hughes]

I'm guessing it can't get any cleaner if you have it at ISO 160 or something. But this is really clean. So much detail in it. And it's only 1K.

I want to see just one 2540p image before the release...

[Evan Owen]

Franky would be proud..

I can't tell much of a difference between this and what we've seen before. But I have a feeling there's alot more to this image than we can see from the 1K version. :biggrin:

Jarred, can we please see the full 4K? Please?

[Jaime Vallés]

Looks really nice, Jarred! Now, if only we could convince you to put up a 100% size crop of some part of that frame...

[Stephen Williams]

Looks really nice, Jarred! Now, if only we could convince you to put up a 100% size crop of some part of that frame...

Hi,

Over the Macbeth chart please.

Stephen

[Paul Hazlett]

thanks for the test. Can you tell me how much light was present through
a meter or just what lights you used and how close.

Thank you kind sir.

[John Wee]

hmmmm ... red lens ...

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

I would love to see a 4K version, cropped or not.

[jbeale]

Shot on the RED 18-50 CF Zoom at T5.6.
Opened in Redcine, scrubbed to a frame and exported as a 4k DPX still.
Scaled to 2k jpg then to 1k JPG for web.

...and cropped, we presume, given the 2:1 aspect ratio (1024x512)

[I Bloom]

please don't.. that would mean the camera will never be released.
-A

Well it might mean that the camera will begin a phased release on 1/20/2009.

Maybe RED should have given out countdown clocks instead of medal R's:
http://www.backwardsbush.com/products.php

IBloom

[Jarred Land]

...and cropped, we presume, given the 2:1 aspect ratio (1024x512)

actually no.. I shot this at 4096x2048.. a 2:1 ratio.

[Evan Owen]

actually no.. I shot this at 4096x2048.. a 2:1 ratio.

Jarred, I've noticed that all the images posted recently have been 1K. Is this maybe a new policy you have for the prototypes?

I seem to remember quite a bit of negative feedback over the 4K stills from "Crossing the Line" and I'm wondering if that might have made the RED team wary of posting more 4K stills until it's finished. Just a hunch...

[Justin Kirchhoff]

holy crap, once again very impressed. time is counting down.

[Justin Kirchhoff]

Jarred, I've noticed that all the images posted recently have been 1K. Is this maybe a new policy you have for the prototypes?

I seem to remember quite a bit of negative feedback over the 4K stills from "Crossing the Line" and I'm wondering if that might have made the RED team wary of posting more 4K stills until it's finished. Just a hunch...


the 4k stills were jpeg compressed. they still looked as good as they could, but there were minor problems with the compression. i can't remember where the thread went, but there was some good analysis on the grabs.

[Paris Remillard]

>actually no.. I shot this at 4096x2048.. a 2:1 ratio.<

Ummmm....wait a second...does this mean that we can choose an aspect ratio in camera and save some throughput? Like maybe shoot 2.4:1 in camera and have a lower data rate and more CF space? Or maybe,say, 4520x1920 to CF : ) Just a thought.

[Jarred Land]

>actually no.. I shot this at 4096x2048.. a 2:1 ratio.<

Ummmm....wait a second...does this mean that we can choose an aspect ratio in camera and save some throughput? Like maybe shoot 2.4:1 in camera and have a lower data rate and more CF space? Or maybe,say, 4520x1920 to CF : ) Just a thought.

Good.... it's nice to see you guys are paying attention. :matrix:

[Keith Alan Morris]

wow. thats major.

[Evan Owen]

Good.... it's nice to see you guys are paying attention. :matrix:

OK, I remember this was a huge request months ago. How come we're only now hearing about this? Haha, you guys are crazy... :biggrin:

Any more secret features we haven't heard about yet? :huh:

[Jarred Land]

OK, I remember this was a huge request months ago. How come we're only now hearing about this? Haha, you guys are crazy... :biggrin:

Any more secret features we haven't heard about yet? :huh:

umm... yeah we are crazy, but cropping is not really anything new.. how do you think we are getting 2k overspeeds?

[Kevin Halverson]

So, we can crop in camera and reduce the data rate to the storage device, this is wonderful, but can we still have the "full frame" in the EVF at the same time? This would be the equivalent of framing lines in an optical viewfinder and would be very welcome.

[Jaime Vallés]

Good.... it's nice to see you guys are paying attention. :matrix:
Score! Can't wait to see what else y'all have up your sleeves! :gun:

[Evan Owen]

umm... yeah we are crazy, but cropping is not really anything new.. how do you think we are getting 2k overspeeds?

Right, but I think the point is that there are more options now than just 4K or 2K at 16x9. We can choose even wider aspect ratios for lower data rates, right? If I'm understanding this...

[Frank Weeks]

You continue to amaze me.

I love this camera

[Evin Grant]

A 2:1 aspect ratio would gain you 11.5% shooting time and frame rate (Vs. 16:9) no?

[Rick Darge]

Wait, I'm still confused, why can't we see a 4K still of this image?

[CJ Roy]

Wait, I'm still confused, why can't we see a 4K still of this image?

Ditto.

[Steve Freebairn]

I really like the cropping in camera idea! Now I just need to reassemble the cast from Lawrence of Arabia :)

[Evan Owen]

Wait, I'm still confused, why can't we see a 4K still of this image?

I think that's the question of the day (month?).

[Carl Larsen]

Wow. Looks amazing.

Even though 1K is 25% of 4K, we're only dealing with 1/16 of the overall real estate. Try that with your HVX and you're left with a measley 320 x 180 image.

I'm guessing they're holding off on the full 4K images so the rest of us don't overload our pleasure circuits.

Great stuff Red team!

[jaadgy akanni]

Wow. Looks amazing.

Even though 1K is 25% of 4K, we're only dealing with 1/16 of the overall real estate. Try that with your HVX and you're left with a measley 320 x 180 image.

I'm guessing they're holding off on the full 4K images so the rest of us don't overload our pleasure circuits.

Great stuff Red team!


This camera's gonna make me a somebody-can't wait!!!
Hmm..."load our pleasure circuit"...I like that phrase...let me jot it down.

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

WHY cant we see the image at full res?
1k will look ok even from a Varicam.

[Desert Rune]

Wait, I'm still confused, why can't we see a 4K still of this image?
The whole image won't fit on your monitor, silly. :clown2:

[Adrian T.]

Jarred, please, we need the 4K picture to judge its full glory. Or give us at least a 1:1 crop of it. Thanks.

[Evan Owen]

WHY cant we see the image at full res?
1k will look ok even from a Varicam.

Well, surely Jarred has seen all our posts requesting a full-res image, so there must be a reason. Not that I understand what that is... :unsure:

[Häakon]

I, too, would appreciate at least a 1:1 crop if for some reason there is a desire not to post a full 4K image. Though with only 11 days until the camera is scheduled to ship, I can't see why there would be any reservations from the RED camp about posting a 4K still. The floodgates are about to open either way.

The "crop in camera for more recording time" idea could be helpful for some shooters, though I really hope at this point the focus is on getting the cameras out in a timely manner. The early adopters have long been aware that the first lot will be somewhat feature-restricted, and I think we're all fine with continual firmware updates to bring us "up-to-spec." I'd gladly take 4K/24p only for now if it means getting the units out there!

That being said, the image posted at the beginning of the thread does look very nice, 1K or otherwise...

[I Bloom]

Good.... it's nice to see you guys are paying attention. :matrix:

Thinking about the possibility of cropping from 4.5K to maybe get 2.35:1 or slightly larger 2:1? And is there a possibility that this kind of cropping could lead to modest frame rate additions?

IBloom

[Rick Darge]

The whole image won't fit on your monitor, silly. :clown2:

No, but it will let me bring it into photoshop so I can do the scaling myself.

: )

[david farland]

WHY cant we see the image at full res?


Our eyes would burn out....like looking at Jesus!

[Justin Kirchhoff]

the full image would destroy the server bandwidth. they want to post in 4k, but if they do the image will be so huge and have so much data in it that Jarred's server will be toast. the only way they can post them would be jpeg compressed, and it doesn't do the image any justice.

[Rick Darge]

the full image would destroy the server bandwidth. they want to post in 4k, but if they do the image will be so huge and have so much data in it that Jarred's server will be toast. the only way they can post them would be jpeg compressed, and it doesn't do the image any justice.

That makes sense :cold:

[Evan Owen]

That makes sense :cold:

Actually, not so much. They've posted uncompressed 4K images many times in the past, with no shortage of people offering to host them. Torrents were used several times as well, very successfully.

I have a feeling there's some other reason...

[EDIT] I just want to clarify that I have no doubt the image quality is off the charts. I was just intimating that the team is probably gun-shy at this point because of unsubstantiated negative comments they received in the past.

[Joe Aurili]

I imagine since it is so close to release, they don't want anyone analyzing the full image image and calling it the final specs until they are ready. Either that or the Jesus thing ;)

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

the full image would destroy the server bandwidth. they want to post in 4k, but if they do the image will be so huge and have so much data in it that Jarred's server will be toast. the only way they can post them would be jpeg compressed, and it doesn't do the image any justice.

They can always crop it. Thats fine for me

[Michael Schrengohst]

the full image would destroy the server bandwidth. they want to post in 4k, but if they do the image will be so huge and have so much data in it that Jarred's server will be toast. the only way they can post them would be jpeg compressed, and it doesn't do the image any justice.

They can post it on www.mediafire.com
and not use any of their bandwidth.

[Petr Dvorak]

aha, Praha :w00t:

[redhead]

aha, Praha :w00t:

Praha, matka měst, my favorite place in the world!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'd like to see the full 4K frame too - uncompressed TIFF please. I'll host a mirror if bandwidth is a concern. Probably won't happen, I think Jarred just likes to tease us.

[Justin Kirchhoff]

i'm sure if they were offered many other solutions then they may give in. maybe they're saving all the good stuff for the reservation holders to get their cameras and have THEM post 4k stills, uncompressed.

a very long way back i do remember Jarred saying that his server wouldn't be able to allow all that traffic with users, AND the bandwidth of the pic. it makes sense to me......the site would be so friggin slow

[Brook Willard]

Actually, not so much. They've posted uncompressed 4K images many times in the past, with no shortage of people offering to host them. Torrents were used several times as well, very successfully.

I have a feeling there's some other reason...
Dude, it's things like this that'll probably keep them from posting images. They post a perfectly clean 1K scale and people almost accuse them of hiding a bad image with a scale. They've been honest with us from day 1... I doubt they'd break that now.

That said, I'd love to see that DPX. :)

[Evan Owen]

Dude, it's things like this that'll probably keep them from posting images. They post a perfectly clean 1K scale and people almost accuse them of hiding a bad image with a scale. They've been honest with us from day 1... I doubt they'd break that now.

That said, I'd love to see that DPX. :)

Brook, when I said there was "another reason" they're not posting it full-res, I wasn't referring to the quality of the image, I was referring to the hesitancy on the part of the RED team BECAUSE of negative comments in the past.

I'm absolutely positive the image quality is off the charts. That's why I want to see it at 4K! :matrix:

[Miltos Pilalitos]

At least we are sure that RED is a superb 1K camera!

:)

[Steve Freebairn]

Our site would love to host 4k tiffs, we've got tons of bandwidth. PM me if you want me to host it.

[Jannard]

We have shown Peter Jackson's "Crossing" in full 4K to many venues, including 60' and 55' screens. There is not much to hide.

The problem is that no matter what we post, someone wants more and we just don't have the time to set up and post everything. I'll ask Jarred not to tease you anymore. I actually asked him to post that image.

Jim

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Oh, no... Don't tell him to stop! We like being teased. :)

[Jaime Vallés]

I'll ask Jarred not to tease you anymore. I actually asked him to post that image.

No no no! We'll take whatever is there!!! Pretty please!!!!!!! :bye2:

[Mr. Paul White]

Thinking about the possibility of cropping from 4.5K to maybe get 2.35:1 or slightly larger 2:1? And is there a possibility that this kind of cropping could lead to modest frame rate additions?

IBloomDoes it mean we can use anamorphic lenses since we would be to use any part of the sensor... we'd wish to use?

[Daniel Reichenbach]

There is nothing to say, nothing to ask: This JPG looks stunning and I have enough fantasy to imagine what happens if it would be 4K on a big screen

[Stokestack]

...is there a possibility that this kind of cropping could lead to modest frame rate additions?

For a group that talks so much about quality, it's funny that almost no one ever brings up the other option: Crop the image but keep the data rate the same, increasing the quality.

[Emanuel A.]

I believe the RED strategy on the RED ONE launch is a delicate issue, too much relevant beyond the public discussions on forums. Of course, the development (indoor) days are over when the cameras shall reach the streets. In two months, all this will change forever and without no more reserves. We all hope for the benefit of the motion picture. Personally, I'm not so worried on the outcome. There's no perfection nowhere. However, the CineAlta 900 cameras have already been perfect for me, so... I should be fine, I'm sure based on my 35mm sensor size.

[Jarred Land]

Actually, not so much. They've posted uncompressed 4K images many times in the past, with no shortage of people offering to host them. Torrents were used several times as well, very successfully.

I have a feeling there's some other reason....


some of you guys sure know how to fuc* up a good thing. :)

[Joe Aurili]

Jarred, just pull up the full 4K image up on your computer and tell us how good it looks. I am sure it will just take a few bytes, like "awesome", or "Bitchin'" :)

[Jarred Land]

its off the fricking charts. I wouldn't of posted it if I didnt think so.

[Scott Webster]

its off the fricking charts. I wouldn't of posted it if I didnt think so.

Jarred can you go give Red 23 a hug and tell her she'll be home soon. Cheers.

[Emanuel A.]

some of you guys sure know how to fuc* up a good thing. :)It's not unusual when there's anxiety on the air...lots of it. That's the price to pay for the (yours :whistling:) tease... :)

[Edric]

Please don't be angry, Mr Jannard. People are genuinely excited about your camera and want you to succeed. But surely you realise that, by posting a 1k JPEG so close to delivery date, the immediate response from the vast majority of people here will be, 'OK, but now can I see the full version?'

If I worked for, say, Dolby or THX and said 'Hey, check THIS out, people!!' and directed you to an 8Kb Mono MP3 of our new audio technology breakthrough, would it serve much purpose? I wouldn't doubt what they'd achieved but I wouldn't waste my time listening to the file either.

That makes sense, doesn't it?

Good luck with the final stages of production.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Wow....


Uhmm....is that a plate of the front end of the cam lying down there ?:blink:

[Jim Arthurs]

some of you guys sure know how to fuc* up a good thing. :)

Perhaps, but to quote a client, whom I e-mailed this image to... "Hell, even my wife looks good if you scale her down that much."

[Evan Owen]

some of you guys sure know how to fuc* up a good thing. :)

Sorry Jarred. I tried to edit my post in time, but the damage was done... I guess it just proves how important it is to read and re-read what you write to make sure it's coming across the way you intend.

Forums can be dangerous places. :waaa:

[Paul Leeming]

Ok, this is total guesswork on my part, and more than likely wrong, but I think this could be the first shot taken with the peltier style cooling system installed behind the sensor, hence the "Prague" name (as an allusion to both the first feature being shot with the camera and the coldness of the city in winter!).

Could be from a production camera given the date on the slate, but I'm not ready to call that as I'm sure Red would be more than happy to call that one publicly themselves.

Even for a 1K downscale it's gorgeous and coupled with Jarred's enthusiasm for the full size shot I can hardly wait for my cameras to arrive!

Cheers,

Paul

[Jarred Land]

dont worry.... in a couple weeks the floodgates will be open :)

[Emanuel A.]

Word. :)

[JustinGD]

Please don't be angry, Mr Jannard. People are genuinely excited about your camera and want you to succeed. But surely you realise that, by posting a 1k JPEG so close to delivery date, the immediate response from the vast majority of people here will be, 'OK, but now can I see the full version?'

If I worked for, say, Dolby or THX and said 'Hey, check THIS out, people!!' and directed you to an 8Kb Mono MP3 of our new audio technology breakthrough, would it serve much purpose? I wouldn't doubt what they'd achieved but I wouldn't waste my time listening to the file either.

That makes sense, doesn't it?

Good luck with the final stages of production.

Dolby or THX wouldn't release anything before it was done. If Dolby was making the Red camera, we might not have even heard of it yet!

Until they are SURE that the camera is done, I personally am greatul for every pixel of that 1K image.

But it doesn't hurt to ask. Can you post one more Pixel Jarred? maybe a blue one?

[Michael Hastings]

For a group that talks so much about quality, it's funny that almost no one ever brings up the other option: Crop the image but keep the data rate the same, increasing the quality.

Any reason this isn't good/possible. Higher data rate cropped better quality

[Jason Murphy]

Any reason this isn't good/possible. Higher data rate cropped better quality

One question is how significant will the added data rate be to the quality of the image. If you're doing "visually lossless" 12:1 wavelet compression already, I doubt that you're going to be able to pull that much more image quality out of the extra 3-5 MB/s you'll be saving by cropping.

Now, it may be that in some circumstances, a very discerning viewer will be able to see the difference between the normal data rate Redcode RAW compression, and the slightly higher Redcode RAW data rate (we won't know until some serious testing is done). But if Redcode RAW is seen by pretty much everyone as not only a viable but a preferred alternative to shooting uncompressed RAW data (and visually lossless really IS visually lossless, and not simply "the untrained eye won't care"), I don't think the extra data will lead to the significant increase in image quality that you might see with other compression types.

[jbeale]

I thought we'd already been there and done that? Haven't a large group of people seen compressed and uncompressed images and not found a visible difference? Not to say that more options is bad, but it just doesn't seem like a priority at the moment.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Let's just make it a possibility to use a wider part of the sensor…