Differences in formats?

[Eric Edwards]

Hey Everyone,

Just to get this straight to figure out any confusion I might have regarding some of the shooting formats for this camera, it seems there is:

1. 2540p RAW
2. 4K Raw
3. 2K Raw
4. 1080p
5. 720p

My first question is what is the difference between 2540p and 4k? I thought these were the same thing. Also, ive been hearing about shooting Redcode - Raw 4k, which im assuming is 2540p is uncompressed, and shooting 4k gets compressed with redcode?

I am looking to order one of these cameras very soon, but I need to know which format is more in my favor, I would technically like to shoot footage that is uncompressed, I really don't like working with compressed images, but ive also been hearing that there isnt much difference between the uncompressed 4k and compressed 4k?

I will be using this camera for commercial use, and feature films, budgets somewhere in the 500k to 1 million dollar range, so it definitely needs to be used as a good alternative to S35mm Film, meaning which format would probably be best (quality wise) for that?

I also heard that shooting raw is going to require the Red Raw Port Module to output uncompressed footage. If this is so, does this still record raw to the Red Drive (320 GB)? Im planning on getting just that drive, so if I wanted to shoot Raw uncompressed footage would that be sufficient?

I really am a little "un-educated" in this uncompressed vs. compressed elements of this camera, I have been searching around on the forum a lot here to find a definite answer, but I was hoping that you guys here could shed more light on this. Also, what type of computer equipment would be needed for an uncompressed system? Could you still possibly use Adobe Premiere CS3 for uncompressed 4k footage? I would assume you'd need big hard drive arrays to make this happen, but if that NLE could still be used that would be a big help.

Also this camera allows for Formats to be recorded at 10 bit log, 10 bit linear or 12 bit linear bit depth, what really is the difference between these?

Anyhow, any info regarding this would be of much help, and also opinions on whether or not I should invest in that Red Raw Port module would be great as well. Thanks Everyone.

[Floris Liesker]

You best check the FAQ: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1487

[Eric Edwards]

Thanks, I was actually just reading over that...so I suppose its a 10gb Ethernet connection out to a huge raid config? thats what it seems like, but it looks as if the only plus of doing this is for higher frame rates...I hope this is true, because I probably wont be filming at that high of frame rate anytime soon, maybe I will, but probably not soon.

So its probably not worth getting until more is known about it. I just want to make sure im going to get the highest quality out of the camera.

Also, what is the best way to shoot 4k, edit it, then get it ready for film-out to 35mm. When taking it to a film house, what format should I give them, do I transfer back out to 4k and give them a hard drive with the redcode file?

[Evin Grant]

Shoot 4K Redcode RAW, I'd reccomed CF cards for commercials. You WILL NOT see a difference between Redcode and uncompressed. If Redcode is good enough for Steven Soderburg and Peter Jackson I'm sure it's good enough for us. The easiest way to post is Final Cut which will edit the Redcode natively. Then use Redcine or Scratch to output DPX frames for your film out. You can also transcode to Apple Pro res if 2K 4:2:2 is all you need. That gives you the advantage of doing your DI in Apple's Color apllication. Check this out...

http://www.evingrant.com/EvinGrant/Coke.html

It's a commercial I shot on the HVX200 and finished in Color, gave it the whole "Oh Brother" treatment in the trees.
It's really powerfull once you learn how to use it.

[Eric Edwards]

Im actually going to be using anything on Windows, probably Adobe or Avid, so I wont have the luxury of Apple unfortunately. But are the principles the same on windows?

[I Bloom]

Let me try an break it down for you as best I can, the word RAW is used two different ways these days, and especially with RED.

RAW always means untouched information, no color correction or gamma curves, that is read directly from the sensor. The sensor uses a Bayer Pattern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_Filter) which must be "debayered" (also "demosaiced" or "interpolated") so that each pixel has three values of red, green, and blue. Thats mostly what RAW means, but people also use the term just to mean uncompressed.

To make this even more confusing, when we say REDCode RAW we mean compressed but not debayered. Thats actually the genius of the system that RED is proposing.

One other fact you might need to know is that a Bayer pattern doesn't neccessarily scale into a smaller or larger Bayer pattern (though Graeme Nattress might be working on a way) so when we talk about formats that are scaled to sizes smaller than 4K (scaled not cropped) they become RGB, meaning the camera performs the debayering and scales the image leaving a smaller RGB image. REDCode RGB is debayered, scaled and compressed.

IBloom

[Evin Grant]

Im actually going to be using anything on Windows, probably Adobe or Avid, so I wont have the luxury of Apple unfortunately. But are the principles the same on windows?

We don't know yet what the editing will be like in those apps. There is a possibility that any quicktime aware program will be able to cut the Redcode. But we won't know for sure till the codec is available. At the moment the only sure fire way to edit on a PC is Redcine. You will have to use this program to transcode your camera files to your chosen proxy fromat for editing and re-conform for online at the end.

[wshultz]

I love that "O Brother" look on that spot, Evin. Was that a preset or lots of customization? Hey, are you still going to go with Nikon lenses or are you holding out for the Red lenses now? I'm rather hoping you'll go with the Nikons and show lots of people what can be done.

[I Bloom]

I am looking to order one of these cameras very soon, but I need to know which format is more in my favor, I would technically like to shoot footage that is uncompressed, I really don't like working with compressed images, but ive also been hearing that there isnt much difference between the uncompressed 4k and compressed 4k?

Compression is really useful. Rather than thinking of compression as a way to degrade high grade images I like to think of it as a way to add detail to an amount of image data that would otherwise be very low resolution. Wavelet compression is a very pleasing way of doing this.

Here are some definitions:

2540p RAW also known as 4.5K RAW: (2540 is the vertical resolution used to compare HD formats) In the current specs this is only available only through the RAW optical port. The images recorded are:
uncompressed 12 bit bayer patterns.
4K Redcode RAW: wavelet compressed 12 bit Bayer Pattern, can be recorded to the red drive, compact flash or red ram.

2K RAW: uncompressed 12 bit Bayer Pattern cropped from the center of the sensor and streamed over the optical port.

2K Redcode RAW: wavelet compressed 12 bit Bayer patterns cropped from the center of the image, can be recorded to red drive, compact flash or red ram.

1080p RGB: wavelet compressed 12 bit RGB images debayered and scaled from 4K. Notably there has been some debate about whether this will be available. When you scale from bayer pattern you must multiply the data by three for each pixel.

720p RGB: wavelet compressed 12 bit RGB images debayered and scaled from 2K. Similar to 1080p.

2K Scaled Redcode RAW: Jim Jannard listed this as under developement, this would be: wavelet compressed bayer patterns that have been scaled from 4K. Its possible they will achieve this by debayering 4K, scaling to 2K RGB and removing samples to recreate the bayer pattern, however this information is currently only contained in the brain of one Canadian.

I hope this helps,

IBloom

[Steve Freebairn]

Evin, I just checked out your coke spot and a few others. You're stuff is very impressive!

[Eric Edwards]

So the Peter Jackson film and the Soderbergh films are both filmed with 4k Redcode Raw and not the 2540p Raw?

[Steve Gibby]

So the Peter Jackson film and the Soderbergh films are both filmed with 4k Redcode Raw and not the 2540p Raw?

Yes, both shot using 4k REDCODE RAW. In a demonstration in L.A. last November (Nuart Theater) I saw a 4k projection on a full-sized theater screen of 4k uncompressed RAW from a RED prototype, followed immediately by a short clip of 4K REDCODE RAW from a RED prototype...and my experienced eyes couldn't really see a difference between the two. 4K REDCODE RAW is what you want to shoot, believe me - for storage amd mobility reasons. I think very few people will shoot 4k uncompressed RAW with RED One - only certain high-budget stationary productions.

Note 1: Peter Jackson was at that same screening I attended. IMO it was that demonstration that helped inspire him to check deeper into RED and then do the "Crossing the Line" short before NAB.

Note 2: The Nuart theater demo footage was shot with an early prototype using the old board. I expect the footage from the new prototypes and shipping cameras, which now have the new boards, to look even better.

My opinion: 4K REDCODE RAW projected with a 4k projector onto a fill-sized theater screen looks stunning...

[Craig Meadows]

Shoot 4K Redcode RAW, I'd reccomed CF cards for commercials. You WILL NOT see a difference between Redcode and uncompressed. If Redcode is good enough for Steven Soderburg and Peter Jackson I'm sure it's good enough for us. The easiest way to post is Final Cut which will edit the Redcode natively. Then use Redcine or Scratch to output DPX frames for your film out. You can also transcode to Apple Pro res if 2K 4:2:2 is all you need. That gives you the advantage of doing your DI in Apple's Color apllication. Check this out...

http://www.evingrant.com/EvinGrant/Coke.html

It's a commercial I shot on the HVX200 and finished in Color, gave it the whole "Oh Brother" treatment in the trees.
It's really powerfull once you learn how to use it.

That's some nice HVX work!

[Zakaree Sandberg]

shoot 4k redcode... use phantom if your looking for highspeed.
RED ONE is not a highspeed camera.

[Evin Grant]

I love that "O Brother" look on that spot, Evin. Was that a preset or lots of customization? Hey, are you still going to go with Nikon lenses or are you holding out for the Red lenses now? I'm rather hoping you'll go with the Nikons and show lots of people what can be done.

It was my own tweaked version of the bleach bypass color FX. I also used the Key secondary to remove all the green from the trees in the background of the solw mo walking shots.

Yes, I'm still going Nikon, at least till I can squirrel away another $30K to buy Red lenses. Still, I think the Birger+AFS Nikkor combo is going to be real popular. Those lenses are just beautiful, I like Zeiss glass but Nikkors are just warmer and less clinical, especially the 28-70mm f2.8. It's been one of my favorite people lenses for still photography for many years.


Evin, I just checked out your coke spot and a few others. You're stuff is very impressive!


That's some nice HVX work!

Thanks, I do have fun doing this stuff.