cinematography forum vs. reduser forum

[najafi/didarfilm]

hi RED lovers (actually i'm of those)
I'm a really RED lover and i'm getting all my needed data from this forum BUT
today i had a visit of cinematography forum,
i think it would balance your imaginations between all these applauses and appreciations that you hear around.

i personally believe in Jim and i hope he could answer all suspicious questions by releasing RED on time, full featured.

best

[Noah Kadner]

That's where you go if you want to see a lot of folks about to be leapfrogged in their Ford Model T's...

[Poi Boy]

I really could not care less about that forum or about trying to convince any of the doubters. In fact I'm counting on the doubters to give me a competetive advantage when I receive my first camera (despite limited features).

Aloha
-A

[Damien Molineaux]

hi RED lovers (actually i'm of those)
I'm a really RED lover and i'm getting all my needed data from this forum BUT
today i had a visit of cinematography forum,
i think it would balance your imaginations between all these applauses and appreciations that you hear around.

i personally believe in Jim and i hope he could answer all suspicious questions by releasing RED on time, full featured.

best

Are you talking about .net or .com ?

Cinematography.net is in my opinion a very good forum, yes there have been critics and doubts, but there have also been very intelligent questions and discussions.

Cinematography.com on the other hand, I don't know what they're up to of late, but after seeing the level of disucssions there some time ago, I decided not to return there.

Cheers,
Damien

[Alexander Nikishin]

How about cheese vs. queso?

[StephenMurphy]

On the flip side of that theres far too much fan boy waffle on this site. To get an unbiased view with accurate information you need to visit both sites, sift through the overly enthusiastic naysayers and overly entusiastic fan boys and make up your own mind. When RED gets released and gets into the hands of DP's who shoot features and commercials then you'll see it pop up on CML more often.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I wasn't impressed with their forums at all, a lot of pretentiousness and not much innovative thinking. I guess I wouldn't like it either if I were a well established DP seeing a lot of new people coming into the industry, too much competition, but a lot of the great advances and work made in film are not by the veterans but by the newcomers. They know that, and it scares them. Of course, the vast majority of newcomers are discouraged and leave, rightfully so, but the few who make it are the future of filmmaking. Not the people still shooting 35mm and claiming it will never be beaten, editing with their linear editing systems, and talking about the need for 100 people on every set to get the job done. God bless their experience but stubbornness is no way to approach the future.

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

There is nothing new about competition, being unique is what its all about IMHO.

When Red can be tested back to back with film, then we will have some answers, until then it's pure speculation.

FWIW very few well established DOP's own cameras, they can then choose the best tool for the job without having a horse in the race.

Stephen

[StephenMurphy]

I guess I wouldn't like it either if I were a well established DP seeing a lot of new people coming into the industry, too much competition, but a lot of the great advances and work made in film are not by the veterans but by the newcomers. They know that, and it scares them.


hmmm... right.
Professional DP's will embrace any technology that allows them to deliver images that are the equal in quality and ease of use to the current standard i.e 35mm. Just because you own a camera doesnt mean you're suddenly going to be able to break into the field. The type of work you'd "take" from established DP's is work they wouldnt want in the first place because chances are the producers are interested in a cheap camera rental not the DP who owns it. If a film crew needs to be 100 strong then just because you're shooting on a RED camera or any other brand of camera isnt going to change that. The great thing about RED (and the D-20 and Genesis) is that it integrates very well with how a current film crew works. Why would a DP be scared of the RED? Its not going to do his job for him - he'l still have to light, compose and expose the image. And id be curious to hear of all of these great advances that you think newcomers have come up with? If you want to see innovation try working on a real set with an experienced Key grip - thats innovation.
When the RED gets released and used and tested if it performs as well as expected then it will of course be taken up by pro users. Jim knows that. Just because people are sceptical doesnt mean they arent interested in the project. Any of the DP's i know are going to wait untill its in the field, and can be tested, before jumping up and down and proclaiming the second coming - its another camera for christs sake, its only one of the dozens of tools a DP uses. It wont write better scripts, it wont give you better visual ideas. It wont suddenly make you Connie Hall and Studios arent going to ring you up and offer you a job just because you own a RED. There are one or two members on this forum that would do well to remember that, and yes there are also some members on the other forum that should wait untill the camera is out/tested before bashing it.
I honestly think both forums should wait untill it gets released before making any more judgements either way about the camera.

[David Mullen ASC]

I'm not "scared" of any young people entering the industry -- they are always young people entering the industry (I was one of them 16 years ago) and there always will be, and there will always be more experienced and more talented people than than you as well. I compete for jobs with DP's who are twenty years younger than me (I'm 45) and twenty years older than me. Competition with emerging new talent is nothing new. I have to worry just as much about an up-and-comer getting a job that I wanted as I do about someone like John Toll going after a job I want.

Most feature DP's don't get hired because they own a particular camera (except on the cheapest of stuff), they get hired because of the quality of the work on their reel, how well they do in the job interview, and their credits. I managed to get into indie DP work without owning a camera. I actually didn't want a camera because I wanted to know that I got a job because they liked my work, not because they wanted access to my camera. I was willing to lose work because of not owning a camera because I met too many unhappy owner-operators who were essentially raped by low-budget producers looking for deals and found themselves just exploited year after year on the no-budget stuff.

When the F900 first came out, you had a few inexperienced producers asking for DP's who had only shot HD to apply for certain jobs, but that disappeared eventually because now it's assumed that any competent DP is familiar with both film and digital technology, and most are, and most will learn the RED just as they've learned all the other new cameras to come along, and the ones that will come along after the RED. First year or so of the RED, and early adopters will have a natural advantage, but after that, when the RED becomes more or less mainstream, then that advantage disappears and you'll go back to competing with each other based on talent and credits.

The drive to keep learning new things is so strong among many DP's that at events for the Arri D20, Dalsa, or RED camera, I see some 80+ year-old retired DP's show up who don't have any reason to keep learning this stuff, but they do.

So maybe it makes young people like Jonathan feel better to talk about how the industry is scared of people like him, but I'm in that industry and I'm not particularly scared of Jonathan. I am aware, however, that there is competition for jobs and that will never stop, and I will keep getting older and that younger and younger people will keep showing up to compete -- even Jonathan will have to face the reality that someday he might be one of the old pros watching new faces enter the industry with their new ideas and new cameras. Anyone who thinks that won't happen is deluded or blind. We are in an industry of constant change and competition, and we all get older every year -- that's the only consistent thing about it!

[Mick van Rossum, NSC]

Amen to that, David. Great post !

Mick van Rossum NSC

[JustinGD]

hmmm... right.
Professional DP's will embrace any technology that allows them to deliver images that are the equal in quality and ease of use to the current standard i.e 35mm. Just because you own a camera doesnt mean you're suddenly going to be able to break into the field. The type of work you'd "take" from established DP's is work they wouldnt want in the first place because chances are the producers are interested in a cheap camera rental not the DP who owns it. If a film crew needs to be 100 strong then just because you're shooting on a RED camera or any other brand of camera isnt going to change that. The great thing about RED (and the D-20 and Genesis) is that it integrates very well with how a current film crew works. Why would a DP be scared of the RED? Its not going to do his job for him - he'l still have to light, compose and expose the image. And id be curious to hear of all of these great advances that you think newcomers have come up with? If you want to see innovation try working on a real set with an experienced Key grip - thats innovation.
When the RED gets released and used and tested if it performs as well as expected then it will of course be taken up by pro users. Jim knows that. Just because people are sceptical doesnt mean they arent interested in the project. Any of the DP's i know are going to wait untill its in the field, and can be tested, before jumping up and down and proclaiming the second coming - its another camera for christs sake, its only one of the dozens of tools a DP uses. It wont write better scripts, it wont give you better visual ideas. It wont suddenly make you Connie Hall and Studios arent going to ring you up and offer you a job just because you own a RED. There are one or two members on this forum that would do well to remember that, and yes there are also some members on the other forum that should wait untill the camera is out/tested before bashing it.
I honestly think both forums should wait untill it gets released before making any more judgements either way about the camera.

I don't think anybody is saying that DP's are scared of the camera, if anything they are scared of the Price point. Especially the ones who own their own camera. They still have to pay for those cameras, but if by this time next year producers can hire a professional DP with or without their own equipment and rent a Red for cheaper, it makes it tougher to find work.

Of course it won't make you Connie Hall, but creating movies is about two things. Being an artist (which Red can't help you with) and having enough money to create that movie. That's what Red does, you only have to be an artist, not an artist with money or connections. Now all the average artists with lots of money have to compete with brilliant artists with no money. That scares average artists.

Finally asking what great advances newcomers will come up with is kind of a strange question. But if you don't think young artists who have the advantage of studying everything that came before them have the ability to innovate, you need to brush up on some history.

[Evan Owen]

David, this industry needs more professionals like you.

Thank you!

[Jay A. Kelley]

My problem with C.com has nothing to do with the subject matter, it has to do with a lot of very inconsiderate people who spend more time trying to convince everyone on that site why they are right, and more importantly everyone else is very very wrong (And a fair amount of insults to follow).

The attacks and poor manners in that place are so common, that I go there for the same kind of entertainment that I would watching Wifeswap, Survivor, or some other kind of conflict based trailer trash material.

I will be the FIRST to admit that my primary interest is the RED subforum so it's possible that this subforum is simply a magnet for these people and the others may be very open, creative, and helpful. But as for the RED subforum, I am NOT at all impressed, and this blame lies on both the users for having a lack of self control and respect for others, and the moderator for setting a tone which I have heard him refer to as "free speech". Bah! We're also allow to fart in restaurants, but just because we can does not mean it's a good idea.

Jay

[David Mullen ASC]

I'd point out that a number of the most passionate anti-RED posters are just as young (20-somethings) as the passionate pro-RED posters on Cinematography.Com...

Older and wiser filmmakers tend to not get as worked up over technology. I remember when Roger Deakins was asked about digital replacing film, he said something to the effect of "it's just a box with a lens on it to tell stories with".

Professionals just want something that makes good images efficiently and affordably; they are not worried that other people have access to that technology. You can hand out free Panaflexes and Kodak stock to every person in America but that doesn't mean that they will all be another Storaro or Lubezsky, nor that the studios will hire anyone to shoot their movies.

Talent, experience, technical skills, personality, etc. all matter more in the job market. And if the RED increases the visibility of new talent out there, that's great -- I'm just like anyone else who is a fan of movies, I want to see striking images in the theaters, and more often. But if the RED camera will be as ubiquitous as people here claim it will be, then doesn't that suggest that what will separate us in the job market won't be the RED camera, but our skills in using it? My competition is another human being, not a camera.

I get a lot of calls from DP's about to shoot some feature or TV series digitally and the #1 question I get is "will it slow me down?" They know the picture quality issues from their own eyes, but the unknown is whether they will lose minutes here and there dealing with something new.

Sure, in the lowest-budget level of indie filmmaking, some DP with a RED camera will have an advantage, just as they did before with some other camera they owned. But once you get above that level (and most people want to get out of low-budget filmmaking eventually because they want a middle-class income), producers mainly are looking at reels and at your experience level -- they will probably just look for a deal on renting a RED camera after they hire the DP. Feature filmmaking tends to follow a model of setting up a temporary company to make that one particular movie in a limited period of shooting time (let's say three to four weeks straight on a low-budget movie), so to some extent, renting makes more sense to producers, whether it's getting an owner-operator who comes with a camera or hiring a DP and then renting the camera. So when the rental houses start getting the RED and rental prices drop over time, what you'll have is a lot of low-budget DP's who own cameras being beat-up to lower their rates to match the deals at the rental houses. "Why should I pay you $1000/day for your RED when so-and-so will rent it to me for $700/day?" So you cut your rate to get the job. Unfortunately, it's an industry that tends to break people financially because the profit margins are so slim for gear.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about the world I know, which is low-budget feature filmmaking in Los Angeles from a DP's perspective -- other industries (like EFP, etc.) follow different models, and regional filmmaking, away from the world of rental houses cutting deals, is different too. Same goes for other countries.

[StephenMurphy]

But if you don't think young artists who have the advantage of studying everything that came before them have the ability to innovate, you need to brush up on some history.

Im not saying young artists dont have the ability to innovate. Im saying innovation isnt exclusive to young artists; my history is fine thank you.

[David Mullen ASC]

That's what Red does, you only have to be an artist, not an artist with money or connections. Now all the average artists with lots of money have to compete with brilliant artists with no money. That scares average artists.


Anyone who is scared of competition is in the wrong industry. I'm only scared by my own limitations as an artist.

To be more precise, since low-budget filmmakers could shoot on DV or HDV right now, and have been able to use affordable digital solutions for years now, what the RED gives you is 35mm quality at midrange pro video gear prices. What exactly does that mean? Well, it means that the smaller features that may have opted to shoot on DV or HDV -- or even HD and Super-16 -- will see a tremendous jump in quality with the RED. But the notion that without the RED, you couldn't make a movie before because you didn't have the money, is not really true. You just couldn't have made it look like 35mm before, not at that price point.

So the bigger question really is: will indie feature filmmaking be better, will the movies be better, since they have a RED instead of a DV or HDV camera, or will they simply look better? The access to feature filmmaking is really the same as it has been for the past several years, just that there is now a serious potential jump in picture quality. But what impact will that have? Increased respect from critics, audiences, and distributors because now your tiny movie looks like it was shot in 35mm? Will that matter for all types of indie movies? Would a movie like "Station Agent", shot in Super-16, been more successful, or a better movie, if it had been shot on the RED, or would it have simply looked better?

When everyone can make pictures of high technical quality thanks to new technology, doesn't that just mean that something else will matter more to distinguish them from each other? Like story, acting, writing, concepts?

I think the impact of RED on indie filmmakers will matter more for those who know how to use the increased picture quality effectively for artistic reasons -- unfortunately for the vast number of indie filmmakers who just want to be another Kevin Smith, it means that their rip-off of "Clerks" will just look really sharp and grainless.

For those young DP's out there on this group, ultimately your careers, if successful, will far outlive RED or any camera technology, so remember it's really yourself that you're selling on the market, not your camera, which will be some other camera in the years to come. Don't become gearheads who look to technology to save them. These are all transitory tools that you have to master and then discard and master the next one, but you're the constant in the equation.

[Daniel Gourley]

David as your recent posts have shown, your are a RESPECTED professional in my book. My complaint with C.com has been the attitude of "Professionals" and the air of superiority that so permeates that site. I have been respectful and asked for advice and many times because of my res" for red been treated like shit.

You are not the problem. Hopefully you will influence those around you so I can continue to learn and grow without fear of retaliation.

[JustinGD]

I think the bottom line is that a camera the quality of Red at an affordable price has the ability to reveal new tallent. Obviously David basis his career on his tallent, and his ability to know EVERYTHING, so he see's Red as just a really cool tool. But not everybody is like David.

Hypathetically speaking, somebody comes from money, buys an expensive camera, learns it, then applies for a job. There used to be 10 people applying for that job, but now 20 people are applying because people with less money can own a camera good enough for high budget productions.

The USA used to have the best basketball team in the world because they had all the training facilities. Now that other poor countries are getting better training facilities, the dream team isn't winning as much. If the film industry was the NBA, the current players arn't worried, but the college kids in the USA now have to compete with players from all over the world, so making it into the NBA just became tougher.

What I'm saying is Red is the European basketball league, and Dirk Nowitzki is Awsome! :)

Also, David Mullen is always right, but that's a given.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

i personally believe in Jim and i hope he could answer all suspicious questions by releasing RED on time, full featured.

best

its known that the camera will not be full featured for the first release... please dont be shocked when u hear about this

[donatello b]

"Professional DP's will embrace any technology that allows them to deliver images that are the equal in quality and ease of use to the current standard i.e 35mm"

there's more to it then that ... the technology doesn't have to equal 35mm ( IE: cineAlta) ... if it has the "look " one wants for the project (or fits the budget) it may or may not be equal to 35mm ....

until a DP can go down to their rental house and ask to see a RED they are only hearing spec talk , basing their knowledge ( which could be out dated) on digital on what they are hearing ..... once they can get their hands on it and shoot some images for themselves then they will make a informed decision ... till then , there's not much to talk about .... many working DP's don't have the time to follow camera's that are not available ...

IMO it is not current working DP's that are going to be running scared but the DP's that are just now calling themselves DP's = the DP's at the bottom of the ladder - the DP's mid way up and above know they get hired because of talent/experience not because of a camera ... the DP's just starting out are working no budgets/very low budgets so somebody with a camera and a low price might get the job over somebody their equal because they own a camera ... if i'm a low/no budget producer and i have X $$ - i'm going to look for the BEST deal ( DP & equipment) i can get for my project to stand out ...
so a DP with a DVX might not get choosen if i see a almost equal DP with a RED .. i might only be able to afford a DVX but i'm going to make a offer to the RED ...
also IMO too many RED's in hands of persons that don't have experience will cause the beginning DP rates to fall ...

[planet e]

DV and HDV have brought affordable imaging to everyone. what distinguishes RED is now affordable projected imaging is available. DV doesn't hold up to projection. HDV is a big improvement and could be even bigger with better, more ubiquitous, and more affordable delivery systems. but what is exciting is that RED opens up new venues and an enhanced quality at a price i can afford. i don't think i'm going to be more talented because i have a RED camera. but now i can showcase my work without squirming uncomfortably in my film festival seat because it looks like crap blown up. looking forward to that!

[Jannard]

I originally posted on c.net (CML), dvxuser and c.com announcing our intentions and asking for input. We were treated with "SCAM!" on all boards. Dvxuser came around 1st and started to turn positive and give suggestions... which ultimately turned into Reduser where we have had tremendous response and thousands of suggestions all wrapped in a "full support" attitude.

C.net (CML) certainly has more season veterans that have come to embrace the idea that the RED program is real but has not contributed much in the way of useful input. They typically seem more interested in waiting until the project is done and then making decisions based on our performance. Fair enough. The disrespectful beginning has turned very respectful.

C.com, contrary to Stephen Williams suggestion, has not contributed much of anything except continued disrespectful antagonism. "Fanboys" are quickly put in their place if they try to engage in the conversation. The problem here, IMHO, is that c.com has wasted a tremendous opportunity to contribute. If the members of this board were really as smart as they say they are, they could have influenced the development of RED. David Mullen has been the exception on that board. But then again, he is the voice of reason on all boards he posts on.

I spend most of my time here, not just because there is the same excitement for what we are doing that we have... but because we can always get feedback on any issue we post. We hear both sides and listen carefully. In the last topic about 1080P/720P, someone posted the idea about two builds that could be loaded independantly of each other. That idea has solved a problem for us and we will, in fact, use that idea going forward. We never were able to engage in this type of "development discussion" on any other board.

Jim