EPIC TATTOO Pros and Cons

[Emery Wells]

In my mind there are an overwhelming number of "Pro's" to jumping on the TATTOO train (if you are so lucky) and only 1 con.

After you've taken in all the economic and PR glory, the geeky admiration of your peers and colleagues, and the personal satisfaction of playing with the newest piece of kit, will people (the less educated masses) eventually view TATTOO kits as lesser prototypes, not fully baked cameras? It's seems reasonable to believe that that Aluminum distinction that gives TATTOO's their fame and recognition for the first 3 months might be a hinderance to future rentals. We sometimes get remarks from clients who are actually worried about shooting with our low serial number bodies.

Everyone on reduser knows better of course. In some cases the early REDs /accessories were superior in some ways. Anything that the TATTOO customers find which prompts red to make a change in design will surely be incorporated into the existing TATTOO bodies. We can count on RED to make sure TATTOOs will never be a lesser camera than the production run. Ted even alluded the Mysterium X sensors will be cream of the crop. Hand picked with extra care. But we can't depend on the rest of the industry to know all this and it would just be a shame to spend $28k and then have clients be worried to use your 'prototype' camera.

That being said, when RED comes a knockin' we'll be inked up without question. This is just food for thought. Curious what you guys think.

[Tim Whitcomb]

Hi Emery, I think Fincher shooting with a prototype is all the "validation" one needs when answering the question about it being a BETA... not to mention all the pioneers who bravely (and smartly) shot on RED ONE in the early stages. There already are "real world examples (high profile projects mind you) shot on the M-X.

And now essentially RED is offering the SAME stellar support as the big boys get
for TATTOO owners. That makes it a no-brainer... and Stage 2 is a HELL OF A CONSOLATION for those of us who may not get a TATTOO.

That is called a WIN-WIN. I truly hope we get a TATTOO, but there 98 people before us (after RED 1-5). Mainly because I actually prefer the Aluminum body look... (Im a Mac guy) but I'll be just as happy with STAGE 2.

[Emery Wells]

Hi Emery, I think Fincher shooting with a prototype is all the "validation" one needs when answering the question about it being a BETA... not to mention all the pioneers who bravely (and smartly) shot on RED ONE in the early stages. There already are "real world examples (high profile projects mind you) shot on the M-X.

And now essentially RED is offering the SAME stellar support as the big boys get
for TATTOO owners. That makes it a no-brainer... and Stage 2 is a HELL OF A CONSOLATION for those of us who may not get a TATTOO.

That is called a WIN-WIN. I truly hope we get a TATTOO, but there 98 people before us (after RED 1-5). Mainly because I actually prefer the Aluminum body look... (Im a Mac guy) but I'll be just as happy with STAGE 2.

I fully agree with you Tim but I think you missed my point. Firstly, we all here know damn well that RED isn't going to ship us half baked cameras that will be inferior to the production units that ship 3 or 4 months from now. If for some reason there is a part that proves to be inferior, they will replace them on the TATTOO units.

Select productions that shoot with early prototype productions don't have a choice of choosing between a 'production' camera or a 'beta' camera. The only thing that exists is a 'beta' camera and the gains are greater than the risks so they go for it. My posting was about what happens when the dust settles. When there are hundreds or thousands of 'production' cameras out there, will the less educated masses assume the the aluminum TATTOO cameras are still 'beta' and not as stable or 'good' as the black 'production' units.

Like I said, i'm going to happily and eagerly take a TATTOO if the opportunity arises but im just thinking past the first couple of months here at what people may think. From a rental perspective this is important, as an individual user it's not so important.

[Tim Whitcomb]

I fully agree with you Tim but I think you missed my point. Firstly, we all here know damn well that RED isn't going to ship us half baked cameras that will be inferior to the production units that ship 3 or 4 months from now. If for some reason there is a part that proves to be inferior, they will replace them on the TATTOO units.

Select productions that shoot with early prototype productions don't have a choice of choosing between a 'production' camera or a 'beta' camera. The only thing that exists is a 'beta' camera and the gains are greater than the risks so they go for it. My posting was about what happens when the dust settles. When there are hundreds or thousands of 'production' cameras out there, will the less educated masses assume the the aluminum TATTOO cameras are still 'beta' and not as stable or 'good' as the black 'production' units.

Like I said, i'm going to happily and eagerly take a TATTOO if the opportunity arises but im just thinking past the first couple of months here at what people may think. From a rental perspective this is important, as an individual user it's not so important.

ah, ok. Cool. Well for us, we only rent to feature filmmakers that we know, and as a rental house, Im sure you realize its about "relationships" as much as people off the street, so I don't see it as an issue. Moreover, we frankly hope to have a 2nd EPIC asap as well. So one will be Black and one will be Aluminum. :) That should take care of any "perceived limitations to Tattoo" but again, if someone is really stuck on that... then I probably wouldn't want to rent to them anyway... that kind of ignorance annoys me :)

EDIT: Remember, with the TATTOO comes the SAME personal "A-LIST" support that PJ and FIncher and Soderbergh get. That makes it MORE valuable than Production units imho

[Shawn Nelson]

Right there with you Emery, I posed this question in different wording on the main Oct 30th feedback thread a few minutes ago.

Also it doesn't matter if they are better or not, it's the perception that matters. It'd be cool if Red made them better in some tangible way, so a producer could be like 'Oh, this is the module that has that extra frame rate..."

[Stephen Williams]

Also it doesn't matter if they are better or not, it's the perception that matters. It'd be cool if Red made them better in some tangible way, so a producer could be like 'Oh, this is the module that has that extra frame rate..."

Hi Shawn,

In my experience Producers usually want the one that's cheaper, so an original RED One could fit the bill! Unless he needs that extra frame rate he probably does not want to pay for it.

Stephen

[Meryem Ersoz]

I think the people who keep asking these questions (how many will there be? what color? can we have a bonus feature?) are missing RED's point. If you have to ask, you're probably not the candidate that they're seeking.

- You'll make the money back, so you don't care about the prices, besides you know a screaming bargain when you see one, even if you don't, right away.

- You'll use that experience to buy still more RED products to serve your exploding business down the line, ROI is a given.

- You're such a geek that you'll do anything to get your hands on this new tech ASAP, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.

- You think the price of being part of making history at $28K is well worth it.

- Having a Bat-line to Jim's ear and having him incorporate your ideas and feedback means you have a substantial degree of influence over the direction of the future of filmmaking.

- Having this access will make people seek you out, so you will leverage these connections and have a great time doing it...

- You're such a camera hog that all you can do is lie in bed at night, thinking about the day that you can wrap your hands around a perfect, lovely EPIC...

Et cetera.

I'd put myself in that category, but at cameras #1008 and #1248, I'm sure it will not happen. But these cameras are the future of filmmaking - how can you NOT want to participate or waste breath worrying about whether you can have this or that? Seriously.

If I had #50 or smaller, I wouldn't be on message boards pondering these questions, I'd be running around trying to marshal every connection that I have, trying to pull together productions worthy of the camera as soon as possible and prove to RED that I was an excellent choice for their team.

There are people who would chew their arm off for this opportunity, but their numbers are too high, so it blows me away that there is all this second-guessing of what is being offered by folks with low numbers

'nuff said.

[Emery Wells]

I think the people who keep asking these questions (how many will there be? what color? can we have a bonus feature?) are missing RED's point. If you have to ask, you're probably not the candidate that they're seeking.

- You'll make the money back, so you don't care about the prices, besides you know a screaming bargain when you see one, even if you don't, right away.

- You'll use that experience to buy still more RED products to serve your exploding business down the line, ROI is a given.

- You're such a geek that you'll do anything to get your hands on this new tech ASAP, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.

- You think the price of being part of making history at $28K is well worth it.

- Having a Bat-line to Jim's ear and having him incorporate your ideas and feedback means you have a substantial degree of influence over the direction of the future of filmmaking.

- Having this access will make people seek you out, so you will leverage these connections and have a great time doing it...

Et cetera.

I'd put myself in that category, but at cameras #1008 and #1248, I'm sure it will not happen. But these cameras are the future of filmmaking - how can you NOT want to participate or waste breath worrying about whether you can have this or that? Seriously.

If I had #50 or smaller, I wouldn't be on message boards pondering these questions, I'd be running around trying to marshal every connection that I have, trying to pull together productions worthy of the camera as soon as possible and prove to RED that I was an excellent choice for their team.

'nuff said.

Id politely venture to say you're missing MY point :)

Aluminum be damned i'll go for the TATTOO for all the points listed above. I know that we *will* make our money 10 times over as we have with our RED #40. But after the fame and glory of being an early adopter subsides, all Im saying is that there will be lots of 'unreducated' people out there who may not want to work with one of those 'beta' cameras.

[Meryem Ersoz]

Id politely venture to say you're missing MY point :)

Aluminum be damned i'll go for the TATTOO for all the points listed above. I know that we *will* make our money 10 times over as we have with our RED #40. But after the fame and glory of being an early adopter subsides, all Im saying is that there will be lots of 'unreducated' people out there who may not want to work with one of those 'beta' cameras.

If you've made your money 10x over, why would you even care? Buy one that looks more conventional, and either run it into the ground shooting for yourself or for your own productions, or put it on a shelf next to a magic lantern or Edison phonograph....It is a no brainer, if that's indeed the case.

[Adil Lahoulou]

Id politely venture to say you're missing MY point :)

Aluminum be damned i'll go for the TATTOO for all the points listed above. I know that we *will* make our money 10 times over as we have with our RED #40. But after the fame and glory of being an early adopter subsides, all Im saying is that there will be lots of 'unreducated' people out there who may not want to work with one of those 'beta' cameras.


But as you say by making your money back "10" times over - surely you'll be able to reinvest 1/10 of that toward the purchase of a typical production run epic. In which case you'll be able to service both types of customers (liberals & conservatives alike).

[Emery Wells]

If you've made your money 10x over, why would you even care? Buy one that looks more conventional, and either run it into the ground shooting for yourself or for your own productions, or put it on a shelf next to a magic lantern or Edison phonograph....It is a no brainer, if that's indeed the case.

Did any part of my post indicate I was having trouble deciding? :) All things being equal id rather not have a Tattoo Epic sit on a shelf and spend another 28k on a black Epic. I hardly think that will be the case but Im using your example. Since Tattoo and Epic-X are anything but equal, I believe I've clearly stated my case that the advantage falls on the Tattoo side. This thread was started to get peoples take on the issue, which I can assure you will probably be an issue for *some* clients. Not 6 weeks from now when the Tattoos are the hottest items on the planet, but 6 months from now, a year from now, etc. I can assure you that many decision makers don't obsessively read this board and don't understand they very nuanced RED program. Im a fanboy, im a film maker, and Im also a business owner. Im looking at long as well as short term investment.

[Emery Wells]

But as you say by making your money back "10" times over - surely you'll be able to reinvest 1/10 of that toward the purchase of a typical production run epic. In which case you'll be able to service both types of customers (liberals & conservatives alike).

10x over in 2 years when all REDs were 'equal.' We had one of the first cams in NYC (#40). Hell our position in the market has allowed me to launch and expand a very successful company. Having early access was a HUGE advantage but it's also been a very wise long term investment.

I might be digging myself into a hole here guys. I love the Tattoo program, im not putting it down. Im opening it up to intelligent discussion.

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

I very well see Emery´s point, we too have had people assume on more than one occasion that our red #476 wasn´t as capable as newer reds, and it´s my only concern about TATTOO. (Beside my main concern that I am way too behind in line to qualify.)

HOWEVER, thinking about it practically: I have a note on my website and I notify all costumers that a lower number RED is equal techincal to the later models, that ours has updated audioboard and is true and tested without problems since delivery - and that usually does it. And is someone refuses to listen to that, I really don´t want their business anyway.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I understand you, Emery!

But I think we will be dealing with the "unreducated" masses on multiple issues for some time to come. It won't just be fear of a "beta" camera and there's always something you can do to make your camera black -- remove the aluminum pieces and have them anodized your color of choice (or black like everyone else)... Hey, where's Jarred's Sharpie picture? :)

Personally, my biggest two concerns for a TATTOO camera would be:

1> Everyone is going to want to steal this thing.

2> If my world goes to hell in a handbasket and I need to sell, it's of no real value except to collectors since ownership and support of a TATTOO can't be transferred.

That said, I'll gladly throw my hat into the ring for a TATTOO. However, at #1110, I don't see it happening. Therefore I'm a Stage-2 guy. Stage-2 makes the most sense for me because I have been "this close" > . < to purchasing a second RED for the past year. Now I have an upgrade option where I get my Epic-X and keep my RED One with an upgraded sensor.

[Meryem Ersoz]

not trying to pick on you, Emery, but I'm just a little stunned at the questions that are generally being asked...can we have an extra feature? i really need to know how many before I commit...etc.

All of us want our cameras to be the best possible investment, but it does seem like the pros so far exceed the cons, that I'm surprised this is even worth discussing...and judging from the deafening silence in response to these repeated questions, it would appear that RED doesn't seem too eager to engage it, either. From their perspective, I can see why...this is a huge opportunity.

Best of luck with your TATTOO, we are all excited for those of you who are in the position to enter the program and will benefit tremendously, no doubt, from your participation...my huge thanks goes out to everyone who takes that fork in the road.

[Gunleik Groven]

I'd love to be tattooed...

No reservations.

If I was eligble, I'd really try to get that funded.

I think the pros far outnumber any cons, and I'll still have my one...

[Emery Wells]

not trying to pick on you, Emery, but I'm just a little stunned at the questions that are generally being asked...can we have an extra feature? i really need to know how many before I commit...etc.

All of us want our cameras to be the best possible investment, but it does seem like the pros so far exceed the cons, that I'm surprised this is even worth discussing...and judging from the deafening silence in response to these repeated questions, it would appear that RED doesn't seem too eager to engage it, either. From their perspective, I can see why...this is a huge opportunity.

Best of luck with your TATTOO, we are all excited for those of you who are in the position to enter the program and will benefit tremendously, no doubt, from your participation...my huge thanks goes out to everyone who takes that fork in the road.

Meryem, this is hardly a request for that one extra feature, nor it is it a complaint, bitch, or moan because it wasn't exactly how *I* envisioned it. I also find those posts laughable. This is a discussion on what the rest of the community thinks about these aluminum bodies and how people will perceive these bodies (good or bad) 6 months or a year from now. It hardly needs to be said that these programs (all 3 of them) are pretty insanely mind blowing and I've stated as such. I have no idea if we will be selected to get a Tattoo, but I sure hope they call on us.

We've lived RED on the bleeding edge since day 1. I signed up on the spot the second I found out I could get in line because I believe in REDs vision and the integrity of the people behind it. I was at the first Red community day with Shawn Nelson, Gibby, Mike Seymour, and Mark Pederson where Jim gave us all his cell and begged us to use it if we encountered any problems. I was shooting with build 6 or whatever it was that Stuart emailed to us the night we left Lake Forest. We've lived with RED and operated a business that supports the production and post for major advertising brands like Nike, Coke, Target, Pfizer, etc. So I have very intimate knowledge of how RED operates and this is by no means a petty gripe or complaint. If it was I would be in the complaint department.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Once more unto the breach.

Cheers - #19

[Meryem Ersoz]

then best of luck with your request for a more conventional body, Emery. I sincerely hope it works out to your advantage.

[Tim Whitcomb]

Right there with you Emery, I posed this question in different wording on the main Oct 30th feedback thread a few minutes ago.

Also it doesn't matter if they are better or not, it's the perception that matters. It'd be cool if Red made them better in some tangible way, so a producer could be like 'Oh, this is the module that has that extra frame rate..."

Shawn- premium sensor material, sounds to me, like the droid you are looking for :)

[Emery Wells]

then best of luck with your request for a more conventional body, Emery. I sincerely hope it works out to your advantage.

Never even asked for it. :) Just wanted to get a reading of the rest of the community.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Guys,

Epic Tattoo is RED controlled beta program.

As that said RED is going to choose who is appropriate for the test between the current RED1 owners (starting from #6 to #7000)

but also if some of Hollywood guys who never been R1 owners before want to try out Epic Tattoo privately or

even to use in a real production of course they will get EPIC TATTOO immediately and directly from RED without any conditions...(no rentals)...

To have some of "celebrities" as a TATTOO or beta testers it's such a normal in business like this and it is a part of advertising for a brand new product.

Later EPIC TATTOOS are going to reach a very high price also because that have almost quality like a handmade product...

[Zakaree Sandberg]

PRO- your camera will be paid off within MONTHS

[David Dennis]

Shawn- premium sensor material, sounds to me, like the droid you are looking for :)

Alas, you can't get premium sensor material because these are beta test cameras - they have to be used to test with exactly the same hardware and software as will eventually be released.

It seems obvious to me that the Tattoo beta program will be way oversubscribed, so I don't see RED needing to add new benefits anyway. The early access and collector-grade hardware seems like sufficient incentive for most.

D

[Tim Whitcomb]

Alas, you can't get premium sensor material because these are beta test cameras - they have to be used to test with exactly the same hardware and software as will eventually be released.

It seems obvious to me that the Tattoo beta program will be way oversubscribed, so I don't see RED needing to add new benefits anyway. The early access and collector-grade hardware seems like sufficient incentive for most.

D

HUH? Please take more time to read these boards before posting.
Your opinion is contrary to information readily available on all these current threads from both Jim and Jarred.
Save I think you are correct in assuming Stage 1 will be filled quickly.

Thanks.

[Jason Diamond]

I agree with what you're saying Emery as far as "Unreducated" people not understanding the overall "transparency" of RED and how they take advantage of an Educated Professional userbase to help guide the product(s) to what the end user will want/need without wasting Dev Cycles.
That being said I think the overall benefits of having a EPIC-X TATTOO in the limited pool will outweigh the potential negatives of being in that pool. I think the negatives are fairly easily explained away to any producer worth his/her salt who are seriously interested in that cam as their capture medium of choice.
So basically I agree with you on most of your points and will equally excited when you get inked!

[Nye]

Does anyone feel that a Silver 'Brushed steel' camera will through up problems in terms of being highly reflective, not a good thing on set. Surely there is a good reason for the vast majority of all professional cameras film, video or stills being black or V dark grey. This could be seen as a disadvantage as soon as the 2nd option cameras are available.

[Ryan Damm]

Does anyone feel that a Silver 'Brushed steel' camera will through up problems in terms of being highly reflective, not a good thing on set. Surely there is a good reason for the vast majority of all professional cameras film, video or stills being black or V dark grey. This could be seen as a disadvantage as soon as the 2nd option cameras are available.


There was a thread about this on CML (not specific to the Red, but to white cameras -- some other startup had showed renders of a white camear body).

There have been lots of non-black camera bodies in the past. One example was all the Mitchell 35mm cameras used in the nuclear tests by the government (I guess black cameras would've gotten a little hot). Also, look at all the Canon pro lenses -- they're off gray to avoid thermal expansion problems.

In truth, if you hate the brushed aluminum, or are having reflection problems (brushed = diffuse reflections at least), there's always gaff tape. (I've already got a fair amount of tape on my R1.)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Does anyone feel that a Silver 'Brushed steel' camera will through up problems in terms of being highly reflective, not a good thing on set. Surely there is a good reason for the vast majority of all professional cameras film, video or stills being black or V dark grey. This could be seen as a disadvantage as soon as the 2nd option cameras are available.

...No one seems to complain about those white cameras from Panavision.

If I were offered a TATTOO, I would gladly accept. Even if it were lime green. Actually, I really like the tumbled "bare" aluminum look. Although, I really like the color and finish on the RED RAM units. That dark grey with the textured finish is great.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

ID like a light grey/white body for epic x

[Shane Betts]

I see your concern Emery but I think that, by the time this situation rolls around, that TATTOO will be paid for (and then some) and will have pride of place in a glass case in your foyer, alongside the Red One body you elected to hang on to because you couldn't bear to trade it in.

I'd actually like to see slightly different colour schemes for all the cameras in the 1,2 & 3 schemes. Aluminium for stage 1, light grey for stage 2, battleship grey or gunmetal for stage 3 then back to basic black for all the rest. I'm sure I'm not the only one with a high serial R1 envious that it doesn't have it's name etched into the side.

[Vladimir Eugene]

Emery,

It sounds like you're wanting the TATTOO for the same reason your being skeptical about it's long term impression.

Just like the the early RED1's, that's what everyone wanted. That's why you made 10x fold on them. The same reason, some may have thought later- wait a minute, " Let's go with a later model- just to be safe."

Same goes here- you want the TATTOO. Wow, that's what everyone want's and only a few have it, but not the later, let's consider going with a flushed out version. The early reward, without the possible later backlash. The possible tail end is so minimal compared to the early side

I'm guessing the Silver color is no mistake. In case any should go and advertise/misinterpret it as a finished product to a production company, there should be plenty who will recognize- hey- those are prototypes, a work in progress.

There's a chance changes will be made- like the X program that you and I participated in. At that point, you could probably choose to blend in with all the others. However, I suspect you're clients will still know you are an earlier model Epic-X, just like my clients know- silver or not.