Opinions on RED

[Steve Gibby]

In analyzing an individual’s motion media industry opinion, or a tech board’s collective opinion on a subject I always ask myself:

What is the breadth and depth of their background?

Opinions are like noses, everybody has one. Opinions from inexperienced individuals can be amazingly accurate at times – if they have the ability to analyze all the factors of a subject closely and then deduct logical, non-emotional conclusions. Beyond that though, someone who has that analytical ability, and also has extensive real-world experience to filter that through, will generally be able to put forth an experienced opinion. I say “generally”, because many experienced individuals get to a point where they feel that they have all the answers, and at that point their accumulation of new data to form opinions with ceases. In analyzing many of the virulent anti-RED posts on some other tech forums, one thought keeps popping into my mind: “Are these open-minded people who are current on RED, or closed minded people who are protecting their turf, kits, and workflows?” Usually my conclusion is that they personify the latter of the two. Bottom line: nobody has all the answers, technology and workflows are dynamic, not static, and developing a closed mind is extremely dangerous to someone’s professional livelihood. The motion media industry is progressively becoming more Darwinian: either evolve or earmark yourself for professional extinction.

Do they have turf to protect? If so, do their posts reflect protectionism?

Even the most experienced persons can suffer from bouts of protectionism, reflected in quick judgments that dismiss emerging technology and workflows as “vaporware”, with that reaction largely fueled by an inherent human nature resistance to change that will affect their comfort zone. Established veterans (I’m one of those age wise at 59), tend to personify this reaction with attitudes of: “I’ve always done it this way, I’ve been successful, and if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!”. Newcomers to the industry and to those forums can get caught up in the flow of simply agreeing with the established veterans position because they look up to these guys, and they also hope to work with them at some point – so rocking the boat will bring harsh criticism from their heroes, and possibly preclude them from interning with them.

-------------------------------------------------

Keep in mind that my perspective is one of an established veteran who has worked and now works nationally in a variety of skill sets in a non-union environment (EP, Producer, director, editor, DP, cinematographer, videographer) and across multiple genres of EFP and cine style production. I do not work in narrative cinema – but I do work in about every other genres of production that RED One is capable of being used in.

I’d like to make a few observations:

Is the RED One camera system worth owning, or should it be viewed as simply an occasional rental item?

Many of my contemporary DPs and cinematographers have traditionally not owned camera systems, and simply rented equipment as needed, or used, after giving their input, what was supplied to them by the producers that hire them. Throughout my career I’ve approached that differently, because in the non-union environment I’ve worked in I consistently spread my skill sets to be proficient in every above the line and below the line position. I was also working on a lot of mobile non-hardlined EFP productions that required delivering productions that looked like they had a big budget and crew – but had small to mid-sized budgets and small, mobile crews. Thus my view of equipment evolved into one of: “Own what I’ll use regularly, and rent the rest on a per-project basis." I still operate in that philosophy, and it is my approach to RED One, especially since RED One, its lenses, and accessories are so affordable in comparison to other high-end capable camera systems. I’ll still rent the odd lens/accessory on an as-needed, per-project basis.

Is RED One a magic bullet that will automatically put any adopter’s career into “warpdrive”?

In a short word: “no”. RED One is an enabling technology that, in the hands of the right person, will be capable of a shooting in a wide variety of formats, setups, and parameters across a broad array of cine style and EFP style production genres. But to reach it’s maximum potential end product and usage, RED One will still require from users what I’ve previously posted as the “Four T’s”: Talent, Training, Technology, Tenacity. A person is born with Talent, spends time in Training, learns about and adopts Technology, and learns to have Tenacity. Early in my career I had a high-level, but closed-minded and elitist attitude producer criticize my open-minded approach to technology and workflows with a warning of: “Remember Gibby – the cream rises to the top”. Being quick at comebacks, as I walked out the door refusing the job that was offered, I turned back to him, smiled, and said: “And you remember this - crap floats”.

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End notes
Being a ground floor adopter of RED One I’ve seen the full spectrum of reactions to RED. I applaud those veteran DPs and cinematographers like Dave Mullen and others who keep open minds and evolve with the industry. To the others, I’d say: “Life is full of choices - and we either enjoy the benefits of, or suffer the consequences of our choices.” I’m happy with the professional choices I’ve made throughout my career, and I’m also happy with my choice to be a ground floor adopter of RED One. I’ve spent a lot of time over the past two years explaining my reasons for my early adoption of RED One. I’ve had a lot of “tennis matches” with people who took pot shots at me for my opinions. That’s water off a duck’s back. The time for verbal tennis is nearly over. The cameras will deliver shortly and then there will be paradigm shifts to where those of us who adopt RED One can let our craft results do our talking for us. The proof of concept will be in field-testing on real-world productions. A long time ago I quit “playing tennis” with closed minded veterans and their sycophants on cinematography boards, because there are only so many hours in a workday, and the actual proving or disproving of RED One will be in field-testing on real-world productions. The testing of RED One prototype camera systems by Jackson, Soderbergh, Bekmambatov, and Charters has revealed a fascinating glimpse of RED One’s potential – but in about 10 days the field use of RED One by hordes of cine and EFP adopters will commence. The first cameras will have limited features for awhile, but by October/November when significantly more features are added in, and a lot of us adopters have put RED One through it’s paces, the true impact of RED One on the motion media industry will begin to become apparent. IMO that’s the cathartic juncture where the validity of someone’s longtime position on RED One, whether it be naysaying, fanboy, or any degree in between, will have a profound potential effect on the future direction and productivity of their career. IMO RED One, with all its formats/lens combinations/scalability/cine + EFP capability has the potential not just be another tool in kits, but the "go-to" tool in my kit, at the expense of the others I’ve traditionally used in my work. We’ll know shortly…

Let’s give respect to everyone, contribute to the common good, keep open minds, and everyone do their part to further the aesthetic and creative boundaries of the motion media industry. RED is about to deliver a very capable new tool for our toolboxes. We’re all members of the motion media family of contributors. Looking forward, let’s spend our time exploring the possibilities of the RED One camera system, with positive energy and mindsets.

[JustinGD]

After reading that, I am ready to embark on an incredible career in the motion picture industry or win the superbowl. Either way, great post Gibby.

[Stephen Webb]

Opinions are like noses, everybody has one.

That's a very polite way of putting it :blink:

[Steve Gibby]

That's a very polite way of putting it :blink:

LOL...! Yeah, I've heard some other analogies using other than noses...:biggrin:

[Emmanuel Cambier]

:love: How can this man get better everytime…

[Stephen Williams]

opinions are like @$$holes, everyone has one, and everyones stinks


i like that ANALogy

Hi,

"everyone has one & most of them stink"

Stephen

[Steve Gibby]

It would be cool if the body parts threadjacking ceased and the professional observations continued...

I have a sense of humor like anyone else, and love to laugh/joke, but my thread starting post contained a lot more substance than a reference to noses/opinions....

:wacko:

[Jay A. Kelley]

Gibby,

I don't think the body parts gig is a result of highjacking. It's a result of bordem Your post is excellent and well written, but contains no new information. (We are very well aware of your carreer and past accomplishments from other posts you've made. We are also aware of various opinions on the camera as we have all lived through it by now). This is not being critical of you, it's simply that we've run the table and there's nothing left to say that has not been covered in one way or another.

The users are restless, I've noticed this a couple of times on here where things get to a point, and the posts dive.

Another factor is that there are still hundreds of unanswered questions that, I assume will not come to light until the camera is released.

I.E. Warrenty, technical support, repair turnaround, etc.

As you have said, the time for talk (On most subjects regarding RED) is almost over and it's time to shoot. While RED has moved VERY QUICKLY, it's felt like forever and I believe people are more than ready to move on.

I personally look forward to you getting your camera and posting some images on here.. I know you will make us proud.

Jay

[Sean R.]

I have been a lurker on this site since about Feb. 07, and I have enjoyed and learned from many of your posts Gibby. I think one of the main things that needs to be recognized here is the reality-check that was desperately needed for a lot of users that I hope you helped provide. I understand that the tension has grown intolerable for a lot, but faith must be sustained in order for a positive flow of information to grow.

There is a reason why we are all so impressed with the abilty of RED One and we can all only imagine what kind of work must go in to enabling these camera's abilities. So we must stay patient, we must stay faithful, we must remain civil and respectful. Great work Gibby and very well said.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Opinions are sometimes like noise, a lot of noise.

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


:innocent:

[Zakaree Sandberg]

sorry gibby.. exactly what Jay said.. your post was awesome.. im just BORRRED right now

[Adam Jeal]

Thanks for this post Gibby. As you point out 'Technology and workflows are dynamic, not static'. I'm always a bit peeved by arguments that go along the lines of: ' It's the talent behind the camera, not the tools..' this comment is fine in itself, but it has been used time and time again by people who are willing to dismiss Red out of hand.

Of course talent is important. My point is that if you put a tool like the Red one into the hands of talented and tenacious individuals, it will change things. Or maybe I should say enable things.

As far as I can tell, the majority of the bile directed at Red seems to emanate from those either in the film industry or those who wish they were. As someone who works largely in film, this saddens me but it doesn’t surprise me at all. The film industry is very, very conservative. Those who work in the broadcast and corporate sectors generally seem to be enthusiastic towards Red and seem un-threatened by the possibilities it offers.

I myself have always been fascinated by process and it is 'the doing' that I love. I believe that every single part of filmmaking/content creating and every actor/crew member are of equal importance and respect.

Some time back, Briferg said some words to the effect of 'Now is the best time ever to be making films and it will get better and better in the next few years.' I really believe this to be the case and I am looking forward to some exciting projects in 2008.

All the best,

[Alexander Nikishin]

Our goal should be to have an opinion which is strong yet silent.

No words are needed, just pick up a RED, shoot, and watch the competition lay choking on their words as the smoke settles.

[Eryc Tramonn]

This is all in line with what I was saying on another post. Talk is friggin' cheap. Even you Gibby, seem to mirror what I was alluding to on the other thread. There's been enough talk to sort out almost every scenario and concern imaginable for RED. At a certain point, you have to release it to continue the growth process. Let's not fall into a "paralysis by analysis" rut.

The time of reckoning is upon us. I have a very capable pair of hands, and am anxious to get this tool into them. If the camera sucks, everyone is going to say so. If the camera is the grail it appears to be, then that will come out too. Ultimately though, no matter what the camera amounts to, the end results will largely be in the hands of the operators.

I'm sure it won't be completely exempt from problems, but it appears to have one hell of a head start.

There just doesn't seem to be much else to be said at this point. Release the camera.

[Sean R.]

Serial numbers 1-50 August 31st (50 units)
Serial numbers 51-100 September 15th (50 units)
Serial numbers 101-300 October 10th (200 units)
Serial numbers 301- 700 November 10th (400 units)
Serial numbers 701- 1200 December 10th (500 units)
Serial numbers 1201- 1700 January 10th (500 units)
Serial numbers 1701- 2200 February 10th (500 units)
Serial numbers 2201- 2700 March 10th (500 units)
Serial numbers 2701- 3400 April 10th (700 units)
Serial numbers 3401- 4100 May 10th (700 units)

Dates are sublect to change.

I'm pretty sure RED is still sticking the game plan.

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks for the kind words guys...

RED has already said that the initital batches of shipping cameras won't have all their eventual features enabled. That means that comprehensive user feedback on those cameras will be comensurately limited. The September user feedback with be valuable for sure, but I would guess that by October sometime, when most of the features in the shipped cameras have been upgraded by RED (via firmware, etc.) that is the point that we'll see a lot more meaningful user impressions posted. That said, I think it is wisdom for RED to release the first batches of cameras, even though they won't have all their eventual features. I'm sure those of us using them before the upgrades will be more than happy to give our impressions of using the features that are available on the cameras - and that feedback will be helpful to both RED and to those waiting to use a RED One camera system.

[Sean R.]

I completely agree Gibby. I don't think anyone of the first 50 will turn down the "incomplete features" camera. At this point most just want to get their camera in hand and acquire some images. We've seen what Peter Jackson did with a camera that was not fully feature enabled and we all have to remember that camera was one of the first prototypes. RED One has come a long way since then, so any footage shot will be impressive and exciting.

I know we all want to sample the goods for ourselves and like Gibby said the feedback that RED will recieve is imperative to progression.

[Rocco Schult]

Gibby, you've been posting a lot.
And true, its difficult to answer to that.

I read too much of what you've been doing in your life and clippings from the forum (you sounded just too much businessman than to have time to collect and catalogize all of that), and too often I didn't feel the value for me.
This shall not sound respectless, its just what I felt.

But this one is not only pristine writing (as most of them are), it sums it good up, being very positive (as you always are!) and therefore being one of the best writings of yours and even more appreciated.

[I Bloom]

Hey Gibby,

I don't think the post is boring. I think you are addressing a very core issue that this forum should be addressing. I'd like to spin it another way just for the sake of argument and self exploration.

How well can one be truly objective in this matter once one has made the commitment to invest in this product. Or in other words, is there a valid criticism of the Redheads floating amongst all the FUD that we are missing because we are so excited. Is RED a good investment? Is it the right team to play on?

I had an experience this weekend where I brought up RED on the CMLIndie mail listserv, in response to a filmmaker who asked how important it was for him to shoot his indie feature on 35mm. There were a voices on either side, until a few tempers flared and one of my friends was censured by the moderators (maybe he'll speak to what actually happened). I agreed with his points but it also made me take a step back. I get uncomfortable with the amount of zeal expressed by others and frankly myself. It reminds me of a mind state that has in the past lead me to make some bad choices:

I'm a technology hound and a dreamer. I have in the past made some investments in startup companies that went under. I almost always made those investments based on an emotional connection to the ideas of the company. I don't regret any of them, but they did force me to become a smarter investor.

With RED many of us are proposing basing our entire livelyhood around a startup technology that has no track record, a gargantuan risk. I think everyone should admit it. In this business you sometimes just need to be on the winning team.

So strip away the technology and talk about the company. I did some reading on Jim and discovered that in addition to being a great designer he is a great marketer. He is using a number of different strategies to achieve deep market penetration with RED.

His alliance with Jarred the proprieter of DVXUser allowed for the creation of this community, a powerful motivating tool. I felt real emotional weight from Mark Thorpe's recent post. Like running up the beach at Normandy and the guy next to you falls.

The community also allows them, and this is strong and important, to communicate directly with their customers. They include them in their business in a way that might more resemble stock holders than people in a checkout line.

The reservation list, with each reservation given a number, also creates exclusivity. You have a position in line, a golden ticket to the candy factory (I think its actually titanium). You wouldn't sell it for the world. Others know about it. It creates uncertainty and a feeling of being left behind for those on the outside... buzz. I don't know if this was intentional, but it's working.

Steven Soderbergh is wearing a RED on his shoulder like Andre Agassi warming up for a match in a pair of Oakleys. PJ's throwing down a slam dunk on "Crossing" like Jordan from the freethrow line in New Zealand. I expect a growing list of other film superstars throwing a RED on their head. So to speak.

I'm sure Jim has many other cards up his sleeve that I can't even dream of.

It's extremely powerful emotional and viral marketing at work. Even if I'm caught up in it, I think that this great marketing may also be working in all of our favor because it's also working on our potential customers.

I admire greatly Jim's tenacity, forethought, and raw business talent. The stuff he designs also looks cool as s--t. (That might be another on my list of marketing strategies.)

So I'll take another step back. If some of my poor decisions in the past were made because I have a technology fetish, and I ignore the bottom line, than just based on RED's business practices am I joining the right team. I'm going to say yes. But I'm watching myself carefully and doing my best to remain objective and keep doing my homework. And I will continue to do so even if and after I purchase the camera.

Gibby I really appreciate your posts. Just for the sake of gambit, I'd like to see if you can find an argument for the other side.

Ian Bloom

[ZzzZZz...]

I have a feeling that this might be one of gibbys last rants, in the old spirit... So I will grab the chance to express my gratitude for your elaborate postings. In the beginning I found them a bit annoying and selfcentered, but slowly they grew on me, when I realised what you where fighting for.
You kept the snob and the selfish dp in their place, and kept an ideal of making the best camera for everybody, instead of cheering in the me, me, me crowd. This maintained a good spirit, and united the diverse crowd of future red owners.

I am just starting out, and I want to shoot documentaries with my Red One, and if it wasn´t for you I might be looking at an hpx right now instead. Now, I know what I want, and I am very excited about the additional aestetic options red entails.
Keep on rocking... ZzzZZz... (ill change my username when red ships:ohmy: )

[Jay A. Kelley]

So no one misunderstands.. I did not say we were bored with Gibby's post. I simply meant we were very ready to shoot. That's all.

Jay

[Steve Gibby]

So no one misunderstands.. I did not say we were bored with Gibby's post. I simply meant we were very ready to shoot. That's all.

Jay

No worries Jay, I didn't take it that way. It's all good... :biggrin:

[Steve Gibby]

Ian,

I think you expressed your self very well. I’m sure those concerns have gone through the minds of many of us as we approached the “should I adopt or not adopt” fork in the road with RED One. I think an important factor is that we’re out there searching for emerging tools that will have potential for not only our existing workspace and genres, but also allow vertical and horizontal growth in ourselves.

I think passion is the operative word here. Jim Jannard has passion, thus he embarked on the RED journey when he really didn’t have to. We all have passion in our work, that’s why we’re searching for exciting new tools for it. If someone new to this industry doesn’t have passion for it, they’re in the wrong industry. Many times it is that passion, in the form of belief in yourself and your projects, that is the only thing that keeps you going – especially when it seems like everyone around you, family, friends, and associates can’t seem to understand your dreams.

I also believe that someone needs to be decisive and opinionated to have the best chance of realizing their goals in this industry – and I don’t mean opinionated in a headstrong, rigid way, but rather being able to analyze new data, form an educated opinion on how and if it can be integrated into their workflow, and then take a stand on which way to go for their own situation. If we are to succeed up to a high level in this industry, decisiveness and the ability to form definite opinions are key tools to that success.

Risk and return are inversely connected in any industry: risk little and generally we stand to lose little, but also gain little. Risk a lot, and we stand to potentially lose a lot, but also to gain a lot. I really believe that nobody rises to the top of any profession without being somewhat of a risk taker – IMO it’s just one of the necessary elements in the pathway to progressing.

We’re all born with right brain lobes and left brain lobes. The left brain houses our logical and pragmatic abilities, and the right brain contains our creative and emotional abilities. By nature some of us are inherently overbalanced in the use of our right or left brain usage. Some people test out as mid-brain people, able to split the difference, and freely migrate between left brain pragmatic analysis and right brain creativity. I believe the mid brain people have the easiest pathway to success in the motion media industry, because let’s face it, well-developed ability on both lobes has a higher potential to enable progress. That’s certainly not to say that someone who is weighted heavily in one lobe or the other can’t succeed heavily if they really apply them selves to overcoming their shortcomings, or sometimes better yet, surround themselves with associates who have strengths that symbiotically enhance their weaknesses. Anyone can succeed if they have enough talent, training, technology, and tenacity – and apply themselves to overcome their weaknesses.

Let’s bring this into the context of RED. Is the RED One camera a perfect fit for everyone, and should everyone adopt RED One? No to both questions – some work in very limited genre workflows that don’t align well with RED One’s technology, and there is no such thing as a perfect fit for someone when they work in a broad array of genres. Will RED One be a very capable camera system for a broad range of cine style and EFP style production genres? Yes. Will there be a learning curve for everyone who adopts RED One? Yes – some short, some medium, some long. Will RED One be capable and affordable enough that it finally makes sense to own a high-end camera system? Yes. Will RED One be capable of generating significant revenue for it’s owners and pay for itself rapidly? Yes – if those owners know or learn this industry well and keep their camera systems busy.

Ian, you made some observations on Jannard’s marketing strategies, but the time approaches when the camera system must stand on it’s own merits in the hands of the purchasing and renting adopters. I think the quality of the samples RED has supplied us (Crossing the Line, etc) and comments from respected industry individuals (Jackson, Charters, etc.), are indications that RED hasn’t just “talked the talk” but has “walked the walk”. That was Jannard’s modus operandi at Oakley and I never expected him to lessen his expectations for RED. I expect the newly shipping cameras to have a few minor glitches here and there, something that is natural for electronics, but I expect that those minor challenges will be fixed rapidly, the firmware upgrades to roll out fairly quickly, and the cameras, lenses, and accessories to be of very good quality. If you analyze Jannard’s past business success, it has been built around strict quality control in tandem with good customer service – and I just don’t see him demanding any less of RED.

I hope this sheds a little more light on my feelings about what you posted Ian. What’s cool is that everyone in the RED User community is important – there is a good symbiosis in this community.

I’d like to offer my respect to everyone here. Go get you dreams! Make ‘em happen! In a sense, one person’s success with RED One is everyone’s success.

( Thanks for the kind words ZzzZZz and others, much appreciated...)

[Emanuel A.]

Good job Steve.

[SalaTar]

Myself to RED,
Stop:
"Pumping, bantering, speculating, teasing, advertising"
and PRODUCE.
We all know it worked at DVHEXUSer for the HVX200 but it gets old

[mezmo]

Hi Gibby,
Camera's like Red and SI, systems like FCP,AP,AE are going to help
bring in a new generation of film makers. This is the real revolution
now and on towards the end of the decade. The ability to produce a
high quality master then release in any format of your choice
at low cost is a NEW thing. In the past formats like DV/HDV have
given newbie film makers a taste for the business but lacked the
quality leap needed for serious mutiscreen duplication and release.
Shooting Bayer @ 2.35:1 in 2/4k will have a considerable impact on
the existing industry.Will it harm it, will it change it, who cares.
The thing is a whole bunch of new film makers will have the tools to
do things in a new way.
This is a great thing, the posts here from people making cheap indie films
are fantastic. Bring it on, we desperatly need some new talent and ideas
in places like the US film industry.
Some of the best films are American indie films made a decade or so
ago by guys now firmly entrenched in the established industry producing
the usual LA crap.
We need to remove some "dead wood " in all parts of the industry and
bring in a new generation of film makers with distribution/exhibition
idea's that provide decent returns to the people who MADE the film.
All this is possible and potentially the most interesting thing about a camera
like Red and other new emerging digital systems.
If people want to use something like Red or SI to shoot EFP and keep the
potential for bigger productions, fine, go for it, but the real potential for a
camera like Red is the production of program material in order to reach a
mass theatricial audience at a cost that can be realised by new emerging indie film makers.
This rant from a 57year oldie. Cheers Mezmo

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Gibby, Ian... Great posts, guys.

[Shawn Nelson]

Thanks for the post Gibby, I enjoyed it.

[planet e]

With RED many of us are proposing basing our entire livelyhood around a startup technology that has no track record, a gargantuan risk.

ian speaks the elephant in the room.

if this camera is an investment (or a trade, for that matter...), it should be treated by some of the cardinal rules of smart investing. i may not be the best shooter in the field, but i'd hold my trading and investing track record up against almost anyone's (well, maybe not jim jannard, but anyone else!). i paid off my first RED camera trading canon stock. still sitting on the winnings, watching it swell slowly, gently in a money market, while i wait for Christmas delivery on my RED.

the number one rule of trading and investing.....

money flows from the impatient to the patient.

there's a lot of impatience on these boards! and where there is a critical mass of impatience, usually massive opportunity follows. the trick is knowing how to follow the direction of the flow....

if, on the other hand, the camera is just a camera, then the owner will have true freedom.

just a tiny shift in perception changes the entire game.

[I Bloom]

Steve,

I had my first real contact today about a RED production. Its an exciting prospect, but also extremely daunting. I need to get all these other format productions out of the pipeline before my camera ships. And I'm worried about the workflow and the question mark sign under how much investment is needed in new computer gear to support the camera.

I think in fact that you and I are mostly in agreement but I tend to speak in subterfuge so just let me summarize my original post:

-We can't be truly objective, and the opposing point of view is not well represented in this space.
-Zeal is not always the recipe for good decisions.
-We need to match our passion with acumen.
-We need to recognize the risk not dismiss it.
-I observe many brilliant marketing strategies being implemented by Jim. Some are strong echoes of his Oakley days (which bodes well).
-This marketing and the business philosophy of RED stand on their own, essentially in addition to the technology. Even if RED was producing HVX200's this might be a reason to switch.
-With all this in mind. I don't want to take the blue pill or the RED pill just yet, I want to sit here and continue my conversation with Laurence Fishburne.

So in my own strange way I'm trying to make a positive argument toward aligning with RED as a company not as a technology. But I'm also saying its not helpful to approach this from the point of view of always finding new ways to justify our shared oppinion. I think its often more helpful to criticize your own oppinions and punch holes in your own point of view in the same way that a good chess player attempts to play out their opponents side of the game as well as their own. That's my gambit, in asking you to try and argue for the other side. I realize that for reasons of friendship it's probably not appropriate. I should refrain from holding out hoops for others to jump through. I apologize.


Ian, you made some observations on Jannard’s marketing strategies, but the time approaches when the camera system must stand on it’s own merits in the hands of the purchasing and renting adopters. I think the quality of the samples RED has supplied us (Crossing the Line, etc) and comments from respected industry individuals (Jackson, Charters, etc.), are indications that RED hasn’t just “talked the talk” but has “walked the walk”.


An unspoken assumption of my earlier post is that the technology is there. There is no question about this for me. Likewise, I wouldn't characterize any of Jim's marketing strategies as "talk", I think they are bids to shake up an entrenched market with more than just test charts and specs. They all seem built on the foundation of a quality product and service.

But RED does have competition. If it's going to be the winning team than this marketing is very important, a strong foothold is part of its long term success. This is all worth our mention and discussion.

I want to stress that there is really deep respect here, for all those involved. Yourself especially, Jim and Jarred. I could learn volumes from the experience that you have both in the industry and outside.

I think this particular thread is not a debate, it's a conversation. One I'd like to continue with you, over the coming months.

My genes code for a gadfly. A character who has a penchant to confront the underlying assumptions of the culture. I would argue that if those traits weren't sometimes valuable to the survival of the whole tribe, they would have been weeded out of the gene pool long ago.

IBloom

[ZzzZZz...]

What I hope for red one is that it prooves itself to be the one last thing that changed the psychology of "meeting-up-with-investors" or "seeking-public- funding". With the knowledge of this camera, workflow, editing and all kinds of distribution channels, the hard working man is gonna know that he can realise his creative idea through blood, sweat and tears, and some savings, without the devastating qualitative disadvantage of bad equipment... and the producers are gonna feel that he knows it.
If he is determined it is not a question of "to be or not to be?" but simply when, how, with who, and how much?

[Matthew Lochman]

This camera will put film and Gibby's everywhere out of style...
for better or worse...

[johnkersten]

Movements in art and culture happen when things change, we all know this. When the great depression hit in the '30s, people stopped spending money on records and consequently were more inclined toward toward the big-band and swing music they could see for cheap. The filmmakers of the French New Wave were adolescents during the Nazi occupation, and seeing American/British films after the war gave them new ideas.

When sound recording was invented for use with film, we started making different films. When cameras stopped being thousand-pound noisemakers, films changed again.

Old news, I know.

I think the reason many people get nervous about RED One is because it represents a decisive blow to our notion of filmmaking. RED One, IMO, represents the fruition of the idea of two-suitcase filmmaking. (In one suitcase is a camera, in the other suitcase is a laptop, and presumably, some hard disks and a pair of headphones.) It's hard to talk about Film vs. Digital these days without talking about RED One.

If we look at the history of film (or the history of art, for that matter) we'll see that with every technological leap comes a dramatically different way in which people think about and therefore make films. People are getting nervous about all this digital production and online viewing- I suppose they should be. The independent film movement dramatically changed not just films but the people who make them (and God bless 'em), and that was before DV.

Once some format standards finally emerge, I'm pretty sure we're going to see an entirely new concept about filmmaking, and I think that the reason people are nervous about technology is because we have no idea what that approach is really going to be, and nobody wants to be left behind. Hell, I'm in my early 20s and it tickles me.

Psychologically, RED represents the confirmation that these changes are indeed coming, which IMO is why people are arguing so much about it. The camera itself (due to all the buzz) is also something tangible that people can hate on if they're vehemently against digital cinematography.

I'm not a professional or anything, I'm just a very intrigued student. If anything here does or doesn't make sense I'd love to know it. Gibby, I liked your post.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I think it definitely makes a huge difference in the quality of images that independent filmmakers will except in the future. I've seen a fair number of low budget films shot on MiniDV and most are pretty pathetic. I can't say they would have all been better had they been shot on film, or something like the RED, but the overall presentation would have been more professional. I'm immediately distracted from something when the image quality looks terrible. There's a certain film I'm thinking of and can't mention because I know the director, but basically it had some good production design, good makeup and even some decent special effects for a very low budget film (about $40,000 I was told), but I swear it looks like they filmed it on a 1 CCD camera. I'm gathering whoever shot it wasn't very professional because it is possible to make miniDV look at least ok, but I think if the film were shot on the RED I'd have been immediately more favorably disposed to what I was seeing. Instead my first thought was, "My god... the image quality is awful, I've seen home videos that look better than this." That made me biased before I even saw the story unfold. I think the story was just alright, it wasn't that special, but it had some potential and with higher production values it would have been much more watchable. As I said some of the production values were good, but the image quality just killed it for me.

It seems pretty clear to me that the RED One isn't going to matter that much to a film with a $25 million budget and above, except in the way the images are captured. I don't think you'll be able to tell that much that the quality is better than film, less grainy, etc. Because of course film is the standard by which digital gets measured against, so film is capable of very nice images (obviously). But to me the advances lower the entry barrier and for those on the outside looking in especially, that makes a large difference. It's not practical for a small production company like mine to buy a Sony F900 and a full assortment of lenses, batteries, etc. But it is practical to own the RED One and its related accessories. To me, it actually makes quite a large financial difference in the future because assuming even moderate rental revenue (let's say you rent it out just from time to time and make $4,000 per month, pretty meager goal), then eventually that pays for the camera while being able to use it on my own shoots cuts rental costs for me considerably. When I shoot my first feature, which I plan on doing in January 2009, I need a professional quality cinema camera for a minimum of four weeks, and probably a few weeks before for camera tests and whatnot. So instead of having to rent something for six weeks that could end up costing me let's say at least $20,000 or more, even for a good digital package, I can use my own equipment and don't need to factor that into the budget whatsoever as I already own it all. That makes it a lot more feasible to make a film on a micro-budget of $100,000 or less if you already own the most expensive part of an equipment package, arguably.

With a lot of technology available, combined with talented and creative people, it becomes much more possible to make movies or projects in general with smaller budgets that look like bigger budget projects. Let's say a $100,000 feature that could easily pass as a $500,000 feature, or a $10,000 music video that could pass as a $25,000 music video, etc. To the big guys a lot of this doesn't matter that much, because they're dealing with a lot of money and huge audiences. But to smaller filmmakers with small but reliable audiences, it makes projects within reach at a professional level that previously were not. There's no denying that being an independent filmmaker aiming for Hollywood-quality images and editing solutions is much easier today than it was ten years ago.

[Lauri Kettunen]

[B]Let’s give respect to everyone, contribute to the common good, keep open minds, and everyone do their part to further the aesthetic and creative boundaries of the motion media industry.

Yes, this is good advice by Gibby.

All experienced people in business have also been novices at some point in their career. And perhaps, many share the feeling that looking backwards, my first work published was not that great. But, it was a beginning of a path leading to something better.

Several years after my first TV-program was completed I had a chance to ask the person who decided to publish my first work, why did she pick my work among all the others. I never forget what she answered: Well, I liked the story, .... But, among all other factors, I expect professionalism from the independent producers, and believe me, you see here all sort of people, some of them completely out of their mind. Only very few show true professionalism, manage to explain their idea in clear words, and are smart enough to listen for our desires and needs. For this reason I saw potential in you and decided to give you a chance.

---

From the technical point of view I think there are all the reasons to believe RED will be just a marvellous tool. The overall concept behind RED, as well as behind the SI-2K, is very clever, and the use of wavelets makes all the difference. Thinking of it now, it's difficult to understand why the big companies with well recognized names did not pick this route already some time ago. There's not enough background data to take sides on the sensor, but all the images published so far gives the impression the Mysterium is a state-of-the-art sensor.

Otherwise, I can't see good reasons to worry about the success of RED. Perhaps a metaphora with numbers explains my thinking. Nobody of us has ever listed the numbers up to billion. So, somebody could come in and seriously doubt whether you really know all the integers between one and billion. If you say, yes, sure no problem, one will reply, proove it by listing me all those numbers. Then, if you try to be smart and say, ok, give me any number between one and billion and I'll tell you the next one, one still insists, proove it to me, I want the proof. And there you are, there's not much one can do in such a situation.

In my opinion it's just great that RED and SI will enable a larger number of people to make technically high quality films with reasonable budgets. Of course, the final quality of the films will depend also on many other factors, and not the least on the professionalism the RED users will be able to show, including myself.

[I Bloom]

This camera will put film and Gibby's everywhere out of style...
for better or worse...

I'm sorry I think you are either totally wrong or made a huge typo. Either way believe me, Gibby is the model of someone quick to adapt and spend a lot of time thinking through his choices. Because he's constantly willing to change and take risks his experience is an amplifier rather than a burden.

As they say in the rap world, he's about to blow up.

IBloom

[Hrvoje Simic]

It's always a pleasure to read your posts, Gibby.



In analyzing an individual’s motion media industry opinion, or a tech board’s collective opinion on a subject I always ask myself:

What is the breadth and depth of their background?....



Do they have turf to protect? If so, do their posts reflect protectionism?

Mostly fear of the unknown and fear of new generations to come IMHO.
Also, ego has a lot to do with it, because it's common to see experience and achievements affecting it.
That's where the evolution of an individual and his interaction with environment stop.

I've seen a lot of situations where experienced veterans refused to adopt the benefits of digital workflow
even if that ment dramatically slowing down the production, raising costs, and destroying the creative flow of the project.

Having a open mind in this position is something that has enormous effect on many levels,
and this is ability which both you Gibby and the participants of RED project possess.
People recognize that.

Raising the bar, thinking outside the box, affecting the evolution and having fun doing it is a place that interests me.
I'm sure I'm not alone.

__________________

This art (or business -if one looks at it from that perspective) lies on two constantly progressing factors:

-technology
-human creativity - which again is limited mostly by its expressive tools

People who can't preceive that, either because of their ego, narrowminded attude,
or simply lack of understanding abilities, will stay on the artistic/business level they themselves chose to.




Is RED One a magic bullet that will automatically put any adopter’s career into “warpdrive”?


No more than a great brush for a painter or computing powerhouse for a company C.E.O. IMHO.

But it does expand some abilities.
And makes you smile.


After watching all the clips, having this tool still seems unreal to me.

I can't even imagine how it seems to you G,
but I totally hope you'll have a kick ass time painting that 4k-12bit-21st. canvas with it...