Payment:

[Zakaree Sandberg]

In Case you Missed my post on the other one:


Buyer must pay the full remaining balance of the invoice before order will be processed for shipment. Balance payments in the amount of $7,500 USD or greater will only be accepted via wire transfer or cash equivalent (such as money order, Cashier’s Check, or personal check drawn from a United States bank). Balance payments in the amount of $7,499.99 USD or less may be remitted via credit card payments, wire transfer or cash equivalent as outlined above.

Approximately 30 days before anticipated ship date RED will contact each customer to discuss final payment and method to release product to customer

[Jarred Land]

in case anyone missed it, Zakaree is the newest member of the Red team.

he's gonna be handling tech / customer support down the road along with Brent and Shawn.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Cats out of the bag

[Robert Mott]

His post should become a sticky.

[Shawn Nelson]

Is this the official word? I wasn't aware you are a red employee. I hope this changes and fast, as this is not in keeping with any precedent.

If this is the way it is, does that mean we can break it up, $7k on a CC and then the remaining via transfer?

Lastly, I have not received word from Red about payment or how I will take delivery and allegedly I am within 9 days, so at least for me, your announcement is not correct.

[Ben Feuer]

Thanks - very helpful info, Zakaree.

[Craig Bowman]

...

Approximately 30 days before anticipated ship date RED will contact each customer to discuss final payment and method to release product to customer

As I see from this thread low reservation numbers, (under 100), have not been contacted for payment, is this confirmation that we are in fact still more than thirty days away from the first cameras shipping?

[Zakaree Sandberg]

As I see from this thread low reservation numbers, (under 100), have not been contacted for payment, is this confirmation that we are in fact still more than thirty days away from the first cameras shipping?

no,
its confirmation that we wrote this up today.

[Craig Bowman]

Whew! Ok then, back to the countdown, 9 days and counting...

[Zakaree Sandberg]

hahaha :)

[Jeremy Neish]

Hrmm... I too am probably going to have to split up between credit card and cashier's check. Can you verify that's an option Zakaree?

[Tonaci Tran]

So just clarify, it looks like we can do 7500 in CC and cash/wire transfer for rest?

Or can you do a combination of CC payments in chunks of 7500?

thanks for the info

[Sean R.]

Payments of $7499.99USD or less will be accepted by CC's

edit: a one time payment of under $7500 can be applied to CC's

[Alexander Nikishin]

Zakaree, so the largest amount of our invoice that can be payed by CC is $7,500 and the remainder must be paid in another form?

What if we plan to make multiple payments of $7,500 on multiple cards?

[Zakaree Sandberg]

http://img.snlarc.jt.org/arc/imp/PhHa-Ed%20McMahon.jpg
YOU ARE CORRECT SIR:)

[PaulClements]

I mentioned this in a previous post but it must've been overlooked.

Why don't Red open a Google Checkout account and link it to their payment system. Up until December 31st you can accept credit card payments completely free of charge.

If someone pays $17500, Red would receive $17500.

Come Jan 1st you would pay 1.5% on each processed payment. It's quick and easy to setup so if there are a lot of people wanting to pay by cc this seems like an absolute no brainer for Red.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Are multiple CC payments of $7,500 accepted as long as they're on different cards Zakaree?

[Justin O'Neill]

Wow, Paul, I was just about to post the same thing.

I use google checkout for charging all of my clients and I can confirm that there is NO fee for taking payment by credit card. The exact amount I bill the client for ends up in my checking account a couple days later. This is only valid through Dec. 2007, though.

RED could save themselves a lot of money by using google checkout for the first 4 months of shipments.

[Greg M]

Are multiple CC payments of $7,500 accepted as long as they're on different cards Zakaree?

I think your answer is above in post 13-

"one time payment of under $7500 can be applied to CC's"

[Poi Boy]

That is not very clear.
-A

[Alexander Nikishin]

lol, one time payment to CC's?

Meaning that we can make multiple $7,500 payments on separate cards?

Or does that mean that the maximum amount of our invoice that can be payed by CC is $7,500?

Just for claritys sake.

[Kevin Halverson]

Since many are concerned about the amount that they can put on a credit card charge, there might be a few ways to solve the problem.

If RED's restriction is based upon the credit card discount that they will absorb, then perhaps offering to cover the difference as a "credit card fee" might solve the issue (it is generally about 1.5%).

If that isn't the issue, then one can get a cash advance (and pay the fee to the credit card provider) and transfer the funds into a different instrument.

If it is the potential of charge backs that is the concern, then my first suggestion will likely not be applicable.

Domestic wire transfers are overly pricey in my opinion, a bank draft is the simplest guaranteed instrument for this type of transaction. For foreign purchases, then a wire might be best assuming that the purchasers bank/government doesn't restrict the amount of foreign transfers to an amount that wouldn't allow for the purchase.

[Post]

I think there's some misunderstanding on payments...can we get additional clarification from Red. Are multiple "one time" charges an acceptable form of payment?

[Alexander Nikishin]

If RED's restriction is based upon the credit card discount that they will absorb, then perhaps offering to cover the difference as a "credit card fee" might solve the issue (it is generally about 1.5%).

Great idea.

[Sean R.]

Up to $7499.99 USD in credit card transactions can be applied to an accounts total balance. After that amount balance payments should be sent via wire transfer or cash equivalent.

There are numerous options for those who do not have immediate assests, a lot of these discussed within this thread. We're sorry if this inconveniences anyone but this is common practice for businesses dealing with large currency transactions such as these. Just because this is the situation now does not mean that we are not exploring and considering other options, but right now we are concentrating on getting cameras built.

Sean Ruggeri
ruggeri@red.com

[Zakaree Sandberg]

we will discuss all the payment options with you individually before your number is up

[Tonaci Tran]

Just because this is the situation now does not mean that we are not exploring and considering other options, but right now we are concentrating on getting cameras built.

ruggeri@red.com

Paul's and Obendega's google checkout suggestion seems like a good solution. Only thing for google is "about" 20 million dollars of processing for around 1,000 reds + accessories this year hehe.

[Shawn Nelson]

Why won't Red just get a Google account? Please address this. It seems a no-brainer to satisfy the customers while still getting all the funds.

[Rob Powell]

There seems to be a lot of angst re this issue and I feel many purchasers have been caught with their pants down. As someone who has bought a lot of gear over the years, here are some quick financing options that involve credit, but not credit cards. Both American Express and Wells Fargo are very aggressive in lending to small business owners. You can apply for a "credit-line" which is credit-score based. Approval usually comes in 48 hours.

Depending on your credit status, you can easily get $20-50K approved. From these accounts you can write a check and put it in your bank account or purchase a cashier's check for payment. No credit card fees.

To get larger amounts financed, you've got to go thru channels that require more paperwork and time (bank loans, leasing).

Obviously, if you have bad credit, or low income even Amex and Wells Fargo won't approve a loan. Or they may hike the rate or limit the amount. Anyway, it is a fast "yes/no" alternative, if you were planning to use your credit card for the whole thing.

If all else fails, ask mom and dad.

RA Post

[Thom Steinhoff]

Google checkout=Red Gets all the money=Me Gets Miles

Like getting a free domestic ticket with a purchase of a red!!!

[Jim Hoffman]

Probably a silly question... but...

For those of us who are expecting delivery after the first of the year and would like this to show up on our 2007 books - any issues with paying the amout early - in which case a company check would have plenty of time to clear?

[Sean R.]

Hoffman said:any issues with paying the amout early - in which case a company check would have plenty of time to clear?

No problem there. You can actually pay your balance in full at the time of your order, if you desire.

edit: I need to be more specific here- you can pay for your camera package early, however we would have to bill you for sales tax and shipping fees at the date of shipment. So the bulk of your purchase can be applied to your 2007 books but the sales tax and shipping will be later.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Greetings RedTeam. I can imagine that getting cameras ready to go out the door is keeping you all very busy, however...

How about a procedural breakdown we can all use as a guide...

Payment options, pickup/shipping options, etc.

Thanks in advance and congrats Zakaree.

[Brook Willard]

in case anyone missed it, Zakaree is the newest member of the Red team.

he's gonna be handling tech / customer support down the road along with Brent and Shawn.

Heh, that's funny. Congratulations, Zakaree! That rocks for you.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Blair,
see private message

[Zakaree Sandberg]

thanks for the congrats brook! ive been stoked out of my mind to be here

[Rick Darge]

Can't you just sell the camera to me for $7,499.99 and we'll call it a day?

[Zakaree Sandberg]

ill sell you a t-shirt with a picture of the camera on it for $7,499.99 and call it a day.. let me know if this works.. if so ill head to the screen printer immediately

[Gavin Greenwalt]

If RED's restriction is based upon the credit card discount that they will absorb, then perhaps offering to cover the difference as a "credit card fee" might solve the issue (it is generally about 1.5%).


It would also make them eligible to get all credit card purchases nulled immediately and a hold placed on their account.

That violates the contract you sign when you accept any major credit card.

If you ever see a store doing this you can report them and they be forced to refund the fee and/or lose their right to continue accepting credit cards.

[Jay A. Kelley]

For me, this credit card payment situation is horrible. I am not a happy camper.

Jay

[Alexander Nikishin]

For me, this credit card payment situation is horrible. I am not a happy camper.

Jay

Agreed, credit cards are a way of life for me as of late.

I can pay in another form, but would prefer the option to pay with plastic.

[Kelly]

If you are planning to pay your balance by wire transfer, please follow the directions below:

IMPORTANT: YOU MUST PUT YOUR LAST NAME AND SERIAL OR ORDER NUMBER IN THE REFERENCE FIELD SO WE CAN APPLY YOUR PAYMENT TO YOUR ORDER!

The wire transfer can be submitted with the help of your bank. You may be required to visit your bank in person to execute the wire transfer.

Amount to Transfer: $__________ USD
Bank Name: Key Bank
Bank Address: Bellingham, WA
ABA Routing Number: 125000574
SWIFT Code: keybus33
To Credit: Red.com, Inc. dba Red Digital Cinema Camera Company
Account Number: 472621002345
Reference Number: LAST NAME/SERIAL OR ORDER NUMBER

REFERENCE NUMBER WARNING:
You must write the reference number as provided above on your wire transfer. If you fail to write the reference number properly on the wire transfer your payment may not be processed.

CLIENTS OUTSIDE THE USA
Please be advised that for international wires your bank my require and charge you for the use of an intermediary bank. You should contact your bank and inquire about the possibility of any additional fees.


LET US KNOW IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS... THANKS!

[Morning Glory]

If you are planning to pay your balance by wire transfer, please follow the directions below:

IMPORTANT: YOU MUST PUT YOUR LAST NAME AND SERIAL OR ORDER NUMBER IN THE REFERENCE FIELD SO WE CAN APPLY YOUR PAYMENT TO YOUR ORDER!

The wire transfer can be submitted with the help of your bank. You may be required to visit your bank in person to execute the wire transfer.

Amount to Transfer: $__________ USD
Bank Name: Key Bank
Bank Address: Bellingham, WA
ABA Routing Number: 125000574
SWIFT Code: keybus33
To Credit: Red.com, Inc. dba Red Digital Cinema Camera Company
Account Number: 472621002345
Reference Number: LAST NAME/SERIAL OR ORDER NUMBER

REFERENCE NUMBER WARNING:
You must write the reference number as provided above on your wire transfer. If you fail to write the reference number properly on the wire transfer your payment may not be processed.

CLIENTS OUTSIDE THE USA
Please be advised that for international wires your bank my require and charge you for the use of an intermediary bank. You should contact your bank and inquire about the possibility of any additional fees.


LET US KNOW IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS... THANKS!

Now this DEFINITELY should be a sticky.

oh, and I DO have a question. I have a serial number for the camera, but I also have order number(s) for the accessories. How does one deal with such a situation. I definitely would like to pay with only one wire transfer (at least for items available, the prime kit, if not available, I can pay for with a seperate transfer at that time)

Thanks!

[Jay A. Kelley]

I have until November before I have to pay for this thing.. So I will wait until then and see if RED offers another choice, or if needed will cancel.
Jay

[Johnny Friday]

If you are planning to pay your balance by wire transfer, please follow the directions below:

IMPORTANT: YOU MUST PUT YOUR LAST NAME AND SERIAL OR ORDER NUMBER IN THE REFERENCE FIELD SO WE CAN APPLY YOUR PAYMENT TO YOUR ORDER!

The wire transfer can be submitted with the help of your bank. You may be required to visit your bank in person to execute the wire transfer.

Amount to Transfer: $__________ USD
Bank Name: Key Bank
Bank Address: Bellingham, WA
ABA Routing Number: 125000574
SWIFT Code: keybus33
To Credit: Red.com, Inc. dba Red Digital Cinema Camera Company
Account Number: 472621002345
Reference Number: LAST NAME/SERIAL OR ORDER NUMBER

REFERENCE NUMBER WARNING:
You must write the reference number as provided above on your wire transfer. If you fail to write the reference number properly on the wire transfer your payment may not be processed.

CLIENTS OUTSIDE THE USA
Please be advised that for international wires your bank my require and charge you for the use of an intermediary bank. You should contact your bank and inquire about the possibility of any additional fees.


LET US KNOW IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS... THANKS!

DEFINATELY A QUESTION:
Since I am located out of the country: Mexico to be exact. (HOWEVER I DO HAVE THE GOOD FORTUNE TO HAVE AN ACCOUNT IN THE USA)....and an address in a state other than CA. Are out of state purchases exempt from CA. state sales tax? I presume so....this was noted on my original invoice.

I can have you send it to my out of state address or pick up in CA. BUT, how is the sales tax handled. Upon importing into mexico I pay 17% IVA (value added tax)....so ca. state sales tax is not applicable and of course highly undesirable.

Suggestions?
....is sending camera out of state still the option and I avoid ca sales tax?
thanks....

[Jeff Kilgroe]

His post should become a sticky.

I agree.. Done.

Congrats, Zakaree!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Not sure why there's the $7500 limit on CC payments... I'm sure RED has their reasons (or their bank or CC merchant account provider does). I can see where this could put some people in a bind. I don't think the Google solution is realistic -- the free benefits are geared toward individuals or small business and it looks like there's plenty of restrictions and conditions there too.

My question, that I haven't seen anyone ask yet, but will probably come up... How do payments that have already been made for reservations or down-payments affect all this? Are those amounts factored toward the maximum portion that can be paid on credit card? Or is this only for the balance owed at the actual time the camera becomes available?

[Spinflight]

I have until November before I have to pay for this thing.. So I will wait until then and see if RED offers another choice, or if needed will cancel.
Jay

What will happen to those cameras if people do cancel. Can other people waiting further down the line pick up those cameras to keep the line moving?

[Jim Exton]

What will happen to those cameras if people do cancel. Can other people waiting further down the line pick up those cameras to keep the line moving?

No, from my understanding, they are put into the service pool or used as demos.

[Johnny Friday]

Jeff.....you mentioned in another thread (that i posted to) you don't think it's legal to do CASH DISCOUNTS. I disagree....I think it is pefectly legal---however would have to be double checked. I do this on my payments via cc in the USA for trips here to Mexico. I agree each state may have its own rules on this. But seems to me (not having a law degree) that this is a solution.

Product (red camera): $17,762.50 ($17,500 + $262.50--which is 1.5% cc fee)

So...you pay by cc you pay: $17,762.50

Want to pay cash: you pay: $17,500.00 (because you get a cash discount of x dollars or %)

I seem to recall seeing this in many places once the CC law came into effect and got sellers looking for ways around how to pass on the CC FEE---without actually calling it a CC FEE....nothing more than a play on words---CASH DISCOUNT.

Isn't this a reasonable solution for the many folks that want to put their balance on a CC. Not everyone is doing so because they have no other capital financing solutions---BUT many of us (me included) love to work our CC's and pay the balance each month and earn mileage and in my case with my Amex business card--Increase my business relations with AMEX and therefore further my captial buying power with them on my business card. I know in my case, and i'm sure I'm not alone....it has nothing to do with can't get money elsewhere. CC's are just so convienient and rewarding.

[Omar Saad]

Why won't Red just get a Google account? Please address this. It seems a no-brainer to satisfy the customers while still getting all the funds.


If possible, this certainly sounds like the best solution. I too have been planning on purchasing using credit cards. In fact in recent months I have acquired a couple of 0% interest for 1 year cc's. The plan is to have it payed off in 6 months and avoid paying the crazy interest. As I am just starting out with my business I would imagine that it would be tough to get a small business loan despite a good business plan, good credit, and a great sales pitch to the bank. Not taking cc's leaves me (and I am assuming a handful of other reservation holders) in a world of hurt. I understand Reds position and I don't begrudge them for it at all, after all it is a business and this is a business decision. However, if the pay by google thing that Paul and Shawn have mentioned is as it seems then it does seem like a "no-brainer" to set that up.

just my 2cents,

Omar

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jim,

I would respectfully submit that enough people are concerned with not being allowed to use credit cards for the full balance that you should revisit this situation.

I realize you never said anything about this, but IMHO the fact that we were able to put the deposit down on CC kind of lead me (and perhaps others) to belive the rest could follow.

Perhaps you could consider allowing your reservation holders to pay their bills by credit card. There seems to be some sort of Google solution Paul has spoken of.

Please Jim, reconsider this.

Jay

[SF Geek]

I'm just making sure that I can order all my accessories with the camera and get everything at the same time. I don't really want to put down any more down payments, but I have no issue pre-ordering what I will need if it makes things easier. From this point on I'd just like to pay the grand total. I know before that it was mentioned that no pre-ordering of accessories would be necessary.

[jbeale]

I think it is pefectly legal---however would have to be double checked. .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VISA_(credit_card) has some info in this regard. It is still a bit unclear as interpretation of what constitutes a "fee" and what is a "discount" is apparently up to the individual banks that process the CC monies.

From the point of view of the seller, accepting large orders via CC from individuals or small businesses has some risk also. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_card_fraud

[Johnny Friday]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VISA_(credit_card) has some info in this regard. It is still a bit unclear as interpretation of what constitutes a "fee" and what is a "discount" is apparently up to the individual banks that process the CC monies.

From the point of view of the seller, accepting large orders via CC from individuals or small businesses has some risk also. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_card_fraud

with respect, i'm not sure what you are saying. I take about $300k in cc's for my 2 month whale watching business and have not had one issue in 11 years. BUT I of course obtain authorization, check addresses, verify my clients etc....

I think in the end one has to weigh how much greater a market share you can reach by allowing cc's vs. a cash only transaction. and then asses the potential risks involved. But again cc's are nothing new for big purchases and certainly nothing new to all of us...

[Zack Birlew]

Not good, not good!:ranting2:

Credit cards were the only course for me. Please come up with something else or I'll have to end up canceling too!!!!!!!! :waaa:

[Eric Edwards]

So we cant use Credit Cards to make the full purchase of this camera? I was planning on using CC as well, but I suppose I could do a wire transfer, and if this is the case, can we use another account (separate from the CC account) to make that wire transfer?

[Jay A. Kelley]

This is just an opinion, but this payment model is going against what RED stands for is it not?

The idea was to make a camera accessable to anyone, but in order to buy it you must be extremely liquid or have other special means. The Credit Card is the poor man's bank loan and, as you can already see, many had planned to use it to buy their REDs.

We're not here to discuss if this is a smart idea or not. Rather, my post is simply an insight.. I find it odd that a camera "built for everyman" can only be "purchased" by a select few.

Looks like we've fallen off the rails somewhere along the line.

Jay

[Jim Arthurs]

Folks, may I respectfully submit that RED is not a bank, a financial institution, or for that matter, your best friend willing to give you a loan, or do individual financial planning to help make your dreams come true.

They are in business to make money. If they feel that there are good reasons reasons they don't want to take the full amount of a RED on a credit card, that's that. And by simply telling us so, that's as far as they need to go to explain things to us.

This day was coming, the day when reality sets in and suddenly a thousand plus people realized that they need to somehow get their hands on between $16,500 and $40,000 US pretty quickly. I give RED props by giving you a full month to get your finances in order from the time your unit is ready, but in reality, we've all had WAY longer than that. IT'S NOT THEIR PROBLEM. IT'S OURS.

There have been very valid suggestions on alternatives for you to pursue in this thread. A small business loan makes great sense if you don't have cash on hand. Get with your financial insitution, and start talking to them NOW. If it works out that the ONLY option you have is an unsecured loan at staggering interest, then I'd also submit that maybe you should hold off and rent for a while.

Credit cards are NOT the answer for this sort of purchase. No sane business manager in the world would suggest that you go that route.

Get a good business plan together... show how you intend to pay off the RED and put it to use.

There's a reason my serial number is in the 400's and I didn't sign up at NAB. NOT for lack of enthusiasm on my part... I simply waited until my HVX earned enough money to buy the RED and give me some sort of indication of how long and hard I'd have to use it to pay it off. I'm a VFX guy first, a shooter second, and the numbers had to work on any sort of non-trivial purchase.

That old saying is wrong, you CAN put a price on dreams, and sometimes you have to realize you can't afford them.

[Zack Birlew]

Little update:

My family didn't take the news very well, my parents said that with credit cards you have security in your purchase on your end in case your being scammed. They said wire transfers aren't safe at all, it's like handing over straight cash and who knows where it's going?

Me, I don't know too much about payments and bank stuff, my parents have taken care of that stuff and I'll definitely be learning once I graduate from college and move to LA. So, with that said, if they say something sounds fishy then I take their word for it.

As I said before, if RED doesn't come up with something before my camera arrives in November, then I'll definitely have to cancel and go with the SI-2K. It's just the sad truth of my situation and judging from the few posts in this thread, I'm not alone with concern over this.


Edit:
Just for clarification, it's not about being able to afford the camera itself, it's the method of payment that I have a problem with. Jim A., it isn't about whether people can afford the camera, if they couldn't they wouldn't have paid $1000 to owe $16,500, what a silly thing to say! As I said with credit cards, from what I've been told, it's about having security in your purchase and should anything happen, such as if my film dept. dean's dream comes true and the camera's a scam, or you don't get your camera at all, or if something happens to it before or after it gets to you, you can get your money back no matter what. Wire transfer = no protection, so if the camera doesn't arrive, you're out of $17,500+.

[I Bloom]

ill sell you a t-shirt with a picture of the camera on it for $7,499.99 and call it a day.. let me know if this works.. if so ill head to the screen printer immediately

Zakaree, I actually really want that T-shirt. But I need you to shift the decimal point over, three digits to the left. But seriously, I live in NYC and stickers are for people who drive cars. When can I get a T-shirt or a hat to wear on set?

IBloom

PS You guys should have a T-shirt design contest, winner gets a free RED.... screen printed on a T-shirt.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I disagree with you Mr Arthurs. RED may not be a bank, but it is a company that wants as many paying customers as it can get. This decision will keep a number of would be customers from making a purchase they planned on for a while now.. And I think you are wrong in that many people have known what they were going to do and how they were going to pay for it... The problem is they just found out they cannot do what they planned.

For RED this is a simple matter, how much business will they lose under their current payment structure. A 1.5% fee on a $25,000.00 bill is around $375.00. So the question is, how much does a lost sale cost them? More or less than $375.00. What was Jack_Felis planning on buying with his credit card purchase?

As for you telling people that a credit card purchase is a stupid idea, I cannot speak for the others, but I can say for myself, you have NO IDEA what my plans are as I have not shared them with you, therefore how can you know what I am doing is stupid. I think opinions like this are best kept to one's self.

I purchased an HVX-200 on credit card, I purchased an AJ-SDX900 on credit card, I have purchased editing systems on credit cards. We are not asking for something unusual, in fact we are asking for something the industry supports quite well.

As for RED not needing to explain themselves. Yes, actually they do. You see, all things being equal, if a customer just stands there, says nothing, and does nothing, you will end up with a board customer. If a business just stands there, says nothing and does nothing, you will end up with a business that is no longer in business.

I have respectfully asked that Jim take another look at this issue. Others have repeated that request in their own words as well. Knowing this company I have NO DOUBT Jim will not let this go unless he has no other choice. Up to this point his singular goal has been "Happy Customers" he has said it many times.

You do not agree with us and that's just fine. Nevertheless, it is our request to make, and Jim's decision.

Jay

[Jim Arthurs]

Jay, you're absolutely right that your plans are yours and your business manager and are your own affairs.

My statements merely reflect the world as I see it, and the business models that I live by.

It's interesting that after I posted my opinion on the matter, I read your post that proceeded mine. Amazing how far apart two views could possibly be on the same subject, but I sure hope you wind up with your RED on terms you can work with.

Good luck

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeff.....you mentioned in another thread (that i posted to) you don't think it's legal to do CASH DISCOUNTS.

Hey, I see what you're saying... Makes sense. Unfortunately, it would have to be something to checked legally. I do know for a fact that some states, Colorado for sure as that's where I'm located, specifically disallow this practice. But RED is obviously not based here and I don't know what California allows or does not allow. In many places, it is against the law to say "if you pay by cash instead of a credit card, you get x% discount". There are so many consumer protection laws in place today that it's hard to make sense of it all. And just as many loopholes or ways to get around such restrictions.

This tangent of discussion also makes the blind assumption that RED's limits to credit card purchases are related to transaction fees. I personally don't believe this is so. I think there are other issues. If transaction fees were the problem, then why would RED not just make an educated guess about how many CC orders to expect and adjust the price accordingly to try and compensate by making the price $17,575 or something... Transaction fees seems like a silly reason... There's often transaction fees on wire transfers or other means of payment, so why restrict credit cards because of this. More than likely it has to do with their merchant services provider, or fraud protection, insurance, etc.. And with all that said, I don't even want to guess. As it could be any of these things (even the transaction fees I doubt) or any combination, or something else entirely.

While placing a large purchase like this on a credit card wouldn't be my first choice, I do respect that some people will need to use credit cards for a significant portion of a purchase like this. I'm confident that Jim and the RED Team will find a way to accommodate every potential customer.

[donatello b]

"have to cancel and go with the SI-2K."

so SI takes full payment on CC ?
so you willing pay 3-4K more for the SI 2k body that has a 2/3 " sensor then get a cash advance on your CC ( 1.5% fee) & go for a 4k - well i have to call you on this one - let me know when you get it because i do have a few shots i would like to use the mini head ( i'll need a rental) ...

the RED is priced at direct to customer lowest price ...

whatever rules there are in Mexico do not apply in the USA ....

again : if one is willing to pay the CC fee's then why don't you just go down and take out CASH on your CC ? i believe it's a 1.5 % fee ( could be less then RED's fee ??)

[jbeale]

it's about having security in your purchase and should anything happen, such as if my film dept. dean's dream comes true and the camera's a scam, or you don't get your camera at all, or if something happens to it before or after it gets to you, you can get your money back no matter what. Wire transfer = no protection, so if the camera doesn't arrive, you're out of $17,500+.

Let me make sure I understand this. If your red number is 634, that means your camera is shipping when? ...and if the whole thing is a fraud, you are thinking that you won't have heard about that news anywhere by that time?

I do agree that the consumer protection aspect is a very reasonable take, generally speaking. I would never do a wire transfer to a no-name vendor on ebay, for sure. But trying to see both sides of the issue here- from the vendor's point of view: If you are relying on a CC charge-back "if something happens to it before OR AFTER it gets to you" rather than working with the vendor on the issue via warranty repair, would a vendor possibly prefer to avoid your business? (note- just trying to reason this through; no offense intended towards anyone. Of course I do not speak for red, or anyone else.)

[Zack Birlew]

Hey, as I said, I don't know much about this stuff, that's just what I'm told.

As far as the SI-2K goes, I'm looking into it as we speak, or rather type. The point is that this wire transfer stuff isn't going to work for me. Not at all. A lot of businesses take credit cards for all kinds of expensive stuff, more expensive than RED, so why can't RED do the same?

EDIT: Actually Donatello, by going with the SI-2K, I'll save upwards of $5,000+ off of what I would buy with RED, but I don't have to tell you or anyone else what I exactly intend to buy from RED. Also, not everyone has to take out a loan for RED, as has been said, we've had a long time to save up. For me it's strictly the safety and guarantee that comes with using a credit card for such purchases.

[jbeale]

Not to be blunt about it, but a lot of businesses charge very high markups. :-) Maybe the solution is for Red to announce a new model: Red_One_P (stands for "Plastic") which is available with new upgraded payment options and happens to cost about 2% more than the "old" model.
(PS. intended as humor.)

[donatello b]

i think any scams is going to be against RED not by RED ...

off the top of my head ... i buy a red on CC ... i now have 60 days once it shows up on my bill to contest it ... so i receive my camera and shoot my movie within that 60 days ... at the end of my shoot i simply call my CC to say i contest the bill because the camera wasn't as good as stated or whatever reason i make up ... i then do not have to make any payments till the matter is resolved which could take 1-3 months which during that time i can still use the RED ...

Jack, IMO once RED hits the streets any 2/3" digital cinema camera is not going to be in demand in the rental market ... but if it is for your personal use then that is a different story and the SI 2k would be my 2nd choice as a camera to buy ...

[Sean]

I think credit cards are a significant way for independent filmmakers to get anything done, including buying camera equipment. And I do feel a tremendous peace of mind knowing that my credit card offers benefits such as 30 day theft/loss/damage protection, as well as paying for service/repairs for a year after the warranty expires. And since when do emerging indie filmmakers have rolling lines of credit at the bank. Or $20K sitting around.

[donatello b]

"credit card offers benefits such as 30 day theft/loss/damage protection, as well as paying for service/repairs for a year after the warranty expires"

you better read the FINE print on your CC protection ... BofA owns most visa & mastercard company's ... they cover consumer electronics ( many have a max $ amount ) not professional items like camera 's nor do they cover auto's ... so the above statement none of it would cover a RED ...

[Sean]

I've read the fine print on my Canadian Visa policy and I don't remember any such exceptions. But I haven't called them to specifically ask yet how they'd handle such an item, though I intend to.

[Jim Arthurs]

I would put forth that the RED isn't a purchase for an emerging filmmaker.

Back in the day, we all would just rent/borrow/beg someone's SR/NPR/Aaton for our projects. A very small number of indies owned a sync camera, and if so, it was usually an ACL or NPR. Most of us owned a Bolex, or Arri S or the like for misc work, but no one OWNED the primary production camera.

Maybe the future POCKET CAM will be the exact ticket for those learning their chops... and the next evolutionary step from the current prosumer cameras... I don't know.

I do believe that the original idea of the RED is somewhat out of line with the reality of what the RED has evolved into. RED exceeded all original announced goals, and in the process the camera became a bit more than something the HVX crowd would automatically buy as their upgrade without a serious business plan on how to pay for it. It's a bit more than just a step up what with accessories and glass, but of course delivers a punch than can't be touched at any price point.

In a year, with some saturation at the rental house, the RED will be a very cheap option to rent, so that's something to hold out for if a purchase is out of line, and probably a better deal on the wallet unless you are actually using it every day of every week.

[Sean]

Red is for all filmmakers isn't it? It's for emerging filmmakers as much as it's for Stephen Soderbergh and Peter Jackson. Isn't that what's so cool? Isn't that part of the point? Otherwise, why not just keep the price at $100,000 and the rest of us can beg, borrow, steal and rent. If Red Inc. simply wanted to make a camera for the relatively small number of rich, established players (a la Viper), the company could easily have done that.

[Zack Birlew]

I have a feeling that this is erring on personal. I'm not attacking RED, hey, I literally am the fanboy for RED:

<--- youngest RED buyer (last time I checked)

However, this payment process is cutting me and some other people out of buying a RED. It was already a feat trying to get enough money saved up for the thing but to be cut off at the last second by an announcement of an unnerving payment process has really got me worked up. I don't need a lesson in credit cards, thank you anyway. Thankfully that's not for me to worry about yet. But if it makes things difficult for me to buy the camera then, yes, I'll be forced to jump ship no matter how desperately I want to stay on. I don't want to settle on 2K, but as has been said by many others in the past, as far as a second camera choice, the SI-2K is it and I'm looking into it, which I should if this isn't going to work out, why not?

P.S. Personally, I don't think RED is a scam, I know many who think it is, but I was mentioning that as an example. I was there at NAB and saw the things working and so did many others. I don't know why people are still negative towards it, probably the shock. But anyway, I only used that scenario as an example.

[donatello b]

from Visa ... for the fine details you have to ask them for the supplement .

Purchase protection delivers another important benefit. It provides short-term protection against theft and accidental damage for purchases you've made with your Visa Platinum card. So should the unexpected happen, you can enjoy extra peace of mind
Extended warranty protects goods you've purchased with an automatic extension of the manufacturer's or retailer's warranty for up to 24 months from when you bought the item. The warranty is available on a range of goods including household electrical appliances.


What items are not covered?
Items purchased for resale, professional, or commercial use.

[Eric Edwards]

I have a feeling that this is erring on personal. I'm not attacking RED, hey, I literally am the fanboy for RED:

<--- youngest RED buyer (last time I checked)



Hah I think I got you beat, im only 20, not 21 til oct. Looks like I hold the new title!

[Zack Birlew]

Hah I think I got you beat, im only 20, not 21 til oct. Looks like I hold the new title!

Here's your crown...

*places crown on Eric's head*

:biggrin:

[Eric Edwards]

Thanks, I truly appreciate that...hah

[donatello b]

now when we get our "bill" ... will RED accept the Cailfornia 6378 exemption certificate ( knocks off the 1st 5.25% sales tax in CA) on sales tax ??

[Omnius]

This is just my two cents. . .
I've noticed some posts where individuals are not very pleased with current final payment setup.

I personally don't see anything the matter with RED requiring those who are serious about purchasing the camera to provide final payment via wire transfer.

I think Jim has his head screwed on right.

The question I had to ask myself before I placed my orders was "Do I actually have the money for this kind of purchase? Can I afford this?".

I personally think the wire transfer is a smart idea for obvious reasons.
There's alot of credit card fraud going around these days, especially towards U.S. companies from overseas orders.
I've purchased a considerable amount of Grip, Lighting and Camera equipment from U.S. companies in the past who preferred I pay via wire transfer due to fears associated with credit card fraud, or whatever other reasoning they may have had.
It was nothing personal against me or anyone else, I think it's just the company, dealer, or manufacturer trying to watch their own backs which is perfectly understandable.

It only takes about 20 minutes out of my day on those occasions where I am required to make a wire transfer.
Sure my bank charges me a bit of a fee for the transfer, but at the end of the day it's less than paying the interest rates I'd have to pay if I had used my card for such a significant purchase.

The question is:
How badly do you really want the Camera?

It's only my opinion.
Please don't jump all over me for it.

[Thom Steinhoff]

I'm mostly going to stay out of this as I have no problem with a wire transfer but I understand peoples desire/need to use credit.

I just want to add one thing: with all the trimmings this adds up to be as expensive as a new car--and I have never met a car dealer, with the 5 or so new cars I have purchased in my life that would even think of taking credit cards for the entire purchase--and I have absolutly tried--to get the miles. In the end they'll float a few thousand on cards but they all insist on cash, wire or check.

Car dealers may do it for used junkers with huge markup but never in a 30+ thousand dollar new car. Never. Show me someone who did and I'll show you someone who must have gotten majorly screwed in their negotiations.

One last thing that is bugging me: I realize I'm a bit of an old timer here, but after all we've been through with jim and co over the years, all the demos, unparalleled open straight talk, not to mention the cast of heavy hitters like jackson and soderberg--if anyone has even a shred of doubt to reds integrity--they don't deserve this camera.

[miles]

Is shipping and handling free? If not, when will these rates be known to prospect buyers?
Thanks, m.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Just got a few thousand miles from a car myself. ;) But yeah. There is always a limit to how many miles one company is willing to enable you to achieve--that is with the exception of educational institutions. Free trip to New Zealand oh yeah! I knew that degree was worth something!

I can see a number of reasons why you would like to put it on a credit card. (I use less than $10 in petty cash every month and the only check I write is for rent) however I do have trouble seeing how people are unable to use any other method. Yes wiretransfers are just like handing over a smelly wad of cash but it's not like you don't know where it's going or how to track down Jim and Co. if they run for the hills.

I also can't see how finance would be an issue even at $30,000. A 72 month $30,000 loan isn't a risky venture if you are making more than $30,000 a year in income. It probably wouldn't be more than about $600 a month in payments. Worst comes to worst, forget business loan and just take out a personal loan.

And if your RED camera is going to be profitable your business is going to need to make that in revenue probably at least every quarter for just one person so you had better be comfortable dealing with that kind of money responsibly.

[oldphart]

I have a feeling that this is erring on personal. I'm not attacking RED, hey, I literally am the fanboy for RED:

<--- youngest RED buyer (last time I checked)

However, this payment process is cutting me and some other people out of buying a RED. It was already a feat trying to get enough money saved up for the thing but to be cut off at the last second by an announcement of an unnerving payment process has really got me worked up...

There is something called an irrevokable letter of credit. I have used it on one occation, many years ago - it means your bank sets up a transaction where they guarantee to the vendor that the money will be paid against the goods, but do not transfer the actual money until the goods are shipped. You can include insurance against damage or loss in transit. It is the business version of COD.

If you're willing to pay a banker's fee to feel secure, you can see this as the credit card option with the purchaser paying the fee.

[Intelsat]

A credit card fee of 1.5% has been mentioned often on this thread. I guarantee Red would pay a higher fee. Credit card companies charge merchants higher rates for cards that offer rebates (miles, cash back, etc.). Where do you think that money comes from? The money is taken from the merchant (Red) not the credit card company. I have a Visa with a 2% cash rebate - Red's credit transaction fee on that card would be 3.5% minimum. Merchants just hate credit cards with rebates. Also merchants pay higher rates for transactions not performed in person (internet or phone orders).

Sure I'd love 2% cash back on the cameras I've ordered or airplane tickets to anywhere in the USA. This is a super high performance camera with a budget price. Red does not have a big profit margin on this camera, like, for example Sony has on their 1080p cameras.

Free shipping. Again I would not hold my breath on that one. It's a real cost. The camera will have to be packed, insured and shipped on a reliable carrier - not so cheap. If the camera is damaged in shipping Red will have to sort it out - and that will have costs for Red as well.

Red is a business. Red has already treated its future customers better than any other camera company. We are buying this camera directly from the manufacturer, if they retailed this camera the price would be thousands more.

[Sean]

I guess this discussion highlights how Red is bridging two worlds that don't really meet up very often: the established, well financed world of production and the self-financed independent artist working outside that system who would have bought a complete HVX package from B&H on their credit card. Yes, you can say that Red is infinitely better than an HVX in quality and then you can get into the argument that Red is more "pro" (whatever that means), and so maybe it's not like buying an HVX at all. But the fact is a lot of Red buyers are guys who would have bought an HVX package if Red hadn't appeared. We have had the Red money set aside in a bank account for some time but I still would have preferred buying on credit card for a number of reasons. I'm sure there are all kinds of factors that would make Red want to avoid credit cards, but again, I do think the reaction of many prospective users highlights exactly what is cool about Red: a broad spectrum of artists and filmmakers is devoted to this camera. Not just guys with established credit facilities at their bank. Even so, most Redusers will find a way to swing it, I suspect, even if it involves begging, borrowing and stealing. When's the last time I was going to be able to own a camera that is the production camera of choice for someone like Stephen Soderbergh?

[Jay A. Kelley]

It's a numbers game. Accepting credit cards will cost money in fees. Not accepting them will cost money in sales.

Logic suggests that while RED is in the driver's seat, and does not have to offer this convience to it's customers, it will not do so. If and/or when sales slow, and RED wants to increase it's reach, then it will look at this again as a way to get those customers that may use plastic and nothing else.

This is not about the camera, it's about profit vs. expense. Right now someone at RED has most likely said "Why take credit cards for the whole thing? It's expensive, and these RED heads will find the money one way or the other!".

If someone did say this, they'd be right.... For now.



Jay

[Zakaree Sandberg]

now when we get our "bill" ... will RED accept the Cailfornia 6378 exemption certificate ( knocks off the 1st 5.25% sales tax in CA) on sales tax ??

Hey donatello,
Where can i find this exemption certificate.. i remember seeing it a while ago and i printed it out but i lost the location (this is coming from ME as a REDUSER/purchaser:) )

[Kevin Halverson]

Hey donatello,
Where can i find this exemption certificate.. i remember seeing it a while ago and i printed it out but i lost the location (this is coming from ME as a REDUSER/purchaser:) )


Check here:

http://www.boe.ca.gov/sutax/pdf/parttelecert.pdf

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Check here:

http://www.boe.ca.gov/sutax/pdf/parttelecert.pdf

THANKS!

[Michael Schrengohst]

It's a numbers game. Accepting credit cards will cost money in fees. Not accepting them will cost money in sales.

Logic suggests that while RED is in the driver's seat, and does not have to offer this convience to it's customers, it will not do so. If and/or when sales slow, and RED wants to increase it's reach, then it will look at this again as a way to get those customers that may use plastic and nothing else.

This is not about the camera, it's about profit vs. expense. Right now someone at RED has most likely said "Why take credit cards for the whole thing? It's expensive, and these RED heads will find the money one way or the other!".

If someone did say this, they'd be right.... For now.



Jay

If RED has 2500-3000 confirmed reservations then you gotta believe
they may have had a fair amount of problems with many transactions.
With Oakley I am sure Jim shipped to suppliers and also had his
share of problems with several creditors. Why the $7,500 limit, don't know?
RED will not have any problem selling cameras. They won't "lose" sales
as the pipeline of customers is there. For those folks who cannot swing
the cash upfront then I would suggest bowing out - work your ass off and
save your money. You can always get back in line. It might delay your
RED dream for 6-9 months, but waiting instead of stressing
might be what many people need to do right now.

[Kevin Halverson]

A credit card fee of 1.5% has been mentioned often on this thread. I guarantee Red would pay a higher fee. Credit card companies charge merchants higher rates for cards that offer rebates (miles, cash back, etc.). Where do you think that money comes from? The money is taken from the merchant (Red) not the credit card company. I have a Visa with a 2% cash rebate - Red's credit transaction fee on that card would be 3.5% minimum. Merchants just hate credit cards with rebates. Also merchants pay higher rates for transactions not performed in person (internet or phone orders).

The 1.5% discount is likely very close to accurate for a company with the financial strength of RED. Where credit card issuers make the bulk of their returns is not from merchant discounts, but from the difference between their borrowing power and the lending rate. Interest from the card holders represents the bulk of the profits they enjoy.

[R. Gonzales]

Folks, may I respectfully submit that RED is not a bank, a financial institution, or for that matter, your best friend willing to give you a loan, or do individual financial planning to help make your dreams come true.

They are in business to make money. If they feel that there are good reasons reasons they don't want to take the full amount of a RED on a credit card, that's that. And by simply telling us so, that's as far as they need to go to explain things to us.

This day was coming, the day when reality sets in and suddenly a thousand plus people realized that they need to somehow get their hands on between $16,500 and $40,000 US pretty quickly. I give RED props by giving you a full month to get your finances in order from the time your unit is ready, but in reality, we've all had WAY longer than that. IT'S NOT THEIR PROBLEM. IT'S OURS.

There have been very valid suggestions on alternatives for you to pursue in this thread. A small business loan makes great sense if you don't have cash on hand. Get with your financial insitution, and start talking to them NOW. If it works out that the ONLY option you have is an unsecured loan at staggering interest, then I'd also submit that maybe you should hold off and rent for a while.

Credit cards are NOT the answer for this sort of purchase. No sane business manager in the world would suggest that you go that route.

Get a good business plan together... show how you intend to pay off the RED and put it to use.

There's a reason my serial number is in the 400's and I didn't sign up at NAB. NOT for lack of enthusiasm on my part... I simply waited until my HVX earned enough money to buy the RED and give me some sort of indication of how long and hard I'd have to use it to pay it off. I'm a VFX guy first, a shooter second, and the numbers had to work on any sort of non-trivial purchase.

That old saying is wrong, you CAN put a price on dreams, and sometimes you have to realize you can't afford them.

You sound so pompous, please just speak for yourself and try not to push your sensibilities on to others. Your life decisions are your own and does not reflect the lives and the decisions of others on this board... Just keep it to yourself.

Kindest Regards

Method

[Rob Powell]

I guess this discussion highlights how Red is bridging two worlds that don't really meet up very often: the established, well financed world of production and the self-financed independent artist working outside that system who would have bought a complete HVX package from B&H on their credit card.

Great summary of the debate. We've financed several six figure purchases over the years, so the Red price tag is really rather small. Borrowing money to buy gear is easy, if you have the established cash flow to show a lender. If you do not, you should really be asking yourself how you plan to pay for this gear. This industry is littered with the bodies of individuals who bought a state-of-the-art "whatever" and hoped they'd develop the clients to pay for it. Our philosophy, is that we don't buy gear unless we have the CASH on hand, or know that our existing client base will want the gear and pay enuf to justify the purchase.

If these types of questions scare or anger you, you are not basing your purchase on sound business judgement.

P.S. As a company that accepts CC's, the post re extra fees is "100% accurate." Not to mention the different fees structures of Amex vs. VISA and the higher fees for corporate and international cards. RED cannot accomodate all these different fee structures and should not be expected to. Paying for the camera is each person's responsibility. There are solutions for this, but they require effort on your part.

RA Post

[Jim Arthurs]

You sound so pompous, please just speak for yourself and try not to push your sensibilities on to others. Your life decisions are your own and does not reflect the lives and the decisions of others on this board... Just keep it to yourself.

Kindest Regards

Method

Warm regards received... but one question... Why would I or you ever post if we weren't expressing our own point of view or life decisions?

I make no apologies for anything I post. It's easy to think that because we've grown to know Jim and the RED team that we're all friends and friends help friends with money... that somehow they should take your advice on HOW to take your money. They've more than met us half way, by bringing such an amazing bargain to to the market in the first place. Everyone that feels they owe you even more assumes too much, methinks!

RED is an amazing product, but it's not free, nor is it in the range of someone that should be a first time HVX customer. Nor should it be. It's the extreme top end of the market at a lower mid-level price. And that price may force some to put off the purchase, or re-evaluate their needs.

[Johnny Friday]

I had to say this....
What's with all the hvx bashing. That camera has made me a lot of money and my library has grown significantly.

I bought my HVX, XLH1, Z1U and just about everything else on CC through B&H. --- If B&H can do it why not RED? ....only a hypothesis, but if it wasn't good business wouldn't B&H be out of it? --- i only use them as a model since i believe they do some huge cc business with similar merchandise.

I'd like to do the same with my RED. Has nothing to do with poor planning or bad business decisions nor a business plan. BUSINESS PLAN??? yeah right. Never wrote one in my life, never will....and i don't mean any disrepect to all those that do. I'll live and die by my own decisions, contacts and ability, not something put to paper.

Is wiring money a sound business decision? I really don't think so. Does it mean i don't believe in RED? Don't think so. Never would have been on this train if I didn't believe in it.

If at the end of the day RED says no cc's.....OK, so I'll be dissapointed. But i really don't like the idea of a wire transfer-no matter how well established the company. That seems like loaning money to my neighbor and then the what happens when he gets hit by a truck. Just trying to see the other side of the coin (so to speak) here and play devils advocate. RED must make a sound financial decision for themselves....but also me as a consumer must make a good sound decision as well. I can't think of many purchases I would EVER make if my only option was a wire transfer. if that's the case I would of course prefer to hop on a plane and pick the camera up with cash, bank draft or cashiers check. Seriously....would you really wire money to vendors as a normal course of doing business? I have to say i actually do, but i'm a nervous nelly until i get my product or service.

.....again no disrepsect to RED and their end financial decsions. But jez.....how about some options other than cold, hard cash sent down the pipeline. :poster_spam:

[Elijah Kelley]

Hey Zakaree,
Congrats. I'm in Maryland. That means there are no taxes on my purchase right? Only shipping. Correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Thats correct. No sales tax if your in Maryland.

[Elijah Kelley]

Kewel... (Cool)
I don't envy you. I know you're getting smashed because it's crunch time.

Cheers

[Zack Birlew]

From Mom,

"I want to believe 100% in the Red Company and it products. That being said I also must trust 30 years of business experience and a red flag has shot up when I read about the method of payment that is being floated for the RED.

The use of a credit card does not have any bearing on the user's ability to pay for the camera. It is simply a means, much like using a check, but with a safety net. If something bad happens, God forbid, such as the product never being recieved, does not work, no support, ect. then the credit card company will refund your money back. Sending cash, wire transfer, etc. is the same as sending money to the Grand Caymans or Switzerland. Think "scam". If something happens, what will be your recourse? Sue? To do that, somebody would have to hire a lawyer(s) to start a class action suit which could drag on for years and you may never recieve your money back.

Legitimate businesses do not ask strictly for cash in my opinion. If they wish to tack on a fee for the buyer using a credit card, then that's fine! What is 1.5% when you are talking about insurance on a $20,000+ product? By the way, should the IRS be looking into this company? Cash, hmmm..."

[Jim Arthurs]

Mom has spoken.

If we haven't already, we've now reached the point where other forums can officially start the "RED fanboys realize they can't pay for their cameras!" or the like... similar to "RED fanboys realize their accessories will cost extra $$$".

Jack, you're a super great guy and I'm sure your mom is as well.

It's just become an itty-bit surreal when someone's mom suggests that the IRS look into RED...

[donatello b]

"By the way, should the IRS be looking into this company? Cash, hmmm..."

why include that .... what's the suggestion here ?
lets see i bought a prius , they would only allow $7500 CC and the rest check ( cash) hummmm perhaps the IRS should look into them and any dealer that doesn't accept full amount CC ??

then maybe there could be a RED direct - current payment rules ...
and then a Red -retail where everything is priced higher so CC can be used - now guessing i would say it would be more in the 5-10% higher area ....

[Sean R.]

Jack_Felis said:

Legitimate businesses do not ask strictly for cash in my opinion. If they wish to tack on a fee for the buyer using a credit card, then that's fine! What is 1.5% when you are talking about insurance on a $20,000+ product? By the way, should the IRS be looking into this company? Cash, hmmm..."


Jack please tell your mom:
That being a legitimate business we are not asking strictly for cash, we accept checks drawn from a US bank,we also give you the option to put up to $7500 on a credit card. No it's not "fine for us to tack on a fee for the buyer using a credit card". About the IRS remark, serious? I hold my tongue hear. "Cash, hmmm..." We are not asking you to meet us in a parking lot with $20K in small un-marked bills.

[Jason Laramy]

This is wild... cash or check or wire is 100 percent normal for this kind of purchase.

[Kevin Halverson]

Actually, other than consumer transactions, payment by an irrevocable means is the normal for most transactions. Prepayment (in full) is very typical unless credit has been established by the purchaser. Any instrument that has any recourse is essentially the equivalent of the seller extending credit to the purchaser. Since RED likely knows little, if any, about the credit worthiness of the purchaser, why would they extend this?

Keep in mind, this is a different type of transaction than you purchasing a product manufactured by X, sold to distributor Y, resold to dealer Z who offer's it for sale to the end consumer. Rather, you are dealing directly with the manufacturer and you, as and end user, are not a business entity with considerable capital reserves and purchasing / credit history.

If you want, I am sure RED can find a retailer that will happily take your credit card for the entire purchase amount, assuming that you are willing to pay their "retail" price. This might make your RED One $25,000 or more. Consider that by being given the privilege of dealing directly with the manufacturer, you might be required to abide by their business practices.

Credit cards are very rare in business to business transactions. Most purchases are either prepaid (if credit worthiness has not been established) or are billed NET (if credit worthiness has been established).

This is not illegal, nor immoral, its just normal business. The IRS would have no interest in this type of business practice as it is the norm, world wide.

[Brook Willard]

We are not asking you to meet us in a parking lot with $20K in small un-marked bills.

Though wouldn't that make the purchasing process a whole hell of a lot of fun?

[Jim Arthurs]

"... But Mom, all the other guys are buying F950's on credit cards!".

I'm gone now... just gone... be back when, well... I don't know...

[Greg M]

From Mom,

"I want to believe 100% in the Red Company and it products. That being said I also must trust 30 years of business experience and a red flag has shot up when I read about the method of payment that is being floated for the RED.

The use of a credit card does not have any bearing on the user's ability to pay for the camera. It is simply a means, much like using a check, but with a safety net. If something bad happens, God forbid, such as the product never being recieved, does not work, no support, ect. then the credit card company will refund your money back. Sending cash, wire transfer, etc. is the same as sending money to the Grand Caymans or Switzerland. Think "scam". If something happens, what will be your recourse? Sue? To do that, somebody would have to hire a lawyer(s) to start a class action suit which could drag on for years and you may never recieve your money back.

Legitimate businesses do not ask strictly for cash in my opinion. If they wish to tack on a fee for the buyer using a credit card, then that's fine! What is 1.5% when you are talking about insurance on a $20,000+ product? By the way, should the IRS be looking into this company? Cash, hmmm..."

WOW !
I am speechless...this thread is like a really bad reality show gone wrong.

[Ken K]

"Cash, hmmm..." We are not asking you to meet us in a parking lot with $20K in small un-marked bills.

LMAO... funniest thing I've read all day! But now I have a request. If I can convince someone to film it with their Red, can this be my method of payment? I'd have a suitcase full of small un-marked bills and our cars could pull up in the empty parking lot on a dark and just-having-rained night.

[Johnny Friday]

This isnt an official statement: haha
but just my thoughts on it..
sure you can buy hvx from BH on credit card.. the total price of that would be what? $6399.95? RED is letting you use $7,499.99 on credit card... so a good chunk is still good for credit card..
YEAH?

.....did i forget to mention a gates underwater housing, fathom imaging wide angle lens, ND filter kit, wireless mics, tripode, etc, etc, etc, ....i only wish i dropped $6,000usd. More like 26k

[Zack Birlew]

.....did i forget to mention a gates underwater housing, fathom imaging wide angle lens, ND filter kit, wireless mics, tripode, etc, etc, etc, ....i only wish i dropped $6,000usd. More like 26k

Exactly!:gun:

[Greg M]

We are not asking you to meet us in a parking lot with $20K in small un-marked bills.

But this could be an option for those who are concerned about shipping costs, or if Jack's Mom is concerned her son is going to receive a box full of bricks. I would suggest that Red should modify the requirements so that those meeting up with cash should have $100 bills only...no dollar bills please. The should also wear sunglasses for the full effect.

[Unwounded]

Wow, it seems like there are a lot of people out there who need a real serious financial reality check. this is a 17.5 thousand dollar (which will also require AT LEAST another 5-10K in further investment) camera. THAT IS A LOT OF MONEY. Not everyone can honestly afford that kind of purchase or if they can, can't justify that large of an expenditure. This is not an HVX, this is MANY levels of expensive above an HVX. Maybe some people should rent for a little while before biting off that big of a piece of Debt pie. I'm guessing that if that many people are gonna charge then they probably won't have the money right after the purchase to pay off the credit card whcih means they'll be paying the interest on 20 plus thousand dollars. THINK ABOUT THAT. Even if you have a good interest rate. THAT IS A LOT OF MONEY.

[Johnny Friday]

Jack_Felis said:


we accept checks drawn from a US bank,we also give you the option to put up to $7500 on a credit card.

" We are not asking you to meet us in a parking lot with $20K in small un-marked bills.

......ah I here check. That's ok by me now. Of course CC really makes my day, but this is the first time I can recall hearing check.....

Hope credit cards 100% of purchase price will be the call at the end of the day, but i feel better now hearing check and not wire transfer.

:shiftyph34r:

[Password Expired]

I don't understand what the problem is here. I already paid for my Red just the other day with my credit card. Someone named Umfoofoo Mowgli emailed me on where to send payment. I sent payment as instructed to the National Bank of Nigeria. Quick and easy. They already charged the $40,000 no problem. I expect my Red next week as told. Woohoo! I am so excited!

Here's what my mom had to say because she is an authority and references to moms should always be taken along the same lines as when, you know, like when the Surgeon General speaks or as if I am quoting from the Encyclopedia Britannica:

"Always eat your peas and when you take a girl out, open the car door for her or I will disown you and take away your $20,000 camera, which I am buying for you only because you don't have a real job yet".

That's what she said. My dad had a different take:

"Woman, where are my socks?!"

Anyway, I hate all these film and industry people telling me how it is, as if they really earn money with their cameras, yeah right. $40,000 credit card purchases are completely normal and happen on a daily basis!

Afterall, doesn't Red know that the housing and mortgage market, along with banks and lenders, are having a great time now because so much homes were purchased on credit?

[Greg M]

......ah I here check. That's ok by me now. Of course CC really makes my day, but this is the first time I can recall hearing check.....

Hope credit cards 100% of purchase price will be the call at the end of the day, but i feel better now hearing check and not wire transfer.

:shiftyph34r:

Well check was mention in the very first post...but seriously what is the hang up w/ wire transfer, it is the same thing as a check only faster.

[donatello b]

"accepted via wire transfer or cash equivalent (such as money order, Cashier’s Check, or personal check drawn from a United States bank). "

re: personal checks/money orders/cashier check - for persons outside US you must look at "drawn from US bank"

[Unwounded]

yeah right...... I'm looking foward to picking up my back up Red when they start going into foreclosure late next year :shifty:

[Johnny Friday]

Well check was mention in the very first post...but seriously what is the hang up w/ wire transfer, it is the same thing as a check only faster.

Sorry, I did not catch that in the beginning. All i saw was Kelly's post---WIRE INSTRUCTIONS--

I suppose your right about there not being much differance about a check and wire transfer....something about having a legal tender piece of paper that makes me feel good--nothing more. Call it my realm of comfort--not yours, only mine.

[Johnny Friday]

"accepted via wire transfer or cash equivalent (such as money order, Cashier’s Check, or personal check drawn from a United States bank). "

re: personal checks/money orders/cashier check - for persons outside US you must look at "drawn from US bank"

........Goes without saying.......

[Greg M]

Sorry, I did not catch that in the beginning. All i saw was Kelly's post---WIRE INSTRUCTIONS--

I suppose your right about there not being much differance about a check and wire transfer....something about having a legal tender piece of paper that makes me feel good--nothing more. Call it my realm of comfort--not yours, only mine.

believe it or not the bank gives you a receipt for a wire transfer.

[Johnny Friday]

believe it or not the bank gives you a receipt for a wire transfer.

REALLY?? I was not aware of that. Thanks so much for that bit of information???

....has nothing to do with a receipt for my payment.

[Greg M]

REALLY?? I was not aware of that. Thanks so much for that bit of information???

....has nothing to do with a receipt for my payment.

Well, if you are really that concerned they can provide proof of delivery to Reds bank...but at that point you would be opening a box that FedEx just delivered and playing with your new toy.
What confuses me is that you guys gave the man a $1000...on total faith that he would produce this camera. Now that you have seen footage and even the camera you are doubting that he will ship it...maybe pre-orders just arent for you.

[Jack Wester]

So for all you angry people. Why not hand over you reserveration to me and forget about the whole thing?

I would be THRILLED to receive payment instructions, even if it WAS a breifcase full of unmarked small bills on a parking lot. I'd risk it!!! Take a loan. Rob a bank. Steal from your friends and family. Just pay the man!

[Rob Powell]

Anyway, I hate all these film and industry people telling me how it is, as if they really earn money with their cameras, yeah right. $40,000 credit card purchases are completely normal and happen on a daily basis!

The problem in this CC discussion is that there are exceptions to every rule. I've charged $30K items on my Amex and then had an on-line store refuse a $200 Amex charge becuz the fees were too high.

The jist is that Red has the right to make their own payment terms based upon their margin and any other arbitrary reasons they choose. Their ONLY fault might be that they did not disclose the terms earlier in the process and many assumed that CC's would be OK.

That said, those that let go of this issue and start arranging alternatives instead of pressuring Red will probably be the one's holding cameras in the months ahead.

RA Post

[Password Expired]

So for all you angry people. Why not hand over you reserveration to me and forget about the whole thing?

I would be THRILLED to receive payment instructions, even if it WAS a breifcase full of unmarked small bills on a parking lot. I'd risk it!!! Take a loan. Rob a bank. Steal from your friends and family. Just pay the man!

Jack, reservations cannot be transferred. But I will sell you my camera when I receive it next week. Please send payment via wire transfer to my bank, First National American USA Bank of National American Firsts. Account 12345678.

Wire transfer is completely valid as a payment option afterall. Or if you prefer, meet me in the parking lot near your house. I am in the trenchcoat in the alley smoking a cigarette.

/me stops being silly now

[Password Expired]

Hey RA Post, I agree with you. I think if Red took credit cards, that's great. If not, then time to come up with Plan B.

[Jason Laramy]

skip to the lue

[Noelle]

WOW ZAK!
cool picture...who took that?!

O wait I did..boo ya!




In Case you Missed my post on the other one:


Buyer must pay the full remaining balance of the invoice before order will be processed for shipment. Balance payments in the amount of $7,500 USD or greater will only be accepted via wire transfer or cash equivalent (such as money order, Cashier’s Check, or personal check drawn from a United States bank). Balance payments in the amount of $7,499.99 USD or less may be remitted via credit card payments, wire transfer or cash equivalent as outlined above.

Approximately 30 days before anticipated ship date RED will contact each customer to discuss final payment and method to release product to customer

[Learvis Templeton jr.]

What confuses me is that you guys gave the man a $1000...on total faith that he would produce this camera. Now that you have seen footage and even the camera you are doubting that he will ship it...maybe pre-orders just arent for you.

This is unreal I have to agree giving $1000 on faith then questioning if the company going to ship the camera. I don't do much posting but come on. This isn't B&H you're dealing directly with the company. They laid out how payment will be accepted. Now you don't trust the man?! I been reading these posts all day and I understand how some planned to use the CC's to pay the camera off. You can call Red up and see if there are other options. But don't rip the company because they don't take the whole amount on CC and tell them how to collect the money. I sure they took that into acount when they came up with the plan. I would call them rather then posting. If they stand firm then I would come up with a plan to get the other funds. I not going to to tell you well get another camera or welcome to the big leagues or some other BS. I would hope you come up with a plan so you still get your RED. I'm glad I have my funds sitting in the bank till my number comes up.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

WOW ZAK!
cool picture...who took that?!

O wait I did..boo ya!

your amazing at clicking the right button on the imac! and im amazing at being a male model

[Jack Wester]

Please send payment via wire transfer to my bank, First National American USA Bank of National American Firsts. Account 12345678.
Money sent. Awaiting camera.

[Johnny Friday]

Well, if you are really that concerned they can provide proof of delivery to Reds bank...but at that point you would be opening a box that FedEx just delivered and playing with your new toy.
What confuses me is that you guys gave the man a $1000...on total faith that he would produce this camera. Now that you have seen footage and even the camera you are doubting that he will ship it...maybe pre-orders just arent for you.

What???? who said anything about doubting the camera would ship? $1k is a far cry from $40k. But i am a little guy....never claimed to be much more. you sound like a giant of a rental company that can afforde more risk than myself. I never said i doubted red. I am uncomfortable with wire transfers---just in case you did no hear me the first time. I wire transfer all the time to my regular vendors and still I hope that they don't get in a car wreck the next day or some other kind of tradedy arises. I understand you are comfortable with talking about it and you are loctated not far from the source. you have more insight and are a wiser man than myself i'm sure.

[Greg M]

What???? who said anything about doubting the camera would ship? I am uncomfortable with wire transfers---just in case you did no hear me the first time. I wire transfer all the time to my regular vendors and still I hope that they don't get in a car wreck the next day or some other kind of tradedy arises.

They have meds for this :)

btw- I am just a small company...no wiser than you.

[Evan Owen]

From Mom,

"I want to believe 100% in the Red Company and it products. That being said I also must trust 30 years of business experience and a red flag has shot up when I read about the method of payment that is being floated for the RED.

Sorry Jack (and mom), but I have to agree with the general consensus here. While wire-transfers are sometimes abused, they are still a legitimate and accepted form of payment in the business world. And like Zak has clarified, if you so desire, you can put almost half of it on a CC and send a check for the rest.

There's nothing about anything RED has done to suggest they're hiding anything. In fact, they're as far from a scam as you can get. They've been completely open through the whole process. If you have any doubts as to their legitimacy (or your ability to come up with the money), you might want to consider sending your reservation back.

I personally don't mind paying in cash. In fact, I usually do. As MY mom always used to say, never get into debt if you can absolutely help it. :wink:

[Sanjin Jukic]

What about an old WESTERN UNION payment option???

930

http://www.westernunion.com/info/selectCountry.asp

[Johnny Friday]

.....This has gotten funny. Whatever the case....i'll send you some of my meds as well. They are much cheaper in mexico and I don't have to go to my bank for a loan to get a bottle....

I'm out of the discussion for now. I have my money and await my camera. And still won't wire transfer the money. Will go in person with a cashiers check, personal check (drawn on us bank) or meet someone from RED in the parking lot with the loot in a bag.

Much of this seems a moot point now. I am sure final word will come soon enough. Or rather someone from red will reaffirm what has already been said.

...still my point is CC is way easier, convieniant and hassle free for me and has nothing to do with not having the money or finding a better way to come up with the $$...

[Zack Birlew]

DIBS on #634
I will send cash money in a manilla envelope if need be.. the company is definartly real and I definatly want a camera!

CHEERS!

Reservations are non transferable and I never said I was out yet. I don't appreciate your comments and seeing as how you only have 3 posts so far with your particular name and avatar I think you're just wanting to start some trouble.

This is a serious issue that should be talked about, perhaps the boards aren't the best place, but it's better to let people at RED, who are all over these boards themselves, know that there is a problem than to keep things quiet or isolated to one random RED reservation holder's phone call.

Based on comments that are popping up, I don't think a lot of people are reading the entire thread and are instead focusing on the "last page" button to see the current situation. MONEY IS NOT THE ISSUE, THE PAYMENT METHOD IS. I've said this almost every time and still people are assuming that those who have complaints can't afford the camera. This is not true and is a very insulting snap judgment. If that is what you think then keep it to yourself. It doesn't pertain to the real issue.

I hope RED reconsiders and does indeed go with some sort of online ordering system, whether Paypal or the Google thing, or whatever.

Actually, RA Post said it best, RED should have let us in on the payment process earlier. Had I known that, I'm not sure whether I would have put down a reservation or not in the first place. Also, I wouldn't have to worry about my project schedule falling apart should I end up canceling at the last minute after being so close.

But, as I just said, I'm not out of it yet. November is still a few months away and who knows what will happen by then. For now, I'm off this discussion.

[Greg M]

.....This has gotten funny. Whatever the case....i'll send you some of my meds as well. They are much cheaper in mexico and I don't have to go to my bank for a loan to get a bottle....



Thanks, I sent a PM with a list of the drugs I prefer. I'll send a PA with a sack of $1 bills.:sorcerer:

[Johnny Friday]

Thanks, I sent a PM with a list of the drugs I prefer. I'll send a PA with a sack of $1 bills.:sorcerer:

digitalfx.....thanks. Just got your pm...But one question. Why is viagra on your list? Well, i suppose it could help release some built up stress.

send quarters....since I have a collection of them.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Reservations are non transferable and I never said I was out yet.


this is correct. reservations are non transferable

[Learvis Templeton jr.]

Had I known that, I'm not sure whether I would have put down a reservation or not in the first place. Also, I wouldn't have to worry about my project schedule falling apart should I end up canceling at the last minute after being so close.

.

Well I hope you do whatever it takes to get your RED don't sell you're self short I'm sure you'll work up a plan. You're right you are close and you have a few months to get it done! As Denzel Washington said in Training Day "Man Up!"

:watsup:

[Brook Willard]

Easy, everybody...

Give him a break! :)

[Learvis Templeton jr.]

Easy, everybody...

Hey Brook didn't we join the form at the same time and you have almost 2000 post? I give up I'll never catch you!

[Brook Willard]

Hey Brook didn't we join the form at the same time and you have almost 2000 post? I give up I'll never catch you!

Heheh, yeah... it's sad, really. I spend way too much time here.

[Brook Willard]

Per Zakaree's request, I've unstuck this thread and stuck the new official (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3840) thread.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Thanks Brook!

[Greg M]

digitalfx.....thanks. Just got your pm...But one question. Why is viagra on your list? Well, i suppose it could help release some built up stress.

send quarters....since I have a collection of them.

damn!! Thats why I sent the list in a PM...you weren't suppose to expose my problem. now everyone knows!

I have not been able to get it up since pre-ordering. I think its the fear of the unknown.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Though wouldn't that make the purchasing process a whole hell of a lot of fun?

I wonder if the RED guys would be upset if I had an armored car deliver my payment, entirely in sacks of quarters. :usd:

Seriously, I don't see what the big deal is. I've restrained myself quite a bit in stating my real opinion on this whole matter. But cash, check and wire transfer is entirely normal. Not accepting credit cards for large purchases such as this is completely normal. The fact that RED is allowing a portion of the purchase (up to $7500) to be paid by credit card is rather nice of them. I seriously doubt the limitations on credit card amounts are due to (or at least not entirely due to) transaction fees.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

I wonder if the RED guys would be upset if I had an armored car delivery my payment, entirely in sacks of quarters. :usd:
.

http://graysmatter.codivation.com/content/binary/scrooge_money_dive.jpg

[Ace]

If you saw the kind of terms CC processors impose and the kind of absurd control they have over a business, You'd kinda be reluctant to accept fifty something million in CC payment too! The camera is this cheap because of RED's business model (and that includes payment).

[Brook Willard]

I wonder if the RED guys would be upset if I had an armored car deliver my payment, entirely in sacks of quarters. :usd:


One of my roommates last year paid his rent to the landlord in pennies. Hundreds and hundreds of pounds of pennies.

Needless to say, they fixed the leaky shower.

[Ace]

Speaking of metallic tender, In Australia the 5 cent coin, as of May this year is worth 30% more than its currency value in scrap metal.. which means, should you have a million dollars in 5 cent coins.. you stand to make about 300,000$ in profit for scrap metal alone!

[Kevin Halverson]

Speaking of metallic tender, In Australia the 5 cent coin, as of May this year is worth 30% more than its currency value in scrap metal.. which means, should you have a million dollars in 5 cent coins.. you stand to make about 300,000$ in profit for scrap metal alone!

Wow, what is the base metal of this coin and what is its mass?

[chuck colburn]

I brought some kiwi nickles back once (I think they were nickles) and found that they worked at the laundermat. lol

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Speaking of metallic tender, In Australia the 5 cent coin, as of May this year is worth 30% more than its currency value in scrap metal.. which means, should you have a million dollars in 5 cent coins.. you stand to make about 300,000$ in profit for scrap metal alone!

Same here in the USA with copper pennies. The solid copper ones are worth far more as scrap. Copper is currently about $2.85/lb. cash value. It's against the law to scrap currency though.

[Craig Schober]

Based on comments that are popping up, I don't think a lot of people are reading the entire thread and are instead focusing on the "last page" button to see the current situation. MONEY IS NOT THE ISSUE, THE PAYMENT METHOD IS. I've said this almost every time and still people are assuming that those who have complaints can't afford the camera. This is not true and is a very insulting snap judgment. If that is what you think then keep it to yourself. It doesn't pertain to the real issue.

not trying to start trouble here but it does sound like a money issue to me. it sounds like you're planning to spend money that's not yours. you stated that you don't believe red is scamming you or any of us and that you have the money. so if it's truly your money, why not spend it on what you want? i don't know about you but i actually trust red more than visa. i totally planned on using my credit card so this is a minor $20 inconvenience for me (wire transfer fee). so if the camera is destroyed in shipping or never shows up, do you really think red is going to stop answering the phones? no. but is your cc going to question you up and down? don't know about yours but mine sure would and i have good credit.

i run small business so i know the kind of business and convenience a cc brings in but i also know how terrible these merchant accounts are to deal with. they don't protect the business or the consumer. they protect themselves by raising the rates for everyone because of fraud.

if you have the money and trust red, you're not taking anymore of chance than anyone else here.

[R. Gonzales]

Warm regards received... but one question... Why would I or you ever post if we weren't expressing our own point of view or life decisions?

I make no apologies for anything I post. It's easy to think that because we've grown to know Jim and the RED team that we're all friends and friends help friends with money... that somehow they should take your advice on HOW to take your money. They've more than met us half way, by bringing such an amazing bargain to to the market in the first place. Everyone that feels they owe you even more assumes too much, methinks!

RED is an amazing product, but it's not free, nor is it in the range of someone that should be a first time HVX customer. Nor should it be. It's the extreme top end of the market at a lower mid-level price. And that price may force some to put off the purchase, or re-evaluate their needs.

Jim,
No apology is needed. It's just the way your previous post came across. Any way that was my knee-jerk reaction, I would simply prefer to use a Credit card and it has nothing to do with my finances, It’s just my personal preference.

Kind Regards

Method

[number6]

in case anyone missed it, Zakaree is the newest member of the Red team.

he's gonna be handling tech / customer support down the road along with Brent and Shawn.

Uh, oh... I'm in deep do do. I sorta defended Bush on a post awhile back and Zakaree stated he wanted to plant a steel toed boot up Bush's ass. I do hope he will not hold a grudge in case I need tech support etc. :blush:

[Keith Alan Morris]

Uh, oh... I'm in deep do do. I sorta defended Bush on a post awhile back and Zakaree stated he wanted to plant a steel toed boot up Bush's ass. I do hope he will not hold a grudge in case I need tech support etc. :blush:

lol

i agreed with zakaree on giving Bushie a steel-toe enema. does that mean i get favors?

[Omnius]

You sound so pompous, please just speak for yourself and try not to push your sensibilities on to others. Your life decisions are your own and does not reflect the lives and the decisions of others on this board... Just keep it to yourself.

Kindest Regards

Method

Wow.

I don't see Jim's post being anywhere near "pompous". There was nothing affectedly and irritatingly grand, solemn, or self-important about it in the least. He was just being DIRECT and REAL.

This issue has really inflamed some nerves.
I sincerely apologize if I come across as callous and direct here, I just can't understand what the big hang up is.

I personally don't understand why a very small minority of people in here are taking this whole payment issue in such a negative light.
This is BUSINESS. Plain and Simple. There's nothing the matter with how Red wants their payment. Certified Bank Cheque, Cashiers Cheque, Money Order, Personal Cheque or Wire Transfer.

It seems that the only people who have the real problem with the above methods of payment are people who probably need to take a second look at their priorities in life, no offense, but when I hear people bleating and complaining about not being able to use the BANKS money to complete payment for this sort of equipment, and then turn around and say that they do in fact have the money with which to make payment, it all sounds like a whole lot of Bovine Excrement to me, if you know what I mean, and I'm not trying to be mean in saying that, so please keep an open and objective mind with what I'm trying to say here.


From Mom,

. . . I also must trust 30 years of business experience and a red flag has shot up when I read about the method of payment that is being floated for the RED. . .

Red flags?
Sorry, as I sincerely mean no offense to someone's mother, but that's just plain Rubbish.
It's also Rubbish to try to insinuate that Red is attempting to practice some sort of unethical or dodgy business practices with their currently established payment policy.
I would highly suggest that you do a little research. The people at the helm of Red are not some fly by night individuals who have just recently appeared on the business radar screen out of nowhere.
Does anyone here honestly think Red is going to turn around and Rip any of us off? If so, why the hell are you even here?

This company is doing something amazing and wonderful and incredible for all of us concerned. COME ON people! We're talking peanuts here compared to what else is out there, and there's complaints?


This is a serious issue that should be talked about. . . .

No, it's not "A serious issue that should be talked about". . . Red is giving you FIVE different methods of paying from how I'm seeing it. Each method is normal, legitimate and in no way out of the ordinary, regardless of what your mother's 30 years of business experience might tell her.
This is only a serious issue for people who can't seriously put their money where their mouth is. It's not that big of a deal. Send Cash, Cheque, Money Order or Wire Transfer. Sounds pretty simple and forward to me.


MONEY IS NOT THE ISSUE, THE PAYMENT METHOD IS. . .


I think the money is in fact the primary and central issue here and payment method has got nothing to do with it.
Once again. You want the Camera? You Got the Money? . . . Do you REALLY got the money? Cool!
You've got a number of fair options by which to pay.
Cash, Cheque, Money Order, or Wire Transfer.

[regista]

Obviously, make or break "small details" like this should be stated in advance, to avoid precisely the kind of reaction seen in previous posts here today. By not having made these specific terms patently clear in advance, it is easy to see why buyers simply thought the full balance outstanding would be automatically charged to the credit card used in the original transaction. It's common sense in the absence of specific information to the contrary. Had it been stated right off the bat, I'm sure many orders would not have been placed at all.

Because of this little "oversight," now those buyers directly affected by the revised payment terms will be punished for nothing more innocent than entering into an ill-defined commercial transaction in Good Faith. Not fair in my book.

I think the least RED can do now is to contact everyone who ordered a camera to notify them of these new payment conditions, with as much time in advance as possible to the actual order fulfillment date. Not everyone who ordered a RED subscribes or reads this forum on a regular basis, you know?

[number6]

lol

i agreed with zakaree on giving Bushie a steel-toe enema. does that mean i get favors?

You're in like Flynn

[Jim Arthurs]

Jim,
No apology is needed. It's just the way your previous post came across. Any way that was my knee-jerk reaction, I would simply prefer to use a Credit card and it has nothing to do with my finances, It’s just my personal preference.

Kind Regards

Method

It's all good. Bottom line, I sincerely hope everyone can get their RED in the way that works best for them.

This has been an amazing thread... certainly the most Alice in Wonderland moments I've seen yet on this forum. In fact...

... I petition we start a new sub-forum called M.A.D. (Mothers Against RED)

[Poi Boy]

Supported Bush..so you are the ONE.
-A

[number6]

Life.... life has been hard for me. Most people walk through a pasture and look doun and see shit, and walk around it. I walk in the same pasture and look up... and see bird shit falling from the sky and into my eye, from a very large bird. If my having to pay for the camera the way Kelly said is my bird flying overhead, then that is a very small bird. Forgive me if I sound like some Wallyanna. I know that others have higher expectations from life.

[number6]

Supported Bush..so you are the ONE.
-A

Yeah, everybody was piling on, and I can't help but stand up for the underdog.:blush:

[Brook Willard]

Everybody chill...

[Poi Boy]

chill ???
-A

[number6]

It's all in good fun.

[Omnius]

Everybody chill...

:cold:

[Brook Willard]

Heheh, I wasn't referring to the most recent discussion... older stuff... damn lack of reloading pages before I reply...

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Uh, oh... I'm in deep do do. I sorta defended Bush on a post awhile back and Zakaree stated he wanted to plant a steel toed boot up Bush's ass. I do hope he will not hold a grudge in case I need tech support etc. :blush:

im not political.. dont worry:)
You will get excellent tech service from me no matter what!
:sorcerer:

[Zakaree Sandberg]

ps.. just so you know.. my tech stuff will be round the clock:) i am a machine.. i eat breath and sleep red.. so rest assured:)

[Unwounded]

Wow.

I don't see Jim's post being anywhere near "pompous". There was nothing affectedly and irritatingly grand, solemn, or self-important about it in the least. He was just being DIRECT and REAL.



It seems that the only people who have the real problem with the above methods of payment are people who probably need to take a second look at their priorities in life, no offense, but when I hear people bleating and complaining about not being able to use the BANKS money to complete payment for this sort of equipment, and then turn around and say that they do in fact have the money with which to make payment, it all sounds like a whole lot of Bovine Excrement to me, if you know what I mean, and I'm not trying to be mean in saying that, so please keep an open and objective mind with what I'm trying to say here.



This company is doing something amazing and wonderful and incredible for all of us concerned. COME ON people! We're talking peanuts here compared to what else is out there, and there's complaints?



No, it's not "A serious issue that should be talked about". . . Red is giving you FIVE different methods of paying from how I'm seeing it. Each method is normal, legitimate and in no way out of the ordinary, regardless of what your mother's 30 years of business experience might tell her.
This is only a serious issue for people who can't seriously put their money where their mouth is. It's not that big of a deal. Send Cash, Cheque, Money Order or Wire Transfer. Sounds pretty simple and forward to me.

I think the money is in fact the primary and central issue here and payment method has got nothing to do with it.
Once again. You want the Camera? You Got the Money? . . . Do you REALLY got the money? Cool!
You've got a number of fair options by which to pay.
Cash, Cheque, Money Order, or Wire Transfer.

This has less to do with payment method than it does with really being able to afford this camera. This package is super amazing for it's price..... but it's still a LOT OF MONEY. I think the people who are REALLY peaved are upset that their bubble has finally been burst. This is still a really expensive package to put together and not everybody can afford it. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk but not everyone can have everything the want, that's just life. I'd love to have a 69 porsche roadster but you know what,.....I CANT AFFORD IT....and some people can't afford (TO OWN)a red package. Sorry.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Wait... 30 years of business sense tells you that someone not accepting a credit card for a large charge is fishy? Sure but:

Raise your hand if you pay a mortgage.

Ok.

Now raise your hand if you can make a mortgage payment on a Credit Card.

That's what I thought.

Now let's stop this bickering. Credit cards are for buying a slurpy at 7-11 and new inkjet printers.

If RED stiffs you for $40,000 and you for god knows why aren't willing to spend a few hundred for an attorney then there is always our friend the attorney general's office who lives to harass people into giving you money owed. Greatest Government Office Ever. Because the great thing about someone breaking the law is, it doesn't cost you a dime to get the law enforced you just have to alert the tax-funded machine that it needs to prosecute (or usually threaten to prosecute) a person attempting to break the law.

If your RED camera shows up and it's busted as hell the first question you ask yourself is "Did I buy insurance for this package?"

If the answer is "No." Shoot self in face.

If the answer is "Yes." Immediately ensure the UPS man hasn't left your sight yet, if you accept the package... it's yours. CHECK YOUR PACKAGE BEFORE SIGNING.

Ok. So now you have your RED. But it stops working 2 days later. The second question you ask yourself is "Does RED have a warranty?" If you don't know the answer.. see shoot self in face. If the answer is no.. Also see shoot-self-in-face. If you were diligent in your shopping and ensured that RED offered a legitimate warranty then you're fine. Ship it back. If RED refuses to uphold their warranty (See attorney general).

The simple fact of the matter is, you're not really getting any extra protection from your credit card that isn't offered through shipping insurance and the simple fact that RED will probably come with a respectable warranty.

It's in RED's best financial interest to keep you happy. Especially the first few thousand. It doesn't matter how good the hardware is in this industry if you're known not to take care of your customers. I'm sure RED wants to continue selling products for years to come so why would they let someone run around screaming to the heavens that RED doesn't honor their contracts? For what? To save a few hundred dollars? I'm sure their warranty policy will be insured so that their asses are covered if the factory in Taiwan has been producing key components out of chewing gum and arsenic so they don't care if it's broken or not, they've already payed their end of the bargain as it is.

-----------------

Would I wire 40k to someone on ebay? No. Because it's a wire-transfer? No, because I'm afraid the person isn't real and has got nothing to lose. The only reason you can be afraid of wiring money to a legitimate company is because you don't trust them. Do I trust them? No. I've never met a single one of them. Do I trust that it would be financial suicide for them to screw me? Absolutely! And in the end that's all that's important.

[Álex Montoya]

What's the point in showing off your youth if it shows so much?

And I wouldn't define Jim's post as pompous but as a bit patronizing.

[Curran Giddens]

Would I wire 40k to someone on ebay? No. Because it's a wire-transfer? No, because I'm afraid the person isn't real and has got nothing to lose. The only reason you can be afraid of wiring money to a legitimate company is because you don't trust them. Do I trust them? No. I've never met a single one of them. Do I trust that it would be financial suicide for them to screw me? Absolutely! And in the end that's all that's important.

I've never met any of the RED team, but I absolutely trust them. In fact, they are probably one of the few companies that I do trust and I'm sure they will provide excellent service and support. I bet the real reason that people want to use credit cards is to collect on all the various gimmicks that the credit card companies use to reel you in. Cash back, airline tickets, bonus points.... I wanted to collect some membership rewards points on my AMEX, so I could get a couple free items from amazon.com or other online retailer. But if RED has to pay 3.5% on $40k+ in processing fees, thats $1,400!

I feel like I'm already getting such a good deal that the least I can do is respect RED's preferred payment methods. I will just send a personal check the day I am contacted by RED for payment 30 days prior to shipment. No extra fees involved for either party. And 30 days is plenty of time for the check to get mailed to RED and then cleared in the bank.

[number6]

im not political.. dont worry:)
You will get excellent tech service from me no matter what!
:sorcerer:

Whew!

Although I expect the camera to work flawlessly and the manual to be well-written and well-interpreted in China by Chinese manual writers, still you never know. And just like it was once good policy to be on good terms with whomever was cooking your food, now-a-days its a good idea to be on good terms with tech support. Look forward to working with you Zakaree, should the need arise. Congratulations on your appointment to the Red Team!

P.S., I am a bit of a mercenary, myself, and will disavow Bush or Susan B. Anthony, Castro... anyone, if it helps me get good tech support. Just point out who, and I will disavow them immediately! edit: All except Finner. I'd go to the mat for that guy. Him I will not disavow!!! Not today, anyway.

[Rob Powell]

I bet the real reason that people want to use credit cards is to collect on all the various gimmicks that the credit card companies use to reel you in. Cash back, airline tickets, bonus points....

This is probably truer than people will admit. I'd pick up the bonus points if RED allowed CC payment! Why not? But I think the bottom line is that CC's are "easy" debt. The banks flood you with offers all the time, and sometime with good terms (0% for 12 mos.). So I understand that it is just easier to use this form of credit.

If, as some state, they "have the money," there is no legit reason not to pay by check or wire other than to get some type of CC bonus (see quote above).


FYI for those of you who do not ship valuable items frequently, RED's responsibility ends at their warehouse door. Damage during shipment is the responsibility of the carrier. So you better have insurance or you will be out of luck. HORROR STORY--I had Fedex smash an Anvil case with a $50K Digibeta VTR inside. (There were tire tracks on the case) They refused to pay the claim stating that "it had been improperly packed.":ranting2:

RA Post

[Omnius]

.....
FYI for those of you who do not ship valuable items frequently, RED's responsibility ends at their warehouse door. Damage during shipment is the responsibility of the carrier. So you better have insurance or you will be out of luck. HORROR STORY--I had Fedex smash an Anvil case with a $50K Digibeta VTR inside. (There were tire tracks on the case) They refused to pay the claim stating that "it had been improperly packed.":ranting2:

RA Post

Ouch!
Sincerely. . I feel this strange pain in my gut just thinking about it.
Such loss. That would have broken my heart.

INSURANCE INSURANCE INSURANCE

[canred]

I have zero problem with the payment methods. I hate credit cards and have only one that I use for travel or emergencies. I paid for my deposit with a wire transfer and will pay the balance the same way. As for not trusting RED, how long does anyone think they would be in business if they stiffed someone? This company did not come from a background that warrants this kind of concern. If I were a RED team member I would be offended by this sort of suggestion. I have started and run two successful businesses and I would take this sort of suggestion very seriously! Until there is some evidence to corroborate underhanded dealings, I suggest everyone give RED the benefit of the doubt they deserve.

As for payment methods, RED is a company that has a product for sale. They have been very forthright about the product and time frames warts and all. They have a right to determine what payment methods they will except. As customers we have a right to except those terms or find the nearest exit and use it! RED has always stated that the deposits are fully refundable and I've not heard of any problems with refunds. Most companies use deposits as a means to cover themselves in case a customer cancels an order. In REDS case they seem to be using the deposit as merely a place holder and thats really nice for their customers. I appreciate the work they are doing and look forward to receiving my RED as soon as possible. Most of us will also have considerable time to get feedback from the early reservation holders gving us time to evaluate the product and it's suitability for our purposes.


Tom

[Jeff Kilgroe]

HORROR STORY--I had Fedex smash an Anvil case with a $50K Digibeta VTR inside. (There were tire tracks on the case) They refused to pay the claim stating that "it had been improperly packed.":ranting2:

Ouch... Something wasn't handled properly there... It should have been insured at some point by someone.

I ship lots and lots of expensive items of all sizes. It is not entirely true that someone is clear of responsibility for an item as soon as it leaves their premises. This is a muddy area though and laws differ from one place to another, even between states in the US. In most situations, the responsibility for the item lies with the shipping company and whoever contracted that shipping company (the sender in most cases). Many mail order vendors will try to make the customer eat the shipping charges on items that were received in damaged condition. This is completely unethical, but it happens all the time. Good vendors (Amazon, B&H, etc.. don't do this). Shipping insurance is always a good idea when shipping anything of value. Be sure proper insurance is actually paid for as part of the shipping expense, or even procured through a third party. Simply declaring a value with the shipper doesn't always mean that it's insured. In your "horror story" with UPS crushing the $50K VTR, it most certainly wasn't insured properly. UPS does not typically insure items with that sort of value -- except for their airmail envelopes and small overnight boxes for documents or precious gems/metals -- the most common insurance claim is usually theft in those situations. Third party coverage is almost always needed and desired because UPS insurance rates are insanely high. BTW: I've received a few of the dreaded tire-mark packages myself.

[R. Gonzales]

Wow.


It seems that the only people who have the real problem with the above methods of payment are people who probably need to take a second look at their priorities in life, no offense, but when I hear people bleating and complaining about not being able to use the BANKS money to complete payment for this sort of equipment, and then turn around and say that they do in fact have the money with which to make payment, it all sounds like a whole lot of Bovine Excrement to me, if you know what I mean, and I'm not trying to be mean in saying that, so please keep an open and objective mind with what I'm trying to say here.



ominous |?äm?n?s| adjective giving the impression that something bad or unpleasant is going to happen; threatening; inauspicious

My real problem is with some of the language being used to describe those who complain. Some of the coments seem to sugest that there are some who sit in an omnipotent position knowing the financing of others. And then casting judgment in the guise of an opinion.

People have the right to complain, so let them and don't judge.

It's Red's choice how they wish to sell their product. And it's the customer's choice if they wish to purchase that product.

Kind Regards


Method

[Teague Kennedy]

HORROR STORY--I had Fedex smash an Anvil case with a $50K Digibeta VTR inside. (There were tire tracks on the case) They refused to pay the claim stating that "it had been improperly packed.":ranting2:

RA Post

I payed for insurance and had a Beta SP deck damaged by Fed Ex and they refused to pay because my wife signed when they dropped it off. We took them to court and won. If there is ANY indication that there is damage make a note of it when you sign. (Or take the thing out while the guy is standing there and plug it in.) These shipping companies do not play nice even if you pay for insurance.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

All these stories are making me feel very fortunate that I live close enough to RED HQ to pick up my kit in person.

My takeaway from this is if I get a package that looks anything short of pristine I will take several digital snaps of the box prior to opening just in case there's a problem. I would think that tire tracks would make the shipping company look bad, but, in the distorted world of insurance - who knows...

Does anybody out there have a positive story about insurance stepping up and covering them? I am looking to upgrade my insurance to a carrier that has more experience in our business. My current policy is with a company that asks me questions that reveal their ignorance and I fear that if I did need to make a claim I might be in for a rude surprise in the fine print.

Does anybody have a strategy for covering the true value of the RedOne in the first 6 months when it is for all intents and purposes "irreplaceable"?

[Rob Powell]

HORRO STORY Postscript--Just so you don't think I'm a complete idiot and took a bath on my $50K VTR. The problem came back to Sony who had shipped the deck back to me (after repairs) and did not insure it. Sony quit insuring equip becuz Fedex and UPS would seldom honor the claims, (as in my case), so they "self-insure." Thus, Sony paid to replace my DigiBeta and Anvil case. Happy ending.

RA Post

[JustinGD]

Does anybody out there have a positive story about insurance stepping up and covering them?

Yes I do, and I've also got a bridge for sale!

I wish this topic hadn't been brought to my attention. I'm still 4 or 5 months away, but now I'm freaking out about how I'm going to get my camera and protect it. What if someone wants to steal it? Is there a spot on the camera I can chain to a doberman?

[Craig Meadows]

For large purchases we always use either a commercial bank loan or one of the many broadcast finance companies out there. If you are a commercial entity (i.e., real business with a tax i.d. no.) securing and paying off credit this way helps to establish and maintain your commercial credit score/history for future loans for bigger things other than gear; like real estate, vehicles, etc.

The bank loan rather than a leasing company is often the better way to go as the interest is usually more agreeable, although you can negotiate rates to some extent with either. There are many tax advantages to leasing. Often a personal guarantee is required. Just make sure you understand the end of lease terms. Usually you can walk away at the end of the lease or purchase the leased item for either a 10% buyout, $1 buyout, or current market value buyout.

However, my personal Visa/MasterCard bank is always sending me checks to use with the card. Write a check to yourself with the cc check, deposit it in your regular checking account then pay for RED with that.

[Greg M]

WOW- too much stress...take a deep breath, I have been shipping gear for 25 years and I dont have any horror stories.

Equipment insurance covers your gear in transit...if you can afford the camera you can afford insurance.
Insurance is not an option, especially if you are taking out a loan. But even if you are paying cash, insurance should be part of your business plan...if its not you shouldnt be spending this kind of money.

[Sean]

ominous |?äm?n?s| adjective giving the impression that something bad or unpleasant is going to happen; threatening; inauspicious

My real problem is with some of the language being used to describe those who complain. Some of the coments seem to sugest that there are some who sit in an omnipotent position knowing the financing of others. And then casting judgment in the guise of an opinion.

People have the right to complain, so let them and don't judge.

It's Red's choice how they wish to sell their product. And it's the customer's choice if they wish to purchase that product.

Kind Regards


Method

Yup. I totally agree. I don't know why some folks seem to feel it's fitting to prescribe the "business model" and financing plan of others like it's some sort of scripture from heaven. There's some really good advice and ideas in this thread on how to pay for and get safe delivery of your Red Camera! But there's some really high-handed and somewhat condescending preaching. In the end, may the best film win. ;-)

[JustinGD]

I wanted to use a credit card and pay it off the same day. Most Visa cards (as far as I know) cover purchases against everything (loss, damage, theft) for 90 days from purchase. That is a big deal, especially when getting something shipped.

(sorry if this point has already been brought up, I havn't read all 20 pages of this thread)

[Greg M]

I wanted to use a credit card and pay it off the same day. Most Visa cards (as far as I know) cover purchases against everything (loss, damage, theft) for 90 days from purchase. That is a big deal, especially when getting something shipped.

(sorry if this point has already been brought up, I havn't read all 20 pages of this thread)

Your insurance policy will cover all of this. Also I always insure my shipments, they generally get better treatment this way as they are marked in the system as "high-value".

[Rob Powell]

Your insurance policy will cover all of this. Also I always insure my shipments, they generally get better treatment this way as they are marked in the system as "high-value".

I've had several insurance vendors over the years and, in my experience, only true "production insurance" covers common carriers. So, while you are correct, many "equipment" policies would not cover the gear in transit. Be sure to read the fine print.

Regarding VISA covering the item in transit, I'm skeptical. Have you read the fine print in those little booklets they send out? Maybe they will, but I'd double check before counting on it. Plus, it would likely only cover up to the amount charged i.e. $7500 in this case.

RA Post

[Greg M]

I've had several insurance vendors over the years and, in my experience, only true "production insurance" covers common carriers. So, while you are correct, many "equipment" policies would not cover the gear in transit. Be sure to read the fine print.

Regarding VISA covering the item in transit, I'm skeptical. Have you read the fine print in those little booklets they send out? Maybe they will, but I'd double check before counting on it. Plus, it would likely only cover up to the amount charged i.e. $7500 in this case.

RA Post

Well yes...production insurance is what I meant!!
Dont go cheap on insurance, unless you like to gamble.

[Rob Powell]

Well yes...production insurance is what I meant!!
Dont go cheap on insurance, unless you like to gamble.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you didn't know the difference. (Poor grammatical structure). Was making a more general statement for others who may have never bought insurance or be aware of the difference.

RA Post

[Omnius]

ominous |?äm?n?s| adjective giving the impression that something bad or unpleasant is going to happen; threatening; inauspicious

Dyslexia. Noun.
A general term for a disorder involving the difficulty to read or understand words, letters or other symbols.
"O" "M" "N" "I" "U" "S". . . Omnius.
Obviously you read "ominous" by mistake :poster_oops:




People have the right to complain. . . .

That is absolutely correct my friend, people do have the right to complain.
I never questioned anyones rights to anything. I just don't see the logic in complaining because it's not going to get you anywhere, or anyone else for that matter.

There's an old axiom that I believe is very appropriate in this sort of situation. . . "Deal With It".

Maybe someone should start a forum specifically for complaints under the heading of "Complaint Department". I don't know.
Would that be beneficial to you?

I just find it rather silly and unproductive to complain about a particular situation when your complaint is unlikely to change the outcome of that particular situation, especially when you have the ultimate choice. Either accept the way things are and find a method with which to successfully navigate within established parameters, or turn around and walk away from that which is causing you so much anguish that you feel the need to complain about it.

What I think people do not have the right to do is to attempt to insinuate that RED is some sort of dodgy, illegitimate, fly by night, snake oil scam operation because they won't take someone's Credit Card as full payment for a very incredible and significant piece of equipment.

I sincerely hope everyone who has set their hearts on getting this camera ends up seeing their hopes and dreams come true, and in the end they will be proud owners of a very beautiful piece of hardware.

Complaining doesn't do anyone any good, though it does make for some very interesting reading.

[Brook Willard]

Why the fighting? Can't we all just... get along?

[Andrew Benz]

ps.. just so you know.. my tech stuff will be round the clock:) i am a machine.. i eat breath and sleep red.. so rest assured:)

Hey Zakaree, congratulations on your new job, I am really happy for you my man.:usd: Not only do you get to work with the most badass camera... you get to work w/ Kelly and Noelle... So how are the New Oakley "Blinders" working?:)

Cheers---Andrew

[Omnius]

There's a fight?
Where?
Did I miss it?

[Keith Alan Morris]

Why the fighting? Can't we all just... get along?

Seriously. One guy corrects another's spelling, but uses improper punctuation in the same sentence.

[Brook Willard]

I'm just having fun with you guys.

[Omnius]

Seriously. One guy corrects another's spelling, but uses improper punctuation in the same sentence.

Bugger! Does that mean I have to hit the edit button? LOL

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Hey Zakaree, congratulations on your new job, I am really happy for you my man.:usd: Not only do you get to work with the most badass camera... you get to work w/ Kelly and Noelle... So how are the New Oakley "Blinders" working?:)

Cheers---Andrew

thanks Andrew!
its amazing working for RED i love it!!
I get to work with the BEST people ever:)
dream job for sure

[Andrew Benz]

Dude, I remember many posts where you stated that "Hey Guys if you need any help, I am just ten minutes away." with the attitude that no job was too small... I felt at that time that it would only BE a MATTER of time for your opportunity. I got into the biz in a similar manner... taking an internship with one the South's Largest Film Production companies during a summer break from Columbia College in Chicago. I worked for free for four months, ten to eighteen hours a day five to seven days a week. I scared the shit out of some the peolpe there, they gave me my own keys and keycodes-- they were tired of coming back at midnight to lock up after the first week. I got job as a cameraman after the four months... never went back to Columbia. Anyway... just a little background on why I am happy for you and how persistence pays off!

Also, if you guys need any help with the Boot Camps or anything else please let me know... this is the only company that has ever inspired me to want to give as much as possible to their development! Though I am not ten minutes away, I am fifteen minutes away from the airport and just a pm away... Please take me up on it.

Cheers-- Andrew Benz

[number6]

Why the fighting? Can't we all just... get along?

Oh, right... when trying to promote peace, just quote Rodney King. Sorry Brook, without the bruises, your words are hollow.

[R. Gonzales]

Dyslexia. Noun.
A general term for a disorder involving the difficulty to read or understand words, letters or other symbols.
"O" "M" "N" "I" "U" "S". . . Omnius.
Obviously you read "ominous" by mistake :poster_oops:

Yeah, I sure did, it makes more sense now. I think my eyes are getting old or I'm projection.




Dyslexia
That is absolutely correct my friend, people do have the right to complain.
I never questioned anyones rights to anything. I just don't see the logic in complaining because it's not going to get you anywhere, or anyone else for that matter.

Say you... If people of the world did not complain change would never happen. with enough voices anything is possible. Once again you like some make comments that you have no absolute knowledge of.


Dyslexia
There's an old axiom that I believe is very appropriate in this sort of situation. . . "Deal With It".


Do you actually think that's a positive stance for a company to take? For instance when a car company realizes it has sold cars with break pads that burn out too quickly. Do you think that saying to their customers "Deal With It" helps them stay in Business? I think not.


Dyslexia
Maybe someone should start a forum specifically for complaints under the heading of "Complaint Department". I don't know.
Would that be beneficial to you?


Ha! You’re so cute. I think what may be beneficial is for some to not be so judgmental of others.


Dyslexia
I just find it rather silly and unproductive to complain about a particular situation when your complaint is unlikely to change the outcome of that particular situation, especially when you have the ultimate choice. Either accept the way things are and find a method with which to successfully navigate within established parameters, or turn around and walk away from that which is causing you so much anguish that you feel the need to complain about it.


Omnius yes and no, stranger things have happened, but one will never know unless you try. Look at the Red one, who would have thought a company would volunteer to produce a 4K-camera system at a price point that totally goes against the established norm.


Dyslexia
What I think people do not have the right to do is to attempt to insinuate that RED is some sort of dodgy, illegitimate, fly by night, snake oil scam operation because they won't take someone's Credit Card as full payment for a very incredible and significant piece of equipment.


I whole-heartedly agree with you on this one.



Dyslexia
Complaining doesn't do anyone any good, though it does make for some very interesting reading.

Again I cant' completely agree with you on that, of course you are entitled to your opinion.


Dyslexia
I sincerely hope everyone who has set their hearts on getting this camera ends up seeing their hopes and dreams come true, and in the end they will be proud owners of a very beautiful piece of hardware.


Yeah, I'm with you on that one friend. And now that Reds are starting to be delivered I am truly excited. And looking forward to shooting my first Red Code Raw Project.

Question... what type of music do you like? (I know Odd question.)

Kind Regards


Method

[Jeff Kilgroe]

It is time for this thread to die... Seriously.