Epic FF35 vs Epic-X S35 in high ISO shooting

[richard peterson]

Any idea of the difference between FF35 and S35 in shooting with high ISO. How dose the size of the photosites compare between the two epic models.

Here is the D3s at 12800 with no post noise reduction. Any chance of getting close...

http://ftp.robgalbraith.com/public_files/D3S_ISO12800_Trio.jpg

Richard Peterson

[Tom Lowe]

Well, I don't think the size of the sensor or photosites is what to look at. The new 1Dm4 is supposed to have ridiculous low-light capabilities, and it's not full-frame.

What will give the FFF35 Epic an advantage is that it is a 3rd generation Red sensor, and so just by default -- and by general trends in imaging -- it will probably have much better low-light capabilities. That's my guess anyway.

Light sensitivity is a huge, huge factor now, and all these camera companies know it now.

[Gunleik Groven]

A bigger sensor Will give some noise advantages, because when you scale down to whatever deliveryformat. the grains become "smaller" relatively spoken.

But Tom is right on.

G

[Kenneth Elkington]

FF35 is at least a year away, so we really have no idea how big of a difference there will be in any aspects.

[Stephen Pruitt]

Good lord, I'm guessing that Stage III Epic-X cameras may be almost a year away. I'd bet on two years for FF35.

Stephen

[Michael Neborak]

Good lord, I'm guessing that Stage III Epic-X cameras may be almost a year away. I'd bet on two years for FF35.

Stephen

Are you kidding? Have you been reading any of Jim's posts? The first Epic-X's (tatoos) will be shipped out before the end of this year...

[Gunleik Groven]

Are you kidding? Have you been reading any of Jim's posts? The first Epic-X's (tatoos) will be shipped out before the end of this year...

Actually, the first Epics were to come around NAB, this year...

I think they will be here. Suddenly. At some time. When they're happy. Sorta. Be that tomorrow or in a year...

[Stephen Pruitt]

Gunleik is right. We'll see it when we see it.

But I'm guessing we won't be at Stage 3 until fall of next year. Why? Because I'd need mine before that, as we start shooting "Terminal" in September, and almost nothing that I ever want ever comes on time. Believe it or not, the first RED One I ordered (#2217) didn't arrive until the very last day of filming on "Works in Progress." Figuring that there would be delays, however, I went ahead and purchased two places in line so that we could shoot "Works in Progress" on the One. Unfortunately, I don't have the cash to do Tattoo.

Stephen

[Tom Lowe]

You guys are making me depressed. I hope Red gets these cameras out much sooner than that!

[Andrew Walker]

You guys are making me depressed. I hope Red gets these cameras out much sooner than that!

Plan for the worst, hope for the best. I believe RED will have stages 2-4 out in time for NAB. More than likely before it. I mean look how far they have come with the camera so far. The Epic that Jarred brought to IBC this year was only missing the ACICS, which is a big part of the camera. But the camera is done. They are only hammering out the final bugs. Keep positive guys.

I'm guessing the FF35 Epic/Scarlet will be out sometime this summer.

[Stephen Williams]

You guys are making me depressed. I hope Red gets these cameras out much sooner than that!

I would rather they are tested properly & work reliably out of the box. Realistically Monstro FF35 seems a long way off.

[Daniel Browning]

Any idea of the difference between FF35 and S35 in shooting with high ISO.

If they have the same performance per area, then FF35 will have the same noise level at 1 and 1/3 stops higher ISO.

For example, the 5D2 and 7D have the exact same performance per area, so you can shoot the 5D2 at f/2.8 ISO 1600 and get the exact same noise level as the 7D at f/2.8 ISO 640.


How dose the size of the photosites compare between the two epic models.


Pixel size is not generally a good indicator of performance in low light. (Sensor size is, though.)



Here is the D3s at 12800 with no post noise reduction.


The reason it has no "post" NR is because it has already had a mountain of in-camera NR applied; especially desaturation.

[Stephen Pruitt]

FF35 by summer? With the new Monstro chip? Was that pixie dust on your cereal this morning?

Stephen

[Andrew Walker]

FF35 by summer? With the new Monstro chip? Was that pixie dust on your cereal this morning?

Stephen

I have faith in RED. Either way I'll be enjoying my Epic-X until they release the FF35 Epic.

[Roberto B]

FF35 by summer? With the new Monstro chip? Was that pixie dust on your cereal this morning?

Stephenehehehehe Dr. Pruitt..

[Stephen Pruitt]

Andrew. . . why, if the FF35 is the camera you want, would you even think about buying the S35 if you thought the FF35 was coming out "a couple of months later." Man, biz must be busting loose in your neck of the woods! Good for you!

As for me, I'll go X only because I don't want a FF35-sized chip (but I do covet that higher dynamic range!). I'd much rather enhance my chances of actually keeping things in focus with the S35.

Stephen

[richard peterson]

The reason it has no "post" NR is because it has already had a mountain of in-camera NR applied; especially desaturation.

Here are some more random samples from the d3s shot at ISO 1280. If this low level on noise is based only on camera NR then nikon should bottle and sell that stuff.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=33814241

I use the foundry's Nuke 5.2, furnace F_DeGrain and F_DeNoise for post NR.

I can't get the Red one @ ISO 1200 close to this. If you have ideas on post DR workflow then let me in.

even the high ISO video stuff from the D3s isn't that bad.
http://www.vimeo.com/7721408

But I want this low light performance in a epic FF (manual control, raw format, high speed, ect)

[KETCH ROSSi]

One thing to keep in mind is that it is not only a fact of cropped sensor vs. Full Frame sensor, and the Photo sites them selves, which by norm more light is allowed in to the full frame making IT a better candidate for low light shooting, but for low light capabilities, shooting at higher ISO with less noise, as well as maintaining HIQ is a matter of Pixel Density as well, beside off course the MP count, which on the FF Epic is double that of the S35, and more MP with a larger sensor requires different work solution making it also more expensive to produce.

[Daniel Browning]

If this low level on noise is based only on camera NR...


It's not. I did not mean that it was.

[KETCH ROSSi]

To the above, I wanted to add, that Pixel size on the sensor, matters till a certain point, and some new technologies are showing that even with smaller pixel size there is more light gathering in the same sensor that there was in previous designed sensors with larger pixel size, and current technology is really pushing the High ISO very far, as we see in Nikon/Canon new cameras.

To me a very clean High ISO allows to shoot not only images in darker areas, or with less lighting, but even in the same lighting conditions, will allow to shoot at a much higher Shutter speed, resulting in crispier images free of movement and or motion blur, for this I look forward to see EPIC improve its ISO range as we go.