'Circular' Fisheye -Help Needed!

[Scott Webster]

Hi Lens Experts,

We are involved with a shoot where they are trying to capture a 180 degree fisheye image and would like to do this without cropping or altering in post to retain resolution.

The camera being used will be the Red and the audience will be the largest ever to be shown Red footage. Think global event and 4k projection.

A standard .45 degree fisheye is too rectangular and the Abakus Stadium lens is too wide.

Ideally a PL mount lens. Anyone want to speculate what problems we would face using the Pelang 3.5/8mm with PL mount (http://tinyurl.com/2pows7) on a Red camera?

[chuck colburn]

This might not help...but Pentax offers a fisheye zoom lens.

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

It won't be fish eye, just wide angle, should cover the whole sensor.

Stephen


Hi Lens Experts,

We are involved with a shoot where they are trying to capture a 180 degree fisheye image and would like to do this without cropping or altering in post to retain resolution.

The camera being used will be the Red and the audience will be the largest ever to be shown Red footage. Think global event and 4k projection.

A standard .45 degree fisheye is too rectangular and the Abakus Stadium lens is too wide.

Ideally a PL mount lens. Anyone want to speculate what problems we would face using the Pelang 3.5/8mm with PL mount (http://tinyurl.com/2pows7) on a Red camera?

[chuck colburn]

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0512/05120103pentax_fishizoom.asp

It's a 180 degree lens at 10mm and it's not a rectilinear corrected lens.
But I see that you can't control the stop externaly so that won't work.

[Bruce Allen]

Do you need true 180 degrees FOV? Diagonal? Top? Bottom? How about 179, etc?

The 10mm lens mentioned about will only get a "diagonal" 180, not a true 180 FOV.

Be aware that a Nikon 8mm or Peleng 8mm will also not make a perfect circle due to the 1.5x crop - they will crop on the top and bottom. The only way to get around this is with a relay lens system.

Or use the 220 degree FOV Nikon 6mm ;) - will probably work even when cropped.

Or use TWO Reds with wide-angle lenses.

Anyway, let me know what you find. I have a couple things like this in the pipeline too and I'll be interested in your results. Good luck!

Check out these links:
http://www.naturfotograf.com/D1_fisheye_1,html.htm
http://www.muellerworld.com/peleng/
http://www.nearfield.com/%7Edan/Photo/wide/fish/
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/speciallenses/6mmfish.htm

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Scott Webster]

Hi,

It won't be fish eye, just wide angle, should cover the whole sensor.

Stephen

Hi Stephen, Does a PL mount lens exist that offers the same FOV?

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Stephen, Does a PL mount lens exist that offers the same FOV?

Hi,

I am not aware of any PL mounted 'Fish Eyes' but I am sure Joe Dunton would be the guy to speak to.

Stephen

[Scott Webster]

Do you need true 180 degrees FOV? Diagonal? Top? Bottom? How about 179, etc?

The 10mm lens mentioned about will only get a "diagonal" 180, not a true 180 FOV.

Be aware that a Nikon 8mm or Peleng 8mm will also not make a perfect circle due to the 1.5x crop - they will crop on the top and bottom. The only way to get around this is with a relay lens system.

Or use the 220 degree FOV Nikon 6mm ;) - will probably work even when cropped.

Or use TWO Reds with wide-angle lenses.

Anyway, let me know what you find. I have a couple things like this in the pipeline too and I'll be interested in your results. Good luck!

Check out these links:
http://www.naturfotograf.com/D1_fisheye_1,html.htm
http://www.muellerworld.com/peleng/
http://www.nearfield.com/%7Edan/Photo/wide/fish/
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/speciallenses/6mmfish.htm

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Thanks Bruce. As I understand it the effect they are going for is 180 degree FOV.

[Scott Webster]

Be aware that a Nikon 8mm or Peleng 8mm will also not make a perfect circle due to the 1.5x crop - they will crop on the top and bottom. The only way to get around this is with a relay lens system.

http://www.muellerworld.com/peleng/



LOL that relay setup will make for an interesting rig on the Red, mounted on a Steadicam! (which is what they want to use for the shoot)

[Bruce Allen]

Remem


Hi,
I am not aware of any PL mounted 'Fish Eyes' but I am sure Joe Dunton would be the guy to speak to.
Stephen

I think some PL mount ones use the Nikon 8mm lens as a basis? I think Century also offers a 7.5mm?


Thanks Bruce. As I understand it the effect they are going for is 180 degree FOV.

Do they want rectilinear or fisheye? I know you can convert in post.

Finally, I forgot that there are is also the excellent Arri Ultra Prime 8R. But I think you'd need two of 'em on a Red each for true 180 FOV (their FOV is 112 for Super35). Then just stitch together in post.

I think that shooting with two synchronized Reds and stitching in post is the only way you'll get a 180 degree FOV image with real 4K detail.

Or else, 10 HV20's stitched together :) But synching them would suck / be impossible. Not that it's going to stop me trying though...

EDIT Oh damn, just read that they want a Steadicam. I think the Peleng or Nikon would give 180 horizontal, just not vertical.

Here are some pages from the Arri site (includes some Nikon 8mm samples):
http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/ultra_prime_r8/samples.htm
http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/ultra_prime_r8/sample_movie_clips.htm
http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/tutorials/rectilinear-fishey/rectilinear-fishey.html

...and here's a link to Clairmont's rental page for the 6mm Nikon:
http://www.clairmont.com/spec_items/6mm_nikkor_lens.html
I've seen it in person - it's crazy!

I have some stuff from the Peleng 8mm attached to a 35mm adapter, attached to a HV20. But it'll be a while before I post (have lots more things to get through first).

What does your client want to do?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[chuck colburn]

http://images.google.com/images?q=fisheye+lens&hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=5gy&um=1&sa=X&oi=images&ct=title

[Matt Uhry]

The Peleng is pretty cool, and inexpensive.

Look here:

http://mattuhry.com/insight.mov

I shot this Honda spot with a Peleng.

It might cover too much for a round image on frame, you can of course crop the edges round. If you want round and very wide try a fisheye for 16mm.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Bruce Allen]

I shot this Honda spot with a Peleng.


Matt, your Honda spot was a definite factor in my choice to get a Peleng ;) Congrats!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Jim Arthurs]

Another possiblity is doing something with the Nikon 10.5mm fisheye... first by removing the shade to expose the full 180 degree plus area, then using something as relay optics or a 35mm spinning ground glass adapter to refit the 28mm circle into the full height of the RED frame. It would probably be the sharpest of the affordable choices, but all these solutions will be less sharp than the chip can handle...

http://www.fotoverkstan.se/fisheyetest/

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/105fe.htm

[T. Glen Phelps]

Not a PL mount, but with the Birger EOS mount it might work for you.

Canon 15mm fisheye (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=151&modelid=7321)

[Bruce Allen]

Another possiblity is doing something with the Nikon 10.5mm fisheye... first by removing the shade to expose the full 180 degree plus area, then using something as relay optics or a 35mm spinning ground glass adapter to refit the 28mm circle into the full height of the RED frame. It would probably be the sharpest of the affordable choices, but all these solutions will be less sharp than the chip can handle...

Interesting! Didn't know you could do that with the 10.5mm. I'd be interested in seeing how it compared to the 8mm 2.8 with a relay.

I forgot to mention that the Peleng has quite a bit of flare which may be a problem if doing Steadicam...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Mick van Rossum, NSC]

I just tested the Peleng 8mm and the Arri 8mm against each other on a 435 with 50 ASA Kodak vision 2. Scanned it to 2K, folded out in Maya. The Arri is far superior to the Peleng ( not surprising ) optically. The idea was to be make cameramovements in post for which the Peleng is more interesting . However the Peleng shows a lot of CA and flare especially in the corners where most of the action takes place. We decided not to go that way.
There is also a Sigma 8 with a 180 degree view, anyone tested that one ?

cheers

Mick van Rossum NSC

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Mick,

Am I correct in assuming that the Arri lens you tested was the UltraPrime 8R, which is rectilinear? Actually, I think that is the only 8mm lens that Arri offers. Just curious that you were comparing it to an 8mm Peleng fisheye since they produce very different images.

Did the Peleng vignette a lot? I've been wondering about that, but may still pick one up just because they're so cheap and could create some unique effects.

[John Fairstein]

Also see http://www.coastalopt.com/digital-slr-fisheye-lens-14.9mm-image.html for a line of fisheye lenses.

[Jim Arthurs]

Also see http://www.coastalopt.com/digital-slr-fisheye-lens-14.9mm-image.html for a line of fisheye lenses.

Interesting... it's JUST possible that 180 degrees out of the 185 degrees (image circle at 185 is 14.9mm) it images might fit in the RED's 13.7mm high sensor area...

I wonder if we can define a square capture crop for the RED and use REDCODE RAW? 13.7mm high by 13.7mm wide would be frugal in file size and perfect for this lens...

[Mark Thorpe]

Hehehe, guys,
check out the 1st diver in the fisheye image of the 'Sea' group.

http://www.coastalopt.com/fisheye-gallery-2.html

Yours truly, shot in Tenerife, Canary Islands. Dan Burton and I were doing the first underwater iPix shots with ancestors of that lens back in '96.

Wow, I look a lot younger.
Cheers,
Mark.

[Bruce Allen]

Hehehe, guys,
check out the 1st diver in the fisheye image of the 'Sea' group.


Awesome! I read the Coastal Optics PDF they had comparing wide-angle lenses. Their stuff seemed good if expensive. What did you think of it? Worth it over the Nikon 8mm 2.8?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Mark Thorpe]

Dan (Burton) was, and remains, "the man" for the underwater iPix. I was modeling for him and helping set up the rigs in pools etc to some shoots with freediving models for that gig, way back when. I've got my crampons on as I get through this learning curve so I'd prefer not to try and make any comments just yet with regards to lens characteristics etc. Still getting to grips with it.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Mick van Rossum, NSC]

Mick,

Am I correct in assuming that the Arri lens you tested was the UltraPrime 8R, which is rectilinear? Actually, I think that is the only 8mm lens that Arri offers. Just curious that you were comparing it to an 8mm Peleng fisheye since they produce very different images.

Did the Peleng vignette a lot? I've been wondering about that, but may still pick one up just because they're so cheap and could create some unique effects.


Jef, yes , that's correct. It was more to see what a wider lens than the Ultra Prime has to offer since we thought the 8 was not wide enough for the effect we wanted to create. Since the Peleng is my own I decided to try it. It looks like the Sigma 8mm fisheye is optically better than the Peleng , looking from test images. Now waiting for the Red with Nikon mount to see how these fisheyes compare.