Glass Wars (revised)

[Mark Thorpe]

OK so this is probably gonna incite a riot, sorry Evin. I have always been a bit confused as to why some people prefer Canon over Nikon, or vice versa, or Cooke, Zeiss or any other lens manufacturer over another. With the arrival of the full sensor 14-24mm, 24-70mm offerings from Nikon where are we now with regards to options for lenses on our RED? Whats the shift going to be? So I thought it may be interesting to see what folks are planning lens wise on their respective setups.

For Poll answers please, if you have the time, bother to give a reason for your selections, is it for a specific reason? Budgetary considerations? or just personal preference? I'm learning here so all the info will be ingested and appreciated.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Stephen Webb]

Um, what about the Red lenses??? Or Angenieux?

[Roberto B]

why not multiple choices?.. this is not a correct poll..

[Bruce Allen]

I'm not sure where I fit in the poll, exactly, either.

I'm a director - apart from my theatre experience, the other thing I bring to the table is the ability to create new looks. I don't believe it's necessary to own a lot of expensive gear. Just enough to do a proof of concept to prove you can make something original that fits the project.

So, for myself / proof of concept / fun: mostly ancient Nikon manual-focus lenses, a Peleng... I have a few more Eastern-bloc lenses in mind too ;)... connected to an HV20 with a 35mm adapter. Maybe another fisheye converter as well w/o 35mm adapter. Total lens budget: around $2500 or less. This is where I try crazy things to hopefully make people notice me and say "okay, it's low-res and grainy, but who cares - overall the concept is there - let's give that guy some money so he can film it with proper equipment..."

I think it's better to have a wide range of kinda bad lenses than having a few great lenses and a Red and having people say "wow, that kid's got money - it all looks like it was shot on 65mm - but obviously no talent. What a boring bunch of framing / composition / lens choices"

For a shoot / when I have budget: whatever the heck the DP thinks is best for executing what I have roughly sketched out using my cheap lens collection + camera. Depending on project, presumably Red, Arri / Zeiss, Cooke, Dalsa (both their Leica range and their semi-anamorphic range), Angenieux... They all have pros and cons. If the Birger mount is the most kick-ass thing available, then Nikon or Canon too.

So: "mostly Nikon" for tests. "Whatever is best" for the real thing. Or is the test / concept really the "real thing"? Sometimes I think we gild the lily too much.

Forgot to add that the added benefit of buying cheap, old Nikons is that if it turns out that I lack the necessary talent, then I wasted a heck of a lot less money ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

I choose the lenses based on the job Zeiss clean & clinical when stopped down, soft & low contrast wide open. Cooke imperfect in a beautiful way. Nikon if the lens is any danger. My Zeiss are old & don't have extended focus scales, is there any budget to rent? horses for courses.

Stephen

[Emanuel A.]

Other 'cause filmmaker's gang is right. Without multiple choice there, the poll doesn't make sense.

[Mark Thorpe]

OK whatever, Evin, please scrap this poll. I'll stay in areas of the forum where I know what I'm talking about. And there I was thinking I could learn from the wise.......

[Bruce Allen]

CamDiver, you're wiser than most already... here's my 2c:

Canon / Nikon: Nikon seems to have a slight edge at the moment. But if you have Canon lenses, it's probably not worth the change. Also, Canon gets the Birger mount sooner. Hey, next year Canon could come out with a couple cool lenses to fill out the gaps in their line and then the positions could be reversed. There is a general consensus that the digital lenses (the ones designed for the 1.5x crop) will work without vignetting. No image has been posted from one of those lenses yet. A long, long time ago, Jarred (I think?) posted a still from an older Nikon lens attached to a Red prototype and it looked good.

Cine lenses - all have much better ergonomics (nice focus scales, etc). Potentially the Birger mount will fix the ergonomic problems for the DSLR lenses (eg there'll be a way to see where you are focused that doesn't involve trying to peer into a little plastic window on the top of the lens to read a tiny distance marking). But at the moment, the Cine lenses have a huge ergonomic edge.

Beyond those differences, it's personal preference and suitability to project. Eg do you need beautiful bokeh, high speed, even color balance, anamorphic out-of-focus look, light weight, low cost, etc etc...

Anyway, Good night!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Emanuel A.]

Mark, the poll does make sense but needs an editing or an editor. ;-) That's all!

[number6]

I chose "other", assuming that's where you vote if planning on using RED glass. I can finally see my way to buying a zoom lens for one camera, and by doubling doun, that is, using my first camera and equipment as collateral, complete the purchase and limited accessories (including an undetermined RED lens) for my second camera.

As for why RED lenses? Because they are what Red is working with to perfect their camera. If it works for them, then I'm sure I will be satisfied as well. I will not try to out tweak the tweakers.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Here is a revised poll for CamDiver (Mark). Great idea, just a few key options were missed. I could break this out even more, but that would become tedious and 10 choices is the max anyway. BTW, it's multiple choice, check all that apply to you...

[number6]

Here is a revised poll for CamDiver (Mark). Great idea, just a few key options were missed. I could break this out even more, but that would become tedious and 10 choices is the max anyway. BTW, it's multiple choice, check all that apply to you...

Jeff, being multiple choice, I think you gotta do something about those percentages.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Nothing I can do about the percentages... Not enough customization options. :( They look screwy, but they're really not -- you can't add them up. As of this post, it shows 54% of voters are voting for RED lenses. That doesn't mean that they didn't vote for another option as well. I think that is a good indicator that half of the people participating in the poll intend to use RED glass, either exclusively or in addition to other lenses they may have or want to use.

[laguun]

Nothing I can do about the percentages... Not enough customization options. :( They look screwy, but they're really not -- you can't add them up. As of this post, it shows 54% of voters are voting for RED lenses. That doesn't mean that they didn't vote for another option as well. I think that is a good indicator that half of the people participating in the poll intend to use RED glass, either exclusively or in addition to other lenses they may have or want to use.

i would be interested how the percentages would be if you would offer
red zoom
red fixed
as option

we, as angenieux stronghold, use mainly zooms.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yep... Maybe that's another poll in itself. I can only have 10 choices per poll and I tried to keep it in line with what Mark originally created.

[jaadgy akanni]

I noticed that for Nikon you only have "via Red Mount" and not "Via Birger Mount" as if Birger weren't making a mount for Nikon as well. It's obvious though, that regardless of that small oversight, Nikon beats canon.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Well, AFAIK, Birger hasn't officially announced their Nikon F mount... They don't even have a pre-order form online yet for the Canon one, which will be the first.... And I didn't separate the Birger and RED mounts for Canon either.

No pleasing some people, I guess. :biggrin:

[G.A. Kokes]

Hi,

I choose the lenses based on the job Zeiss clean & clinical when stopped down, soft & low contrast wide open. Cooke imperfect in a beautiful way.

Stephen

Took the words out of my mouth. We traditionally use what the DoP prescribes based on the job. This recommendation could be based on price, but often is not.

G

[Mark Thorpe]

Here is a revised poll for CamDiver (Mark). Great idea, just a few key options were missed. I could break this out even more, but that would become tedious and 10 choices is the max anyway. BTW, it's multiple choice, check all that apply to you... Thanks for revising that Jeff.

Cheers,
Mark.

[jaadgy akanni]

Well, AFAIK, Birger hasn't officially announced their Nikon F mount... They don't even have a pre-order form online yet for the Canon one, which will be the first.... And I didn't separate the Birger and RED mounts for Canon either.

No pleasing some people, I guess. :biggrin:

I insist that you should correct that 'cause it's been clearly stated by BirgerEngineer that there will be a Nikon mount. The way you present it, it misleads people to assume that the Birger mount is only being offered for canon lenses. Here's a quote from Erik(BirgerEngineer):
"We are only promising AF-S support. As we have been working on the protocol, it seems Nikon accounted for the backlash problem rather well. I need to play with a lot more AF lenses before I know if this will actually be a usable feature. If it is, we will look into adding a screw drive for AF lenses. Either way, we will charge the same price as the Canon".

[number6]

Nothing I can do about the percentages... Not enough customization options. :( They look screwy, but they're really not -- you can't add them up. As of this post, it shows 54% of voters are voting for RED lenses. That doesn't mean that they didn't vote for another option as well. I think that is a good indicator that half of the people participating in the poll intend to use RED glass, either exclusively or in addition to other lenses they may have or want to use.

Makes sense.

[Don King]

Here's another one:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4060

[Evin Grant]

Don't forget there will be Birger mount for Nikon as well.

As to how I voted, well you can all guess Nikon but I also voted Red and Zeiss. I will most likely be renting Zeiss lenses for some projectgs becasue that is what many expect. I am planning on purchasing a complete set of Red lenses, 15-300mm, zooms and primes but I've got to put my camera to work for a few months before I can drop the $40K. I might get the two zooms by the end of the year, just depends on how rentals go an what demand is like.

On a side note I attached my D2x to a bridge plate and follow focus last night to see just how bad the focus throw on the Nikon AI and AIS lenses really was... I was plesantly surprised, even the 17-35mm zooms has 90º of rotation on the follow focus knob. Most were in the 180º-270º range, with a good follow focus unit, perferably one with a drag clutch like the pro Chrosziel you should be able to achieve quite a reasonable degree of accuracy. I'm not an AC but I would surmise at least enough accuracy for F4 or f5.6.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Don't forget there will be Birger mount for Nikon as well.

Yes, but when? Hopefully it will arrive by the end of the year...


On a side note I attached my D2x to a bridge plate and follow focus last night to see just how bad the focus throw on the Nikon AI and AIS lenses really was... I was plesantly surprised, even the 17-35mm zooms has 90º of rotation on the follow focus knob.

This is very good to know.

I'm still completely undecided on lenses... Actually, I intend to buy all of the RED lenses at some point. I just can't decide if I want to buy the 18-50 and 50-150 right off along with the 300mm or if I want to go all Nikon in the beginning with an occasional rental of Cooke or Zeiss (or even RED) glass. Either way, I'll have to wait until later next year to seriously consider buying the RED prime set.

[Evin Grant]

Yes, but when? Hopefully it will arrive by the end of the year...

Late September/early October according to Erik.