Max Redcode framerates (Or: loss of RGB modes)...

[Dominic Jones]

Following on from the discussions of 1080/720p vs 96fps 2k Redcode RAW, it looks from the current new formats page as if neither of these options are to be available - is this right??

At the moment, so far as I can tell, you need to record uncompressed RAW (over RAW port) to get framerates above 4k/30fps and 2k/60fps - i.e. no on-board way to record anything over 60fps at all, and no more than 30fps from full sensor.

If that's correct, that's a huge step backwards in my books - I'd really like to see something re-instated (assuming that it has indeed been dropped and isn't just an omission from the formats page or info yet to be added once the details have been finalised) that covers the higher framerates. I'd personally plump for the higher Redcode RAW framerates, but 1080p and/or 720p RGB at the higher rates would do in a pinch...

Apologies if this is jumping the gun and those options are still in development and simply not mentioned because no firm decisions have been made - I know there was very recent talk of optional firmwares to enable a choice between the two - but I just wanted to get a clarification if possible. I know you're all under the gun at the moment, so don't worry if an immediate reply isn't possible, but as and when it would be nice to have my mind put at rest!

All the best with the dev guys, hope it's going well over there and looking forward to the big day - don't work too hard :wink:!...

[Harmonica]

I asked the same thing here (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3871&page=2) and Stuart seemed to avoid that question. I really hope we haven't lost that option.:sad:

[Jarred Land]

this doesnt seem right.. let me check.

[Jannard]

Spec error... update soon. Sorry.

Jim

[Harmonica]

Whew! I love you guys!:) "You always here things first on Reduser.net"

[REDHKSC]

Following on from the discussions of 1080/720p vs 96fps 2k Redcode RAW, it looks from the current new formats page as if neither of these options are to be available - is this right??

At the moment, so far as I can tell, you need to record uncompressed RAW (over RAW port) to get framerates above 4k/30fps and 2k/60fps - i.e. no on-board way to record anything over 60fps at all, and no more than 30fps from full sensor.

If that's correct, that's a huge step backwards in my books - I'd really like to see something re-instated (assuming that it has indeed been dropped and isn't just an omission from the formats page or info yet to be added once the details have been finalised) that covers the higher framerates. I'd personally plump for the higher Redcode RAW framerates, but 1080p and/or 720p RGB at the higher rates would do in a pinch...

Apologies if this is jumping the gun and those options are still in development and simply not mentioned because no firm decisions have been made - I know there was very recent talk of optional firmwares to enable a choice between the two - but I just wanted to get a clarification if possible. I know you're all under the gun at the moment, so don't worry if an immediate reply isn't possible, but as and when it would be nice to have my mind put at rest!

All the best with the dev guys, hope it's going well over there and looking forward to the big day - don't work too hard :wink:!...

Good morning Mr. Jones,

I am saying hello to you from my Home Kingdom ( HK ).

I saw the 2K files here in HK eight hours ago ( HK Time ) and Ted was here in HKG to chair the SALE - Talks.

TED did not mention abour the RED one ( 1st Generation ) will support 720P or 1080P on board, and I did ask him about CAN WE record both on the Harddrive and Flash RAM at the same time for BACKUP. ( If the drive get fails or vice versa )

Be honest with you that ALL the PEOPLE in HKG " Don't get the WOW Factor by seeing the " 4K down to 2K files " stuffs from the Barco 2K projector.

And the screen is just less than 200" inches !!!

I liked the BIG SCREEN at IBC last year for a 4K screening.

APPLE guys are selling like AVID in their old days.

Cheers,

STEWART

[Álex Montoya]

Look at that. It seems that a wee of criticism has improved Stewart's english by leaps.

Welcome to the communication world, dude.

[Stuart English]

The max frame rate recording 4K RAW is 60fps and 4K REDCODE RAW is 30fps.

Using the central area (Super 16mm optical coverage) of the sensor we can record significantly faster frame rates using 2K REDCODE RAW.

The specs at red.com currently say 2K REDCODE RAW is up to 60fps, but that will be updated in the next 24 hours.

[Dominic Jones]

Top stuff!!! Thanks guys, and thanks for the quick responses - especially given how busy you must all be... I'll live with max 30fps @ 4k if we can go "significantly higher" than 60fps @ 2k, no problem!

Thanks again for the quick feedback, you lot are really pushing all the right buttons...

[Dominic Jones]

Hi Stewart,

I think it's fairly safe to assume that for the time being there will not be RGB options (particularly as Stuart E has stated that the higher Redcode RAW rates are going to be included), but maybe there will be a firmware flash available in future to enable those at the cost of the higher Redcode RAW rates, as hinted by Jim a while ago - we'll have to wait and see...

Jealous of your having seen the 2k presentation, never mind 4k, but hopefully off to IBC this year if I can get it sorted, so fingers crossed for a close-up look at the camera and some stunning 4k imagery then!

[Warren Kommers]

The max frame rate recording 4K RAW is 60fps and 4K REDCODE RAW is 30fps.

Using the central area (Super 16mm optical coverage) of the sensor we can record significantly faster frame rates using 2K REDCODE RAW.

The specs at red.com currently say 2K REDCODE RAW is up to 60fps, but that will be updated in the next 24 hours.

Stuart,

Do you feel like the threshold is well understood at this point for what can no longer be achieved by software and becomes a limitation of the hardware in Red One? I'm speaking mostly in terms of frame rates I suppose. Maybe it's the RAW recording/pipeline options instead of the camera itself. I guess I'm curiuos if I should keep my hopes up for any full frame speeds at 2k or 4k to at least 40fps like an Arricam LT or any modern sync camera that I use.

When I first heard about Red the intial "rumor" projections were very high speed 4K. I knew those were just projections but I was so excited at the possibility that I no longer have to deal with getting my AC's to set up the 435 for that one high speed shot or even charge the production for a second body, crew, and accesories. Finally a MOS/Sync camera in one body like a 16mm SR 3 but with 35mm DOF!?!?!

****Now I know I should put a disclamer here so that Jim doesn't think I'm bitching and he sends the ol reply reminding us what you are getting for 17,500. Red one is truly remarkable and revolutionary and I can't wait! Dealing with the data rates of these high frame rates at that resolution must be such a engineering nightmare and I'm asking a lot. However, I do feel it is a legitimate concern regarding this camera and its use professionally. ****

If I want to use even 36 or 32 fps which I find directors(including myself especially when directing commercials) usully use all the time for a subtle dramatic effect. Won't it be a camera reconfig(factory only?), additional gear, and a hickup in the workflow. It's not renting a 435 but I guess I will still have to do that for when we are going past 60 and do all the emulsion research/testing to match Red.

Wasn't there some post about full frame 2k recording up to a 100fps at one point? That would be fantastic for all small screen apps and probably "cut" with 4k for theatrical.

Do you know where I should cap my fps hopes by when the issue just becomes limited by the hardware? Will what you post today or tommorow be the absolute limit of what we should expect from Red One? What is the threshold?

Anyways, I'm doing backflips over this camera overall and am so impressed with what you all have accomplished. Huge congratulations on shaking this industry up and raising the bar. F*$# Yeah! Cheers.

[Alexander Nikishin]

The max frame rate in full sensored 2k is 60. 96 in 2k windowed. 30 in 4k full frme, all redcode raw.

[Evan Owen]

The max frame rate in full sensored 2k is 60. 96 in 2k windowed. 30 in 4k full frme, all redcode raw.

According to http://www.red.com/cameras/format_options, recording 2k from the full sensor isn't an option anymore.

[Bruce Allen]

Do you feel like the threshold is well understood at this point for what can no longer be achieved by software and becomes a limitation of the hardware in Red One? I'm speaking mostly in terms of frame rates I suppose. Maybe it's the RAW recording/pipeline options instead of the camera itself.

I think the current max sensor readout in full mode is 60fps, windowed mode is 120fps.

The REDCODE max fps is determined by the FPGA and how they code it. We don't know what FPGA they use.

Some people seem to think that Red could do full sensor stuff at > 60fps. I don't see how they could do that unless they figure out how to read evey second picture line (similar to an interlaced readout) But then you would have a slightly vertically aliased look.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Blair S. Paulsen]

We are a little past the 24 hours Stuart requested to give us a clearer answer but I'm sure the Red Team will respond soon - I don't know what could be distracting them... :whistling:

[Justin O'Neill]

They must be playing with the puppies.

[I Bloom]

Hey,

One thing I think is important to keep in mind is that at some point it becomes neccessary for them to put information on the website that reflects what the camera can actually do at this point in its developement. Previously I think it reflected what they were proposing it could do. This change makes sense to me, eventually "actual specs may vary" has to come to an end and be replaced by "these are the specs, and this is what we are working on."

It is possible to make great gains in software developement just by discovering a clever way to accomplish something faster or with less resources. Software optimization is not a linear process, it's an art. So it makes sense that the RED team says, we think we can do such and such in the future, even though their hardware is set. So patience is key.

IBloom

[Stuart English]

Hey,

One thing I think is important to keep in mind is that at some point it becomes neccessary for them to put information on the website that reflects what the camera can actually do at this point in its developement. Previously I think it reflected what they were proposing it could do. This change makes sense to me, eventually "actual specs may vary" has to come to an end and be replaced by "these are the specs, and this is what we are working on."

It is possible to make great gains in software developement just by discovering a clever way to accomplish something faster or with less resources. Software optimization is not a linear process, it's an art. So it makes sense that the RED team says, we think we can do such and such in the future, even though their hardware is set. So patience is key.

IBloom

Very well said ibloom.

[Jannard]

Let me say this for the ___th time. These are the specs we have now. More are likely to come. We have talked about a possible alternate build to get people what they want, but that is NOT going to happen today. We are trying to get the cameras out.

You certainly have the option to wait if you are a reservation holder or if you are considering a deposit. But it is likely that by the time your number comes up, these issues won't be issues.

Jim

[Roberto B]

Look at that. It seems that a wee of criticism has improved Stewart's english by leaps.

Welcome to the communication world, dude.http://clicksmilies.com/s1106/verkleidung/costumed-smiley-067.gif

[Mr. Paul White]

The max frame rate recording 4K RAW is 60fps and 4K REDCODE RAW is 30fps.

Using the central area (Super 16mm optical coverage) of the sensor we can record significantly faster frame rates using 2K REDCODE RAW.

The specs at red.com currently say 2K REDCODE RAW is up to 60fps, but that will be updated in the next 24 hours.100fps (not only 96fps) 2k Redcode RAW, correct?

[Warren Kommers]

Let me say this for the ___th time. These are the specs we have now. More are likely to come. We have talked about a possible alternate build to get people what they want, but that is NOT going to happen today. We are trying to get the cameras out.

You certainly have the option to wait if you are a reservation holder or if you are considering a deposit. But it is likely that by the time your number comes up, these issues won't be issues.

Jim

Alternate build? Oh god I don't want to run with this too much. I can tell your under so much pressure Jim. No matter what, you and your team carry so much "hero" status in my books for being so god damn progressive and rebelious in a field dominated by inflated costs and cautious R and D. And as far as Reduser.net and the shitstorm of questions and requests you make your self subject to is ballsy to say the least. I'm sure it carries it's pros and cons. But as a potential customer it is so f-ing great to see a company that appreciates the people whose hands their product is going to end up in. I mean I wish there was RED thought process in every product I come in contact with. Shit, I would eat RED the breakfast cereal or RED the multivitamin.

I'm numbers 6 and 9 hundo something. I will see what the specs are around Nov. and Dec. I understand the software is a art and nothing is certain on this camera. It seemed like at somepoint maybe you would come across the limitations of the hardware. Perhaps you are not there yet which is great news. I do remeber a DP I work with mentioning a post that said there was a hardware choice that would've increased the cost of the camera but also increased frame rates.

God.....I almost don't even want to ask you now but... Is this the possible "alternate build" you speak of? I'm not going to ask if that will be an option now. However, would you say that the hardware upgradebility and future proofing, that was originally one of the goals of this camera, is still present? That was one of the most impressive things I saw outlined originally. Even more then 4k resolution! The speed that digital technology moves at is probably one of it's biggest shortcomings. I mean you could put a Cooke S4 on an old Mitchell camera and load it up with some 5218 there would be a fantastic image. The 35mm format did have that going for it at least. I was impressed RED was sensitive to this issue.

Cheers!

[GlennChan]

Hollywood,
My understanding of the limitations are this:

A lot of the heavy-duty processing is done by 2 FPGAs (field programmable gate arrays). FPGAs are basically custom computers and you can reprogram them in the field. The amount of "stuff"/features it can do is limited by the # of gates on the FPGA... more expensive FPGAs have more gates. For Red to get *both* framerate options (scaled 720p RGB at 96~100fps, AND 2K window RAW at 60fps), the choices were:
A- Put a larger FPGA in the camera. Which would add about $3000 to the cost of the camera.
B- Have different builds of the firmware/FGPA, so you can program the FPGA to do either framerate.

[Chris Gearhart]

Thanks, Stewart. These specs are looking really sweet.

Oh, and concerning our eastern Stewart,


Look at that. It seems that a wee of criticism has improved Stewart's english by leaps.

Welcome to the communication world, dude.

Lol! No kidding! The words were in order and in context! I wasn't sure what wierd time-space warp I was stuck in.

Love you, Stewart. HK rocks!

[Warren Kommers]

Hollywood,
My understanding of the limitations are this:

A lot of the heavy-duty processing is done by 2 FPGAs (field programmable gate arrays). FPGAs are basically custom computers and you can reprogram them in the field. The amount of "stuff"/features it can do is limited by the # of gates on the FPGA... more expensive FPGAs have more gates. For Red to get *both* framerate options (scaled 720p RGB at 96~100fps, AND 2K window RAW at 60fps), the choices were:
A- Put a larger FPGA in the camera. Which would add about $3000 to the cost of the camera.
B- Have different builds of the firmware/FGPA, so you can program the FPGA to do either framerate.

Thanks for the info Glenn. I'm not one of the users concerned about the use of 720 or 1080 very much. I'm really praying for 4k to at least 40 fps like a Arricam LT or any sync 35mm camera and full frame 2k to at least 60 fps. All in REDCODE.

Is it the FPGA's that limit this as well? Would the more expensive ones allow that? Check out my previous post on this thread on why I think this is important.

[GlennChan]

Presumably the FPGAs are limiting that. Remember that 4K is a lot of data (though with Bayer pattern, it's a third of what a RGB sensor would be). They also need to apply wavelet compression on top of that... which is more computationally expensive than DCT-based algorithms. (It also depends on the exact compression techniques they use... you can get better lossless/entropy coding if you are willing to throw more resources in it.)

Perhaps in the future we will see an upgrade to Red that will let you record higher frame rates to Redcode? FGPAs will only get larger as time progresses (Moore's Law should apply).

2- Right now your options are:
A- Use the RAW port off the camera to record uncompressed onto an external recorder. The exact details have not been released yet (e.g. they didn't mention what recorder(s) will work AFAIK). Though it'll likely be something flash-based like the Codex recorder.
B- Use the phantom high speed camera.
C- Shoot film.
D- Settle for 2K RAW 60fps (windowed). Which wouldn't be that bad a tradeoff?

[Warren Kommers]

Presumably the FPGAs are limiting that. Remember that 4K is a lot of data (though with Bayer pattern, it's a third of what a RGB sensor would be). They also need to apply wavelet compression on top of that... which is more computationally expensive than DCT-based algorithms. (It also depends on the exact compression techniques they use... you can get better lossless/entropy coding if you are willing to throw more resources in it.)

Perhaps in the future we will see an upgrade to Red that will let you record higher frame rates to Redcode? FGPAs will only get larger as time progresses (Moore's Law should apply).

2- Right now your options are:
A- Use the RAW port off the camera to record uncompressed onto an external recorder. The exact details have not been released yet (e.g. they didn't mention what recorder(s) will work AFAIK). Though it'll likely be something flash-based like the Codex recorder.
B- Use the phantom high speed camera.
C- Shoot film.
D- Settle for 2K RAW 60fps (windowed). Which wouldn't be that bad a tradeoff?


Glenn,

Thanks again for the info. I understand the massive amount of data it requires to shoot 4k. It's asking alot. Although I do not have the knowledge of digital capture and recording that you do I do know a ton about the application of it in production.

I do feel like the frame rates realities are being slightly overlooked somewhat as much as I don't want to be the guy bitching about this remerkable camera. However, maybe it will change? I don't know. Things change everyday at RED. However, I really don't want to have my AC's break out/rent a 435 body, or lose DOF(windowed 2k) in the middle of a scene shot at full frame 4k, or have a second Red One with the uncompressed output just for a 36fps shot. Those 48fps and under framerates I use and see used all the time on sync 35mm bodies. I have used the Phantom and it's a remarkable camera as well. However that is a 2500 dollar rental per day and I can't have that at my disposal everyday during production. Especially the lower budge stuff. Also for theatrical use I'm uncertain about film and Phantom HD intercutting with the bulletproof images of RED. From what I've seen at Cingear the RED is in a league of it's own and thus requires the need to cover what it took two film cameras(sync/MOS) to do before. 1-150? Past 150 is a specialty camera in film terms I suppose. I'm sure RED will cover all these bases in due time though.

[GlennChan]

(To throw an idea out there) What about shooting 2k RAW and using lenses like the Zeiss Digiprimes full open? Would that work for your needs?

2- Another option would be to use optical flow retiming. However, it doesn't necessarily work on all material. And it takes a very long time to render.

[Warren Kommers]

Thanks but all these come with comprimises for the real thing. Especially cutting into any action scene or other scene shot at 24 full res.

The lenses won't make a difference. Wide open is wide open on any lens provided they are the same stop. The field of view is all that changes with those lenses.

The opti flow has many restrictions from the examples my editor demoed for me awhile back. Has to be uncomplicated backgrounds and etc. There is also a loss of sharpness. Cool idea though.

I would also be surprised in my needs are that unique here. I suppose it's mostly theatrical I'm concerned about. It will all work out in time I suppose. I just would love to see it at least match the Arricam LT(40fps) at least and then hope that a 35mm stock will cut with the 4k. Apocalypto did this but the film looked so much better than the Genesis. Red is probably way more on par. Or better?

[GlennChan]

or have a second Red One with the uncompressed output just for a 36fps shot

It might be that if your Red has a RAW port out, you can record onto either Flash/Reddrive OR through the RAW port out. But not both at once.
So you don't need a second camera??

(Though I might be wrong here.)

2- They are tested the Red on some feature films, though without the ability to record slow motion onto an external recorder.

Jim had a post somewhere quoting the VFX supervisor on Wanted, saying that the Red footage and 5218 intercuts very well.

[Warren Kommers]

2- They are tested the Red on some feature films, though without the ability to record slow motion onto an external recorder.

Jim had a post somewhere quoting the VFX supervisor on Wanted, saying that the Red footage and 5218 intercuts very well.

That's good news. Although it is still another camera. Someday hopefully it will be just RED. Not even Phantom. 1-10,000 fps in 3D 4K. Wooooooooooooo!