learning

[Tom Lowe]

The other night I was talking to a documentary director when the subject of cameras came up. I was rambling on and on about image quality, IMAX, 65mm, Vista Vision, RAW, Phantom, and so on.

The director was like, "How do you know all this stuff, Tom??"

I scratched my head and was like, "Uh... the internet?"

I got to thinking about it later, and I can probably say that at least half of that stuff I learned just from David Mullen's posts! If you'd have asked me about those topics 3 years ago, I would have been clueless. Forums like these are god-sends for those of us who never went to film school. So thanks, guys!

:cheers2:

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

I agree.

I learned a lot from every other forum. SonyHDVInfo, DVInfo.net and finally RED User and Scarlet User.

It's an awesome way to discuss and I see that lots of people just don't do this and have very little information about current tech, not to say RED.

[David Wilson]

Tom,

"...god-sends for those of us who never went to film school."

god-sends for some of us who went to film school as well.

David

[Martin Weiss]

From a practical point of view, I learned more here than in film school.

And don't get me started on the bang-for-the-buck ;)

[Andy Jarosz]

I'd say it's about half and half for me as well. It's interesting being able to hold your own in conversations based on things you taught yourself online. You start to get familiar with things you've never even touched. It's very weird.

[Vico Martin]

more than 15 years filming and learning... but this last years in DVXuser, CreativeCow, REDuser. Lot of people can´t belive how huge the net is.... ;-)

[Vince Doran]

A bit off topic here:
I agree about getting educated from the internet, I am a recreational fisherman and hate the fact that our fish stocks are being depleted at an alarming rate with people giving GPS co-ords and advice about how to and when on the net. I believe the internet is playing a major roll in destroying our seafood stocks.

[Peter McCully]

At the risk of sounding like the old geezer I am, my font of learning for many years before the internet was American Cinematographer - and what books were around.

[Ace]

It's interesting being able to hold your own in conversations based on things you taught yourself online. You start to get familiar with things you've never even touched. It's very weird.

Yeah it is quite wierd how one finds oneself discussing incredibly intricate details of things you havent done or touched. Its like how when Geena Davis started assembling an assault rifle in Long Kiss Goodnight without ever having known of touching one!

And every anecdote talked about starts with "This guy I know on reduser did this.." lol.

Just imagine if you were privvy to thousands of conversations in thousands of rooms by thousands of expert minds. Now imagine those conversations were not ephemeral, but in written format and those same thousands of people were listening to those thousands of conversations. Its an incredible thing. A collective consciousness functioning in true form.

[Andrew Walker]

I've learned so much from first starting out on DVXuser and then coming over here to REDuser when it started. Its amazing what you can learn when there are so many creative minds in one place...on the internet. Forums like this and working at the studios have been my film school.

[Adrian Correia]

The internet is wonderful for learning....although I am reading Conrad Hall's article on "The Day of the Locusts" in an old American Cinematographer right now!

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

These boards are great. I have learned so much here and not just about filmmaking.

[Milan Nikolic]

Yes! This is very good learning place.

[David Mullen ASC]

The internet is wonderful for learning....although I am reading Conrad Hall's article on "The Day of the Locusts" in an old American Cinematographer right now!

Great article -- you'll learn how Hall did the firelight scene, by projecting light through the smoke and flames of a real fire. And blackened the ceiling of the soundstage... Looked great though.

[Andrew clemson]

Forums like these are god-sends for those of us who never went to film school.

and those of us who did. Its a cliche, but Ive learnt a million times more through working and talking with established professionals than I ever did at Uni.

This forum has helped me no end.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I've been learning via the internet ever since I first got dial up and it's taught me more about every subject that's interested me than highschool or college.

That being said college is much faster if you have the right teacher. I had a small handful of teachers who were extremely knowledgeable and helpful. When you can just sit for 90 minutes asking whatever question pops into your head and be able to get an instantaneous answer that's a really powerful thing.

So while the internet $ for $ might be the cheapest education money can buy, minute for minute it doesn't compare real school is much faster.

[David Mullen ASC]

College is a resource just as the internet is -- some people can take better advantage of that resource than others. But the burden is still on the individual to make the effort to learn.

I'm more or less self-taught, an autodidact. I tried to transfer into the film program at UCLA as an undergraduate, but my grades from being a pre-med student weren't good enough to get into the competitive film department.

So I ended up studying English Lit and creative writing at UCLA. In the meantime, I spent hours and hours at the Theater Arts Library studying filmmaking on my own, while shooting my own Super-8 projects. I also helped friends that were in the USC film program, though I was envious that they were actual film students.

I then spent almost four more years after graduation studying film on my own, and still hanging out at the UCLA libraries. I read every issue of American Cinematographer going back to the mid 1920's, and I re-read every issue starting in 1970 several times over (this was in the early 1980's so I'm only talking about a decade's worth of issues that I re-read). I read every issue of International Photographer (now ICG Magazine) going back to the 1950's. Same goes for the SMPTE Journal (though much of that was over my head). Not to mention all the books....

During this time, I made lot of short films in Super-8. By the time I went to film school as an MFA student when I was 26, I had been learning filmmaking on my own for a decade. When I took my basic cinematography class under professor Kris Malkiewicz, I told him I read his two books several times over already, and after getting 100% on all his tests, he made me his TA for the years I was there. I also later got to work on the 3rd Edition of his textbook years later.

My point is that whether or not you go to school, you are responsible for teaching yourself because it's a lifetime process, it doesn't end with graduation. Now with digital taking off, I've probably had to do more personal research in the past ten years than I did in the ten years before that. It never ends.

And I learn just as much from everyone here at RedUser as anyone has learned from me, so thank you all.

[Petr Dvorak]

... If you'd have asked me about those topics 3 years ago, I would have been clueless. Forums like these are god-sends for those of us who never went to film school. So thanks, guys!

:cheers2:

DITTO exactly :yesnod:
DVXuser was great start.
All theory is from net but I need way more real experience.

Big thanks from me too! :thumbsup:

[mikeburton]

It's important to be as proactive as possible to further your knowledge and carreer. As much as I learned about the Phantom from research on the web it was vital to make a concious effort to bug my local rental house over the course of a few months to get hands on time with the gear. Reading and doing are two different things although both valuable nothing can give you the experience like working with the gear in a production environment or at least a live test. The nice thing about what we do is that are business gear is fun to work with so spending free time learning it is usually fun. That's why I'm in the business. The day it's not fun or challenging I'll find something else to fill my recreational time until I feel confident enough to pursue it as a carreer path. But yes, thank you to all the wise individuals who frequent this and many other sites/blogs.

[Zac C]

You're right, I've saved over 100k in college fee's, and learned everything online, thanks to you guys....


Now how do I go about splitting the checks? :biggrin:

[Felix K.]

I never went to film school, but audio engineering school. I think what you have to understand about every form of education is that it can only bring you this far. I say it would be sad if you didn't learn more after film school than in it. But it tought you what the field is structured like, what areas there are.
And the most important part is: you get to know people who think and want the same things. Sure you can do that on the internet but it's not the same as talking in your common room about a movie you just watched together. Or try stuff together instead of just talking about it.
Apart from that I too am so greatful for all the knowledge that is put into this forum. I feel that especially in the USA (and the U.K.) there is a different approach to passing on knowledge and helping people who are new to a subject; different to Germany anyway.
So keep it up! :)

Have a nice Scarlet-Day!

[Peter Strietmann]

I started making films and videos in the late 60. My first underwater shoot was with a kodak super8 and two baggies twist tied over it. I studied photography in the 70s at Ohio Institute of Photography and got a associates degree there, then in the 80s I graduated from San Francisco Art Institute. The Red User site has been tremendously informative in keeping up with imagemaking. I would like to thank all who contribute to these threads, a very knowledgable community of people.

[Vince K]

Tom,

"...god-sends for those of us who never went to film school."

god-sends for some of us who went to film school as well.

David

bingo!!!

[Rick Presas]

In addition to all the information that can be found here that you couldnt get in film school, the internet (and this forum for sure) also helped me SELECT my film school.

I went to a 1-year certificate digital film school (CDIA-Boston University) because i had researched several school and that one seemed the most "hands-on"

I had never touched a real camera in my life, let alone any NLE program.

Within 9 months i was FCP certified and had 7 legitimate shorts, which i produced (5), directed (6), DP'ed (1) or edited (5) under my belt

Several of my friends from "real" 4 year film schools looked at my demo reel and were blown away. They spent MUCH more money, and TIME, and got less "real" hands-on experience in making movies.

If it weren't for the internet, i would not have known that that school even existed. And since graduating, the Net, and this forum, have taught me more about REAL filmmaking than a 4-year program could have ever taught me.

[Elsie N]

College is a resource just as the internet is -- some people can take better advantage of that resource than others. But the burden is still on the individual to make the effort to learn.

I'm more or less self-taught, an autodidact. I tried to transfer into the film program at UCLA as an undergraduate, but my grades from being a pre-med student weren't good enough to get into the competitive film department.

So I ended up studying English Lit and creative writing at UCLA. In the meantime, I spent hours and hours at the Theater Arts Library studying filmmaking on my own, while shooting my own Super-8 projects. I also helped friends that were in the USC film program, though I was envious that they were actual film students.

I then spent almost four more years after graduation studying film on my own, and still hanging out at the UCLA libraries. I read every issue of American Cinematographer going back to the mid 1920's, and I re-read every issue starting in 1970 several times over (this was in the early 1980's so I'm only talking about a decade's worth of issues that I re-read). I read every issue of International Photographer (now ICG Magazine) going back to the 1950's. Same goes for the SMPTE Journal (though much of that was over my head). Not to mention all the books....

During this time, I made lot of short films in Super-8. By the time I went to film school as an MFA student when I was 26, I had been learning filmmaking on my own for a decade. When I took my basic cinematography class under professor Kris Malkiewicz, I told him I read his two books several times over already, and after getting 100% on all his tests, he made me his TA for the years I was there. I also later got to work on the 3rd Edition of his textbook years later.

My point is that whether or not you go to school, you are responsible for teaching yourself because it's a lifetime process, it doesn't end with graduation. Now with digital taking off, I've probably had to do more personal research in the past ten years than I did in the ten years before that. It never ends.

And I learn just as much from everyone here at RedUser as anyone has learned from me, so thank you all.
Hah! David,

It's as though you are the Christ and I'm the anti-Christ of learning.

I was thrown out of my first college and walked out on my own from my second one. And of the different occupations I've had over the years, all but one were apprenticeships or OJT. The exception was army training. In Basic Training, for example, I was instructed in the art of hand-to-hand combat. When I next went home on leave, I intentionally picked a fight to utilize what I had learned. The first thing I learned was that while I was using hand-to-hand, my opponents were using all four limbs. I learned more from that practical experience than I ever did in the more formal hand-to-hand training. That is to say, I have never had a physical altercation since.

But this forum is more collegial than any schooling I've ever had. Maybe I'm just more receptive but for an example, when a Daniel Browning and a Pawel Achtel get into a discussion over sensors, I get intrigued. And while I cannot consciously recall one thing about their arguments at this time, I think it is buried in my subconscious somewhere and may in some way lead to an AHA! understanding at some future date.

(something I read just this morning showed scientifically that in a mouse's brain at least, new neurons are formed within one hour of learning something new. But to make room for the new growth, some old neurons had to be destroyed. The memory the old neurons helped form is still there, but the tools that created the memory are thrown away).

I'm just saying that some fit into the structured University model of learning (along with the practical experience of teaching oneself, as you suggested) while others of us may have to begin by sticking our hand in the fire, and then learn to learn on our own.

Furthermore, I think Reduser.net is a good combination of the two approaches.

[David Mullen ASC]

Everyone needs variations on practice and theory combined with personal real-world experience, but some people have an excess of one over the other.

I, for one thing, believe strongly in the notion of the importance of activity followed by inactivity and reflection so you can absorb what you've learned and think about where to go next, as opposed to just moving from one life experience to another without any down time for reflection and perhaps, redirection.

Sometimes there is a certain anti-intellectualism out there that devalues academic learning over practice and real-world experience but I think all of that is necessary (even if the academic part is non-traditional or self-administered.)

But I agree that the ultimate test is the execution of the lesson in a real-world situation, if that's your ultimate goal in the first place, to be a practitioner of the craft, not an academic or theoretician. This is why I still believe that the proof is in the pudding, so to speak, with these new camera technologies -- specs and theories aside, how do the darn things actually work in real-world situations and what types of images do they create?

[Elsie N]

Everyone needs variations on practice and theory combined with personal real-world experience, but some people have an excess of one over the other.

I, for one thing, believe strongly in the notion of the importance of activity followed by inactivity and reflection so you can absorb what you've learned and think about where to go next, as opposed to just moving from one life experience to another without any down time for reflection and perhaps, redirection.

Sometimes there is a certain anti-intellectualism out there that devalues academic learning over practice and real-world experience but I think all of that is necessary (even if the academic part is non-traditional or self-administered.)

But I agree that the ultimate test is the execution of the lesson in a real-world situation, if that's your ultimate goal in the first place, to be a practitioner of the craft, not an academic or theoretician. This is why I still believe that the proof is in the pudding, so to speak, with these new camera technologies -- specs and theories aside, how do the darn things actually work in real-world situations and what types of images do they create?
All so very true. And as further proof there is the acknowledgment of what you have to date accomplished, and the lack of anything that I presently am able to acknowledge as an accomplishment.

[Shawn Nelson]

I was just musing about this idea the other day. Because of the internet, sites like this and DVXUser and CML and so forth, I've been able to learn at a rate that vastly outperforms those who came before. Not that I'm any better of course, but I can learn so much faster. What we can be capable of because of such a vast increase in available knowledge is interesting musing. It's like the printing press invention times 100.

[Tom Lowe]

The exception was army training. In Basic Training, for example, I was instructed in the art of hand-to-hand combat. When I next went home on leave, I intentionally picked a fight to utilize what I had learned. The first thing I learned was that while I was using hand-to-hand, my opponents were using all four limbs. I learned more from that practical experience than I ever did in the more formal hand-to-hand training. That is to say, I have never had a physical altercation since.

:biggrin:

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The internet is a very powerful tool indeed. Reduser.net is one of the most amazing forums out there, IMO. The amount of information sharing that goes on here is unbelievable at times.

I'm another that never went to film school (Comp. Sci. and Civil Engineering). I was never interested in filmmaking until after college anyway...

As for me, I'm a self-learner and need hands-on experience to actually learn something. I do not do well in a classroom environment, even if I'm there completely of my own free will and wanting to learn the subject presented. Just can't do it. I can't stay awake through a typical 1 hour lecture or seminar to save my life. Taking notes always turned into elaborate flipbook comics or re-writing a segment of code for game I was programming. Classic textbook case of acute ADD right here. Oh, how I wish the internet was what it is today when I was in school. The only reasons I survived college is I was pretty good at teaching myself what I needed to learn by fumbling through it. And because my girlfriend, who later became my wife, was my polar opposite. She was teachers' pet, with honors, and helped me drag my bumbling ass through. Although, I could still write a better term paper and she was lost with physics and chemistry without me, so I guess it was mutual...

[Steve Gibby]

Learning the image acquisition industry is a dynamic (never static) aggregate endeavor. I believe it can't necessarily be viewed as a destination, where at some point "you've arrived". Nobody has every really "arrived" - it is rather a lifelong journey, with milestones and waypoints along the route. The point at which you feel "you've arrived" is the point at which you effectively stop learning - a very dangerous choice in a highly-competitive industry.

Knowledge of any kind should merely let the possessor realize how much they still don't know. Everyone should approach each day expecting to learn some new things about their craft - and in review if they didn't learn anything new they should redouble their efforts.

No matter which portion of the still or motion media industries we work in we should strive to be equal parts artist, techie, manager, and journalist. We'll need to wear all those hats regularly.

My pathway through this industry has been:

!969 - Started into still photography. Bought a Nikon F and lenses, and some good photography books, and started shooting. Every spare moment for years forward I'd be reading about photography, then testing out what I'd read.

1970's - I weaseled my way onto television and film crews as an assistant. I would watch closely, ask as many questions as I could, and eventually got some opportunities to shoot. I went to college, finished my Bachelor's Degree (Major: Ancient Near Eastern Studies, Minor: Business), then immediately afterwards, launched into a college television production curriculum for two years. Simultaneous with that I worked as an assistant and camera operator on tons of professional crews - thus I was getting the "book" learning at school, and the real-world practical application of it in productions.

1980's - I now was entrenched as a regular camera operator, for pro-level TV productions, but in the non-union environment I worked in, I was able to progressively learn scriptwriting, editing, directing, and producing. On every production I worked on I asked every question I could think of, watch the other people closely, and was just an all around "knowledge sponge".

1990's - by this decade I was well-connected for all the skill sets I wanted to work in. But I still sought new knowledge every work day. When I'd have free time I'd be constantly out shooting with my camera systems - to learn new skill sets, and to generate stock footage. As camera systems and NLE's evolved I worked hard to evolve with them.

2000's - With the growth of the Internet, I could now be a member of multiple online tech forums, scouring them daily to learn and share. Opportunities opened up to write tech and production review articles for trade magazines, which a I did a lot of. Every day I closely monitor about 25 still photography and motion media industry web sites. The knowledge gained there is hugely valuable. After all these years I still approach each day expecting to learn some new things.

Nobody is born knowing anything. From birth we start accumulating knowledge. How much knowledge we gather depends on our passion, initiative, and commitment to learn. In short, we pay dues for what we learn - there really are few shortcuts for new workers. But they can fast-track their knowledge quotient, by picking the brains of veterans, combing online forums, schools, workshops, seminars, and by flat out getting out in the field for some hands-on learning. All the "book learning" in the world won't help you unless you put it to practical application in real-world production scenarios.

Remember, industry veterans who have succeeded, have built their knowledge base step by step, in a never-ending quest to improve themselves. RED User is a great source of learning about RED and related subjects. I've learned a ton of things from others here on RED user. I share things here, but I also learn things here.

I hope the above info helps some of you...

[Joseph Ward]

Don't forget that your failures or mistakes can teach you valuable lessons. Thank God for new people, they won't have to learn on film and waste lost of time and money. I remember how I wanted to cry when I processed my photography films wrong and the photos were due for class. But I learned not to rush certain things and know a little where my strengths and weaknesses are.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Another interesting point about college is that by the time you graduate now you're out of date. You can never depend on school for more than the fundamentals because it's impossible to keep up to date on the latest workflows and advancements. When I graduated there was no RED camera. When I graduated compositing was still mostly a 2D operation. Now 3d projection is just 'the way it's done', it's almost old hat.

Learning is always a process and if you want to stay up to date you either have to never graduate or continue on your own, which is where forums and communities are so powerful for spreading a trick that might have once resided at just one studio and only been made public when an artist changed jobs and brought the knowledge with them, now the tricks disseminate in a matter of months.