The CF module...

[Jannard]

RED ONE customers really need to buy the CF module. It costs $500.

While it is not mandatory to add it, it sure makes life easy. It is the cheapest way to record on RED. It is the lightest recording option. If you are on the road, you'll have the best chance to find an emergency recording solution with CF. I could go on...

One thing that has been asked is why we didn't make this standard equipment. Truth is that we guessed on the price of the RED ONE at NAB 2006. And given the $2500 allowance, there is no more room for "gifts".

That said, if you can afford the camera, you can't afford to not buy the CF option. (is that a double negative?)

Jim

[donatello b]

how many gigs will the RED CF cards be by the end of the year ?
what's available for those getting REDs 1-50?

[John Wee]

I dont think just any CF card would be usable ? Would be nice if RED can tell us the minimum specs CF card that is acceptable.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Carrying 4k footage in your inner pocket is also kinda nice...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

That all makes perfect sense to me, Jim -- even the double negative. :)

I'm also curious about what RED will be offering for CF cards now and potentially by the end of the year. I see that PQI has released a 300X 16GB CF card. I'm unaware of the price or immediate availability...

[number6]

Jim, are you sayin', without commitin', to maybe, 32 GB serial CF cards by early next year? Someone suggested that serial instead of parallel cards were in the pipeline. And if that's correct, would a current CF module handle serial CF cards in the future?

[KETCH ROSSi]

I agreed 100%,

I have used CF with my Canon gear and never ones had problems, the files on the 1Ds M2 get very large and shooting continuos puts the CF to the works again never had a single problem with it, mostly I used Sandisk but hope RED solution to be much better.

I will most positively get the CF module on all my 3 RED's, despite of the other modules I will get.

Ciao,
KETCH ROSSI

[donatello b]

i'd be very happy with 16gigs to start = client buys them and that is their master !!

[Gabriel Beaudry]

If you don't plan on using CF cards, you can always look at the CF module as a back up option.

[Jannard]

Currently, 8GB cards that we will certify are available. We believe that in October we will certify 16GB cards. It seems possible that in Q2 of 2008 32GB cards might become available.

We love Compact Flash. The real alternative is RED Drive with 2.5" flash drives. But prices won't be competitive until after the 1st of the year.

Jim

[Dan Blanchett]

Sounds like a "no brainer."

[Emanuel A.]

Actually, it had been my 1st choice on the Flash memory side, so... Thanks anyway for your care.


Currently, 8GB cards that we will certify are available. We believe that in October we will certify 16GB cards. It seems possible that in Q2 of 2008 32GB cards might become available.

We love Compact Flash. The real alternative is RED Drive with 2.5" flash drives. But prices won't be competitive until after the 1st of the year.

Jim

EDIT -- Here's an open thread on the subject:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=923

[Darwin]

I and others have asked this before, with no answer. Will we have the ability to record on a continuous rceording loop to the CF cards? Kind of like the HVX does with the P2 cards.

[Greg M]

Is the raw port user changeable? And can cameras with the raw port also have a CF card?

[Sean]

Good advice! I love the sound of traveling light!

[Darwin]

Is the raw port user changeable? And can cameras with the raw port also have a CF card?

The way I understand it ...It's one or the other, and You can change out one for the other.

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

I agreed 100%,

I have used CF with my Canon gear and never ones had problems, the files on the 1Ds M2 get very large and shooting continuos puts the CF to the works again never had a single problem with it, mostly I used Sandisk but hope RED solution to be much better.

I will most positively get the CF module on all my 3 RED's, despite of the other modules I will get.

Ciao,
KETCH ROSSI

So where will you put all your other modules??

[Gabriel Beaudry]

The way I understand it ...It's one or the other, and You can change out one for the other.

The Raw Port is a factory install, unless I missed something in the last months, so you cannot change it yourself.

[Darwin]

The Raw Port is a factory install, unless I missed something in the last months, so you cannot change it yourself.


Whether or not Red has to install it or not..is not the point! Point is you can not have the both on the camera at the same time.

[Rick Darge]

Jim,

What do you anticipate the price of the 8GB certified cards to be? $200~

[Craig Harding]

I suspect a lot of people ordering cameras may be in a similar position to us. We've only recently ordered a Red One (after I finally managed to persuade my business partners). We've put a deposit down on the camera, but haven't ordered any accessories at this stage. I'm assuming that although the accessories may see some delays, they won't be as bad as the camera itself, and we can put our order in for accessories a month or so out from the anticipated ship date.

Perhaps this is a bad assumption - I'd appreciate some guidance if this is the case. But we didn't want to tie up another few thousand dollars in deposit for accessories when the money can stay in our bank for a few more months - as much as Red might prefer that we didn't. :)

Anyway, at this stage we're planning to get the standard bits, including both zoom lenses and the B4 adapter, and a CF adapter.

[Darwin]

I and others have asked this before, with no answer. Will we have the ability to record on a continuous rceording loop to the CF cards? Kind of like the HVX does with the P2 cards.

Anyone know?

[Steve Freebairn]

Jim,

What do you anticipate the price of the 8GB certified cards to be? $200~

They are 189 at BH right now. They'll only come down. a 300x card provides roughly 40 megabytes/sec which is ample room over the approximate 27 mb/sec that has been listed (although Jim said it was a little more complicated than just a steady 27).

[Stuart English]

Will we have the ability to record on a continuous rceording loop to the CF cards?

Not in the initial release of the camera Darwin. The capability of the camera will evolve over time via software updates.

What kind of pre-record times are you looking for BTW?

[Desert Rune]

One thing that has been asked is why we didn't make this standard equipment. Truth is that we guessed on the price of the RED ONE at NAB 2006. And given the $2500 allowance, there is no more room for "gifts".

Truth is Jim, the price of the Red One body is pretty low at $17K for 4K acquisition. I wouldn't be surprised, nor shocked if you choose to raise the price of the Red after all current reservations have been filled.

[Roberto B]

no way man.. this would be a bad marketing move.. what do you think jj is?.. one of the reasons for the red success is that magical $17,500.. it works like a trade mark.. brand's value my friend..

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

I just ordered today and know that I can modify the order at any time, so I didn't make my onboard storage selection with full reflection. But I opted for the SATA flash after reading Brook Willard's excellent FAQ document at the top of this forum. Seemed like the recording times (always a concern for me) and $/GB were in its favor, and a cursory net search led me to believe that more and more SATA flash drives are coming, driven by laptop technology, so that prices will be continually going down while capacities go up.

Jim, are you favoring the CF for just "today" or do you anticipate it being the most economical and practical onboard option for the next year or more?

[Häakon]

The capability of the camera will evolve over time via software updates.
This is one of my favorite things about RED - there are so many places the camera can go, and I know the team is going to take us there and beyond. If you can dream it, they'll make it happen.

Making obsolescence obsolete indeed!! :biggrin:

[Jim Arthurs]

That said, if you can afford the camera, you can't afford to not buy the CF option.
Jim

This isn't fair... I DEMAND to pay proprietary P2 prices, and then have the option to record lack-luster HD-like footage to them!!!

Panasonic has trained me well...

[S. Um]

Jim,

I don't mind buying the flash module, but for EFP situations, there will be many times when I will need longer recording times. For this reason, I was also planning to get a Red drive. Since you're urging people to ge the flash module, does this mean there's some reason we shouldn't get the Red drive or Red RAM?

[Rick Darge]

This isn't fair... I DEMAND to pay proprietary P2 prices, and then have the option to record lack-luster HD-like footage to them!!!

Panasonic has trained me well...


Hahaha..

I was watching the 2k pro-res footage earlier on my macbook.. after watching it, i jumped back to this hvx-200 project i've been working.. wow, it looked so soft, bland and foul compared to what I just watched... it's such a poor excuse for HD.. weird, because after I got my HVX, I thought the picture was so clear and crisp. I lied to myself and said this was the new revolution, a mini-varicam..

i heart red

[Jaime Vallés]

CF or bust!!!! I don't trust hard drives. 1.8" SATA and ExpressCard are still out of reach of most people, and the RED-RAM is a little too pricey for me. CF is solid, cheap, and available.

Can't wait for those 16GB cards!

[Rob Lohman]

Jim, are you favoring the CF for just "today" or do you anticipate it being the most economical and practical onboard option for the next year or more?

I'm not Jim and I can't really see in the future, but after having shot things on CF I'm hooked. It's one of the easiest ways to record, just slot a little CF card in the side of your camera.

Someone else mentioned 4K in your pocket. Hell yeah! I've done that multiple times. You have to be careful to not loose 'em :clown2:

Terabytes of data has been shot with RED on CF. Would be nice to have 16 or 32 which will be here soon enough.

[Greg Greene]

How is footage from CF cards transfered to ones desktop ?

Best

Greg

[Paolo Tinari]

Hahaha..

I was watching the 2k pro-res footage earlier on my macbook.. after watching it, i jumped back to this hvx-200 project i've been working.. wow, it looked so soft, bland and foul compared to what I just watched... it's such a poor excuse for HD.. weird, because after I got my HVX, I thought the picture was so clear and crisp. I lied to myself and said this was the new revolution, a mini-varicam..

i heart red

I feel the same even thou i coudnt watch the 2k footage. And with the M2 i feel even worse. But without the HVX i woudnt have start this (wich i dont know exactly where is taking me).

The CF solution is a real solution. Cant believe how much i paid 2 8gb P2 last year...

[Jannard]

How is footage from CF cards transfered to ones desktop ?

Best

Greg

A CF card reader...

Jim

[Justin O'Neill]

I'm sure it is the same as with SLR cameras: a USB or Firewire CF card reader. Some laptops come with CF readers built in as well.

[Häakon]

weird, because after I got my HVX, I thought the picture was so clear and crisp. I lied to myself and said this was the new revolution, a mini-varicam..
Haha, I actually blasted the HVX when it came out because I thought it was a piss-poor excuse for providing HD (still do) and almost got lynched off of DVXUser for it. Oh well, I know what my eyes see - and at least I'm honest! :) I think people just got caught up in the hype and didn't want to hear anything different. I admit that I was ready for the HVX to be the second coming, too... I just wasn't very happy with the footage.

Of course the "hype level" is easily ten times for RED what it was for the HVX, but the difference is that the RED footage actually leaves me speechless... these next few weeks can't go by fast enough!!!

[Daniel Reichenbach]

RED ONE customers really need to buy the CF module. It costs $500.



Thats a no brainer, it's on my list. With it you get 30 to 60 REDcoded frames out , tepending on the frame size. That's great. But: How do I get the 60 to 120 frames out without REDcode (See TechSpecs)? Do I need a RAWport for that right? And if yes: Can the CFmodule and the REDport be at the same time on the camera? If yes: How do I get the RAW data out for HighSpeed? With RED RAM? That would mean: For HighSpeed I need another 10'000 $ (RAWport/RED RAM)?

[Zach Nelson]

From what I understand, the only way to get the raw uncompressed data out (no RedCode) is through the RedPort. But you'll need to have a beefy system and network to handle 320M+/second. Since RedCode is wavelet-based, the compression is not visible, and hence no need to deal with the raw output (unless you really really really want to). Also, I believe you can only record to one device at a time. I'd assume that includes the RedPort.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

I worked with digital HighSpeed Cams (CMOS 1536x1024), they first store the RAW-frames on a RAM, then you store them on your Comp. With this system you can store from 1000 full size frames to 4000 windowed frames on the RAM (just a few seconds but thats enough with this speed) With this system, you just need some GB of RAM and a Labtop.

[Rob Lohman]

Can the CFmodule and the REDport be at the same time on the camera?

Answer to that would be no

[Rob Lohman]

But you'll need to have a beefy system and network to handle 320M+/second.......Also, I believe you can only record to one device at a time. I'd assume that includes the RedPort.

More like 1 GB/s at the top setting. You'll need a special recorder for that.

Yes to record to one device, I could see how you could record out of the RAW port at the same time though (this is not a promise for such a feature! Just a personal observation), just like you can with HD-SDI. The current limitation is more on the REDCODE flowing to your magazine / drive.

Everything subject to change, of course...

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Thanks Rob. So it was a good desicion to have a reservation for a second RED :shifty:. And the answer to the other technical questions? Can you bring light in that?

[Rob Lohman]

Not really. RAW port stuff is still under development. If any other RED team members have more insights they'll let you know....

[Daniel Reichenbach]

The conclusion for that: We will have to deal with 30 to 60 frames until there is an update in form of firmware-update or faster storage solutions or... Make no sense to buy a RAWport at the moment. Ok, just good to know.

[Luke Boyce]

Since there's only one CF slot, that means you'll have to reload every few minutes. Obviously, that's not a huge issue as it's similar to film, but with many of us used to P2 cards on HVX's and having the opportunity for the footage to roll over onto a second card while we unload the first, this could be somewhat of a compromise. Could the RED team enlighten us as to how fast and convenient shooting with the CF's are, being that they're only about 4 minutes of recording time at the moment? I'm not doubting Jim at all, but I'm just curious as to the convenience.

i always kind of knew that shooting to a small Solid State card was going to be the best option, but without having a second slot for footage to roll over in, I didn't know how efficient it would be. But clearly I haven't messed with it yet. Just looking for some experienced advice.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

all of us really dig the cf option.. i for one will be utilizing this as my main medium. especially since the gigs will go up and the price will eventually go down on flash in general

[Darwin]

Not in the initial release of the camera Darwin. The capability of the camera will evolve over time via software updates.

What kind of pre-record times are you looking for BTW?

Thank you very much for your response. :-)

[Sam Druckerman]

Hi Zakaree,

Congrats on the new job!! (I have inside Red envy)

Are you saying you're going to pass on the the Red drive?


all of us really dig the cf option.. i for one will be utilizing this as my main medium. especially since the gigs will go up and the price will eventually go down on flash in general

[Michael Mann]

It is the lightest recording option.
How light (including body, 18-50 and battery)?

[Jim Arthurs]

How is footage from CF cards transfered to ones desktop ?
Greg

By an ultra expensive proprietary CF deck... er, actually, one of these for 80 bucks US...

http://www.lexar.com/readers/pro_udma_reader.html

[Jim Arthurs]

I love both the CF and the RED DRIVE... since CF can't hold 300+ gig yet...

can't see not having them both and I'm sure the RED DRIVE is coming out quickly, if not for the first couple batches of cameras...

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

OK, but the questions is data rate. How much footage of redcode raw can enter in a 4GB card?

[Jim Arthurs]

You'd want to go with the 8gig card instead of the 4gig... and that will give you over 4 minutes at 27 MB/sec REDCODE RAW...

[Michael Schrengohst]

Hahaha..

I was watching the 2k pro-res footage earlier on my macbook.. after watching it, i jumped back to this hvx-200 project i've been working.. wow, it looked so soft, bland and foul compared to what I just watched... it's such a poor excuse for HD.. weird, because after I got my HVX, I thought the picture was so clear and crisp. I lied to myself and said this was the new revolution, a mini-varicam..

i heart red

LOL, yes I know what you mean. I don't want to show any
customers any RED footage until I get mine. I am doing a
Green Screen composite I shot with the HVX last week.
As long as I can run it through AE to de-noise it and
sharpen it up - it is almost acceptable.

[Sean Michael Johnston]

Are there plans to make a version of the battery mount without the hard drive cage? So when using CF cards or other on-board media the total size could be reduced a bit more?

[Jeremy Hughes]

OK, but the questions is data rate. How much footage of redcode raw can enter in a 4GB card?

4GB = 4096MB
4K REDCODE RAW @ 24fps = 27MBs per second(approx.)
4096 devided by 27 devided by 60 = 2.5

Two minutes and 30 seconds(approx.)

4GB = 4096MB
2K REDCODE RAW @ 24fps = 7MBs per second(approx.)
4096 devided by 7 devided by 60 = 9.7

Nine minutes and forty two seconds(approx)

32GB cards will hold twenty minutes of 4K and seventy seven minutes and thirty six seconds of 2K. Both at 24fps, REDCODE RAW.

But are compression ratios still variable?

[Paul Leeming]

I have a suggestion to the Red Team re: the RAW port option - why not add the slot and circuitry for the CF port into the RAW port itself if you can fit it in, since the only other option for people who order the RAW port is to actually remove it to fit a CF port which I understand is factory fitted and removed.

I'm not in the market for the RAW port myself but I'm sure those who are would appreciate such a feature, especially given the RAW port is an additional US$6,500.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

AFAIK, the FLASH module attaches to the camera via SATA. So if someone loses the side-mount SATA interface by installing the RAW port, would it be possible to attach the FLASH module to the other SATA connector -- where we attach RED DRIVES? Perhaps some form of adapter/mounting sled could facilitate this, or even a FLASH module that can be mounted like a RED DRIVE?

[Kevin Halverson]

Are there plans to make a version of the battery mount without the hard drive cage? So when using CF cards or other on-board media the total size could be reduced a bit more?

Great question, I was wondering the same thing.

[Nik Manning]

no way man.. this would be a bad marketing move.. what do you think jj is?.. one of the reasons for the red success is that magical $17,500.. it works like a trade mark.. brand's value my friend..

I think only if they raise the body price over $19,999 would it lose the same associated value. It just has to be said it is priced under 20k to really amaze.

[donatello b]

IMO - if RED was 25K at NAB 2006 it would still be magical .... what else are you going to buy that has 35mm sensor & 4k ??

[Nik Manning]

IMO - if RED was 25K at NAB 2006 it would still be magical .... what else are you going to buy that has 35mm sensor & 4k ??

Never said it still wouldn't be magical. :)

[Alexis Hanawalt]

Seems worth mentioning that the CF option isn't all that "magical" for those of us intending to shoot documentary subjects - except that I guess it's good to just have something on the camera to record to at all times.

[Michael Lindsay]

....CF option isn't all that "magical" for those of us intending to shoot documentary subjects

Does anyone know if the CF option is 1,2 or more slots... Can't rember if this is answered. Maybe they will do a Mrk 11 CF option later..

Doco work with 2 slot 16gb (or 32gb next year) sounds Omagical to me.. Especially as you may work with S16 crop data rates (Don't know any other high quality format with that kind of running time)

regards

Michael

[Zack Birlew]

I have a suggestion to the Red Team re: the RAW port option - why not add the slot and circuitry for the CF port into the RAW port itself if you can fit it in, since the only other option for people who order the RAW port is to actually remove it to fit a CF port which I understand is factory fitted and removed.

I'm not in the market for the RAW port myself but I'm sure those who are would appreciate such a feature, especially given the RAW port is an additional US$6,500.

That would be great!:w00t:

<---- Needs RAW Port, thus can't get Flash :sad:

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Hi Zakaree,

Congrats on the new job!! (I have inside Red envy)

Are you saying you're going to pass on the the Red drive?

let me just first say this.. "im not a red sales man" so dont think im trying to upsell.. but no.. i will be getting one if not 2 red drives as well.. most likely, i will start with one drive and see how the flash world starts to move.. red drive is a great option for documentary and other "long take" situations.

[Sanjin Jukic]

CF is the way to go.
All major DSLRs from Canon, Nikon, Leica, Sony, Fuji, Sigma etc...
are using CF cards. Also VIPER'S Grass Valley™ Venom FlashPak
a card module is based on CF. Arri D20 is using that dock-able module too.
To repeat again: that's the way to go.

CF card module.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=72649&postcount=19

[number6]

I'm not in the market for the RAW port myself but I'm sure those who are would appreciate such a feature, especially given the RAW port is an additional US$6,500.

Which begs the question, "Who NEEDS Raw?" I mean, seriously, who in the market will be using it? Will it be major studios? If Redcode Raw is good enough for the movies being shot at present, who would have need for more data than a feature motion picture maker? Not trying to be a SA, just trying to FO TSMOC.

[Curran Giddens]

"Who NEEDS the uncompressed RAW port?" More like "Who needs 4k @ 60fps or 2k @ 120fps?" I would only use the RAW port for the highest framerate the camera is capable of. Then I would compress the footage to Redcode RGB soon after recording to make it easier to deal with in post.

BTW, what does this mean?

"Not trying to be a SA, just trying to FO TSMOC."

[number6]

"Who NEEDS the uncompressed RAW port?" More like "Who needs 4k @ 60fps or 2k @ 120fps?" I would only use the RAW port for the highest framerate the camera is capable of. Then I would compress the footage to Redcode RGB soon after recording to make it easier to deal with in post.

BTW, what does this mean?

"Not trying to be a SA, just trying to FO TSMOC."

O.K., I can see where the 60 fps would come in handy... but if the camera could be persuaded to deliver the same thing in Redcode Raw, would you still feel the need when the Redcode delivers visually lossless compression?

SA (smart ass) FO TSMOC (find out To Satisfy My Oun Curiousity... probably a little bit too much shorthand, will refrain in future.)

[Rob Lohman]

Does anyone know if the CF option is 1,2 or more slots... Can't rember if this is answered.

One CF slot...

[Joel Kaye]

wow, it looked so soft, bland and foul compared to what I just watched... it's such a poor excuse for HD.. weird, because after I got my HVX, I thought the picture was so clear and crisp. I lied to myself and said this was the new revolution, a mini-varicam..

i heart red

A lot of people got mad at me when I came to that conclusion after purchasing one the first HVX's and then doing my own tests vs. other stuff out there. People just didn't want to believe it... some still don't. IMHO they were kool-aid drinkers.

NOW other people I know are accusing me of being a RED Kool-Aid drinker. I've seen that footage up close and personal and I know what I know. RED is the real deal. I just hope it works without too many hiccups.

[Curran Giddens]

O.K., I can see where the 60 fps would come in handy... but if the camera could be persuaded to deliver the same thing in Redcode Raw, would you still feel the need when the Redcode delivers visually lossless compression?


Nope. I wouldn't need the RAW port if I could get the maximum framerates in Redcode RAW onboard. Luckily the camera is modular. RED could just replace the processor that does the Redcode RAW compression with a new one that is capable of processing the higher framerates. One of my favorite features of the RED ONE.

[number6]

Nope. I wouldn't need the RAW port if I could get the maximum framerates in Redcode RAW onboard. Luckily the camera is modular. RED could just replace the processor that does the Redcode RAW compression with a new one that is capable of processing the higher framerates. One of my favorite features of the RED ONE.

Totally agree... I expect to be using the same cameras 10, 20 years from now. But probably with an entirely new set of guts.

[Joe Aurili]

Totally agree... I expect to be using the same cameras 10, 20 years from now. But probably with an entirely new set of guts.

I think I would pay a little extra for a new shell, to avoid 20 years of scratches and dings :)

[Greg Voevodsky]

Any chance of adding more than one CF slot module on the side - 2 slots like the new Nikon D300 would be awesome. 4 Slots even better in a modular form that you just yank out the whole 4 pack or 2 two packs (since there are 2 pack readers) and put another one or 2 back in?

And if you could record a backup at the same time two the 2nd card like Nikon if you want, that would be really cool.

Could the RED RAM get modified into a 4 slot CF Holder?

[number6]

I think I would pay a little extra for a new shell, to avoid 20 years of scratches and dings :)

No! No! Each scratch or ding would be a memory! Years from now when the first cameras are sent to the Smithsonian, the director or otherwise shooter, could be invited to tell visiting schoolkids that "this scratch was from so and so movie" and "this ding occurred when (blank) prima donna threw a prop at the camera because it revealed a wrinkle" (heh heh).

[Obin Olson]

This isn't fair... I DEMAND to pay proprietary P2 prices, and then have the option to record lack-luster HD-like footage to them!!!

Panasonic has trained me well...



Thank you Jim. I feel the same way! LOL I love the "HD like" bit....!!! :):):)

[Antoine Fabi]

Jim, Rob,

Is it possible in a near future to buy a multiple RED CF cards module as an expansion option ?

Is it technically feasible ?

Antoine

[Michael Morlan]

Right now, four minutes between card changes is just too disruptive on the narrative set - and hard to assure each and every card is properly burned, transited to the data wrangler, dumped, returned to the camera assistant, and cleared.

For myself, I will be buying the CF option and three RED Drives. Two drives will do duty on set and a third as a backup. The CF card system is for when the drive might be a bit strained by camera movement.

M

[Steve Freebairn]

Right now, four minutes between card changes is just too disruptive on the narrative set - and hard to assure each and every card is properly burned, transited to the data wrangler, dumped, returned to the camera assistant, and cleared.

For myself, I will be buying the CF option and three RED Drives. Two drives will do duty on set and a third as a backup. The CF card system is for when the drive might be a bit strained by camera movement.

M

This is what a technician is for. I think that pulling a CF card out of a slot, then sliding a blank CF card into a slot could be done in a few seconds. Also remember that card sizes will only go up. We'll be laughing at the 8 gb cards that we started with. I laugh at the 8mb card that came with my Gl2 a few years back. Even though I say all this, I still love the idea of having 4 slots for cf cards with a little light that can go red if it is full and green if it still has space. Then you could keep hot swapping them as the camera moves from card to card. This like many other features would have to be a software update in the future, but it seems like the RED team could work out the hardware now (I hope).

[Zakaree Sandberg]

4 min between card changes?
imagine shooting a film with 400ft magazines with film..
its the same thing..
have a few cards.. and instead of a 'loader" an "unloader" work the cards if you plan on reusing them..
cf cards on a narrative film only makes sense...

[donatello b]

"four minutes between card changes is just too disruptive on the narrative set - and hard to assure each and every card is properly burned, transited to the data wrangler, dumped, returned to the camera assistant, and cleared."

i would think for a narrative the Producer is buying the CF's cards and not re-using them = the CF card would be like film negative ... i believe Steven Sodemberg is using CF cards for his feature - changing every 4 min ...

does anybody know if S Sodemberg project is backing up their CF cards on set ? or handing off at end of day to person to dupe or ship back to US ?

"imagine shooting a film with 400ft magazines with film"

it's been done ... you know it going into a project and you work with it ...

[Edgar Pitts]

At 4 minutes per card, that is 15 cards per hour. To use these as a film negative would be $3000 per hour. Not too cost effective for shooting a feature...

[Kevin Halverson]

At 4 minutes per card, that is 15 cards per hour. To use these as a film negative would be $3000 per hour. Not too cost effective for shooting a feature...

Even if the shooting ratio hits 15:1 (poor in my opinion) and even if you are getting 6 minutes of coverage per day (fairly optimistic). Then the most you would need is 90 minutes per day. Even if you never reused a CF during a day, you would only need 22 cards at the most. More realistic numbers would reduce the number of cards further. I don't see needing anything but CFs for feature work.

[Jannard]

At 4 minutes per card, that is 15 cards per hour. To use these as a film negative would be $3000 per hour. Not too cost effective for shooting a feature...

Still quite a bit cheaper than film... and that is if you use the CF card as the master and don't re-use it. I do know that one director (you have heard of him) is planning on using the CF card as the master. And he is thrilled at the prospect. He gets instant dialies and the most secure form of archive known to man. One hour of footage in a feature is a lot of footage.

A documentary is another story...

Jim

[Matt Uhry]

At 4 minutes per card, that is 15 cards per hour. To use these as a film negative would be $3000 per hour. Not too cost effective for shooting a feature...

A bit less than just buying 35mm stock! Not that significant a cost on a typical studio feature, and one the producers and studios are used to.

One would think that the cards could be recycled after the edit room signed off that they had the footage and had made appropriate backups.

Anybody who's on the film want to weigh in ? I know you are out there...

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com


**edit J.J. beat me to it, you have to post quickly around here to be relevant**

[Edgar Pitts]

A bit less than just buying 35mm stock! Not that significant a cost on a typical studio feature, and one the producers and studios are used to.

For an indie producer, that can be a significant cost. I agree that a daily backup model would be a much better fit.

[Brook Willard]

On multicam shoots, footage counts can grow to crazy levels.

We have to step back and have a reality check here. We're talking about a reusable 400' magazine that you can fit into the change pocket of your jeans. Film magazines cost $10,000+ plus film, processing and transfer. Obviously nobody uses a film magazine one time, but I doubt many will use a CF card one time either. Turning a CF card into a "roll" makes no more sense than turning an entire magazine into a "roll".

Narrative: have 5-10 CF cards per camera [overkill, really] playing. Every time one gets full, have the loader/DIT take it and pump it into the post workflow in whatever way a given production sees fit. Confirm the data, wipe it and return it to set. Narrative features just don't shoot that much footage. And if they do? A CF card change is seconds, not minutes. No more threading, no more tensioning, no more pitch adjustment, no more gate check. Click out, click in, roll. It takes longer to focus a diopter.

Labeling the cards is easy. All your loader/DIT needs to do is create a system. Label the cards when they're hot, when they're clean. Label the roll number. Know which pocket hot cards go in, which pockets clean cards go in. It's like loading a magazine. Know where your air is, know where your negative is, know which side of the magazine is hot. Where's the tape? Who cares, you know it by feel. People have been loading magazines in tents for decades - keeping cards safe and transferring data properly just isn't that hard. Professionals are professional... they do it for a living.

On every shoot I've DIT'd or loaded, I've created a system. With one stupid exception that I take full responsibility for, I've never lost a second of footage and I've never lost a frame of film. With all my on-set experience, I personally prefer a shorter shooting medium. I don't want to have to wait for somebody to deal with my footage until the end of the day when it can happen right now. Starting the post process 30 seconds after cutting beats that any day. If I'm DIT or loader, having something to do and actively checking and confirming footage just makes everything work better. Wouldn't it be great to know you didn't get a bad batch of film or a hair in the gate right after a roll-out? Well now we can.

I don't know. The CF option rocks my world.

[Joel Kaye]

One hour of footage in a feature is a lot of footage.


Well... Apocolypse Now was 100 to 1.


"For feature films, shooting ratios of 20:1 to 100:1 are considered typical.

For the Borat crew, however, shooting impromptu, unrehearsed live events with as many as five cameras, conventional ratios went out the window, according to Thomas. “They shot 450 hours of footage,” he said. “And we cut it down to 82 minutes.”
http://nabdaily.imaspub.com/pages/s.0007/t.4954.html

That's a lot of CF Cards. :-)

[Brook Willard]

Well... Apocolypse Now was 100 to 1.


"For feature films, shooting ratios of 20:1 to 100:1 are considered typical.

For the Borat crew, however, shooting impromptu, unrehearsed live events with as many as five cameras, conventional ratios went out the window, according to Thomas. “They shot 450 hours of footage,” he said. “And we cut it down to 82 minutes.”
http://nabdaily.imaspub.com/pages/s.0007/t.4954.html

That's a lot of CF Cards. :-)

There's a good thing to consider. What about shoots that don't treat the RED like a film camera? There are directors who will happily roll the camera and hop into frame to get a true "hands-on" tweak with their actor's performance? Is the CF option perfect then?

Probably not. Good thing there are other options! Now we just have to have an editor cut footage down before dailies go out. :)

[Jannard]

If you are used to shooting a feature on film, the RED CF path is easy and very cheap. If you are used to shooting an HVX or a tape based camera, the CF Master program will seem expensive. That's why we have a RED Drive option. 2 hours for less than $1000. And you can offload and re-use. Or you can shoot CF, offload and re-use. And these aren't the only options.

When you shoot a film camera, there is only one option... shoot film. Although you do get to decide which film stock. :-)

Jim

[Matt Uhry]

For an indie producer, that can be a significant cost. I agree that a daily backup model would be a much better fit.

Yeah, I hear you. Using your CF cards once would be going way overboard for indies. I think we'll have a good ideas of what would be safe but reasonable data practices in the next few months.

I kind of like the idea of having a day pass before you blank any card, so someone in editorial can give you a thumbs up that they got every "roll".

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Joel Kaye]

Good thing there are other options! Now we just have to have an editor cut footage down before dailies go out. :)

I'm thinking you might be right about the fast dailies though. What if you have say 6 cards on set. You fill one, hand it to a laptop editor, they ingest it to one drive, back it up to another drive, drop each batch onto timeliness and scrub through them... set up a rough edit, clear the CF card and set it out to be reloaded.

Now you're getting rough cut on set and a daily report before you strike a lighting setup. (Ok, you could do this with a RED drive too).

That brings up another thought. Record to CF and RED Drive at the same time. RED Drive is your second or 3rd backup. I don't know if it's an option, but it would be a really good option.

Jim's got a good point about budgets though. Once you're spending $500k+ does the cost of CF masters matter? No.

[Darwin]

A bit less than just buying 35mm stock!

The cost of buying stock?..........Try the cost of development for that stock! I could not be happier with useing CF cards

[Brook Willard]

I thinking you might be right about the fast dailies though. What if you have say 6 cards on set. You fill one, hand it to a laptop editor, they ingest it to one drive, back it up to another drive, drop each batch onto timeliness and scrub through them... set up a rough edit, clear the CF card and set it out to be reloaded.

See, I think this goes well beyond a laptop on a Magliner. I'll put a post together on my day off.

[Jarred Land]

I can honestly say after months of recording 4k onto CF, i wouldn't know what to do without it. I can for sure see the need of some long form recording onto drives (had to today), but Honestly, 98% of the last 100 or so hours ive shot on RED.... has all been on compact flash. Its just so secure, solid and quick.

[Joel Kaye]

I can honestly say after months of recording 4k onto CF, i wouldn't know what to do without it. I can for sure see the need of some long form recording onto drives (had to today), but Honestly, 98% of the last 100 or so hours ive shot on RED.... has all been on compact flash. Its just so secure, solid and quick.

So have you been dumping the cards to another drive in the field or do you just have a bunch of cards with you when you go out?

[Gabriel Beaudry]

Here is something I just thought about, reading all the posts, for future accessories development. Why not a Red Drive with an extra CF slot, not to record on CF, but to dump your CF cards data on it.

[wshultz]

Hey Drizzt, is your name as in "dark elf"?

[Gabriel Beaudry]

Hey Drizzt, is your name as in "dark elf"?

YES! you are right wshultz.

[Rob Lohman]

1) shoot

2) swap cards

3) a couple of times during the day someone picks up the cards

4) if you're in a remote area, copy the cards onto a portable raid system in a truck

5) send the cards to editorial

6) ingest the cards into your system (preferably making a backup on tape or whatever you're using)

7) after all the shots have been confirmed copied & are OK (checking with the notes you got from set) send the cards back to set to be reused

You can skip step 7 if you don't want to reuse the cards... around 15 (4 GB) cards a day / per camera for this workflow is reasonable.

[Álex Montoya]

Yeah, I was thinking the same.

To have cards enough to cover a day, do a couple of backups, check them and reuse the cards the next day.

In December, that is, when I get my camera, the 16 GB cards will be a reality. I would need 5 or 6 of them for a standard day shoot. That'd be around 1500 euros maybe?

On my last short film I spent almost 3000 € in negative. And we were doing S16. And Kodak did a discount of a 40% because it was a short film.

[MikeHedge]

Jim... thank you. Team RED, thank you... will the 8GB Extreme IV work just as well as the Ducati SanDisk's? Are you finding a huge benefit in using the faster cards? Adorama has the 8GB Extreme IV (40MB/s) CF cards on sale for $155 http://www.adorama.com/IDSCF8GE4.html

PS what is the approx down time between card switches to get the RED back up and shooting again (timelapse)? if I'm in the middle of shooting timelapse... and the card becomes full, what happens when I get the new card in? do I need to re access the menu again? or is there a way to pause while I switch CF cards then continue capturing?? I would want to touch the camera as little as possible as to not bump the camera changing the framing of the timelapse...

mike

[peter roehsler]

That said, if you can afford the camera, you can't afford to not buy the CF option. (is that a double negative?)

Jim

... and as I said in a post months ago: I simply can´t afford not to buy a RED.

[JohnF]

Simple question:

I used (I can't remember the format) solid state cards for a digital stills shoot not long ago and I noticed they had a write-protect tab on them.

Do the CF cards that RED are recommending have such tabs?

I ask for the reason of paranoia! Imagine a quick one day shoot with small and very busy crew I can see the potential for mixing the clean CF cards with the now full cards and the potential for loss of footage.

I know it's unlikely but such a simple form of protection makes all the difference preventing these possibilities.

Okay, another question! Does RED automatically write over data/files on a CF card or will it just say "card full" or give a capacity reading?

Forgive my ignorance!!!

JohnF

[Yaque Silva-Doyle]

I think that it is important to note that there are 16 gig Cf cards already available. They have transfer rates that are compatible with red code at 4k.
for all who are interested http://www.pqi.com.tw/product2.asp?TT=1&cate1=21&PROID=309#1.
Jim, I also must Thank you most sincerely for incorporating the Cf cards into this camera and so highly suggesting them. I Always felt that the HVX cameras best attribute was a non tape based formate, regardless of price.
I will be contacting PQI to find out the current price of there 16 gig CF cards but I am fairly certain that it is very high now but soon to come down.

[Tonaci Tran]

I think that it is important to note that there are 16 gig Cf cards already available. They have transfer rates that are compatible with red code at 4k.
for all who are interested http://www.pqi.com.tw/product2.asp?TT=1&cate1=21&PROID=309#1.
Jim, I also must Thank you most sincerely for incorporating the Cf cards into this camera and so highly suggesting them. I Always felt that the HVX cameras best attribute was a non tape based formate, regardless of price.
I will be contacting PQI to find out the current price of there 16 gig CF cards but I am fairly certain that it is very high now but soon to come down.

I was looking into those as well, however, I can't find a single store to order it from. Plus, no gaurantee that these pqi will work since Jim stated "Not all 300x work." We'll have to wait until friday to see the official list.

http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=72735&postcount=7
"Too optimistic... since we have changed how we are recording REDCODE RAW (variable file size) it is not so easy to certify a CF card. A 266x Transcend will work under some conditions, then readily drop frames on a complex scene. Not all 300x work. I think at today's prices, $199 seems about right for a certified RED 8GB CF card. Prices should drop over time. But there is currently a CF card shortage. The SanDisk Ducati looks like it will work, but prices on that card is over $300 for 8GB. Remember that not all CF cards really perform as spec'd. We are discovering the secrets of the flash industry.

Jim."

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I know RED is aware of the PQI cards... They have been mentioned several times here on the site over the past week or so, even in this very thread. I think for RED to offer them (or any other card), the cards have to pass the qualification test and be available in sufficient quantity. Just because a card claims it can to 40MB/s or more and claims it's "300X" doesn't mean that cards actually do, let alone with every byte being written on that card.

I feel confident that 16GB cards will be more readily available within the next couple months. This is going to happen before most of us get our cameras I think. ...It's the first 500 or so RED cameras that will have to "tough it out" with 8GB cards. :)

[Craig Schober]

Simple question:

I used (I can't remember the format) solid state cards for a digital stills shoot not long ago and I noticed they had a write-protect tab on them.

Do the CF cards that RED are recommending have such tabs?

I ask for the reason of paranoia! Imagine a quick one day shoot with small and very busy crew I can see the potential for mixing the clean CF cards with the now full cards and the potential for loss of footage.

I know it's unlikely but such a simple form of protection makes all the difference preventing these possibilities.

Okay, another question! Does RED automatically write over data/files on a CF card or will it just say "card full" or give a capacity reading?

Forgive my ignorance!!!

JohnF

it sounds like you were using sd (secure digital) cards. they have a little slider on the side to lock and unlock them. mmc (mobile memory card?) format is an identical standard that doesn't include a safety lock but both sd and mmc are smaller and thinner and preferred by dslr people more than digital video people. i don't think a mechanical locking mechanism is built into the cf format but you could always lock the card through software. i just don't know if the redone would ignore a software lock or even be able to see it. either way, you might create confusion and problems just by trying to lock off cards because many people will assume a card has gone bad because you can't write to it and they don't see an obvious lock slider on the outside of the card.

[laguun]

1) shoot

2) swap cards

3) a couple of times during the day someone picks up the cards

4) if you're in a remote area, copy the cards onto a portable raid system in a truck

5) send the cards to editorial

6) ingest the cards into your system (preferably making a backup on tape or whatever you're using)

7) after all the shots have been confirmed copied & are OK (checking with the notes you got from set) send the cards back to set to be reused

You can skip step 7 if you don't want to reuse the cards... around 15 (4 GB) cards a day / per camera for this workflow is reasonable.

Hi Rob,

thats the deluxe workflow, and it makes perfectly sense.
for the species common starving indie vulgaris however, i would recommend:
1) shoot
2) swap cards
3) copy cf-card onto notebook at the set.
4) backup data to external disk
5) load cards into editorial
6) after all the shots have been confirmed copied & are OK (checking with the notes you got from set) send the cards back to the camera to be reused

that way, it should be possible to work with 4-8 cards per camera i suppose.
Did i miss something or does that sound like a doable plan?

p.s.
girls & guys, there are different speeds of cardreaders as well, lets add them to the discussion. the fastest we have come along so far was the sandisk reader, much faster than anything we have seen integrated in notebooks.

[JohnF]

Cheers for that Wigby!

A thought on workflow issues though.

Anyone know of a simple way to set-up a macro to carry out Laguun's suggestion?

ie insert cf card into laptop/reader, launch macro, and the card is copied to the internal and external drive with effectively one mouse-click. (maybe including data verification)

Hopefully this would make life easier for all concerned...

JohnF

[Joe Carney]

Hi Rob,

thats the deluxe workflow, and it makes perfectly sense.
for the species common starving indie vulgaris however, i would recommend:
1) shoot
2) swap cards
3) copy cf-card onto notebook at the set.
4) backup data to external disk
5) load cards into editorial
6) after all the shots have been confirmed copied & are OK (checking with the notes you got from set) send the cards back to the camera to be reused

that way, it should be possible to work with 4-8 cards per camera i suppose.
Did i miss something or does that sound like a doable plan?

p.s.
girls & guys, there are different speeds of cardreaders as well, lets add them to the discussion. the fastest we have come along so far was the sandisk reader, much faster than anything we have seen integrated in notebooks.

Do you one better, record to cf, copy to laptop, burn to external Blu-Ray data drive which can hold > 30GB. If you use the reWritable media, you don't have to wait for multiple cf loads to start burning.
Now that is permanent storage.
Can still play back your rushes directly off of the optical. If this were anything but RED that wouldn't work.

Blu Ray burners are down to 600.00 USD, dual layer disks can be found for about 20.00 each. Takes more time, but you can wait till you have several loads of cf data before burning.

You could also burn documents and other production related files as well.

Sorry to be a fly in the ointment, but with new high capacity Solid State HDs coming out, I don't see much future for CF when comparing price, storage and performance. Seagate plans on 160GB initially with transfer rates comparable to current SATA II drives. I hope RED adopts SSHD as a replacement for standard drives when they become widely available.

[David Battistella]

1) shoot

2) swap cards

3) a couple of times during the day someone picks up the cards

4) if you're in a remote area, copy the cards onto a portable raid system in a truck

5) send the cards to editorial

6) ingest the cards into your system (preferably making a backup on tape or whatever you're using)

7) after all the shots have been confirmed copied & are OK (checking with the notes you got from set) send the cards back to set to be reused

You can skip step 7 if you don't want to reuse the cards... around 15 (4 GB) cards a day / per camera for this workflow is reasonable.

Rob,

I am not sure you are considering (remote) documentary production in this workflow.

David

[Craig Schober]

Cheers for that Wigby!

A thought on workflow issues though.

Anyone know of a simple way to set-up a macro to carry out Laguun's suggestion?

ie insert cf card into laptop/reader, launch macro, and the card is copied to the internal and external drive with effectively one mouse-click. (maybe including data verification)

Hopefully this would make life easier for all concerned...

JohnF

someone introduced this product back a few weeks ago to the forum:

http://www.eastgear.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=17_101&products_id=833

it's the simplest backup solution for cf cards because it doesn't require a laptop, external drives or even ac power. it even does a bit by bit verification after copies are made. only downside is that you're removing actual footage viewing/verification from the loop but that can be a plus for shoots on a tight timeline.

[laguun]

Do you one better, record to cf, copy to laptop, burn to external Blu-Ray data drive which can hold > 30GB. Now that is permanent storage.
Can still play back your rushes directly off of the optical. If this were anything but RED that wouldn't work.

Optical storage is good, however, there is no blueray writer/reader on the market i would aware of, which has enough bandwidth: red should need ~27.x Mbyte/sec.

Also, a 1 TB or 500 GB disk will store several hours of footage, needs less space and can be backed up in one step. Optical media, as of yet, will store less than 30 minutes, and will require workforce to be backed up. We will probably go with 4 * 1 TB disk in seperate casings for a shot. One on the set, backing up the notebook, One at the hotel, to back up the days work, in the safe, backing up the backup, and one wandering between post and set.

Anyhow, i see blueray as the media for hot environments, where discs can become problematic.

[donatello b]

1) shoot

2) swap cards

3) a couple of times during the day someone picks up the cards

4) if you're in a remote area, copy the cards onto a portable raid system in a truck

5) send the cards to editorial

6) ingest the cards into your system (preferably making a backup on tape or whatever you're using)

7) after all the shots have been confirmed copied & are OK (checking with the notes you got from set) send the cards back to set to be reused

You can skip step 7 if you don't want to reuse the cards... around 15 (4 GB) cards a day / per camera for this workflow is reasonable.

excellent Rob ...
IMO if one is going to reuse the CF cards - they should not be reused the same day ... perhaps the next day or the 2nd day after - that gives editorial plenty of time to look at the shots and if they find something "odd" they can check the CF card ( not a copy) ... no matter what your budget having a 2-3 day supply of CF cards is well worth your $$$$ - for Red owners you charge a daily fee for the cards which makes it affordable to the Producer to have X # of cards available on set ... (documentary's - you wouldn't be using CF's cards .. perhaps when they hit 32/64gigs or if you are shooting 2k raw )

[laguun]

Rob,

I am not sure you are considering (remote) documentary production in this workflow.

David
for documentary, disc would be the recommended workflow.

[Harmonica]

AFAIK, the FLASH module attaches to the camera via SATA. So if someone loses the side-mount SATA interface by installing the RAW port, would it be possible to attach the FLASH module to the other SATA connector -- where we attach RED DRIVES? Perhaps some form of adapter/mounting sled could facilitate this, or even a FLASH module that can be mounted like a RED DRIVE?

That's an excellent idea, Jeff! I couldn't find any responses to this post. How about it Red team?

[G.A. Kokes]

Does anyone know how many times one can install and remove a CF Card, before its conductors fail?

we bought an 8GB Card for our Nikon D2Xs and have never had to remove it. we just dump the data from the camera into a hard drive. It holds over 400 RAW photos per card!

My concern is that a CF card may perhaps not be as rugged as a P2, which I understand have substantial engineering built into their ruggedness (Thats what I am told). Our CF card looks like it's conductors might strip over time.

Does anyone have any experience with this?

Thanks,
G

[Greg M]

Does anyone know how many times one can install and remove a CF Card, before its conductors fail?

we bought an 8GB Card for our Nikon D2Xs and have never had to remove it. we just dump the data from the camera into a hard drive. It holds over 400 RAW photos per card!

My concern is that a CF card may perhaps not be as rugged as a P2, which I understand have substantial engineering built into their ruggedness (Thats what I am told). Our CF card looks like it's conductors might strip over time.

Does anyone have any experience with this?

Thanks,
G

I pull the CF card in/out of my Canon DSLR 10X per day and have been doing it for 2+ years on my latest camera and never have any issues.

[Rob Lohman]

I am not sure you are considering (remote) documentary production in this workflow.

This was the workflow used on a remote location shoot.

The cards came back to set a couple of days later (usually not the next day, never on the same day).

We've got good experience with some firewire 800 card readers for speed (don't ask me which brand or type, I don't remember and don't have one here)

[MikeHedge]

Jim... thank you. Team RED, thank you... will the 8GB Extreme IV work just as well as the Ducati SanDisk's? Are you finding a huge benefit in using the faster cards? Adorama has the 8GB Extreme IV (40MB/s) CF cards on sale for $155 http://www.adorama.com/IDSCF8GE4.html

PS what is the approx down time between card switches to get the RED back up and shooting again (timelapse)? if I'm in the middle of shooting timelapse... and the card becomes full, what happens when I get the new card in? do I need to re access the menu again? or is there a way to pause while I switch CF cards then continue capturing?? I would want to touch the camera as little as possible as to not bump the camera changing the framing of the timelapse...

mike

[Zach Hilton]

I can honestly say after months of recording 4k onto CF, i wouldn't know what to do without it. I can for sure see the need of some long form recording onto drives (had to today), but Honestly, 98% of the last 100 or so hours ive shot on RED.... has all been on compact flash. Its just so secure, solid and quick.

Man...100 or so hours shot on RED. Boy am I jealous. Seriously though, CF is a dream come true for the RED. I can't wait to get my hands on mine.

[Joe Carney]

Optical storage is good, however, there is no blueray writer/reader on the market i would aware of, which has enough bandwidth: red should need ~27.x Mbyte/sec.

Also, a 1 TB or 500 GB disk will store several hours of footage, needs less space and can be backed up in one step. Optical media, as of yet, will store less than 30 minutes, and will require workforce to be backed up. We will probably go with 4 * 1 TB disk in seperate casings for a shot. One on the set, backing up the notebook, One at the hotel, to back up the days work, in the safe, backing up the backup, and one wandering between post and set.

Anyhow, i see blueray as the media for hot environments, where discs can become problematic.

Maybe, I thought BLU RAy supported up to 30MB play back. I'll have to check.
If nothing else, a relatively cheap way to permanently archive. You could still keep the data on the laptop for playback.

[Antoine Fabi]

Jim, Rob,

Is it possible in a near future to buy a multiple RED CF cards module as an expansion option ?

Is it technically feasible ?

Antoine

Rob,

let me insist again, is it possible ?

That would be awesome.
...in a lot of situations where we "wait" for "the" good take.

[Dominic Jones]

Surely unless you're planning on recording directly to the Bluray disc it's bandwidth is irrelevant? It just means that the transfer won't be realtime, that's all - once it's off the camera it's just data...

After my experiences with DVD-R's, there's no way on god's green earth you'll ever find me backing up anything even remotely important onto optical media though! Is there some reason people think Bluray will be more robust than DVD-R's are/were?

[Joe Carney]

Surely unless you're planning on recording directly to the Bluray disc it's bandwidth is irrelevant? It just means that the transfer won't be realtime, that's all - once it's off the camera it's just data...

After my experiences with DVD-R's, there's no way on god's green earth you'll ever find me backing up anything even remotely important onto optical media though! Is there some reason people think Bluray will be more robust than DVD-R's are/were?


I use Nero, and always have data validation turned on. Pretty much insures the disc is good. For DVD I prefer DVD+R, they've always been considered more reliable than -R.

[Craig Schober]

Is there some reason people think Bluray will be more robust than DVD-R's are/were?

i assume it's more about the cost per gb and the fact that people seem spooked by hard drives in general. i don't see a big long term reliability issue with optical media once it has burned and verified. the only problem i've found is a lot of bad blank media to sort through until you hit reliability.

[Joe Carney]

i assume it's more about the cost per gb and the fact that people seem spooked by hard drives in general. i don't see a big long term reliability issue with optical media once it has burned and verified. the only problem i've found is a lot of bad blank media to sort through until you hit reliability.

On a large set, I'd be more worried about someone walking by a powerful ElectroMagnetic field than anything else. HDs are more reliable than tape.

[Darwin]

At 4 minutes per card, that is 15 cards per hour. To use these as a film negative would be $3000 per hour. Not too cost effective for shooting a feature... It would be cool to have write-once cards that are dirt cheap! Just buy a card like a tape. Here is a link http://www.dpreview.com/news/0702/07022601sandiskwriteonceflash.asp Well if you could make them fast enough to work on Red. sounds like cool technology.

[Steve Freebairn]

On a large set, I'd be more worried about someone walking by a powerful ElectroMagnetic field than anything else. HDs are more reliable than tape.

What kind of set are you working on? I think tape and a combination of raid are the safest ways to leave the shoot. With a tape backup and a fail safe raid, you're not meant to have the data if they both get erased :) Optical could be for those sets where there are large magnets all over (since Burning discs doesn't take long or require anything special).

[Joe Carney]

What kind of set are you working on? I think tape and a combination of raid are the safest ways to leave the shoot. With a tape backup and a fail safe raid, you're not meant to have the data if they both get erased :) Optical could be for those sets where there are large magnets all over (since Burning discs doesn't take long or require anything special).

Just a wild ass thought, a SWAG if you will. Nothing serious.
hehehe.

[Thom Steinhoff]

It would be cool to have write-once cards that are dirt cheap! Just buy a card like a tape. Here is a link http://www.dpreview.com/news/0702/07022601sandiskwriteonceflash.asp Well if you could make them fast enough to work on Red. sounds like cool technology.

Love this idea!!!

RED ROM! RED ROM! RED ROM!!!(said in a demonic children's voice)


http://www.sandisk.com/OEM/ProductCatalog(1325)-SanDisk_3DOTP_SD_ROM_Cards.aspx
Cheap, write once, read many, last for 100 years. This technology sounds like the future to me.

If you want to re-use, use CF cards. If you want to shoot it like a negative, shoot to a Red-ROM and store it away.

This would be great!!! Please let it be fast enough!!!

[Dominic Jones]

It wasn't so much the data getting on there in the first place (I do the exact same thing as you, at least with data I need to know is good - not so much for little odds'n'sods), but the ridiculous fragility of DVD-R (not too familiar with +R's - over here they're less universally compatible, not sure if that's true everywhere - but they'd have to be a hell of a lot better for me to trust them as camera masters, dupes or no)..

Whatever works for each person, of course, but I use the best quality media I can find and I still have constant problems with DVD-Rs giving up the ghost after a while in storage and a few plays - on one section or another if not the whole disc. I'll go with dual RAID-1 dupes on HDD for the time being, but solid state will definitely be the way of the future in my world...

Just my 0.02!

[JohnF]

Dominic I'll take your 0.02 and raise you another 0.02!

Blue-ray is an extremely sensitive medium, as far as the most recent reports go.
Far more sensitive to scratches and other damage even than DVD-R's (which are bad enough) not to mention that burnable disks are extremely error prone due to manufacturing defects/cost cutting.

Until we know that solid-state is a good long term storage medium I'll be sticking to HDD's and LTO/AIT type magnetic tapes. Optical medium is below all of those in my book unless it is properly glass mastered disks (far more costly).

As mentioned though write-once cards would be brilliant solution, SanDisk is suggesting a 100+ year lifetime, very interesting indeed...

JohnF

[Zack Birlew]

Shoot, I know that flash-based storage would be the next logical step after discs. I'm already preparing a bunch of my student shorts to be transferred to my Sony PSP on a 4gb memory stick. How great would that be to just bring that out and say "Here, which one would you like to see first?".:w00t:

[Rob Lohman]

Rob,

let me insist again, is it possible ?

That would be awesome.
...in a lot of situations where we "wait" for "the" good take.

Anythings possible.... :turned:

[Brian Kaz]

Blue-ray is an extremely sensitive medium, as far as the most recent reports go.
Far more sensitive to scratches and other damage even than DVD-R's
Actually, most BD discs are hard coated (Durabis and the like) and resist scratches far better than any other optical disc. Especially the TDKs.


I'm already preparing a bunch of my student shorts to be transferred to my Sony PSP on a 4gb memory stick. How great would that be to just bring that out and say "Here, which one would you like to see first?"
I've been doing this for over a year now. :)

[Steven Caesare]

Maybe, I thought BLU RAy supported up to 30MB play back. I'll have to check.
If nothing else, a relatively cheap way to permanently archive. You could still keep the data on the laptop for playback.

BR is 54 MBit
HD DVD is 36MBit

Red is 27MByte

-Steve

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Actually BluRay video spec is only 39Mbit max, even though the current generation of drives can do 54Mbit for data.

[jbeale]

> ...Red is 27MByte...

...as originally spec'd. I gather they have moved to a variable bitrate now, based on Jim's post here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=72735&postcount=7 saying that a Transcend 266x CF card can handle the data rate on simple scenes but not complex ones.

If 1x = 150 KByte/sec then 266x = 38.96 Mbyte/sec but I don't know whether "266x" means sustained write speed, maximum burst read speed, or something else.

I haven't been following closely but AFAIK "variable bitrate" has not often been used in digital cameras, among other things because tape drives are normally fixed-bitrate devices. So I guess Red is really taking advantage of their tape-free system with that design decision.

I don't know how "variable" the bitrate is, but it also means you will not be able to predict exactly how much runtime you'll get from a given memory device. For example, high-detail wide nature shots with deep focus will take more storage space than a typical dialogue scene with the background OOF.

[Joe Carney]

Actually BluRay video spec is only 39Mbit max, even though the current generation of drives can do 54Mbit for data.

Thanks I get my bits and bytes mixed up sometimes.

[Steven Caesare]

Actually BluRay video spec is only 39Mbit max, even though the current generation of drives can do 54Mbit for data.

Right. And the context of this discussion (using Blu Ray discs to store Redcode data instead of CF cards), it's the 54Mbit rating that would apply.

It's about 4X too slow.

-Steve

[tomcassetta]

Honestly, I can't figure out why anyone would want to backup a camera master to any optical format. Imagine this: It took years for Sony and Philips to develop manufacturing standards for CDs (ever notice your older discs developing pin-holes?). Imagine if that were your camera master...

Anyway, all hard drives fail at some point or another.

I guess it all comes down to what your insurance company will back, eh?

Cheers!

[Zach Nelson]

I should know the answer to this but I don't ...

The difference between "CF" and SD cards? Would SD cards be considered compact flash?

If so, Toshiba has 32G cards coming out:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/22/toshiba-announces-32gb-16gb-sdhc-cards/

[Hrvoje Simic]

Multiple CF slots would be a really helpful. At least dual.
I hope you guys are considering this as a future option.

[Zach Nelson]

Answered my own question .. scroll down half way for differences between CF and SD/SDHC

http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digital/compact_flash_memory_cards.html