BIRACY.COM (Crowdfunded Filmmaking)

[NormLi]

Hey everyone,

I recently shot this commercial for BIRACY.COM (Shot on my RED and RPP's). I believe in the project and think it's a great idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTyqTyHt-bQ

If you want to MAKE MONEY by signing up and refering your friends who refer their friends, who refer their friends....(you get the picture), you can make quite a bit money EXPONENTIALLY.

Not only do you make money (32% of total gross memberships goes to the referral program), you you also are helping to raise funds for feature films to be made and shown directly in theaters, in which you have a vote in how it's made.

I just signed up myself and I believe in the project, and I want to make money :) Hope you sign up too.

Sign up now by clicking on (and read over the website to understand how it all works):

http://www.biracy.com/affiliate/NORMLI

Sign up, spread the word, make money!

Thanks,

Norm


P.S> If you have any questions on the project, let me know.

[Jonas Rejman]

just read the Q&A...

what a nice packaged ponzi-scheme
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

I bet 5$ that no film will ever be made.

Nice 8% guaranteed profit for the management - 40.000,-
Lets say it costs 10K to program this crapsite... and noone will even bother to investigate, as some of the money will float back.

Smart guys!

[Tim Martin]

Funny, we just launched something similar. Ours is project specific and more of an entertainment / education offering. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts - you can find it at ExperienceFandom.com

I think the model of crowd sourcing for filmmaking is going to be a big trend in 2010.

It would be cool to get feedback on the pros and cons of the two different models

Cheers,

Tim

[Michael Schrengohst]

Biracy rhymes with Piracy....

[DRappazzo]

I find these kids of things very interesting. At the same time I don't think I have ever seen an example of one that actually got a film made, let alone released into theaters.

I do hope for the sake of anyone who tries to get a film financed this way, that it is legit and that they get something made. But I have to admit I have my doubts about the legitimacy of the whole thing.

I do think that in the future we will see more of the "micro" financing type of thing. I would love to know if anyone has successfully produced a film this way.

And if you really want to just give away some of your money so I can make a film, send me a pm.:smiley:

[MikeHedge]

yay they launched the site finally. neat!

[Tim Martin]

I do hope for the sake of anyone who tries to get a film financed this way, that it is legit and that they get something made. But I have to admit I have my doubts about the legitimacy of the whole thing.

I completely agree with you. I think that the idea of offering experiential entertainment is interesting, but a huge challenge. We've been aware that we will be fighting the scam / legitimacy all the way.

I also think that you can't be depending on this to finance a film. We see it as a business model to offer film fans a new offering. We are also looking at launching similar models with the music industry - Making of a rock tour, recording of an album, etc.

[NormLi]

Biracy rhymes with Piracy....

That was on purpose by the way. The purpose of this program is to turn the pirate into a buyer. Hence, "Biracy". If they help to promote a film that they helped finance, even if it's a $25 membership, then they will help to promote it everywhere to make money by referring their networks, etc. If the film makes money in the theaters, then they make a % of sales as well. It's all on the website.

At any rate, even if the person who signs up for a membership doesn't give a damn about a movie being made, they would probably be more interested in making $ by referring their friends, family, networks, etc so that they get % from each membership signed up. They also get a % of the people that signed up under the first tier of people that he referred and so on.

In your "profile page" after you sign up, there's a page that shows how many people signed up in total, how many signed up from your referrals, and from other referrals, and there's also an account balance in $ to show how much money you will be making. I have a friend who already made $200 today.

I only signed up because I believe in it and the more you promote, the better the chances are of making some $.

I'm not the creator of this site promoting it to make money. I'm just a new member and an active member of the RED, 35mm, indie filmmaking community as a Cinematographer.

Norm

[abook]

just read the Q&A...

what a nice packaged ponti-scheme
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=ponti+scheme&go=Gon

I bet 5$ that no film will ever be made.

Nice 8% guaranteed profit for the management - 40.000,-
Lets say it costs 10K to program this crapsite... and noone will even bother to investigate, as some of the money will float back.

Smart guys!

Hey guys, I had a post on this site before which was taken down for the violence in the replies. We're trying to develop a funding structure based on word of mouth marketing, and we have opened our doors and are already populating. It's a beta for our SoKap system, which utilizes the same referral program to help fund films for independent filmmakers at any genre, or budget level without having to mess with pre-sales from distributors. Which by the way are getting harder and harder to actually get.
I never understand the out right disgust people have over something they don't understand. Please do some research and see if you want to get involved. www.biracy.com/tour
We have an open door policy within the sites tour as well as well as a contact us page.
Here is my email if you have anything further: scooter@virmana-pictures.com

It's 3 years in the making, and a 5 minute look never justifies this kind of child like behaviour. You are independent filmmakers, do some research into something that could help you in the future. If you refer someone to the project to help FUND your feature, why shouldn't you get a piece of it?

Scooter Corkle
Vancouver, BC
Media Director
The Biracy Project

[Tim Martin]

Hey Scooter,

Love the idea. What ways are people going to be able to interact with the filmmaking through out the process? As the project reaches critical mass how will the interaction influence the filmmakers? Have you looked at sellaband.com It's a similar model for the music industry.

[abook]

Hey Tim, we have looked at Sellaband, it's a cool site and uses a lot of similar principles. Sellaband's business structure, especially in the token of "ownership", is extremely similar to that of the Biracy Project.

Well the Biracy Project is the beta, so we've put the power into the fans hands. Our genre is Science Fiction, we know that, but we are going to whiddle down all the submittions we get to about 4-5 options we can viably do for the budget we have allocated (from the fans) and then give those choices to the members to be voted on (including the script).

It's not only an experiment in crowdfunding, but also crowdsourcing. The story, script, pre-production, production, VFX choices, storyboard idea, you name it - we give it to the crowd to be voted upon or participated in. We want to have thousands of different decisions laid out for those who engaged in the Biracy Project to choose from. It's like a 20 million dollar choose your own adventure.

Will it work, we'll see, but we are going to be curating the process as it goes along to help it get there. It's an experiment and we're really excited about it! Obviously major plot points and key decisions will be made by the Biracy internal group but we want the movie to belong to the fans!

The filmmakers will be dictated by the crowd for the most part, so as writers and producers of the film - the fans, let the creative production team know what they want.

Thanks for the question,

Scooter Corkle
Vancouver, BC
Media Director
the Biracy Project

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Is it a Pyramid scheme masquerading as a film studio or a film studio funded by a pyramid scheme? Does it matter?

The referral network system is definitely an effective one. MIT just used it to with the DARPA balloon challenge. Adding referral incentives definitely multiplies involvement and advertising--but like any referral/pyramid system it's incredibly difficult to actually find enough human beings on earth for anyone but a small fraction at the top to actually make back their money and then some.

I predict a lot of initial involvement followed by a disengagement and backlash as people find it increasingly difficult to find people to recruit. Hopefully it won't sour people to crowd funding in general.

[Alex Kornreich]

This is a full fledged pyramid scheme, plain and simple. Only the people at the very top make any money. It's disguised as a way to finance movies in order to entice people to buy in. That's how pyramid schemes work, and if you can't see through this, then you all need your heads checked.

Can someone PLEASE explain how they are OK with 8% going to "administration," and any money made off the movie doesn't go to the community as cash, but rather as "rewards points"?????



Hey everyone,

I recently shot this commercial for BIRACY.COM (Shot on my RED and RPP's). I believe in the project and think it's a great idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTyqTyHt-bQ

If you want to MAKE MONEY by signing up and refering your friends who refer their friends, who refer their friends....(you get the picture), you can make quite a bit money EXPONENTIALLY.

Not only do you make money (32% of total gross memberships goes to the referral program), you you also are helping to raise funds for feature films to be made and shown directly in theaters, in which you have a vote in how it's made.

I just signed up myself and I believe in the project, and I want to make money :) Hope you sign up too.

Sign up now by clicking on (and read over the website to understand how it all works):

http://www.biracy.com/affiliate/NORMLI

Sign up, spread the word, make money!

Thanks,

Norm


P.S> If you have any questions on the project, let me know.


I'm not the creator of this site promoting it to make money. I'm just a new member and an active member of the RED, 35mm, indie filmmaking community as a Cinematographer.

Norm

This is you not promoting this site to make money? Then why did you list your referral link? Why did you literally say, "Sign up, spread the word, make money!" It sounds like you're an employee.

I thought spam wasn't allowed on this forum?

And lastly, you're promoting having your friends and family sign up as referrals. So you think it's OK to profit off of friends and family?

[Alex Kornreich]

BTW, I think crowdfunding is a really intriguing idea. Just not when it's run as a pyramid scheme and by a bunch of con-artists...

[Danish P.V.]

Besides the whole law thing the other issue (when the budget is raised at all) is a lack of focus and because of that, extremely long production times for a product quite nobody cares for. "A swarm of angels" comes into my mind - how many years did it take so far? And now (for months) they`re "making a transformation" : http://aswarmofangels.com
Such things won`t even work with well known people at the top like Stephen King, as far as I remember he once tried to sell a book chapter by chapter as long as enough people pay for it...

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Can someone PLEASE explain how they are OK with 8% going to "administration," and any money made off the movie doesn't go to the community as cash, but rather as "rewards points"?????

Technically it's an MLM operation (Multi Level Marketing). Think "Avon calling". When you join you have lost 100% of your money. You're essentially purchasing into a game. The rules of the game in this case award actual monetary rewards for your activities. I suspect if they returned cash for box-office receipts then the film itself would be an investment and subject to stringent regulation. In order to remain legal they have to essentially burn your membership money 100% on goods and service and then pay out from the company's revenues for your referral network independent of your membership.

So while I'm sure they're legally on solid ground just like Avon I suspect many people won't realize that the pyramid aspect is impossible to 'win' but will jump in anyway in order to 'make money' not in order to fund independent films. I would feel very uneasy accepting investments knowing most of my investors don't actually understand that their money is definitely gone. If people understand that they're just playing a game that they will almost certainly lose (like a slot machine) then all is well. But in order just to make your $25 back you have to recruit two people. Each of them have to recruit two people. And each of them have to recruit 2 people. That's 14 people just to pay off one producer. Or you have to recruit 7 people yourself. It doesn't take very long to completely exhaust the entire population of the planet.

[Alex Kornreich]

So while I'm sure they're legally on solid ground just like Avon I suspect many people won't realize that the pyramid aspect is impossible to 'win' but will jump in anyway in order to 'make money' not in order to fund independent films. I would feel very uneasy accepting investments knowing most of my investors don't actually understand that their money is definitely gone. If people understand that they're just playing a game that they will almost certainly lose (like a slot machine) then all is well. But in order just to make your $25 back you have to recruit two people. Each of them have to recruit two people. And each of them have to recruit 2 people. That's 14 people just to pay off one producer. Or you have to recruit 7 people yourself. It doesn't take very long to completely exhaust the entire population of the planet.

...which is why MLMs (basically the legal version of a pyramid scheme) collapse quickly, and only people at the top make any money.

Read the "Q+A" section on their website for a good laugh. Especially where they address whether they're an MLM or pyramid scheme. As usual, no solid facts, just fluff.

I must say it's a spiffy website. The name "Biracy" kinda sounds like a disease though...

[NormLi]

This is a full fledged pyramid scheme, plain and simple. Only the people at the very top make any money. It's disguised as a way to finance movies in order to entice people to buy in. That's how pyramid schemes work, and if you can't see through this, then you all need your heads checked.

Can someone PLEASE explain how they are OK with 8% going to "administration," and any money made off the movie doesn't go to the community as cash, but rather as "rewards points"?????






This is you not promoting this site to make money? Then why did you list your referral link? Why did you literally say, "Sign up, spread the word, make money!" It sounds like you're an employee.



I thought spam wasn't allowed on this forum?

And lastly, you're promoting having your friends and family sign up as referrals. So you think it's OK to profit off of friends and family?


Don't make assumptions...I am NOT an employee. I am trying to spread the word about this project as like everyone else, I'm in it to try to make some extra income as well as to help promote making a film. I spent some $ for a membership and since I believe in the project and think it can go somewhere, then of course I will sound positive ("employee-like?") about what I am saying. What better place to promote than technology/filmmaker forums where many of us are in the same boat. If everyone has a mindset where it won't go anywhere, it won't. If there are people who believe in it and join and promote it, then the financing of a first feature is more probable. Hopefully it keeps going and more and more films are developed, shot, and distributed.

If it's spam, then by all means, please delete this thread. I've been a long time contributor of the RED community and I'm not some fly-by-night stranger who's posting for the first time...

You took my comment too literally. You can have friends, family, co-workers, online community and tech forums, strangers, acquaintances, ex-lovers, pets, aliens...whatever. I didn't mean for it to be just friends and family. That would be just plain ol' silly!

[DCC Erickson]

Why would any single writer or director make a film this way? Why would someone in charge of this nonsense ever make a movie when they can just reel in "investors" until the well runs dry? What kind of good movie ever got made by committee?

And how does Norm Li's comment "... I am trying to spread the word about this project as like everyone else, I'm in it to try to make some extra income as well as to help promote making a film...." sound like someone even remotely interested in making a film? "Some extra income"? You're better off getting a part-time job at Burger King.

Norm, your website doesn't load, but your vimeo reel looks nice. It doesn't cost that much to make a decent small-budget movie (not to beat a horse but - Paranormal Activity), just go make a freakin' movie.

[Petri Teittinen]

Probably the best proof of this being a Ponzi-scheme is someone ("crowdfunding_fan") registering on the forum almost immediately to defend the scheme - anonymously, of course.

[Irmeli R]

eew! i'd rather deal with a few dorks at a studio who tell me where to shoot, who to cast and what to change in a scene etc than with a whole crowd of dorks. :D

one reason i go and see a movie is i want to see the director's 'vision' of the script.

[Rick Presas]

sounds pyramid.

[DRappazzo]

DR APPAZZO, crowdfunding has been a success. Have you checked out the film THE AGE OF STUPID from the UK?

No I have not been aware of that film, but now that I am I will surely take a look. Thanks for the heads up.

Please be aware that I am not making judgements of anyones ideas or sites that offer different routes to financing, I am merely suggesting that people be careful.

In my expereince, things that seem to good to be true usually are.

Best of luck to everyone involved, I truly do wish anyone who tries to make any film the best of luck and the greatest of success.

[Dexter Gregoire]

Hi Norm,

Just a thought, I own an ActionCam and live in your area.

I like taking walks in the park or along the beach with the ActionCam, just for the fun of it. It doesn't matter. PM me next time you need to take a walk, even if it's just to have a steady option. I would be glad to come.

Dexter

[david geertz]

Hello,

I did a search this morning on our company and found a lot of discussion going on here; however, I am a bit taken aback by the amount of people who are blatantly calling us a ponzi scheme or a pyramid. If you actually take the time to read the site you will see that it is actually structured as a coop that also allows members to earn sales commissions (if they so choose) for signing up members. Perhaps most of you here are not familiar with how sales agents fund films that you work on in Hollywood or other parts of the world but I can assure you that our model is simply a micro version of this, and that the fans themselves become the studio by preselling the contracts.

In addition to this we are offering a game like scenario that allows the fans to be actively involved in the production by voting on scenarios put forward by the department heads. Let's use the DP as an example. Perhaps, during previs, the DP asks the crowd to help him choose his film stock by showing 2 examples of how film stocks can be exposed and altered cinematically. The DP is OK with either option as he/she has chosen the options. The crowd votes and we go in the direction of a majority. Everyone who votes...increases their ownership in the film as we assign them points for participation. Those who vote - get the gravy! These points are redeemed by box office performance, and NO you cannot pay cash out of the box office, as that is a violation of the SEC. What you can do with these points is redeem them for swag, buying other film memberships that will be listed on the site that are being developed by other filmmakers, or you can donate the points to the charities that we will be supporting.

People who work hard and hustle can make some good money on this project; however, its not necessary to sell memberships to have fun on this project.

As for the Pyramid effect...do your homework. Take another look. I thought DP's were mathematical people.

If anyone has any direct questions for me please feel free to reach me at dgeertz@biracy.com

Thanks for your time.

David Geertz
Founder + CEO
The Biracy Project
www.biracy.com

[Gavin Greenwalt]

We are mathematical people. That's why it's painfully obvious that while I like the concept in general I also know that a Pyramid referral system is impossible to sustain. Every pyramid has a base. Your website is sound except for the part about "make money". People you will not make money off this system unless you're in the overwhelming minority. Treat it like gambling. The reason it isn't a pyramid scheme on the macroscale is because unlike the microscale you don't get beyond 2-3 tiers of financing. In order to even fund a small film--let's say $50k you'll need: $50k/$18 = ~2,700 members. Once you need that many people then you're quickly going to need to tap >3 tiers and that's when pyramid investments fall apart.

It's a fun way to raise money and I'm sure a number of people will make some beer money on the side. But the overwhelming majority will not get their money back. As long as people are spending their money for entertainment and to support independent cinema then be my guest. Just know that it's all for fun and don't expect to get back a return.

[Darren Orange]

Hey Scooter...or Abook or whoever you are, this is a real name forum, I posted last time, but get that updated. I Respect what your doing but your not setting yourself up to be respected here until your fix your name. David has it right..... cheers

[Billy Barber]

It's tough enough having one client looking over your shoulder while you're trying to be creative. I can't imagine what it's like with thousands.

[david geertz]

The Biracy Project as it is clearly stated within all the videos and documentation is only the beta and first film of this crowdfunding platform. You are right in saying that there is a ceiling on each film and that the potential to earn money will run out as the cap on each budget is met. That being said, our policy is that anyone who cannot or does not reach their 3rd level will be granted another film on the site at no charge and a position closer to the beginning of the raise. This is a way of ensuring that our members are getting fair value for their money and being given ample opportunity to earn a commission if they so choose.

I think you may be confusing this system with a front end loaded MLM scheme where you need to buy a bunch of credits and then sell them to your friends. This is not the case. Our film is 25 bucks of which, 15 goes to the film and is held in escrow until all funds are met. If for any reason the film budget is not met, the member gets this portion back and is entitled to keep any referral fees that they have earned which amounts in total to 32% of the membership. We take 8% and that 8% is broken down into 5% to us and 3% to transaction processors.

I'm still surprised as to why people are being so negative towards this and using terms like Pyramid. Its a coop with an affiliate marketing program attached. You don't have to sell a thing. You're a prebuying a film for 25 bucks and getting a chance to earn part of the box office revenue by being involved in an online game. Why is this so wrong to you?

Why don't you email me directly so I can have our business affairs group send you any and all details on the project? Better yet...go the site, or youtube and watch some of the videos that provide a lot of the information before making allegations that you can't defend.

without prejudice
David Geertz
Founder + CEO
The Biracy Project

[paulherrin]

I would be much more apt to go out on a limb and support something like this if there were no "make money" tactics. I mean... really? Are we all just a buncha crackjobs that can't make an honest wage doing something productive?

Financials aside, how is this not fooling the populous into believing they are involved? Any other process would compromise the film. The flaws in the pure democratic process of majority rules become evident at this point. Look at the kind of "films" the majority likes, the kind of "humor" the majority likes... etc.

I stand up and say it's not about making money.

[Darren Orange]

I stand up and say it's not about making money.

Its about sending a message!

sorry had to.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I'm still surprised as to why people are being so negative towards this and using terms like Pyramid. Its a coop with an affiliate marketing program attached. You don't have to sell a thing. You're a prebuying a film for 25 bucks and getting a chance to earn part of the box office revenue by being involved in an online game. Why is this so wrong to you?

David Geertz
Founder + CEO
The Biracy Project

It's not wrong. It's kind of a fun idea. What's wrong is that plastered in giant 80point font across the front of your page is "Make Money".

It would be like a Casino having a giant banner out front saying "Unemployed? Come make money and pay bills!" I don't have any problems with gambling I have problems with marketing a pyramid scheme as a way to "MAKE MONEY" even if it's a fun little game on the side. Even the lotto here in Washington is required to have a little disclaimer "Lotto is not a sound investment."


EDIT:
How about this for a slogan:
MAKE FILMS
EARN POINTS
BUILD AN AUDIENCE

[DCC Erickson]

...Those who vote - get the gravy! These points are redeemed by box office performance, and NO you cannot pay cash out of the box office, as that is a violation of the SEC. What you can do with these points is redeem them for swag, buying other film memberships that will be listed on the site that are being developed by other filmmakers, or you can donate the points to the charities that we will be supporting.
...

Swag? Are you kidding? T-shirts and MP3 players?

And since when do investors make good creative decisions? And since when is a director able to say "either of these film stocks is fine with me" and let some mob choose based on website jpg samples?

I'm not saying this scheme is manipulative or dishonest. It just sounds like a bad idea. I would pay money to see whatever "film" comes out of this malarky just to witness a "film by committee". You know what? This is how they make a bad movie in Hollywood.

[david geertz]

This has been a good exercise for me as the CEO of the project. I came onto this site as there was some real negative language about the process and now I think we have all come to an agreement that its not the process for you. I understand why creative types would shy away from this process as it does offer up some of the process in a vote to the crowd. Keep in mind that all votes, polls and submissions of crowdsourced applications are decided by the department heads first.

The other key thing to remember here is that this is about the fans participating in a "social experiment in crowdfunded filmmaking" We hope that the film we deliver is daring, innovative and compelling. I guess we'll see....

Also keep in mind that no one is claiming that you can quit your day job by joining Biracy. That being said...if you buy a membership for 25 bucks and tell 3 friends, by the time your 3 levels are complete you might have made enough money to pay your cable bill, or take friends out for a beer. Its affiliate money and its somewhat passive. Its like putting your friends film banner on your blog and having an Amazon affiliate account.

Lastly to Paul Herrin: If its not about making money, how do you expect to get paid for your time? I don't need you to come out and donate your gear and time Paul. Its this attitude that brings the term "starving artist" to the center stage and its the reason why over the last 100 years money people have controlled the film business. They know that you're just an artist and you'll work for nothing. We built this for that reason.

I encourage all of you to check out the videos on the homepage that are there now. By the way...What do you think of Norm Li's video he shot for us? That was a long day....

here's the link to the progress page. www.biracy.com/progress

thanks for all your feedback - now go buy a membership!

David Geertz
Founder + CEO
The Biracy Project
www.biracy.com

[paulherrin]

wow, sweet - thanks, david, for the shoutout!

haha, I was just thinkin - I kinda felt bad for raggin on your project like that - even if it is essentially a scam (or personally distasteful), you've put a lot of personal effort into it. so i apologize for being impatient.

I simply meant to suggest that our motivation is not driven by this complex to "make money." As if then we could finally be successful and content. Neither do I have a "starving artist" complex. I don't mean to imply that the currency trade be abandoned. There are other ways to fund a film that don't involve the big studios. You see, in the mart of competitive commerce...

I just don't know, Dave, this whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Somewhere between the majority rule and the financial parade. I wish you the best if you truly are sincere. What would interest someone like me is... do the change to points instead of the "make money" slogan. It might be kinda cool to earn cheap little trinkets, but I don't want to feel like I'm part of a scheme in any way - and at this point I would. Also, the false implications of involvement are troublesome on two fronts. Either one is not really involved, or they really do make all the big decisions in an appeal to the majority and you've got a junk film that doesn't work because the majority knows nothing about how to make a movie. I would be much more inclined to participate if these parameters were sorted out. I'm not saying you have to just for me - I'm giving you constructive criticism. It's these aspects that simply scream "pyramid", "con", "sheme" etc. - obviously not only to me. Addressing the issue on your site makes it even worse.

[Rick Presas]

If you want to "crowd fund" a film...

Make a movie with NO budget. Make it GOOD (read Rebel Without a Crew for details and inspiration)

Get it on the local festival circuit.

Call univestities, talk to the office of student activities. See if you can arrange a screening.

Sell DVDs. Whore them out everywhere.

Use the profit to make your REAL movie.

Don't put the fate of your movies funding in the hands of kids who won't pay $.99 for an mp3.


If it doesnt involve your blood, sweat, and tears, and sounds too good to be true...

IT IS.

- $.02

[Gavin Greenwalt]

David you brought up the next question I was going to ask. Does Biracy have a mission statement on how it's going to crew its films?

Often the only way to make a $40k film is to not pay anyone.

Also the escrow is a good system and could be more clearly noted on the website. But if you don't reach your trigger point to feasibily execute the film... and you return everything except for the pyramid money... aren't you just left with a pyramid scheme? The members get no T-Shirt, No DVD, No say in how a movie is made they just are out $9 in a pyramid scheme. One more reason to throw out the cash referral system.

[david geertz]

Gavin,

That's a great question about our escrow system. All funds are held until a minimum is met. This minimum is 500K, and at this point something will be produced. If after one year we do not reach 500K we will refund 60% of your membership and you are entitled to keep your referrals. We're comfortable with this, and the people who join our site know that that is a small risk to be a part of in the event that this site does not take off. Our goal is to reach 1,000,000 fans so that we have enough revenue to build a film using cast and crew under the collective agreement with the union people who have worked on shows with us in the past.

Rick Presas,

Your comments are duly noted. Good luck with your films. When all the people who put time for free into your film come a knockin' and ask for 2 weeks of your time for free, I hope your prepared to reciprocate the offer. If 30 people help you...aren't you obliged to help 30 people? Have fun with your mortgage payments. Unless of course, you don't intend on helping them. This of course would make you a user and a taker...or even worse...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

By the way, if you read the fine print on Rodriguez you will discover that only the trailer was made for the film and that he needed 2M+ from a studio to actually make the picture of which they made a lot of decisions regarding the creative. He also made next to no revenue from the box office from this film.

[david geertz]

Biracy guy explains his funny money (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyRfWBAr_9k)

Real money goes in ... what comes out?

I like the idea of different models. This is not one I'm willing to risk money on. The "Kaps" are worth whatever Biracy dude decides they are worth, at his whim.

Sounds like a breeding ground for a dictatorship...


Joe,

We are giving 75% of the film's revenue back to the members. The cast, crew and web team will hold onto the other 25%. That is clearly defined in the terms of use on the site. What you receive is based on your participation, and how you interact with the site. we've even gone so far as to build our KRILL system (the points you earn that generate your KAPS) based on an hourly labor based system. For example: If you post a vote on the site to choose the best trucker hat from a series of 4 hats that the costume designer likes you get points based on that time you spent voting. We based our labor system on a wage of $60/hr. If we feel you should be able to read the poll and answer it in 1 minute, that would equate to $1 dollar or 100 krill points. All these points added up determine your earning potential out of the box office. We add up all the points and divide it by all of the film's revenues (including all ancillaries) and put those funds back into your account in the form of KAPS.

KAPS are a shortened version of the word SoKap, which is the engine we are building for people like you to fund your own films. People who have KAPS in their account will be able to go to JOE page on SoKap and us these points to fund your film. There is no dictatorship within the system. We take a fee of 8% for helping you raise funds for your film. The system is adaptable to allow filmmakers to adjust their sign up fees, downline levels, and payouts to fans. We take no ownership or distributions from your film unless you choose to market the film off of our website or through our fulfillment deal for DVD.

The Biracy Project is the first film being put on the engine and it is a BETA test. That's why we are listening to your comments.

Keep the comments coming....

David Geertz
Founder + CEO
The Biracy Project
www.biracy.com

[andrew rothwell]

Sounds sketchy to me,

I mean if my goal was to get 1000000 members at $25 dollars a shot i know right away for building a 10k+ website I would be getting a 2 million dollar return on 8% management fees. The only cost is maintaining the fantasy. The film flops and its all good. forgive me for being negative, i'm just thinking what id do because i'm human.

better yet, if i was in charge id have complete control of the database, id know who buys what and have all their emails. i would just set up a series of titan accounts and become the tier 6 user and no onw would know the difference. out of the 32% id make a slick percentage, say 12% because i control the top tiers. all this very small cost because i hold the information.

So it seems a bit out of the place when the first thing i see on the main page is "make money" and i reason very quickly that the management is making $5 million off of a bunch of small little people who may be exploited in a variety of ways. (of course the folks at biracy are 100% honest and would never interact in the system like that so we should trust them..... until i saw the video of the CEO registering.....)

lots of people are just people who really just want to watch a good indie film and not pay $50-$70 for two people+parking+food. you cant turn a pirate into a buyer because they dont care about making films, they care about making filmwatching cheaper.

on that note, Geertz here does make a good point. cutting the management and lawyers and their outrageous costs out of the film business is a great idea, just maybe not with the completely see through ponziness.

find a way to automate the overhead and ill go pay to watch them more often in theater because they are cheaper!

Not trying to be mean

[david geertz]

Andrew,

8% does equate into that amount and lets see.....

12 staff (and growing for scalability of SoKap) including legal, accounting, brand development, web development, marketing, media relations, and support staff.

Overhead for tradeshows, office space, equipment, servers, cloudspace, CDN space, outside legal on issues related to coops, etc etc etc.....

Do you have a problem with companies that make money for providing a service?

To answer your question on me owning a membership.....NO...I do not own one. The very first membership (to launch the site) was me registering my Mom.

Once again this word ponzi pops up. Do you even know what a ponzi scheme is? We have a capped membership, and members are prebuying a copy of the film. The use of proceeds is clearly outlined and if you wish to market the project to your friends...we pay you a commission...just like the studios do with their daisy chains within the pre-sales system.

I suggest that you look at the definition again before making these allegations that you can't defend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

If you have actually worked in the film business for any length of time you might realize that this system benefits the filmmaker and his/her fans directly. It's a little different and we know this...but hey....go make your films your way. You don't have to join our project.

Thanks

David Geertz
Founder + CEO
The Biracy Project
www.biracy.com

[Alex Kornreich]

If you have actually worked in the film business for any length of time you might realize that this system benefits the filmmaker and his/her fans directly. It's a little different and we know this...but hey....go make your films your way. You don't have to join our project.

Thanks

David Geertz
Founder + CEO
The Biracy Project
www.biracy.com

Hi David,

What's you're background in filmmaking? I searched google, imdb, etc with no luck to find out what experience you have.

If you've worked in filmmaking, especially narrative, you'd know better than anyone that a great film comes from a director's vision, and his/her collaboration with key crew, such as DP, production designer, screenwriter etc. If these people, but most importantly the director, have to listen to this "crowd" in telling them what to do, how is that ever going to be a good film? How does this benefit the filmmaker? "Too many chefs in the kitchen" comes to mind...

The most likely outcome of crowdfunded filmmaking is a movie that bombs in the box office. You get your 8% in fees and run.

The other, far less likely, outcome is a movie that makes money. Now you get 25% of the receipts (possibly in the millions), and the crowd gets 75% in fake money to buy socks with your logo on it that you buy for 10 cents from china. In other words, if the movie makes $10M, you're not giving $7.5M away, you're giving $7.5M away in products at retail value, while the cost to you is still wholesale. So of the $10M made you're probably keeping more like $9M, not $2.5M

Which part of this process would people enjoy? Making a crappy movie and losing your money, or making a great movie and losing your money while watching you get rich. It's a lose lose situation.

And BTW, if you have to put an explanation in your FAQ as to why this isn't a pyramid or MLM scheme, then as an entrepreneur deciding whether your business idea is good, that should be a big red flag...

And from a marketing standpoint, I still don't get the name Biracy. In what way is that appealing? It doesnt sound pleasant and it rhymes with Piracy, one of the most hated words in the filmmaking business.

[david geertz]

Alex,

I have no idea why you are so angry and why it is that you can't read when you obviously have a good command of written English. Everyone one of your points about our site is wrong. Go read the site. As for me I am not a film "production" person but rather a distribution, and development person. I don't own a RED camera but guys on my crew do. I'm not a director...but a guy on my crew is, and he will allow the fans to "vote" on ideas that he puts forward. How is this watering down the process? It's an interactive film Alex...relax. Nobody's telling you that you can't be an auteur of snowboard films. In fact with the fake money as you so put it in our system, fans would be able to fund your next mumblecore epic! Hey...you don't need production money to make your movies though...so don't join our site!

You're a walking contradiction. You state you're an entrepreneur, yet you are opposed to the idea of new ideas, making money and providing a way to give back to your audience.

As for the 8% you keep ramming down our throats. Ever heard of overhead, salaries, and transaction processing fees Alex?

As for the 25% of revenue Alex. Where we come from we pay unions, guilds and above the line people part of this. It's called profit sharing. Do they have profit sharing where you come from? How much money should we make Alex?

as for the Biracy word Alex. As you so put it...it sounds like piracy - NO WAY MAN! Geez, I'm pulling the site down cuz gall dang it mister...i musta missed that one.

Did you read the first page of tour Alex? Of course you didn't.

I could go on if you like?

By the way Alex...where do you get funding from and how much do YOU give back to your..."fans"?

Dave

[Stephen Strangways]

The way I see it, it doesn't really matter whether the skeptics think it's a Pyramid Scheme or not.

It doesn't really matter whether the participants think it's a Pyramid Scheme or not.

It doesn't really matter whether the people behind it secretly intend it to be a Pyramid Scheme or not.

It does matter if, as a participant or one of the people behind it, you live in a country where Pyramid Schemes are illegal, and the government's lawmakers decide that it is one.

Those countries include the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Brazil, Germany, Norway, Albania, Canada, Romania, Colombia, Malaysia, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Italy, Philippines, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Switzerland ,Thailand, the People's Republic of China, Mexico, Portugal and The Netherlands.

[Howard Shaw]

An awful lot of sarcastic venom from someone trying to sell something to potential customers who have legitimate questions/objections. A film is not interactive. It is built from the writers script and the directors vision. Have fun with that committee voting on whats on the craft service table.

[Stephen Strangways]

Let me go on to say, that as I am a Canadian citizen, and Biracy is run by a Canadian company, I took a look into the law in Canada.

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police site has a link to the Reporting Economic Crimes Online site, which states:
"A pyramid scheme is illegal for the purposes of the Criminal Code when a person participating in the scheme becomes entitled to receive more money than they invested in the scheme by reason of recruiting others. The money is made through recruitment, while the product or service has no real value.
https://recol.ca/scams/advance_fee.aspx#pos3

Page 4 of Biracy's tour states:
"you can see how easy it is to start earning referral fees which will quickly outstrip your own membership fee."
http://www.biracy.com/tour/tour4/

[david geertz]

Thanks for this comment Stephen. Also rest assured that we needed to jump through all the hoops that local and international securities regulators needed before we could begin. Part of that process is being approved by the US government who are very strict about structures that adopt affiliate marketing and word of mouth structures.

Added to this, both the bank (Bank of Montreal) and the payment processors we use also needed to feel comfortable with the structure in light of other schemes and "pyramids" that do nothing other than taking from Peter to pay Paul.


Thanks

David Geertz
Founder + CEO
The Biracy Project
www.biracy.com

[Alex Kornreich]

I think I came off a bit harsh, so I apologize for that. Also, I'm not angry :)

Ultimately, I think this forum is just not your demographic, which is why there's been a strong reaction to the business concept. People here, including myself, decided on the film industry because of the love of making movies, not money. I would've gone to business school and become an investment banker if I wanted to make lots of money.

You're slogan is "Make movies. Make money. Build an audience." By this you infer that you're making money by making movies and building an audience to see those movies. This is deceptive. You're not making money by making movies. You're making rewards points, then using a textbook MLM model to encourage grassroots marketing to attract customers to your business (which happens to be making movies).

It's as if an airline says "get paid to fly with us," when in fact they're referring to miles. Then the airline says that for every person you refer to our airline to buy tickets, we'll pay you. You're getting paid to advertise the airline, not to fly on them.

And BTW, I'm a dp and don't really have any fans per se (does my girlfriend count as one?). I give back by working on low budget/passion projects for free/cheap.

Also, you didn't address where that 75% of the profits actually go. Since rewards points and extending people's memberships costs you very little, I hardly think that will fill up the 75% that goes back to the people.

Lastly, i wasn't stating I was an entrepreneur, I was alluding to your thought process when you hatched the idea.

[Stephen Strangways]

Well that sounds good, David. How do I get more information about the approvals you've received from securities regulators? My apologies if it's on the website somewhere and I just missed it.

[Howard Shaw]

This is so off topic for this web site, but I cant resist. Just had a quick scan of the biracy zone and tried my best to wade through the gobbledy gook and marketingspeak. Man, you web geek carpetbaggers just have to find a way to monetize everything don't you? I live in Vancouver, and know the local industry fairly well, I'm not sure where you guys are from but VFS seems to be your claim to fame in the "industry". This whole "i'm an expert on the indie biz" is a pile of poo and you now it. Theres a sucker born every minute. Best of luck with your "social experiment". (head shaking now)

[david geertz]

Let me go on to say, that as I am a Canadian citizen, and Biracy is run by a Canadian company, I took a look into the law in Canada.

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police site has a link to the Reporting Economic Crimes Online site, which states:
"A pyramid scheme is illegal for the purposes of the Criminal Code when a person participating in the scheme becomes entitled to receive more money than they invested in the scheme by reason of recruiting others. The money is made through recruitment, while the product or service has no real value.
https://recol.ca/scams/advance_fee.aspx#pos3

Page 4 of Biracy's tour states:
"you can see how easy it is to start earning referral fees which will quickly outstrip your own membership fee."
http://www.biracy.com/tour/tour4/


The entry membership is 25 dollars. What you are buying is a copy of the finished film, a membership to the cooperative, and the access to the game. Under both Canadian and US law we are providing a platform and a finished product (if we meet minimum funding requirements. I not 60% of all monies are returned and members can keep their commissions, providing that the bank allows the commissions to exit at all, in which case they would entitled to a full refund) that is totally within reason of the price tag. For all other membership levels people know they are buying additional access to the sales program. If they decide to sell or not is completely up to them. There is no front end loading of product to offload so that also puts us onside.Our response so far has been mostly 25 dollar memberships at about 70% with the other 30% opting for the 100 dollar membership. The people who are buying the 100 dollar membership are confident in their network of friends, and some have noted that the price for the entire process outlined is too low at 25 dollars.

Anyway, the initial reason all this discussion started was because someone posted a marketing link on this forum. That should have never happened, but I felt obliged to step in and explain our system as best possible with both direct responses as well as some obvious sarcasm. We've barely launched and it seems that this site is the only one that is attacking us as most people think its good idea, especially once we get out of beta and allow the site to scale and provide the platform to other filmmakers like yourselves.

I think I've answered everyone's questions here; however, if not...please contact me directly at dgeertz@biracy.com and I will be happy to answer any and all questions about the current project, it's timelines, and the future of our platform at www.sokap.com

thanks for all your input.

David Geertz

[Stephen Strangways]

Well, you didn't answer my question about backing up your claims of government and bank approvals...

[Ace]

I dont get art by committee. I believe that great art can only happen under dictatorships. Or at best, a dictatorship with democratic tendencies. On collaborative artforms such as film (or any project for that matter), it is required that there are many voices and many minds working together to solve problems, that is a given. But the holistic vision and direction must come from one voice, and that voice must have final authority.

What I don't understand is that Biracy seems to take away from why an independant filmmaker would want to make a film in the first place. One would say this isnt about independent film making, but if that's the case, then the current distribution/studio system would be better suited.

Now on the flip side, this is a brilliant experiment in the possibilities of community driven artwork. Through the advent of the internet we've seen the way minds all over the world have been able to collaborate in unprecedented ways. We've seen Youtube conduct the worlds first internet symphony Orchestra. Bands rehearsing online through iChat and so on. What comes out of it, may very well be unique and individual as the process itself. A Biracy film will be different, theres no doubt about that. My only issue is the level of qualification and expertise the contributing "voters" would have in the project. One may say that being a member of the "film audience" provides the ultimate qualification on what ultimately ends up being on screen. But this would be a case of "I dont know what I want, but I'll know it when I see it" wouldnt it? The creative process is very different to that I think. Its one thing to have a team of writers in a room, bouncing ideas off each other and coming up with brilliance. Its another to click a button and vote.

I'm Keen to see what comes out of it. This is an experiment after all.

[david geertz]

Howard Shaw,

I used to do a lot of work for you and Hugh when you were at force 4 back in the day. I used to own pixeltoys. I am also a Capilano grad and know both Peter, Bev and Cam. I've been working in presales, and distribution for about 10 years now and I don't get your VFS comment.

Anyway, the crew of the project are all locals as well and I'm sure you know a whole bunch of them.

Your right about the forum not being right and that was my last comment. Anyway, all the best with your work. I hope you were fortunate enough to snag some 2010 gigs.

thanks
dave

[david geertz]

Well, you didn't answer my question about backing up your claims of government and bank approvals...

i sent you a message.

dave

[Joel Kaye]

If you want to MAKE MONEY by signing up and refering your friends who refer their friends, who refer their friends....(you get the picture), you can make quite a bit money EXPONENTIALLY.

I hope they have a good lawyer. I programmed the back end of an entire MLM website some years back and sat in on many meetings with lawyers and consultants etc. There's a pretty fine line between legit and pyramid. One being members can't make money on a signup fee, they can only make money on actual product sales.

Since there's no actual product completed and sold here I think it's really questionable. It seems more like an investor's prospectus situation - which is a whole other ball of wax.

All I know, I hope a lawyer familiar with this type of structure really looked it over.

[david geertz]

Stephen,

As I suggested, if you'd like to put a request in writing I will look at it. All the information is on the website. The fact that you violated a privacy act by reposting my private email to you just shows that you are a typical agitator with nothing better to do than cause conflict. I'm not posting private business documents here. Even the REDUSER forum, I think would agree with me on that one.

We don't want your feedback. We're in beta. If you'd like more information on who we are partnering with in production, distribution, banking, and all things legal....wait for the press release, as there are plenty of those coming...after beta.

dave

[david geertz]

Thanks for this Joel. Yes...we do have a good legal group that we worked with to ensure that no part of this project was offside. As crowdfunding is a relatively new arena, it did take us a better part of a year to build a structure that both protected the filmmakers, fans as well as any participating third party groups that would/could engage with any and all projects listed on the platform.

Your comment on value is a good one and that is why we needed to ensure that we met minimum requirements, use third party production accounting, completion bonds and bondable DGC/DGA production management members. What most people who work in production don't understand is that the system is a micro version of how studios actually work within the presales marketplace. It's no different than a sales agent preselling 1,000,000 units of DVD to 4 territories. The only difference is that now the voice of the presale is decided by the fan as whether or not

A. The wish to purchase and/or

B. The wish to tell some friends and become an agent to the project.

Great comment

Dave

[Joel Kaye]

Part of that process is being approved by the US government who are very strict about structures that adopt affiliate marketing and word of mouth structures.

What US Gov't branch does that????

Can you provide a link to the U.S. Government approval documents?

[david geertz]

Irmeli,

great comment. You can find that company here

http://cameesa.com/

cheers

dave

[david geertz]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Trade_Commission

you can find it all here.

dave

[Joel Kaye]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Trade_Commission

you can find it all here.

dave

Oh give me a break. You make a post saying the U.S. Gov't approved of it and post a link to the FTC?

Really?

You guys have INTERPRETED the law. You won't know if there's a problem until there's an investigation or a lawsuit. So you can't make the claim you've "been approved". It's just crap. It's the kind of crap I don't expect a CEO to be spouting off about online.

Frankly, if you guys had a project with a script and a director (or a bunch of them) and were asking for investments in those specific things I think the business concept would be more palatable.

But investing in some imaginary future movie with money left over after paying management and commissions sounds wrong on the face of it.

I totally understand the idea that investors in a particular movie could become affiliate resellers of THAT movie. Or even a market basket of movies. That could be potentially be interesting.

Have you recently distributed a $500k movie for profit? Do you have a distributor lined up for your future movie?

Doesn't everything you're doing seem backasswords. It's all about recruiting new memberships and nothing about the movie.