3d handheld

[Johnny Johnson]

Bit of a newbie question to 3d here, but can someone explain the difficulties in filming 3d handheld.

Hypothetically, is it very difficult to achieve something like blair witch with a 3d rig (apart from the weight).

Would a predominantly handheld 3d film require a motion control rig to imitate the handheld movements to make them accurate enough?

[KETCH ROSSi]

S3D rigs already exist from more then one manufacturer, such as Element Technica, and those build by Pace.

Once you have your crew set up, the only difference of shooting S3D is that there will be more controls to play with, and more people doing different things, not as simple, but not that extremely complicated either, not just something any one can do on the fly either, but it can be done, and it is been done.

[Johnny Johnson]

Thanks for the info Ketch, your answer was a bit general though. I was after a little more insight into HANDHELD shooting specifically

[GPSchnyder]

Well,
as far as I know you can use the 3d-Rigs the same as a normal one Camera Rig. You have to set it up before shooting which takes longer, but set up and ready to shoot there shouldn't be a big difference.

The Set up will take you longer thou, as you have mot to control. Not only Focus, Aperture and Zoom, if on a Zoom lens, but also the angle of the Cams, the right adjustment to each other and fo forth.

But after having set up the thing there will be no difference. At least If you don't want to zoom while working the Cam Handheld.

But you should think about Handheld work even more than in 2d. 3d tends to work better with slower movement and longer cuts. Handheld in 3d will have an even more extreme impact than its equivalent in 2d.

None the less I will use Handheld for a lot of Scenes also when I get my Scarlet 3D Rig. But I will use it more like Static Shots with a little bit of moving life in it :-)

[KETCH ROSSi]

Johnny, unfortunately your question was also a bit general :~).

There are many types of Hand Held configurations, as well as they are in standard 2D is the same for 3D, mainly do to the two system set up, as side by side, Parallel Stereo rig, or in "L"shape configuration Imager Splitter configuration, there are units of different settings and size, each will vary greatly on the type of cameras used, and on the lenses used, as well as the various accessories needed to control them, such as running wireless motors up to 3, if you use zooms, up to 3 controls as well to take care of divergence/Convergence, and Interocular distance, as you shoot.

You can achieve a very well shot and well controlled scene with higher hand rigs, as they are much better designed, and will allow for easier movement and control, but again it will only be so in the hands of a experienced user, so if you have never done this it will take some extra practice then with a standard rig set up.

Vincent Pace from Pace Fusion, is the one that has done incredibly well at this, showcased recently for NFL were He shot entire sequences of the game in 3D broadcasted in 3D, this are extremely costly, but available to serve your needs,

ET, has been definitely doing a fantastic job as well, but their current available rig is very large, not too heavy do, at only 19lb, (rig Only plus cameras, monitors, lenses, and accessories) but they are hard at work on smaller rigs.

But my best suggestion and recommendation is to do same serious research and visit the various manufacturers your self, as I have been doing, and continue to do, to find the best solutions for my Needs.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Bit of a newbie question to 3d here, but can someone explain the difficulties in filming 3d handheld.

Hypothetically, is it very difficult to achieve something like blair witch with a 3d rig (apart from the weight).

Would a predominantly handheld 3d film require a motion control rig to imitate the handheld movements to make them accurate enough?

Johnny -

I've shot hand-held tests in 3D and I can tell you that when I screened the test shots in the theater - it struck me that I had never really seen anything like it before. While I found the look of 3D hand-held to be strangely "real" - I found that "typical" hand held movements felt "larger", less subtle and more distracting than in 2D hand-held. This is a obviously a very subjective thing - so you would have to shoot tests on the rig you intent to use and screen the results.

Many of the "challenges" of shooting "good" 3D can be amplified in going hand-held. If you are a "newbie" I recommend you read 3D Movie Making by Bernard Mendiburu twice. It's an excellent primer.

[KETCH ROSSi]

Agree with Mark John, Mendiburu's book is a good start which I ahve come across early this year, and even so you can easily find all the contain info on the net, well with atone of searching :~), I also recommend this read, here before you order it, give this a read:

http://books.google.com/books?id=2LA7vfqv0bMC&pg=PT196&lpg=PT196&dq=3D+Movie+Making+by+Bernard+Mendiburu+PDF&source=bl&ots=ewJe5wQXWG&sig=E1W1BxJ_WdMg0lPC7c9Tku4J3v8&hl=en&ei=c8s3S6yxNZOoswPVssmJBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

[Stephen Strangways]

Some great fundamentals and history are in "Foundations of the Stereoscopic Cinema."
You can find a free PDF of it, and a couple of other titles, here:
http://stereoscopic.org/library/index.html

[KETCH ROSSi]

Ha ha, Stephen, you were faster, that was exactly what I was going to suggest as well, and He can read about my con-nationals early participation to the discovery and use of 3D.

Take note however, that this manuscripts are pretty aged, and S3D has come quite far, so some will only apply partially, while other such as Gosthing, have been greatly improved on and or reduce or eliminated all together, by modern technologies.

[Jackson Yeung]

Just out of curiosity and as a conversation starter:
3D rigs on Steadicam? i heard a rumour from an operator on set and he claims such rigs are becoming more prevalent. Apparently (for beam splitter rigs) they mount one camera on the post aiming into the beam splitter unit (which sits offset the post), while a second camera is mounted on the centre post pointing upwards into said unit..
That must be a NIGHTMARE for balance.. not to mention ones back..

[Carlo Rho]

Last Spring a large crew shoot 3D images in the San Fermin fair in Pamplona (Spain), for the upcoming IMAX release "Running with Bulls". They've shoot with many different cameras on a variety of rigs. They put the REDs on a Steady with a custom rig, apparently it works fine in the worst possible scenario, shooting in between the fair, half of the assistance is drunk, looks light a nightmare. Here the only pic I found, more info on this project also @ Assimilate.

[Pedro Guimaraes]

not back....legs mostly. Then when you get tired your form suffers and your back starts to take some weight.

I have done many steadicam 3D shots. Some parrallel, some beamsplitter.

Of course smaller lighter cameras are way better suited to steadicam/handdeld work.

The guys from Action3D that are shooting the lalapolooza concerts have 2 roving stedicams at all the concerts. They are using parallel cunima cameras.

My bloddy valentine and now The mortician have now used SI-2k mini's in mini beamspliters or parallel config.

We have used the BX3 beam splitter and red ones on a steadicam.....very difficult but we got our shots.

As far as handheld, I have done plenty of it. you do have to be cautious of your camera movement but it can be very effective. James cameron did alot of the handheld operating himself (I saw a behind the scenes) using a bungee rig. We did something similiar in our last project. We built and amazing bungee rig and it worked great. Gave the actions scenes a much more kinetic and frantic feel.

As soon as I can get approval I can post some pictures of how we did all this....

[KETCH ROSSi]

Yes Pedro, for some of the Handheld shot they did, but remember that My Bloody Valentine was shot with two different S3D camera configurations, by Paradise FX, and they used both RED ONE cameras in a Imager Splitter as well as the SI-K2 mini, and most likely my two R1's #851 & #852 were used on the RED ONE set up, since they have them in a long term lease.

[Hrvoje Simic]

I found that "typical" hand held movements felt "larger", less subtle and more distracting than in 2D hand-held. This is a obviously a very subjective thing - so you would have to shoot tests on the rig you intent to use and screen the results.


I think in 3D we are much more sensitive for unnatural looking shots and hand-held look is one of them, especially with the lack of temporal resolution.

While it may be subjective thing, I think this particular issue is actually perfectly natural response since our 3D perception is accustomed to more "stabilized" look. I don't think hand-held goes well with immersive. I'm kind of surprised filmmakers are actually using this type of shots for 3D instead of steady/jib/crane for camera motion. Guessing steady cam work is pretty limited due to 3D rig configuration.

[Johnny Johnson]

thanks for all the replies. I had seen Jim Cameron doing handheld in avatar behind the scenes stuff.

I still think that handheld stuff in avatar is fairly smooth though. I guess it will be a few years until a handycam style of 3d film like blair witch or cloverfield comes along as time is needed to get used to 3d.

3d TV's might accellerate the process though as they are clearly going to become widespread next year. I felt sick watching the last bourne film in 2d, imagine the queasiness when the next one inevitably goes 3d

[KETCH ROSSi]

Yes Johnny, but those James Cameron's hand held shots were done with a very sophisticated Virtual S3D cameras which lets you monitor what you are sooting in order to give a clear perspective of how the scene shot is coming along, as well as been able to literally dive inside the scene it self, all in the Virtual world.

Vince Pace's hand held rigs used also in recent test for S3D Live Broadcast of various NFL games (not Video games) were the actual cameras designed by Pace Fusion for this exact purpose "S3D Hand Held" but I'm telling you there is so much coming in 2010 that is just Magical to be part of this crescendo of the 3D industry, so solutions are already there and more are coming, just continue to keep in mind that this are not so easy to operate, and a Stereographer has a far more complicated job then a Cinematographer.

See below a Hand held (shoulder mount) Imager Splitter camera system.

http://www.motorcyclingmag.com/files/3D-MotoGP_Filming-Laguna-Seca%201.jpg

[Pedro Guimaraes]

No way it's the "doctor"!! Go ROSSI!

[Jeff Coatney]

I would think that typical hand held techniques may be too kinetic for viewing in 3D. I think the steadicam would limit the jerkiness that could induce nausea/vertigo, while still giving you the immediacy and reality you may be after. Testing might be a good idea before you commit to a specific style. JMSAO*

*Just My Sorry Ass Opinion.

[Markus Stone]

I once saw a standard P+S rig on a steadicam with 2 x SI-2K minis. The steadicam was fully extended and fully counterweighted - you needed a tall operator so the thing didn't hit the ground.

It's possible, but I'd submit that this is about the limit in terms of both size and weight.

Of course, P+S are coming out with a dedicated 3D steadicam rig now - where BOTH cameras move for interaxial so it doesn't affect your stedicam balance. Be interesting to see put through it's paces.

-Markus

[Chosei Funahara]

I hope Red, 3rd party 3D PL lens and new 3D firmware will be my dream, Panasonic can do it, why Red 3D digital?

http://www.genkosha.com/vs/new_products/entry/hd3d.html

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http://www.genkosha.com/vs/new_products/entry/hd3d.html&sl=ja&tl=en

[Pedro Guimaraes]

This is a great behind the scenes on AVATAR where you can see steadicam beamsplitter, handheld, dolly.......etc....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61kMpOgkZRs