delivery schedule

[tj williams]

I've seen a number of assumptions about when certain numbers might be delivered.

Any word from red crew about production goals, batch sizes, etc will be much appreciated. Probably important to let people know if there is actually any chance of getting it at NAB or in June etc. to avoid dissapointed folk who have heard rumors.

With over 1300 on order nice to have some kind of idea from someone with knowledge.

[Jason Francois]

With over 1300 on order nice to have some kind of idea from someone with knowledge.

I have knowledge, and the answer is simply that it can't be determined as of yet. Too many variables. Too many unknowns.

Remember those wine people from the 80's? Ernest and Julio Gallo. "we will ship no RED, before it's time".

Sorry, if that's not what you wanted to hear, so you might need somebody with even more knowledge than myself. :)

EDIT: I think we can assume that we will know here just about as quickly as it becomes public knowledge...maybe even a couple of seconds before. :)

[Rick Darge]

I'm jiving that the Red guys will ship the first camera come NAB time

That's just a guess though


:)

[Jannard]

The goal is to ship the very 1st cameras around NAB. We will then ramp up production as quickly as possible to fill the reservations. We are at the most difficult stage of development. Many new surprises are popping up. But we are dedicating as many resources as possible to avoid a schedule slip. It doesn't mean we won't have one, but we are taking the timetable very seriously. It is impossible at this point to say when all reservation holders will get their cameras. It depends a lot on how smoothly we can ramp up. And we won't really know that until we get there.

I'll say again that this is a VERY difficult trick we are attempting. We hope that our customers will be patient knowing we are doing absolutely everything we can to deliver. Remember, I am a customer too. And I NEED one.

Jim

[Don Woods]

Sounds good Jim thanks for keeping us up to date. I'm sure it will go as smothly as posible. And the way I look at for what I'm getting at the price point I am getting it. I can wait.

[Brook Willard]

Remember, I am a customer too. And I NEED one.

Jim

Now there's a post I'm looking forward to...

"RED ONE #1 has shipped... it's everything I'd ever want in a camera. If I designed a camera, this would be it. I give it a 100% perfect review score."

[Jannard]

My bet is that there are still some surprises left in the bag that will bring joy to the hearts of the RED ONE reservation holders. Since the reservations are now closed, I will say that the believers will get a better package than those that place orders at NAB and beyond.

Jim

[Joe Carney]

I don't mind waiting till end of 2007. When reservations reopen at NAB I'll reserve the zoom lens at that time and it's not slated to ship until end of this year. I prefer to get the camera and lens at the same time. Gives me more time to raise money and finance less. By the end of the year I'll be able to afford more accessories too.

In the mean time, I'm happy with my JVC hd100 and Vegas.
Just my .02

better right than quick.

p.s. If this round had stayed open just one more day I could have reserved the zoom. Ce la vie mes amie.

[Corrado Silveri]

My bet is that there are still some surprises left in the bag that will bring joy to the hearts of the RED ONE reservation holders. Since the reservations are now closed, I will say that the believers will get a better package than those that place orders at NAB and beyond.

Jim

As a believers, I really appreciate your words, Jim.
Thanks another time for all your effort in this incredible project.

I can't wait to know all the details, but I'm sure I will remain a "believer".

[Don Woods]

My bet is that there are still some surprises left in the bag that will bring joy to the hearts of the RED ONE reservation holders. Since the reservations are now closed, I will say that the believers will get a better package than those that place orders at NAB and beyond.

Jim

Sounds good Jim I can't wait... But I still need to get my serial numbers.. Kelly help please... But In all due time I am stoked :D

[Brook Willard]

More surprises? Free XUV with every purchase? Free set of Master Primes? What could it be!?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jim's words are always encouraging and his involvement with the community is truly awesome. I can't wait to receive my RED kit...

[Jason Francois]

Jim's words are always encouraging and his involvement with the community is truly awesome. I can't wait to receive my RED kit...

It's so awesome that it really IS one of those times when "awesome" (a very overused term) fits perfectly.

[Steve Freebairn]

Sweeeeeeeeet! Thank you Jim!

[Corrado Silveri]

Really sweet.
I want to do something (more than some desktop backgrounds).
I want to celebrate.

What can I do?

Only waiting?

[Gabriel Beaudry]

Really sweet.
I want to do something (more than some desktop backgrounds).
I want to celebrate.

What can I do?

Only waiting?

You can always start speculating on what will be in the kit.;)

[Steve Gibby]

Remember, I am a customer too. And I NEED one.

This is the cool fact that sometimes gets overlooked - Jim is a veteran photographer, cinematographer, and videographer. He's been shooting for decades now. He stated last year in my interview with him that in previous years he was looking around for a flexible and scalable digital cinema camera and just couldn't find what he wanted and needed - so he decided to build what he wanted and needed. I think all of us are unbelievably lucky that he did decide to build it - and share it with us. Yeah, RED is a business, and yeah, it will probably be a profitable business, but Jim was already highly successful in business, and he didn't have to build RED One, and he didn't have to offer it to the public. I can't believe how stoked I am that he did...

[Rick Darge]

I think the kit will come with some form of bobble head, whether that be a bobble head of George W Bush or a bobble head of Babe Ruth, only time will tell...


Only time will tell....


I'm so happy to be apart of this club of risktakers and believers..

[S. Um]

More surprises? Free XUV with every purchase? Free set of Master Primes? What could it be!?


Free sticker?

[Chris Gearhart]

Free sticker?

Funny, I ordered two stickers and got two free RED One R's.

Seriously, this is all so fun! Thanks for tossing a steak to the starving masses, Jim!

(Were Ernest and Julio all the way in the eighties?)

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Jim is indeed giving us a great gift. Sometime this year we will get the opportunity to make moving images at a level that only a tiny few have been able to come close to. Without Jim to create the RedOne I estimate it would have been another decade before we would have seen kit at this level and that the price would have been many times higher. As I drive around I find myself noticing things that I can't wait to shoot with the RedOne, my enthusiasm for the craft has ramped up just because of the tool.

thank you Red Leader

(I just read my own post for typos and realized I am a hopeless fanboy, well so be it!)

[Steve Gibby]

(I just read my own post for typos and realized I am a hopeless fanboy, well so be it!)

Nah... you're a hyper-amped shooter looking forward to a gnarly-cool tool!

Enjoy the stoke...

[Ralph Oshiro]

Since the reservations are now closed, I will say that the believers will get a better package than those that place orders at NAB and beyond. JimYayyyyy!!! Jim is the greatest man to have ever lived! Hail to Jim! Woo hoo! Yippee!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Free sticker?

Well... OK. But I already bought a bunch of those. :D

[robbo]

"Originally Posted by Jannard
Since the reservations are now closed, I will say that the believers will get a better package than those that place orders at NAB and beyond. Jim"

And fair enough, too !

Shit, I nearly hit the button with 3 hours to go last night - but I just can't stretch that far at the moment. There are other fish to fry for me first that have to take priority. Bummer - oh well - sometime in the next year or so for me.

For the rest of you guys - I look forward to seeing the results !

And hey it ain't so bad - hell, I can always rent !

[Trevor Meier]

My bet is that there are still some surprises left in the bag that will bring joy to the hearts of the RED ONE reservation holders. Since the reservations are now closed, I will say that the believers will get a better package than those that place orders at NAB and beyond.


I'm hoping for a Jim bobblehead, a set of master primes, and a rifle for keeping everybody else's greedy hands off my RED :)

[Gregory Karydis]

Something special for believers?
How about a limited (same serial as the camera) set of Juliet glasses?
with RED polarized lens :D
Oh and how about them T-Shirts?
OR
they could bundle a red raid ;)
or maybe a cage
or a free laptop to work on your 4K footage while on the field.

Hey, I got an idea,
How about a limited Red One (product red) dyed red like the iPod nano :)
though 10$ sounds very little to go for aid to 3rd world countries so why not 5% of the retail price?

[Rick Darge]

I wonder who has camera #666 ?

[SalaTar]

bet 666 was skipped like floor 13

[Ralph Oshiro]

(I just read my own post for typos and realized I am a hopeless fanboy, well so be it!)I just re-read MY post. I've turned into an even more hopeless fanboy! But I know why (as Gibby points out) . . . It's the idea of those pristine, silky smooth, "chocolat-ey" images that I'll be able to produce, with that razor-thin, S35-class, shallow depth-of-field . . . which will enable me to convert a world of distracting background elements into artistic, abstract bokehs of color and light. Just . . . can't . . . f'ing . . . wait!

[Blaine Golden]

My bet is that there are still some surprises left in the bag that will bring joy to the hearts of the RED ONE reservation holders. Since the reservations are now closed, I will say that the believers will get a better package than those that place orders at NAB and beyond.

JimWhat a tease...:D

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

My bet is that there are still some surprises left in the bag

2 color films and free development?

Jochen

[Hrvoje Simic]

This RED saga makes me feel like a child......and I see I'm not the only one...

thanx Jim. That is so cool.

[Mardi_Gras]

This RED saga makes me feel like a child......and I see I'm not the only one...

thanx Jim. That is so cool.
Sorry pal, but you are!...



... just kidding, no seriously you are the only one... to have spelt it out like it truly is.

[Dominic Jones]

2 color films and free development?

Jochen
LOL!!!

[mezmo]

My bet is that there are still some surprises left in the bag that will bring joy to the hearts of the RED ONE reservation holders. Since the reservations are now closed, I will say that the believers will get a better package than those that place orders at NAB and beyond.

Jim
Believers will get a better package????????
Sorry Jim,
But this is a really silly attitude for you and your company to have.
Those people who hung out to purchase the Arri 35BL3-4,the Arri SR2-3
the AAton XLR, the Sony DVW 970 the Cinealta F900/3 and others
certainly got better equipment than models that preceeded them.
Sure they paid more money for the experience but they didn't have to
suffer the problems of early prototypes.
I am very interested in purchasing one maybe two Digital Film cameras
in the future but I refuse to do so untill I can test and asess this new technology in a variety of different shooting situations.
Sorry again but your marketing hype is really begining to wear.
Can we be honest here? There seems to be little concern for buyers
beyond the initial 1300 odd first orders.
What are you planning at that point? A major price rise?
Is the business to be sold off to a competitor?
I've been buying film cameras for many years and frankly the way
this camera is being presented for sale is very odd.
Believers and non believers ???
I know this has has been an enormous challange and everyone's
excited but I just want to buy or hire a good reliable camera that
works like my BL or SR and start shooting Digital Film ASAP.
Can you help me?
__________________________ Mezmo

[Teague Kennedy]

mezmo -- wouldn't you expect that those that take risk should have more payoff? You cannot bet on a high odds horse and make alot of money. Some of us believed in the project before we "tested." I'm sure that Jim will be more than fair to any customer that buys into RED (likely moreso than any other camera company), but some of us that placed reservations months and months ago feel like we are a little bitty part of the company. Try not to be a hater.

[Phil Becque]

Hi Mezmo

You make some interesting points but I don't think it's a fair to make the comparison between what the guys at RED are attempting to do and what the likes of Sony and Arri have done in the past.

In case you hadn't noticed RED is a massive quantum leap beyond anything that has gone before - either on performance or price. On top of that the folks at RED have decided to develop some aspects of their camera in public!!

Maybe you can remind me when you last spoke with Sony R&D about what features you'd like to see in various parts of their new camera?? Hmm I thought not?

You find it odd that the word believers is used. Well that's quite simple. I stumbled across RED via the Sundance web site and decided to take a look. I'd never heard of any of them until 2 weeks ago. I do what due dilligence I can - I get an friend of mine who's been in the television and film for 30 years to take look - as far as we can tell - it's all legitimate.

Then comes the crunch - the belief if you like - a time bound reservation system is opened up for 3 days for anyone who believes that these guys can make a go of it. The price for holding this belief is $1000 - refundable if you get cold feet at any stage.

Well - that was a no brainer really - I signed up (#1319) on the basis that if they do make a go of it, I get an absolutely incredible camera for the price of a second hand car (in the UK anyways) not the price of a small house. If they don't make a go of it by NAB - it'll most likely show up later in the year. I'm fine with that.

My advice Mezmo is to accept the fact that you are not - by nature a risk taker - unlike the guys at RED and most of the guys and gals on this forum.

With that in mind you should go along to NAB - seeing is believing - if you like what you see put down a deposit. If you are still not sure - rent one from any of the people who had the balls (can I say that?) to front up $1000 in the first place.

Personaly I think everyone on this forum who has reserved deserves more in their goodie bags than the laggards that follow, because they've effectively backed the company in it's hour of need by giving them a predictable revenue stream. I think that's what Jim is responding to when he says 'believers will get a better package'.

And I say "Hear hear - What a bloke!!"

[REDHKSC]

RED is not only making D-Cinema Camera but building up the affordable 4K Content Creation market as well.

" Rome was not bulit in a Day " and China ?

I just tell the Thomson guys from Shanghai - CHINA that I am happy to wait for my future only with the right tool than just buying the " Total Solution " from S,T or P ( even for them 1+1+1 just 3 not equal to 5 or 6 ...., it's simply becasue they are only pass the examination of the HD1080 and not even to
2K !!!

Check this out the " Grass Valley " recent suvey http://enquetes.panelontheweb.com/Prod/enquetes/V9216200U/UK/Form5.asp#B_Q01

Stewart

[Rick Darge]

Great post - My feelings exactly

[mezmo]

mezmo -- wouldn't you expect that those that take risk should have more payoff? You cannot bet on a high odds horse and make alot of money. Some of us believed in the project before we "tested." I'm sure that Jim will be more than fair to any customer that buys into RED (likely moreso than any other camera company), but some of us that placed reservations months and months ago feel like we are a little bitty part of the company. Try not to be a hater.

Doc,
don't get me wrong, I love the idea of Red and you definitly need to
be rewarded for buying into the first model of Red. I really really hope this
camera is sucessfull in the market place, it will bring in a new era of
low cost Digital Film.
Call me old fashioned but I like to get my hands on a camera and try
before I buy. I'm just asking Jim if this will incure a penality in the
pricing department and why so.
Also I'm curious as to what are his plans for the company. My garage
is stacked with Film/Video gear that is no longer in service.
Parts unavailable, outdated software, with suppliers no longer concerned.
Companies get bought, get sold, go broke. Customers seem to be the
last consideration.
This business is an expensive business to be in. I'm interested in Red and
I'm also interested minimizing costs at any oportunity.
If Jim keeps a lid on Red's price and it's as good as I think it'll be,
don't worry I'll go for it. But Doc, I'll never be a believer. Just a user.
_______________________________________ Mezmo

[Craig Schober]

My advice Mezmo is to accept the fact that you are not - by nature a risk taker - unlike the guys at RED and most of the guys and gals on this forum.

mezmo isn't afraid to take risks as much as he/she are unwilling to make changes. people like mezmo probably make a good living working within the current system and are happy with the status quo.

i think red is trying to create more than just a new 4k camera. in a few years (due in part to red's pioneering work), 4k cameras will be a dime a dozen and users will be thirsting for an entire 4k camera/workflow/distribution/marketing platform-a platform that red is creating from the ground up. that involves more than just a bankroll. it involves a few thousand users willing to put up $1000 initially for the chance to get in early and be part of that change. it sounds like corny marketing speak but the "revolution" of red is a lot more than just the great pricing.

[Phil Becque]

Hey Wigby - Good points about what the revolution can bring going forward and you are right - it's about a lot more than just great pricing - though that is the entry point for the Indie people like me.

All the best, Phil

[REDHKSC]

Don't forget the Market needs time to develop, and educating the market is the key to speed up the new users learning curve so they will believe we hope.

" WE don't need no education " beleive it or not, there are 1500 RED bricks on the Walls.

Stewart
Leader is Leader , User is User " No risk no gain " in people business world .. that's life.

[mezmo]

Hi Tranquil Light,
From my experience both Arri & Sony are happy to take suggestions
on new gear or prototypes. I had some of the first Sony PVW Betacams, a
twisting cassette cradle was redesigned and replaced, no biggie. Loose mainboard components, they replaced the machine.
Guys that bought PVW's after me probably got a better machine.
I got mine a bit cheaper, they were demo's.

Arri will bring out a prototype of cameras like the Arricam. They do
a Global tour and invite suggestions with the designer present.
Many changes are made before the camera ships.
This is normal and at no time are you asked to be a believer.

I'm quite happy to pay a liitle more for Red 2500 or whaterver
but having learned a lesson from my betacams and other gear
I'll hang back a bit.
Red is just a tool like many other cameras and I look forward
to using it.
_________________________________Mezmo

[Tonaci Tran]

Call me old fashioned but I like to get my hands on a camera and try
before I buy. I'm just asking Jim if this will incure a penality in the
pricing department and why so. Mezmo

Why so?
I believe us reservation holders deserve a benefit for the "risk" we are taking of buying before trying. Call it the early bird special. Reward those who come early.

Either way you look at it. The only 4k cameras I know of are the dalsa and phantom HD, I don't know their price tags...but my guess is that they probably cost 6-10 times the price of the RED. Even if the price was doubled.. it would still be a still of a deal for what it can do.

[Tonaci Tran]

Arri will bring out a prototype of cameras like the Arricam. They do
a Global tour and invite suggestions with the designer present.
Many changes are made before the camera ships.


This is what has amazed me thus far about the RED TEAM. Everyone has been approachable. I don't see other camera manufacturer staff in chat rooms divulging this much information and taking this much feedback form users. This level of involvement is unheard of.

[jbeale]

Hi Tranquil Light,
From my experience both Arri & Sony are happy to take suggestions
on new gear or prototypes.
_________________________________Mezmo
I guess "Sony" is actually the same name for a number of different companies... My experience is that Sony is completely unapproachable and will not take any suggestions from existing customers, much less hold open discussions with not-yet-customers on a web forum.

[Mike Devlin]

I guess "Sony" is actually the same name for a number of different companies... My experience is that Sony is completely unapproachable and will not take any suggestions from existing customers, much less hold open discussions with not-yet-customers on a web forum.

My experience with Sony has been extremely good. Not only have they taken (and solicited input) but they have also sent a product manager out to a remote location to see our particular shooting conditions and help optimize camera settings. I believe part of the responsibility is ours in how we approach the manafucturers. I have had great luck with all of the manufacturers I have dealt with (Sony, Fujinon, Cineflex) and found all of them staffed with excellent people who are very interested in how folks are really using their product.

Clearly Red is taking an even more open approach, soliciting input online in a very innovative manner. I am waiting to see how it goes the first time I am out in the middle of the wilderness in Alaska and have a major issues with one of our RED cameras (we have reserved two but expect several more if things go well). What kind of support will I get from RED? I am expecting great support, and in spite of the posts by many others I believe (at least for me) Sony and the rest of the manufacturers have set a very high bar.

[Finner]

Mezmo

You talk about Jim working the "hype" but in the end Jim did not mention that the initial buyers would get a better package until all the reservations were in. So how is this working up hype, If Jim really had wanted to use hype he would of mentioned it before the reservations.

It sounds like you want it all. You want all the advantages of a fully field tested camera for a very low price and are just bitter that the red is not setting the camera sales up this way. If users field tests all come back possitive I would suggest you grab a reservation very quick or you could be way down on the list. I feel there are a lot of others on the fence like you and if demand goes way through the roof I would be very surprised if the price stayed as low as it is.

[Craig Schober]

i think people are talking about 2 different kinds of consumers here. i make purchasing decisions and shoot low budget stuff but am not a professional nor do i expect sony and panasonic to come out and check my shooting conditions should i have a technical problem. i might be considered a prosumer because i'm buying redone instead of a car this year. but i'm not intending to buy several reds or any other cams to arm my company with. red is a startup so it only makes sense for them to cater to bigger guys and small guys like me. sony, pana, jvc don't care about me because i have no intention of placing orders with them nor do i exhibit product loyalty (i have a dvx100, hvx200 and recently sold my sony hv1u) with any of them.

and as far as red oweing us for being early adopters...that's nonsense. everyone in technology knows that you pay the price for being the early adopter but you stand to reap the possible rewards too. i don't expect anything from red except a great cam and great service. so far, i've seen no evidence to make me expect anything less.

[Phil Becque]

Hi Tranquil Light,
From my experience both Arri & Sony are happy to take suggestions
on new gear or prototypes. I had some of the first Sony PVW Betacams, a
twisting cassette cradle was redesigned and replaced, no biggie. Loose mainboard components, they replaced the machine.
Guys that bought PVW's after me probably got a better machine.
I got mine a bit cheaper, they were demo's.

Arri will bring out a prototype of cameras like the Arricam. They do
a Global tour and invite suggestions with the designer present.
Many changes are made before the camera ships.
This is normal and at no time are you asked to be a believer.

I'm quite happy to pay a liitle more for Red 2500 or whaterver
but having learned a lesson from my betacams and other gear
I'll hang back a bit.
Red is just a tool like many other cameras and I look forward
to using it.
_________________________________Mezmo

Well - fair comment - my impression was that little or no useful input went from the average user into the corporate R&D melting pot. But if that's the case, then you do wonder why these massive companies with colossal resources are being out manoeuvred by a dozen or so 'men in a shed' who just happen to have a vision of what is possible with the current technology.

Maybe instead of asking for a better 'twisting cassette cradle' you should have asked for a 12,000,000 pixel, 60 fps, 35mm replacement camera for less than $20,000.

Sorry that was a bit harsh - but I couldn't resist it;)

No hard feelings, Phil

[Steve Gibby]

To those fans of the traditional big camera company development and marketing model:

"Tire tracks all across your back, I can see you had your fun" (Crosstown Traffic by Jimi Hendrix)

Nuff said...

[Poi Boy]

Jimmi was ahead of the times; Jimmi would be red today.
Aloha
-A

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Gibby - you're killing me dude.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jimmi was ahead of the times; Jimmi would be red today.

..As opposed to purple and hazy?

[Poi Boy]

probably red and very hazy.
-A

[mezmo]

My bet is that there are still some surprises left in the bag that will bring joy to the hearts of the RED ONE reservation holders. Since the reservations are now closed, I will say that the believers will get a better package than those that place orders at NAB and beyond.

Jim

Hi Jim and the Red Army,(Mao had plenty of faithfull followers)

My bitch here is not with the Red camera, love the idea don't
hate it. Nor the pricing policy (unless it skyrockets). I'd just
like to test, rent, and eventually buy the camera without the hype.
What I do believe is Red will be just another imaging tool and a small
part of the workflow needed to produce a Digital film for theatrical
release.
I'm sorry but your believer statement in the post above really got my
back up.
Also the strange lack of concern for buyers at and beyond NAB had me
worried about continuity and serviceability with this camera.
You are a small and new establishment. Are agents planned for offshore
sales?
The Red Army have tipped in with a whole bunch of suggestions,
(thank you guys) but they don't cover all of my concerns.

I'd hate to see the hype on this forum get to fever pitch and mask
any serious discussion on the Red camera as it gets ready for release.
If problems occour after the release of this camera and can't be
discussed here without offending someone from Red, it would be
a sad thing.
Please cut the hype Jim as the camera gets ready to make it's debut
on the world stage. I for one am very excited.
Ow, and a couple of prototypes out there and shooting before NAB
would be great too. We could test, tinker and endorse the thing.

Many thanks______________________________Mezmo
P.S. Red Army please back off and let Jim answer.

[Poi Boy]

I don't consider myself a red army or army of one or whatever, but I just can't imagine how Jim's quote got you back up ? Huh ??
-A

[Ken Willinger]

I would suggest that the "believers" are those who put up the money ahead of the release of a product in the belief that they could be part of a great new system. There is nothing wrong with that and because they were willing to put that dough up front, RED is rewarding these early adopters possibly with a better package than what will be available to those who didn’t pony up early. Let’s think of it as possible interest on the initial investment.

There is nothing wrong with your approach to see what is produced before jumping in. But there is also no risk in that, no money up front…and no surprises, because you're not an early adopter.

So I don’t know why you’re even concerned about all this. Just wait until the product comes out and decide then whether this is a tool for you or not. You make it sound like the “believers” are some kind of cult. No, we just put up $1000 in the belief that we’ll be in early on a cool tool.

I don't think Jim has anything to answer to.

[tj williams]

After Sony Admitted they had a problem with the sensor block component in our HDCam, (It is "sensivive" to the high altitude conditions in aircraft), which caused it to permanently lose pixels.

We got the early adopter special Sony offer, to replace it for the retail price. of 22K almost the value of the used camera body. They sold these cameras initially for bleeding edge pricing. Every year they have become cheaper for the later adopters. I think it's rather refreshing to see the RED folk offer a better/more complete/cheaper? deal to the early adopters.

ps: The regional rep from Sony was very sympathetic to our problems the executives who actually made the decisions about what to do with our camera were much less so.

A couple of NABs ago I met with the US head of the Sony division which was going to introduce the Z1U camera. At that time they had only a non working prototype. I asked him why the lens barrel had no marks on the focus ring? He explained the workings of the yet to be introduced camera. You know how it works right. (Motorized different positions are focused at different zoom settings) When I challenged this as making it virtually impossible for an assistant to work in long proven ways, his response was that most of them would be sold for the use of parents to take pictures of their kids anyway!
Kid pics for 7K? The reason companies like RED etc. will succeed in this market is that the big companies are really out of touch with reality!

[Stephen Gentle]

My bet is that there are still some surprises left in the bag that will bring joy to the hearts of the RED ONE reservation holders. Since the reservations are now closed, I will say that the believers will get a better package than those that place orders at NAB and beyond.

Jim

Damn :(... I won't be able to afford one for at least four or five years...

[mezmo]

Hi TJ
That's bad luck with your camera it should have been replaced,
sounds like a lemon. I had to squeal like a stuck pig to get my
PVW replaced but they did it in end.
A phone call and very formal letter in
J
A
P
A
N
E
S
E
did the trick.
I,m very happy to see competition for Sony in the form of Red
even if they are very different cameras.

____________________________________ mezmo

[peter roehsler]

Dear believers, sceptics, convicts, converts etc:
Let´s look at this from the man´s point of view: he just knows he is up to something. He has the knowledge, the skill and the money to hire some of the best to make it happen. Plan gets announced, a buzz forms around this project. Some call it hype, some may call it cult, I call it specs and value for money. Specs most of us have been strategically deprived of by the biggies, who line up their products/markets by spending power of their costumers. I am sure Jim Jannard will not, as a matter of principle, loose money on RED. He may be willing to write off R&D expenses over a much longer peridod of time than other companies, but then again this is his very personal project as a unsatisfied shooter, which he decided he can afford. To announce goodies at the end of the reservation period rather prooves that there was never any marketing gag involved and that the number of early adopters has probably exceeded his estimation. With his financial background and at this stage of development, he did not need the $ 1.000 fee for RED. This was a rather good way to find out how many units would actually sell at the price point of $ 17.500. (A break-in at the RED office could also be considered as the first flattering form of recognition from the outside world - no matter who was behind this, unless they were after petty-cash.)
Hands-on buying decisions definitely have their merits in the mechanical world - and sturdy does RED look in any case - but they will not work for microprocessors, hard drives and image sensors. In electronic imaging you either trust the specs of a tool or you believe in a brand name, who `will do the rest ...´

[mezmo]

Hi Getken,
My concern is that Red camera may not be the right camera
for many early adopters who put all the money down early on a Red
package before the camera has been properly tested.
Blind faith and belief don't appeal to me but seem to be O.K for
many potential Red buyers. This camera is such a new,new piece of
technology it just screams out for intensive testing by future users.
I'm a potential future buyer and user if this camera suits my needs.

I would place an order for this camera if I could get my hands on one
to test and tinker. I don't think this is an unreasonable request.
The way things seem to be set up is you pay $1K, believe, and one day
your camera will come. This is what I have the problem with Getken.

I intend to use this camera for Feature Drama work. I see it sitting somewhere between 35mm 3 perf and Super 16 or Film Rec 8 bit tape.
Cost advantages over film are obvious and the oportunity to shoot a
2.35-40 to1 aspect ratio on such a cheap 4k/2k format is attractive.
I don't see it replacing 35mm Film anytime soon (that'll start a fight)
but Super 16 & Film Rec 8 bit tape could be in trouble depending on
how this camera images.

How the camera and software behave when Log or RGB data is
converted to Lin and rounded off to 422 video colors will be important to those who have more of a HD TV requirement. Good results can be had
with very expensive equipment, but how will the Red system cope with this?

Red will probably have it's own particular "look". So for my Feature Drama
work I'd like to feed 2k test Data from Red into a variety of linear and non linear grading systems, Truelight & Da vinchi,Lustre,Nucoder,Scratch and
play with the stuff. Do burn tests to 35mm intermediate and high speed
camera stocks in an effort introduce film grain to Data files. Test test test.

Then if the camera suits my needs and if the camera suits your needs,
then and only then Getken should you put all the money down for your
Red Kit.

Happy shootin,______________________Mezmo

[Finner]

I don't see it replacing 35mm Film anytime soon (that'll start a fight)
but Super 16 & Film Rec 8 bit tape could be in trouble depending on
how this camera images.



Not a fight from me just a comment on what I have seen.

TV dramas that traditionally shot in 16mm have changed to HD cameras and even some 35mm TV shows have made the switch, some even partway through the run of the show (season one 35mm season 2 HD). A good DOP can make this change over seamless. This having happened and even some large budget feature films being shot HD. I think there is a good chance of 4k being abble to take a big chunk out of 35mm work.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Mezmo makes some valid points about genuine due diligence in selecting a camera system / format for shooting a serious piece of work. I do not plan to run out to shoot a feature the first day I get my RedOne, that would be extremely risky. Testing is important, that's a given.

I do not share the opinion that buying the RedOne before all its parameters have been exhaustively tested is poor judgement. If this was a $100K plus system it might require a different approach. If the folks on the Red Team didn't have any street cred prior to this project it would be a different story. If I didn't already have experience manipulating RAW color data with stills and understanding its power I might be more worried about the results I can reasonably expect.

IMHO being a RedOne early adopter is a calculated risk with a huge upside.

[Ziggy Uszkurat]

Well, with reservation 861, we're gonna know if the camera has problems way before we take delivery -- so yes it's a risk but I'm betting it will pay off for early adopters. I think that any venture like this has potential problems, but Red seems to have a stunningly competent and expert team. They are also backed by the considerable resources of Jim. I suppose the final reason to put our deposits where our faith is, is that the Red team has made some very public statements of what it expects to achieve within a demanding time schedule. I don't think failure is an option for a group of people who have so much riding on this venture.

So, nothing wrong with healthly scepticism, but I'm kind of proud to be able to say I have faith in this project, the people behind it, and more importantly the vision to create a camera that may very well step change the industry.

Ziggx

[Phil Becque]

IMHO being a RedOne early adopter is a calculated risk with a huge upside.

The bottom line - Blair you are absolutely right, that's exactly the way I see it.

And if it comes off like we all hope it will - then I for one will be riding the crest of that upside!!

What an opportunity?

Best regards, Phil

[Sam Druckerman]

Hi Getken,
My concern is that Red camera may not be the right camera
for many early adopters who put all the money down early on a Red
package before the camera has been properly tested.
Blind faith and belief don't appeal to me but seem to be O.K for
many potential Red buyers. Happy shootin,______________________Mezmo

I'm sorry, but this kind of passive aggressive statement really gets my back up.

Mezmo, I am an early adapter and I find your comments to be rude and insulting.

Your insults are veiled in "concern" for us early adapters who according to your comments must Not be as wise or as intelligent as you, for if we were... we never would have made the grave mistake of placing an order on a Red camera.


Hi Jim and the Red Army,(Mao had plenty of faithfull followers)
Please cut the hype Jim as the camera gets ready to make it's debut
on the world stage. Many thanks______________________________Mezmo
P.S. Red Army please back off and let Jim answer.


And I don't appreciate you insulting Jim Jannard either! You see, Jim happens to be a personal hero of mine, and when you insult him, it makes me angry.... so I would like it if you would stop.

**********

MODERATORS!

Sorry to go of topic.... but I wonder if we had a "real names only" policy here, we couldn't reduce many of the insulting comments being made by the anonymous.

[Brook Willard]

Gentlemen...

[Phil Becque]

Sam - my friend - I think Mezmo is "batting for the other side" in more ways than one. It's all typical marketing FUD ( Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) - I wouldn't rise to it.

Mezmo is here to try and upset things in a "don't you think you are all making a terrible mistake" kind of way "wouldn't it more sensible to wait and see like the sensible person I am" - the only way you can rationalize mezmo's statements are from the point of view that whoever mezmo represents can get hurt by the big RED ONE being very successful.

I have to say I have my doubts about the veracity of that 'fishy' person as well - "I didn't get a reservation number" really? I did.

They are scared aren't they?

[Sam Druckerman]

Sam - my friend - I think Mezmo is "batting for the other side" in more ways than one. It's all typical marketing FUD ( Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) - I wouldn't rise to it.

Agreed. I do know better, but sometimes.......



They are scared aren't they?

LOL As they should be.

[Finner]

Like it has been mentioned a bunch the anouncement of the early reservations getting a better package did not come until after the deadline so there was no hype in that at all, which Jim could have used it to add a bunch of hype if it had been done before the deadline. So I respect Jim a bunch for that and if you can't see that it was not done for hype you are clueless.

[Mike the beginner]

I really don't know what all the fuss is about? If Mezmo wants to wait let him wait. If Mezmo thinks he will get a better camera if he waits then he might well be right. Jim will not stop making improvements.

Jim is working damn hard to bring us an incredible camera at an incredible price and delivered to us sometime in the late spring to summer. He is still improving the specs as we chat about it right now. So yes Mezmo the camera will improve when you get round to buying one if you ever do!

It will improve each year probably and perhaps be preceded by red two.

But jim and red are unlike any other camera company. Red will never let the early believers down full stop.

So Mezmo while you hang around waiting.........All the early believers will be drooling and enjoying their great new tool. Sometimes it is wise to be in early at the start of something big. The wise one's will prove to have been the early ones this time round. Trust in red...... Trust in Jim

Mike the beginner

[Brook Willard]

Watch it, guys; you're getting quite close to the line. We're all friends here, even if our opinions vary. Let's put a stop to it now before I have to do this whole thing.

[Paul Hazlett]

You could proably take them to court for that for not disclosing that little
tibit of info that might have saved you 22k

[mezmo]

Hi Red Army,
Thanks for all the great posts, you guys have a great passion for this
camera and Indie Film. I've no intention of diverting you from your mission.
I have a crack at Jim because he asks me to believe. Perhaps it's
the years I spent in a strict church boarding school but anyone who
asks me to believe really gets my back up.
This is a camera not a new detergent or a religion that's gunna change
my life. I dont need to believe, I just need to test.
Here's an idea.

All you guys have already put out $1K US for this camera as deposit.
This is enough money to cover the shipping/insurance/rental of some Red One Demo models to those of us who are hooked on testing like me.
We could asess the camera over a one or two week period to see if
the thing meets our needs, Log or Linear workflow.
If we go on and purchase the camera the $1K US outlay would be
refunded. If the cameras is not for us, Red keeps the loot.
I think this would be of benefit to both Red and it's customers.

I'd hate to see Red suffer any adverse publicity because some people
don't understand what they are buying or are unhappy with results
in various post workflows. Red is a great idea and I want to see it prosper.

A great Digital Film setup for me would be the Arri D20/Viper or other as a
main unit camera with two Reds as 2nd and 3rd cameras.All are Log boxes.
I see the Red camera as the Thomas the Tank Engine of Digital Film cameras (this is not an insult) Its the little camera that could.
On some days it can pull a heavy load (be main camera) on others it can
back up a bigger system.
It's a codec based DFilm camera,cheap and cheerful. I dont think anyone
at Arri,Thompson,and Panavision give a toss. And Sony and Panasonic are
not really in the Cmos area yet. It'll happen.
Mezmo doesn't work for any of these guys, he makes their products work
for him.
Mezmo is a Content Producer and Film/Digital D.P.
He is not the evil one.

Love___________________________________ Mezmo

[Finner]

mezmo

I think a lot of people here are on the same page as you are as far as wanting more tests and information on the camera. I sure wouldn't want to have to spend $1,000 just to test a camera and try and make a decision and have to give away that $1,000 if I did not want it. I think a lot of us are just waiting for the camera to be tested by independent DP's and users that get the camera early to see how it stacks up. Red gave us the option to get your money back for any reason so if you are a high number you would be totally safe as all the testing is done for us by fellow pro's. When the camera comes out there are DP's excited to do full testing so personally I don't see a risk only an option to buy a winner.

[Joel Kaye]

I'd hate to see Red suffer any adverse publicity because some people don't understand what they are buying or are unhappy with results
in various post workflows.

If you're not on the list now then you're not going to be able to buy one for a year probably - so I wouldn't lose too much sleep about post issues just yet. We'll figure everything out and post it here for you by the time you'll be able to buy one. :-)

(Every other HD camera already has gone through much post confusion. It's easy to anticipate some people will have trouble and others will love it. No biggie - here it comes...get ready... see you told us so. )

[Phil Becque]

Hi Red Army,
Thanks for all the great posts, you guys have a great passion for this
camera and Indie Film. I've no intention of diverting you from your mission.

I dont think anyone at Arri,Thompson,and Panavision give a toss.
And Sony and Panasonic are not really in the Cmos area yet. It'll happen.
Mezmo doesn't work for any of these guys, he makes their products work
for him. Mezmo is a Content Producer and Film/Digital D.P.
He is not the evil one.

Love___________________________________ Mezmo

Hi Mezmo,

Sorry mate - it looks like I was all wrong about you and I do apologise.

Have you seen the Fankie in Action post !! That's fantastic!!

Now I know I'm going to have problems once I get my camera. And I'm really looking forward to them!!

All the best, Phil

BTW, the drinks are on me at the Hoff House if you are going to be at NAB on Tuesday evening around 6-30pm

http://www.hofbrauhauslasvegas.com/location/index.php

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Subtext of Mezmo's posts: we're all gaga over a camera that has never been tested so we're not too bright. No wonder we've been on the edge of a flame up.

The only real issue in all this is timing. It is too early in the development cycle for the Redheads to be this gung ho, fair enough. It is also too early for Mezmo to expect prototypes to be available for a complete test suite. Let's not forget that David Stump was allowed to check out a test bed proto which was damn impressive.

In closing, the early adopters / reservation holders have taken a leap of faith which they hope will lead to a special experience and a competitive advantage.

In the immortal words of Jimi - "I'm the one that's got to die when its time for me to die, so let me live my life, the way I want to"

[Damien Molineaux]

...
It's a codec based DFilm camera,cheap and cheerful. I dont think anyone
at Arri,Thompson,and Panavision give a toss. And Sony and Panasonic are
not really in the Cmos area yet. It'll happen.
...

Actually, isn't the latest offering from Sony (in the below 10K range), the V1, a CMOS camera?! Apparently, early tests have resulted in great images, considered largely superior to the Z1. In my humble opinion, this is the best option below 10K, we all know what the best option is (will be) in the over 10K segment.

Cheers,
Damien

[Jeff Kilgroe]

earthling,

The V1 is CMOS based, and not only that, but it's the first camcorder to hit the market using a 3-chip CMOS sensor block with pixel shifting. Sony hasn't said what the actual resolution of their CMOS sensors in the V1 are, but looking at the number of advertised along with the "effective" pixels, I'm betting they're 1280x1080 effective, with a horizontal green shift to make up the extra horizontal luma info.

DOF is nearly non-existant on the V1 due to it's small sensor size (about 1/3.9") and its low-light performance is supposedly not as good as teh FX1/Z1. But the color looks great and low noise too. Overall it looks to be a nice upgrade from the FX1.

Personally, I still think in the sub $10K market the best camera is still the HVX200. It may only be a predominantly 720p camera, but with its tapeless workflow, variable frame rates and awesome color reproduction it can't be beat and 4:2:2 non-GOP to boot.

[Damien Molineaux]

Jeff,

I agree, I like the HVX, but workflow wise, it depends what you're shooting, at least for documentaries, it's not viable, unless you have a big budget. I've been shooting quite a lot with it lately, but tapeless workflow, although that's where we're going, doesn't do it for me. I use a FS-100, works great, but it's a hassle, noisy as hell, eats batteries very fast, the small 4 pin firewire plug on the HVX is weak, scares me. Now if we had 32 GB P2 cards, at a decent price point, yeah then I would take an HVX for our next doc in Colombia, but for now, we'll stick to the Z1, unless we go with a Z1.

Side note, the V1 is also Sony's entry, at least in their sub 10K cameras, into the progressive arena.

2nd side note, about 720p, it is hardly used in Europe, and I see no future for it. The reason being when you down rez to 576 lines (PAL) you can lose sharpness, verses when you're coming form 1080, at nearly twice the resolution, the images are sweet.

Cheers,
Damien

[Ken Corben]

Earthling,

You're scaring me. Since I won't be RED capable in time, we're ramping up for a doc shoot with several HVX cameras with firestore drives based on the ease of 720p workflow in FCP with the sweet firewire HD1200A panasonic vtr.

Have you seen PAL transfers from 720p?
Not good enough for SD broadcast?

Jeez - I'll need to take this to the post house and see for myself. Thanks for bringing it up since global sales are critical to financial success.

Cheers,

Sharky

[mezmo]

Hi Phil @ Tranquil Light.
Thanks for the offer of a booze-up, undecided about NAB this year
and I've no problems with anything said about mezmo on this thread.
Since my last post two Red camera bodies have been offered to me
for testing, one reasonably early on the delivery schedule. So mezmo
will be able to feed his testing habit if all goes well.

I'll also try and hook in a D20,Viper and possibly a Genisis on the pretext
that Red would make a great complimentry camera to the big guys.
For handheld, rigs, Stedicam, and Limpet mounted to fast moving cars
Red would be a great low cost 2nd/3rd Unit back-up cam.
Panavision use the arri 2c,3 and 435 for this kind of work in filmland.
Young guys buying into Red could also offer up their gear on a bigger
film for this kind of work and make some extra bucks on the side.

Going off topic a little here but I'll just go into the testing plan.
All digital footage would end up on Sony SR Log tape. My Macpro quad
should handle the Red processing. At a local post house it would pass thru a Truelight LUT box and into a 2k Davinchi, graded and then sent out to
a Barco for projection onto the big screen.

This should a give us good look at how all cameras behave together
and if Reds footage can be intercut with any of the big guys cameras.
Or if in fact it's better, I don't think Red will be disadvantaged by
this given it's obvious price advantage. I'll also try and drag in some famous old D.P,s (much beer needed) and get them to put in their 2 cents
worth.
At the same time I'll output a 422 linear version of the digital footage using
the Truelight /Davinchi colorspace conversion so we can compare it to
the Redcine processing from Log to Lin for HD TV work.

This may all seem daunting to some guys buying the Red to shoot doco's
and low budg indie stuff but it's an option you have with Red. Its a Log Box
just like the big end cameras and should be able to play in the same pool.

I'll keep you posted phil,_________________________Mezmo

[Damien Molineaux]

Earthling,

You're scaring me. Since I won't be RED capable in time, we're ramping up for a doc shoot with several HVX cameras with firestore drives based on the ease of 720p workflow in FCP with the sweet firewire HD1200A panasonic vtr.

Have you seen PAL transfers from 720p?
Not good enough for SD broadcast?

Jeez - I'll need to take this to the post house and see for myself. Thanks for bringing it up since global sales are critical to financial success.

Cheers,

Sharky

No, I must admit this is from a friend of mine responsible for post-production in one of the bigger production houses here. He's got a lot of work, with Viper footage among other things. I trust him regarding this, he's seen footage from very many sources. I've stuck to 1080i50 (with a Z1) and 1080p25 with a HVX. I would definitly do a comparison before setting off on a large project with a HVX.

As to SD broadcast, I've seen very crapy images broadcast. I hate to admit it, but I even had some images I shot with a HVX in DV mode broadcast, they looked good though. I had just received the FS-100 and no time set up properly so shot in DV. I'm pretty sure however that SD PAL originated in 1080 will look bettern than from 720.

Also, 1080 footage will also have a longer life span, it seems like TVs in europe are planning to air HD mostly in 1080 from what I've heard.

Keep us informed.

Cheers,
Damien

[Ken Corben]

The majority of HD monitors in the US are 720P if one reads the fine print. Any changes in the EU market as in true 1080 monitors?