The best $5,750 you can spend [updated]

[Brook Willard]

Hey folks,

For the past few weeks, I've been the DIT on a pilot J. Michael Muro was shooting [we wrapped last night]. A few weeks ago, Jarred and Keslow Camera arranged for RED to send us Jarred's own personal MX camera to our location days in Chicago for some key night exteriors.

Now over the past few years, I've spent way more than my fair share of days shooting with the RED ONE. I also spend a lot of time [more than might be suggested by how RED-centric I am online] working as a DIT for traditional HD camera systems.

Shooting with the new MX sensor in Chicago impressed me massively. I was hoping for a camera with more dynamic range and a lower noise floor and RED has delivered. The night exterior city footage from Jarred's preproduction firmware MX camera looked better at T4 than the RED ONE M sensor looked at T2.2. Now don't take that as me saying it's "X" stops more sensitive or "X" times better, but for this particular setup [overlooking the river], it was terrific. We ended up shooting the shot at T2.2 on the MX anyways... just to expose to the right as much as possible.

http://homepage.mac.com/brookwillard/mx1.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/brookwillard/mx2.jpg

Those of you that went to RED DAY at RED Studios Hollywood would've seen a few of the shots from our project. I wasn't at RSH myself [was teaching the Data Handling training for local 600 in NY], but I'm told that [among others], a shot of Emmy Rossum on the phone was played. I want to give a little information about that particular shot as well.

http://homepage.mac.com/brookwillard/mx3.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/brookwillard/mx4.jpg

It was our last shot before switching to night mode, so the whole conversation happens at sunset. The shot starts front-lit, follows Emmy around a patch of hot sky [and snow...] before landing with the sun setting behind her head. There was no fill light, only a ball as an eye light. Those that saw the shot know what they need to know, but to those that didn't, the entire sky [save the sun itself] was not clipped, but there was enough information left in Emmy's face to bring it up without introducing unacceptable noise. It's pretty cool.

Just as with the last example, don't take this the wrong way. It doesn't mean you don't need fill light, it doesn't mean you can expose for the sun and let the rest fall into place, etcetera. But for this particular shot, the exposure that we frankly guessed on seemed to do the trick.

When I'm looking at the MX, I don't think of it as a tool that's going to change the way we shoot movies. I'm not approaching it as something that will stop us from lighting or let us see in the dark - that's just not what it's about to me. To me it's about making what we already do just that much better. We're always going to light, we're always going to give our assistants a decent stop, etcetera. Yes, there are situations where you will be able to get a shot with this camera that you couldn't get with the M sensor... just as there are shots that play at a T1.3 instead of T2.8. There are entire productions that the sensor's sensitivity will enable. But for most productions, a stop or two of dynamic range won't reinvent the wheel.

No matter what tool one uses, there is always a solution. I've not kept my thoughts on certain elements of the RED ONE a secret over the years. Things like sensitivity, ergonomics, etcetera. But like everything else, there is a solution. And for the past two and a half years we've all been shooting with the camera and having a blast. Camera doesn't balance on your shoulder? Invent a way to make it balance. Camera looks noisy if you light it like 500T? Find a new way to light it to communicate your intended look through the scope of what the camera can see. Camera takes 90 seconds to power up? Find a way to keep it running all day. Solving problems is what we do.

So with that in mind, briefly try not to look at cameras in terms of "best" or "worst" - something that many people get a little too caught up on. Every system has pros and cons and every system can have solutions built for its problems. Nobody asks DPs whether they're "converting" over to chromes when they shoot a movie on reversal... why should we talk about "converting" to RED after shooting a movie digitally?

Panavision rocks. Arri rocks. Canon rocks. Sony rocks. Grass Valley rocks. Photosonics rocks. Vision Research rocks. Moviecam rocks. Aaton rocks. RED rocks.

So yeah, the MX is better than the M. Way better. It has a lot more dynamic range and a lower noise floor. Is it "better" than the F35? Does it have more DR? I dunno. I'm not one for OMG BEST CAMERA EVER type statements.

The MX has a few more stops of measurable DR than the M. It also has a lower noise floor, meaning that more stops are usable at lower light levels.

But if we were already lighting for the M sensor and fitting our world into the limitations of that sensor's world, doesn't that just steal all its thunder? Sure, it might mean we see a little further into the highlights or shadows... or maybe that we see a little more of that sunset than we used to... but does that really change anything? If you treat the MX exactly the same way as you treat the M, why upgrade? A lot of people have been asking themselves this question. I don't need the extra dynamic range or sensitivity, I'm happy with the M.

So what's the big deal about this sensor? I didn't really know until last night when I got to spend some time with a production MX camera in a situation I'm familiar with. Shooting off of a roof in Chicago at night or shooting unlit into a sunset are special situations that require special attention. But we have all been in hundreds of night exteriors and day interiors and know what to expect from them. Using the MX camera in a night exterior alongside a few M cameras really made the difference clear to me for the first time.

The MX sensor handles color in a way that I've never seen before with a digital camera. It's miles beyond that the M sensor and RedSpace are capable of. Highlights [brake lights, street lights, etc] maintain their color without pushing to white in a way that the M sensor never did. Shadows maintain color accuracy and saturation [and resolution, due to the noise characteristics] in ways that really impressed me. The subtle shifts of color, light and shadow I was seeing in our talent's faces was fabulous. Putting the T3.5 MX footage up against the T2.6 M footage was almost comical. Like any new tool or film stock, you will need to light differently with this sensor, both in terms of value and character.

RED has delivered something tremendously impressive here. If you own a RED ONE, you would be absolutely crazy not to upgrade. I haven't had enough time with the MX to form real, balanced opinions and experiences... but my initial impression is immensely positive.

I'll be posting more direct experience and footage here very soon. Stay tuned.

[Brook Willard]

http://homepage.mac.com/brookwillard/mxt.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/brookwillard/mxd.jpg


Here are the links to the uncompressed TIFFs. Please only download them once... I only have so much bandwidth. It's hosted on my personal website, so if I run out of bandwidth... I become harder to find for the rest of February!

Tungsten (http://brookwillard.com/bestfolderever/mxt.tif) and daylight. (http://brookwillard.com/bestfolderever/mxd.tif)

Here's the process:

I lit the charts to F8 at 500 ASA. They were just a touch hotter/specular on the left - less than a tenth of a stop variation in incident. The chart is a Gamma & Density 709 chart.

The lens is an Optimo 28-76mm at 76mm.

I exposed from T2.8 [not WFO on the lens] to T22 on the lens. When I got to T22, I added ND [Format, including IR .9 and 1.2] until I had the 1.2 and .9 stacked in the camera. I then started adding wire to the light until I ran out [2 stops on the Tungsten light, 3 stops on the HMI]. I finally held in the .3 and .6 [Format non IR] in front of the matte box.

The M camera [Evin Grant's 199 - thanks, Evin!] is running the release build 21. The MX camera is running the release build of 30.

Since build 96 of RCX doesn't have 64 ASA as an option, I set the ASA to 80 and the FLUT™ to -.3 for the T2.8/+3 exposures. Everything else I balanced using ASA [125, 250, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000] in full stop increments. After that, I added FLUT™ in full stop increments. When I maxed out FLUT™ [8], I maxed the ASA to 6400 and processed the remaining images as such.

The M footage was processed RedSpace/RedSpace, the MX footage using RedGamma/RedColor. I changed no settings [sharpness, NR, etc.] beyond what I've discussed above.

I do not know if this is the best way to process MX footage. I haven't had time to experiment enough with footage yet to really understand the relationship between ASA and FLUT with the new sensor. I am looking forward to more clarification on the subject as I experiment.

The TIFFs are 100% crop uncompressed of the grey scale on the chart. It is a just-left-of-center cut from the sensor. I will try to do full frame [scaled] charts soon.

[Brook Willard]

http://brookwillard.com/bestfolderever/chris.jpg
This is a 70% quality "save for web" JPEG from Photoshop.

Here's a 640x360 ProRes LT file of that clip. (http://brookwillard.com/bestfolderever/mx.mov)

Please download sparingly.

I've purposefully selected a crap shot in a crap situation to show what it can pull out. When you actually take some time with this footage, it's a fabulous tool. I've been shooting between 1,000 and 1,600 ASA for several days with brilliant results that I'd be happy to put on TV.

[Steve Freebairn]

Brook is right, for those that haven't gotten a chance to see footage or better yet, play with a M-X camera, you're in for a serious, serious treat.

[Jarred Land]

Thanks Brook for doing what you do best on this shoot.... from what we have seen the images look incredible.

[Jannard]

Thanks Brook for doing what you do best on this shoot.... from what we have seen the images look incredible.

Brook... thanks for your observations. Everyone here knows you speak your mind both ways so you carry a lot of credibility. You are not alone in your thoughts.

Jim

[JanneJansson]

The chance to upgrade the R1 with the latest sensor tech will make it survive longer as a trusty tool. R1 is a solid camera and a pleasure to work with. I feel safe that it always will do a great job and that my clients will be happy, and in the end of the day bring in some $. My R1 had a near-death-experience the other day, but survived with just broken LCD. The R1 have been very good for me as a small entrepreneur. A big leap of faith for me when I spent a year of salary from a steady job and going freelance with just a R1. When#4744 comes up for MX upgrade I'll be glad :emote_hippie:

Best

[Sanjin Jukic]

Brook,

thanks for a great M-X report.

Waiting for footage...

[Brook Willard]

Thanks to Jarred and Jim for helping us out on Shameless - it really made a huge impression on everybody involved.

I'll post some footage/stills tomorrow, I'm a bit exhausted tonight. What sort of stuff do you guys want to see?

[Sanjin Jukic]

What sort of stuff do you guys want to see?

More different shots, available light, talent's skin tones, sunset colors and flares, car lights, skin tones at night car drive, street lights, neon, night sky, moon light, etc,...

[Tanner Stauss]

I'd love to see the rooftop stuff, as well as something regarding the well kept color in the shadows you were talking about.

[Ruben Appeltans]

I would love to see some comparison shots between the M and the MX. Shots that are almost the same so we can really see the difference ourselves instead of only seeing how kick-ass the mx is (though I am already sure it is).
We will be sending in our RED ONE for upgrade next week. Wiii, we're so excited. If you could also post some R3D's that would be even cooler. To see what we can pull out of them.

Thanks.

[Milan Nikolic]

Brook you just changed my mind about upgrading R1.

[Rainer Fritz]

brook... will be there any chance to get a small example sequence as a DCP ? It would be great to see the footage on the big screen....

[Curran Giddens]

What sort of stuff do you guys want to see?

How about a closeup of Emmy's face. She is gorgeous... :drool5:

Like from this shot for those that didn't get to see it:


Those that saw the shot know what they need to know, but to those that didn't, the entire sky [save the sun itself] was not clipped, but there was enough information left in Emmy's face to bring it up without introducing unacceptable noise. It's pretty cool.

[C.H.Haskell]

Great news Brook..thanks for sharing and look forward to more. I will watch out for this material at the next RED day. Cheers.

[Brook Willard]

Naturally, I cannot upload any footage from the pilot. Until the show airs, the only way to see that knowledge will be at RED events [if they choose to show that footage, of course].

I have a bit of footage that I can show, but my only Intel machine here is a laptop and rendering anything is pretty excruciating. I'll see what I can do, but it's more likely that I'll put footage through my on-set system on my wrap day on Monday.

[Steve Das]

Hey folks,

The MX sensor handles color in a way that I've never seen before with a digital camera. It's miles beyond that the M sensor and RedSpace are capable of. Highlights [brake lights, street lights, etc] maintain their color without pushing to white in a way that the M sensor never did...........

Like any new tool or film stock, you will need to light differently with this sensor, both in terms of value and character.



Very detailed useful report :emote_popcorn: could you elaborate on lighting different
comment in terms of value and color...?

[Rick Darge]

Brook, thanks for posting this. Your review means a lot. Like everyone else, I would love to see some before/after shots comparing the M and the MX. I went to Red day and loved what I saw but it was difficult for my eye to immediately distinguish the differences. It would be cool to see a simple before/after if anyone out there is willing. What number are we up to in upgrade orders? Last I heard DigitalFX was sending theirs in.

[Tim Whitcomb]

Thanks Brook, I was already going to upgrade after Mark P's affirmations... actually way back when Croneweth made similar declarations...

this is the first time I've ever wished that I did NOT have a rental on my Red One this week... :( cant wait!

[M Most]

Brook, thanks for posting this. Your review means a lot. Like everyone else, I would love to see some before/after shots comparing the M and the MX.

The differences are most obvious in shots done side by side with both M and M/X cameras. As Brook explained, the primary differences are in noise (the most significant difference, IMHO) and in usable dynamic range (also related to noise, which is why I consider the noise improvement the single most significant factor). There were a few scenes done in the "Shameless" pilot that involved night exteriors that were shot with both cameras. That's where the differences are very, very clear. In terms of "making obsolescence obsolete," I would have to say that to a large extent, the M/X is so clearly better than the M that it will ultimately make the original M obsolete for most users. It is indeed difficult to go back to the M full time after using the M/X, something Jimmy quickly discovered.

Disclaimer: I've seen the "Shameless" footage through my connection with Next Element Studios in Burbank, where the show is being posted (as was "Southland"). The footage was observed both using Red's tools (Redcine-X in this case) and a special one-off beta build of Baselight (which will be used for the final finishing). Interestingly (and properly), using the same basic settings in both Redcine-X and the Baselight build produced identical results, as it should.

[Brook Willard]

I'll have direct DR/noise comparisons for the M and MX sensors later today. It'll be chart stuff, but just a little.

I have some "walk around" footage of a very colorful Staples Center at various exposures. I'll put something together from that.

I have some other bits and pieces of footage that I'll be able to post relatively soon.

[Rick Darge]

Thanks Brook, we all know you're busy and this means a lot. I'm stoked to see more MX footage!

[Sean Rawls]

Ooo I'm excited to get some MX sensors up here in Portland. Sorry we're keeping your camera busy Tim!

[Cüneyt Kaya]

hi,
one question relating to shooting with MX.

with the M i usually set the cam to 320 ASA, WB to 5000 and then work everything as good as i can towards these numbers,
at day, i use some ND Filters, which works great, at night i use daylight lighting with lil filtering (1/4 CTO)...this worked pretty good for me.

How about the MX?
at daylight?--are you just setting down the ASA to 100 or are you now using heavy ND Filtering...(the sensor should be around 800 ASA asfaik)
at night/tungsten: use a 80 c filter like with the M Sensor or tungsten light and setting the cam to 3200 is enough.

better: What is the native Colortemperature of the mx sensor, is it also 5000 kelvin?
and is it like: it doesnt make a difference anymore what the native colortemp of the sensor is, so just dial in 3200 and you are good or are you using the same principles like with the M Sensor ( using 80 C or daylight lights for night shootings?)

hope you can understand what i try to ask :)

[Ivan G]

I'm caught in between upgrading to the EPIC or MX sensor? What do some users have in mind? I know the Epic hasn't been released and we don't know as much as we do such as the Red.

-Lighter
-more FPS
-5k

Just trying to balance it out...

[Jannard]

I'm caught in between upgrading to the EPIC or MX sensor? What do some users have in mind? I know the Epic hasn't been released and we don't know as much as we do such as the Red.

-Lighter
-more FPS
-5k

Just trying to balance it out...

If it is a financial decision, the question is whether or not you can make $5K more with your R1 M-X camera before you can get your hands on an EPIC. If you can (or don't care about the money- only the image)... then upgrade.

Jim

[Ivan G]

Yes definitely finances. Whats the gap between the upgrade and Epic?

[Troy Smith]

We are def going to upgrade our red ones, based on the reset time alone, but out of curiosity i'd luv to see these chart tests your doing brook with the m and mx debayered the same, both with flut and redcolor, not with the m using the old redspace etc.

Thanks for your time posting mx info brook!

[Rich Schaefer]

If it is a financial decision, the question is whether or not you can make $5K more with your R1 M-X camera before you can get your hands on an EPIC. If you can (or don't care about the money- only the image)... then upgrade.

Jim

It also depends if you plan to keep your R1x and add an Epic to your business.

[Brook Willard]

Did chart tests with the cameras - uncompressed TIFFs are uploading now. JPEG previews posted at the head of the thread.

[Jim Hoffman]

Hey Brook - when you can I'd love to see those night shots of my home town. I have some I'd love to compare them to.

Thanks for the info.

[Justin O'Neill]

Holly cow, brilliant visual guide to the noise difference, Brook. This really makes it clear what an improvement Mysterium-X is.

[Brook Willard]

Don't get too excited yet, guys... the TIFFs will be a while. Gotta remember the FTP password.

Hoffman [change it to your real name!], I won't be able to upload those city shots because they belong to John Wells Productions/Warner Brothers/Showtime.

I do have some personal tests overlooking Chicago from the same vantage point, but since it was with Jarred's camera and preproduction firmware, I do not want to post them and give people the wrong idea.

[Sarah C.]

*Gasp!*
Very nice...
~s

[Brook Willard]

I think something happened with the -4 MX Tungsten frame, I'll redo it later tonight or tomorrow.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Did chart tests with the cameras - uncompressed TIFFs are uploading now. JPEG previews posted at the head of the thread.

Thanks for this amazing test Brook!

The results are really unbelievable. I was hoping for a dynamic range of somewhere close to 11 stops but what i am seeing is more like 13!!!!!

[Ivan G]

It also depends if you plan to keep your R1x and add an Epic to your business.

So if you had one option, what would it be?

[Rich Schaefer]

Great test Brook!

At first I was shocked. once I took a close look at the details, it is about what I expected and about what Red has been saying about performance.

The blacks are massively cleaner!

[Brook Willard]

Trust me guys, forget about the JPEGs. I found the frame I goofed on - I'm fixing it now.

I will need mirrors for these files, I don't know how long my bandwidth will last with 120MB files.

[Jannard]

There is also a known calibration error on the M-X sensor used for this test. The results will only get better.

Jim

[Brook Willard]

It is interesting to see how mature the image processing for the M sensor has become. Noisy in comparison, sure... but very consistent.

[Rich Schaefer]

So if you had one option, what would it be?

If I were to have just one, It would be an Epic. I think in both the short term and the long it will command more money and respect amongst both both DPs and producers therefore having a better ROI (return on investment)! But it also very much depends on your location and type of work you do. I live near LA and my perspective is mid-budget commercials... I have 2 Reds now and I plan to have at least 3-5 in some form.

[Brook Willard]

I have uploaded the TIFFs and put their links in the appropriate post. Enjoy!

I can't wait to see the MX processing mature. As you can see from the pictures, the MX shifts color in deep underexposure when processed as I did. It also loses contrast, turning white instead of dark [as you might expect]. That's either a sensor calibration issue or [more likely considering how dramatic the shift is] a processing issue. I mean, who's really ever going to process something at 6,400/FLUT 8? We're looking at modes that aren't really meant for human consumption. As such, don't look at the dramatic underexposures in terms of how they appear aesthetically when compared to the M stills... look at them in terms of the low noise and maintained detail.

Color and contrast can be fixed... but noise character and detail are indicative of what we're really dealing with here.

[Rich Schaefer]

What's most striking is that the blacks have no noise!

Jim HTF did you make this happen? Amazing S.

[PatC]

Thank you Brook for this awesome post.

[Rick Darge]

Most impressive. However, what is the purple tinting going on, beg. at -4 stops and +2 & +3 stops on the MX in the daytime TIFF?

[Rick Darge]

It's pretty amazing to see how the MX handles the noise. The picture fades out like a fog rather than a hail of colored snow.

[Jannard]

Most impressive. However, what is the purple tinting going on, beg. at -4 stops and +2 & +3 stops on the MX in the daytime TIFF?

Camera calibration error... as I said.

Jim

[Rick Darge]

Cool. Another question I had that wasn't answered on Red Day because I forgot to ask it was, how does the Red One MX sensor compare to the Epic-X sensor other than 5k and better compression. Will we expect the same noise floor/ISO range or a bit better?

[Jannard]

Cool. Another question I had that wasn't answered on Red Day because I forgot to ask it was, how does the Red One MX sensor compare to the Epic-X sensor other than 5k and better compression. Will we expect the same noise floor/ISO range or a bit better?

They are exactly the same... it IS the EPIC sensor (M-X) in these R1s. The electronics are the only thing that hold back the R1 from 5K, frame rates and REDCODE numbers.

Whatever improvements we can make (hard to believe) will apply to both EPIC and R1 M-X cameras. The best news is that they can be shot side by side with virtually the same color and latitude.

Jim

[Jannard]

Before anyone panics (too late?) on the calibration error... it only can be seen when stressing the exposure beyond normal limits. The calibration error is very small at normal exposures (can't be seen)... but grows exponentially as you move dramatically either way from center... like over/under tests at the extreme (like Brook's test).

The long and short is... shoot the current build and it looks fantastic. Shoot +3 or -5 and you will see the error. We expect a fix soon, certainly before the side by side tests with the new Arri cameras... :-)

It is easy to see why others are comfortable at 13 stops and we think there is more to be found.

Jim

[JanneJansson]

MX looks really exciting. According to the mxd.tif and the mxt.tif, the new sensor have a totally new noise "look". Noise don't overwhelm the image, but is there very pleasant all way down to extremely under exposed. This opens the possibility to save footage shoot way-way under. The rule of not overexpose RED, seems really true about MX ;)

[Jannard]

MX looks really exciting. According to the mxd.tif and the mxt.tif, the new sensor have a totally new noise "look". Noise don't overwhelm the image, but is there very pleasant all way down to extremely under exposed. This opens the possibility to save footage shoot way-way under. The rule of not overexpose RED, seems really true about MX ;)

Yes... please don't over-expose.

Jim

[Sanjin Jukic]

They are exactly the same... it IS the EPIC sensor (M-X) in these R1s. The electronics are the only thing that hold back the R1 from 5K, frame rates and REDCODE numbers.

Whatever improvements we can make (hard to believe) will apply to both EPIC and R1 M-X cameras. The best news is that they can be shot side by side with virtually the same color and latitude.

Jim

Thanks Jim.

That's exactly I wanted to hear.

Amazing news.

[Evin Grant]

After having some fun with charts tonight I can't wait to get #199 back with her new sensor. I've shot probably the best looking footage of my career using the Red One and the possibilities with this new sensor seem like a whole new ballgame.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Oh my. Look at just the Blue channel in -3. That's going to make keying better. The dreaded blue blobiness is just good ol' fashioned noise.

[Cail Young]

After having some fun with charts tonight I can't wait to get #199 back with her new sensor.

#199, you say... Excellent news.

[Brook Willard]

Before anyone panics (too late?) on the calibration error... it only can be seen when stressing the exposure beyond normal limits. The calibration error is very small at normal exposures (can't be seen)... but grows exponentially as you move dramatically either way from center... like over/under tests at the extreme (like Brook's test).

Everybody should keep Jim's point in mind when looking at that particular bracketing test. As I posted earlier, don't look at the images in terms of aesthetics - aesthetics will come. Look at them in terms of noise character, quantity, detail and dynamic range. The point of this particular test is not to push the sensor to its breaking point in its infancy but to get a window into what RED has delivered.

So yeah, don't panic. I'm not!

[PS - if the colors at extreme underexposures concern anybody, I should note that I have not found it to impact 500-800 ASA developed footage, even in the shadows after aggressive color correction. Don't think of this "calibration error" as the camera not being ready... because it absolutely is.]

[Gavin Greenwalt]

So what you're saying is the hue shift is exclusive to footage pushed in redcine-x. We shouldn't expect our last 3 stops in the shadows to be have a warm shift?

[Jannard]

So what you're saying is the hue shift is exclusive to footage pushed in redcine-x. We shouldn't expect our last 3 stops in the shadows to be have a warm shift?

That's not what I said... shoot a normal exposure and you will be fine, especially in the shadows. Under-expose 5 stops, then try to normalize the image and you may see a slight color shift... until we fix the calibration in a few days. Probably time to move along. This is turning into a non-necessary mess.

Jim

[Tim Whitcomb]

Correction its the best $4500 you can spend after you execute EPIC trade-in...

and Ill go even further and say the BUNDLE is the best $8750 you can spend as you get a RED Rocket card for $3000!

[Brook Willard]

So what you're saying is the hue shift is exclusive to footage pushed in redcine-x. We shouldn't expect our last 3 stops in the shadows to be have a warm shift?

I'm saying that pushing something 5 stops under exposed up to key is very different than letting something 5 stops under play as a shadow... 5 stops under.

If you look at a normalized 500-800 ASA image [even with some creative color work slapped on there], everything falls into place. Shadows don't turn funny colors, they just turn to shadows. It's when you take something that's massively underexposed and push it up as aggressively that I did that you start to see the color shift. The good news is that the color shift will disappear as soon as RED populates the next version of their firmware.

[Rick Darge]

I'm saying that pushing something 5 stops under exposed up to key is very different than letting something 5 stops under play as a shadow... 5 stops under.

If you look at a normalized 500-800 ASA image [even with some creative color work slapped on there], everything falls into place. Shadows don't turn funny colors, they just turn to shadows. It's when you take something that's massively underexposed and push it up as aggressively that I did that you start to see the color shift. The good news is that the color shift will disappear as soon as RED populates the next version of their firmware.

So for people shooting & lighting as they normally would an M sensor, what are the big differences we're going to see with the MX? I currently shoot at 320-500 and there is hardly any noise as we have all become accustomed to. If we were to setup two Reds side by side with proper key/fill & backlight on a subject, both rated at 500, what are the key differences that will immediately become apparent? It's like eating the best cake in the world for 2 years and then the cake makers say, 'Hey I have a new cake that's even better! Way better frosting!' My simple mind is still going crazy over this current cake, how can this new cake be that much better?

[Jannard]

So for people shooting & lighting as they normally would an M sensor, what are the big differences we're going to see with the MX? I currently shoot at 320-500 and there is hardly any noise as we have all become accustomed to. If we were to setup two Reds side by side with proper key/fill & backlight on a subject, both rated at 500, what are the key differences that will immediately become apparent? It's like eating the best cake in the world for 2 years and then the cake makers say, 'Hey I have a new cake that's even better! Way better frosting!' My simple mind is still going crazy over this current cake, how can this new cake be that much better?

Great question... RED Rocket™ does exactly the same thing to REDCINE-X data as no RED Rocket™... just way faster. M-X does the exact same thing as M except with way less noise (and if you can find noise, it looks much better). This gives you a ton more options... both in low light shooting and pulling up detail at ISO 320-500. You may never need the difference... but I can tell you that, like RED Rocket™, once you have shot with M-X... there is no going back. Good news is that there is no requirement to upgrade. The M sensor does a great job. Having the M-X upgrade available to our customers for a reasonable price only seems fair.

Jim

[Sanjin Jukic]

Jim,

thanks for a nice explanation and fair play.

[Troy Smith]

Out of curiosity, would be cool to see these tests both debayered using redcolor rather then debayering the M differently to the mx footage, I know the mx kicks ass, just interested to see how much is the sensor and how much is the new software etc.

[Ryan E. Walters]

Out of curiosity, would be cool to see these tests both debayered using redcolor rather then debayering the M differently to the mx footage, I know the mx kicks ass, just interested to see how much is the sensor and how much is the new software etc.

Great question- I would love to see this as well. Or at least with Redlog and Camera RGB as those were the previous recommended settings. Why was RedSpace chosen?

[Brook Willard]

I chose RedSpace since it's the current release build's recommended shooting option and it's what works with the current SDK. I also wanted to see the M sensor as "I know it," not as it's only been for a few weeks.

I'll try to do a reprocessing of the M footage, but it'll take me a few days knowing me.

[Ryan E. Walters]

That makes sense. Thanks for the answer, and thank you very much for sharing your experience and thoughts on it. If you are able to process the footage again, that would be great. :)

[Dane Brehm]

Brook Your Brilliant!

I guess its worth the lay over from Chicago to Burbank:)

[Shawn Nelson]

Am I misreading this? It seems to me, based on the charts, that we lost a stop of highlights latitude on M-X? It seems that +3 on M doesn't clip while +3 on M-X does clip.

[Jannard]

Am I misreading this? It seems to me, based on the charts, that we lost a stop of highlights latitude on M-X? It seems that +3 on M doesn't clip while +3 on M-X does clip.

Shawn... you just didn't read my posts about calibration.

Jim

[Shawn Nelson]

Shawn... you just didn't read my posts about calibration.

Jim

I saw that the calibration issues were causing the tinting, I didn't realize it was causing M-X to unnecessarily clip. So M-X at +3 should be just as good as Red1 at +3? Basically I'm thinking outdoors, sunny day, shade. If my sky is +3, will the M-X capture the same amount of details in the sky as R1 but yet stops deeper into the shade?

[Gunleik Groven]

I saw that the calibration issues were causing the tinting, I didn't realize it was causing M-X to unnecessarily clip. So M-X at +3 should be just as good as Red1 at +3? Basically I'm thinking outdoors, sunny day, shade. If my sky is +3, will the M-X capture the same amount of details in the sky as R1 but yet stops deeper into the shade?

I sure hope/think so.

Jims bold statements vs head to head shoots with the upcoming Arri cameras indicates that.

[Jannard]

Calibration causes/enables just about everything...

Jim

[Jim Hoffman]

Whatever improvements we can make (hard to believe) will apply to both EPIC and R1 M-X cameras. The best news is that they can be shot side by side with virtually the same color and latitude.

Jim

Great to see. This sways me into wanting to keep my R1s / upgrading the sensor AND using the credit for the Epics.

hmmmmmmmm....

[Brook Willard]

I suppose I should redo this test after the new calibration is out. I didn't realize that a test like this was a little premature at this stage. I'll do a test again when the new firmware is out!

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

It is awfully hard to judge the noise in the -4 and lower M-X images due to the loss of contrast. Is that because the FLUT exposure adjustment that Brook mentioned using for after hitting ISO4000 doesn't operate the same way as the ISO adjustments? Or is this some new sensor feature or calibration problem? I assume adjusting the black level of those images to restore contrast would yield a better comparison to the old M sensor footage which was not processed in that way?

[Jannard]

It is awfully hard to judge the noise in the -4 and lower M-X images due to the loss of contrast. Is that because the FLUT™ exposure adjustment that Brook mentioned using for after hitting ISO4000 doesn't operate the same way as the ISO adjustments? Or is this some new sensor feature or calibration problem? I assume adjusting the black level of those images to restore contrast would yield a better comparison to the old M sensor footage which was not processed in that way?

Let's wait for the new calibration and re-test before drawing any conclusions other than "the new M-X sensor is scary noiseless". How's that sound?

Jim

[Jannard]

The problem with showing tests like these is that everyone tends to guess what they mean. I'd put more stock in what Brook said.

Jim

[Sarah C.]

I didn't realize that a test like this was a little premature at this stage.

I took it as a "first look". I'd also expect that over time the firmware on the M-X will be refined. Red has that sort of history already ...as do many makers of elite computer-controlled products.

~s

[Jannard]

The M-X sensor needs the same calibration refinement as the M sensor did. There are a TON of variables so we are not likely to get it all the 1st try... but better every day. Right now you can see the potential for an extremely quiet sensor with noise that looks perfect when you do find it.

Jim

[Chris Parker]

i couldn't agree more with the ability to see the potential of this quiet sensor. we have shot some tests and are amazed at both how little noise there is at high ISO, and also at the personality of the noise. MUCH less unattractive than original sensor.

Can't wait for the tuneup of the MX. is this done via firmware upgrades Jim?

[Mark L. Pederson]

Our MX cameras just started going out on commercial jobs.

Tomorrow is a fashion editorial with James Lima (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0510666/) - concept artist for AVATAR - for LOVE magazine.

I'd put a Red One with an MX up against ANY digital cinema camera any day.

[Jannard]

i couldn't agree more with the ability to see the potential of this quiet sensor. we have shot some tests and are amazed at both how little noise there is at high ISO, and also at the personality of the noise. MUCH less unattractive than original sensor.

Can't wait for the tuneup of the MX. is this done via firmware upgrades Jim?

Yes... when ready, you'll upgrade camera firmware and then do a Black Shading Calibration.

Jim

[Chris Parker]

actually, we have posted a little video showing a side-by-side comparison of some footage using the old RED sensor and the new MX sensor. we have put it up for free on the home page of:

www.DigitalCinemaLessons.com

This free video is compressed pretty harshly down to flash, so don't judge the new sensor on THAT compression. it does show the dramatic difference between the old and new however, especially if you go to full-screen view mode.

[Chris Parker]

Yes... when ready, you'll upgrade camera firmware and then do a Black Shading Calibration.

Jim

haha. Build 30 is what I'm waiting for. I hear it's the 'new Build 1'.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

haha. Build 30 is what I'm waiting for. I hear it's the 'new Build 1'.

Ahh, Build 1, how I loved thee. 24 Frames at 2:1 and amazingly stable, it was adding features along the way that let a few bugs creep in.

I better stop now before I go all Luddite :banned:

Cheers - #19

[Sunshine Whitton]

This is very exciting... I'm ready for the upgrade! My customers are going to freak! Yeah baby...

[Rich Schaefer]

Great video Chris, thanks for sharing.

[Steven Caesare]

Let's wait for the new calibration and re-test before drawing any conclusions other than "the new M-X sensor is scary noiseless". How's that sound?

Jim

It is damn tempting to add the following to my sig:

"The new M-X sensor is scary noiseless." - J. Jannard


-sc

[Miltos Pilalitos]

actually, we have posted a little video showing a side-by-side comparison of some footage using the old RED sensor and the new MX sensor. we have put it up for free on the home page of:

www.DigitalCinemaLessons.com


Great video Chris, thanks for sharing.

Am i the only one that can't play this video? The site loads fine but the videos never start. I used 3 different browsers both in OSX and Windows and the result is the same.

Is there some other link for this video?

[Ryan E. Walters]

Am i the only one that can't play this video? The site loads fine but the videos never start. I used 3 different browsers both in OSX and Windows and the result is the same.

Is there some other link for this video?

It is working fine for me. Maybe it is limited to only US viewers?
(I'm on OS 10.5.8 and viewing with Safari)

[Sanjin Jukic]

It's working here in Vienna, Austria.

Also it would be nice to download and see at 1080p.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

OK, I managed to finally see it with Internet Explorer (yikes!). It just took ages to download!

I agree with Sanjin, It's very difficult to see any differences at that resolution.

[Chris Parker]

we are transcoding to 720P and will put it up shortly. will let you know when it is up there.

[Chris Parker]

so, we have posted the video on the site as 720P (and we also added some more footage to the end of the video), which allows you to download it and view it full screen in pretty good quality. for those who want to do so, the link is here:

http://www.digitalcinemalessons.com/product_info.php?products_id=317

Our website is setup such that you'll need an account and you'll have to 'buy' the video to download the higher quality version. By 'buy' I mean 25 cents. Here's the description......

In this video footage is imported into Redcine-X Build 96 from both the original RED Mysterium chip and also the new MysteriumX. A look is created and applied to the Mysterium-X footage and then copied over to the Mysterium footage. After all of the clips have been given a look, each is exported to a Pro Res 4444 QT file and placed side by side in FCP for a comparison. Shots compared are each shot at: T-22, T-16, T-11, T-5.6, T-4 Also, a cityscape image shot at 800 ISO is shown at different ISO's to get a look at how far you can push your blacks. This video is a .H254 QT - 720P

[Brook Willard]

Threw a still and video up. I know it'll be tough to tell anything from the way it's presented, but the original footage is pretty awesome. Being able to shoot at a T2.6 and actually get something out of an exposure like this is really something.

[Chris Parker]

will make those new Cooke Panchros even more useful.....

[Christopher Gosch]

where are we in the delivery of MX sensors, Have two that need the upgrade...

[conrad gaunt]

Great question... RED Rocket™™™™ does exactly the same thing to REDCINE-X data as no RED Rocket™™™™... just way faster. M-X does the exact same thing as M except with way less noise (and if you can find noise, it looks much better). This gives you a ton more options... both in low light shooting and pulling up detail at ISO 320-500. You may never need the difference... but I can tell you that, like RED Rocket™™™™, once you have shot with M-X... there is no going back. Good news is that there is no requirement to upgrade. The M sensor does a great job. Having the M-X upgrade available to our customers for a reasonable price only seems fair.

Jim

Jim, I'm having a real hard time deciding what the future is for my R1 (you've not made it easy frankly!)

Could you help a guy (sn:1912) out, and maybe a thousand others and attempt a response to any of the following questions, please, because I feel I'm being bombarded with incomplete information here regarding any options I may or may not have.

We have great upgrade option in Epic-X, but every client (or DP anyway) I know wants more DR. If Monstro delivers that, thats what they'll want. Thats what they tell me. I personally agree, DR before resolution.

So, upgrade your sensor for $5000 approx to MX, or upgrade your camera to an amazing Epic-X with an amazing bundle. If I do the later, matching R1 resolution and frame rates, in a camera with a Monstro sensor, will now cost $33k in the form of a Epic FF35 new brain. A modular system hasn't made upgrading easier for me so far.

I'm not complaining, but it seems reasonable to me that future sensor upgrades shouldn't necessarily require greater CPU power if resolution stays the same, so why not make all brains capable of processing 16bit sensor, and make the sensors in the brains upgradeable without the cost of a new brain and chips? Its a greener solution, and only higher redcode rates would need a new brain.. I know, we a should be talking about MX..

In the meanwhile..please answer this single question which I've helpfully broken down into sub-questions :)


1a) Is the R1 still slated to get a Monstro upgrade option?

assuming yes..

1b) Would this be for release around the time the Monstro Scarlet cameras are released?

still assuming yes..

1c [i]) Will the higher bitdepth of a Monstro sensor translate to higher bitdepth flavour of redcode?

1c [ii]) Is it likely a R1 could output a higher bitdepth redcode anyway?

1d) Could you clarify whether the MX sensor is 15bit (upgrades post), or 12bit (as in original Epic release).

Thanks ;)

[Shawn Nelson]

I dont recall R1 to have EVER been on the schedule for a Monstro chip, and I've been paying attention. Perhaps you have a link to a previous post or announcement?

[Brian Timmons]

Monstro has a RED ONE upgrade path... as we promised from day one.

Jim

This was from the Monstro thread in 2008.

[Ryan E. Walters]

This was from the Monstro thread in 2008.

I remember that as well. While I would love to be able to put the Monstro sensor in my Red One at some point, with the new direction that Red is headed (smaller modularity) I doubt that this will still be the case. And by the time that sensor comes out, I highly doubt that they will still even be supporting the Red One- I mean we are talking about a chip that does not even exist.

[Anthony Gratl]

I remember that as well. While I would love to be able to put the Monstro sensor in my Red One at some point, with the new direction that Red is headed (smaller modularity) I doubt that this will still be the case. And by the time that sensor comes out, I highly doubt that they will still even be supporting the Red One- I mean we are talking about a chip that does not even exist.

Could someone from RED please comment on this quote as to what the future plans for the Red1 M-X'd camera might be, for framerates, redcode, and sensor technology?

Thanks kindly in advance

EDIT: okay, in hindsight this question is kinda ridiculous huh? I'm asking you to tell me the future plans for the company.

Sooo, simpler question: will the R1 continue to be upgradeable after M-X sensor install?

[Brook Willard]

Jim just said last week that there would be a Monstro path for the RED ONE.

[Jannard]

Jim just said last week that there would be a Monstro path for the RED ONE.

Misunderstood... you can NOT physically upgrade a RED ONE to Monstro. There is an upgrade path (as in trade-in).

As of now, the only Monstro sensors announced are FF35, 645 and 617.

Jim

[Mike Jacks]

If we upgrade to EPIC-X Stage 2 and keep our REDONE, and the REDONE camera is executed, does that mean I cannot use an "upgrade path (trade in)" on the REDONE to get a Monstro Sensor Epic camera? If this is true, and say I pass up on the EPIC-X "bundle" (either stage 2 or 3), will there be a similar bundle down the road for an EPIC MONSTRO sensor camera (be it FF35, 645, or 617) with added modules? Or would it be more of a stage 3 scenario?

[Luis Otero]

I do not think so. There is a timeline to upgrade. If you do not execute the upgrade within the time allotted for such stage, no matter what stage you selected, you just forfeited your ability to use the R1 for any upgrade.

[Jannard]

If we upgrade to EPIC-X Stage 2 and keep our REDONE, and the REDONE camera is executed, does that mean I cannot use an "upgrade path (trade in)" on the REDONE to get a Monstro Sensor Epic camera? If this is true, and say I pass up on the EPIC-X "bundle" (either stage 2 or 3), will there be a similar bundle down the road for an EPIC MONSTRO sensor camera (be it FF35, 645, or 617) with added modules? Or would it be more of a stage 3 scenario?

Most people are making money with their cameras... time is a big factor.

Jim

[David Battistella]

Does anybody know the status of the M-X upgrades?

Are they still happening?

David

[Vico Martin]

Does anybody know the status of the M-X upgrades?

Are they still happening?

David

yees, please. :smash:

[J.Burger]

As of now, the only Monstro sensors announced are FF35, 645 and 617.

Jim

Hmm… does this mean a Epic-X can not be updated with a Monstro sensor later?
*

[CJ Roy]

Hmm… does this mean a Epic-X can not be updated with a Monstro sensor later?
*

I think that's the point of having the different brains, or sensor blocks. You only replace that, not the rest of the body or modules.

[Jannard]

I think that's the point of having the different brains, or sensor blocks. You only replace that, not the rest of the body or modules.

Correct. Upgrade buy buying a new brain with dedicated sensor and electronics package instead of buying a new camera. That way you keep or sell your other one. You'll have two instead of one this way...

Jim

[Stephen Pruitt]

What number are we up to???? I'm really getting nervous!

Stephen

[Paolo Tinari]

Still early feb/08 batch, i have been told.

[Yean Loon]

Argh!! I'm March 08!!

[Raphael Varandas]

guys... i'm pretty lost about a MX upgrade and rocket pack...
is it still available? for how much?
cheers,

[James Press]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=39816:

"There is also bundle price for the sensor upgrade plus a RED Rocket™™™ card for $8750."-Jarred 14 Jan 2010

[Michael Epple]

So, has there not been a new calibration of the M-X sensor yet?

[nacamera]

Is there a concise list of features for the Red MX chip? I'm putting together a promo for our first MX arrival, and I can't find a definitive list of New Features for the MX. Just saying it "looks better" sounds a bit hollow.

Thanks!

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Is there a concise list of features for the Red MX chip? I'm putting together a promo for our first MX arrival, and I can't find a definitive list of New Features for the MX. Just saying it "looks better" sounds a bit hollow.

Thanks!

800 ASA
13,5 stops of DR
tungsten light usuable

these are the specs

[Tim Whitcomb]

Is there a concise list of features for the Red MX chip? I'm putting together a promo for our first MX arrival, and I can't find a definitive list of New Features for the MX. Just saying it "looks better" sounds a bit hollow.

Thanks!

Hi Bob!

Michael Cioni of LightIron Digital in LA did a comprehensive analysis here:

http://www.lightirondigital.com/LightIRON_Digital/LiDigital__MX_4K_STLLS.html

[nacamera]

Thanks Tim, You the man!

[Raphael Varandas]

Thanks James, appreciate that.
Best,


Mx all the way...