Red Zoom Lens

[Stephen Williams]

Hi All,

Can anybody tell me how many iris blades the Red Zoom has, and are the edges straight or curved when stopped down?

Stephen

[Roberto B]

stephen, i believe you're asking more than the red glass can be.. red is a good camera but it is not a film capture device.. same for the lenses.. cooke is a ferrari.. red is just a new digital manufacturer..

red marketing rocks.. even on you.. lol

[Adrian T.]

stephen, i believe you're asking more than the red glass can be.. red is a good camera but it is not a film capture device.. same for the lenses.. cooke is a ferrari.. red is just a new digital manufacturer..

red marketing rocks.. even on you.. lol

Huh? :huh:
So why isn't it allowed to inquire the number and form of the iris blades? Even RED lenses have them! :clown2:

[Stephen Williams]

stephen, i believe you're asking more than the red glass can be.. red is a good camera but it is not a film capture device.. same for the lenses.. cooke is a ferrari.. red is just a new digital manufacturer..

red marketing rocks.. even on you.. lol

Hi,

Not at all, Zeiss made the original S/Speeds with what looked like 3 blades. Very ugly bokeh. FWIW I think the Bokeh of S4's unattractive when stopped down, I shoot them wide open. It's a valid question not a criticism.

Stephen

Edit That's message 1000 LOL

[Graeme Nattress]

I wish I knew the answer to give you Stephen, but I don't. It's a good question though....

Graeme

[Roberto B]

Huh? :huh:
So why isn't it allowed to inquire the number and form of the iris blades? Even RED lenses have them! :clown2:i'm not referring the number nor the iris blades form but seems to me, or.. ehehehehe or stephen is getting to be overwhelmed by the red marketing..

he knows, we knows.. he has been very critical about red lenses.. with no exemption :) follow his posts since day one.. 16 months are many days and posts.. lol

red lenses will not be the same thing than cooke.. nor price.. thank God! :)

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Filmmaker's gang... I read words but don't understand a single sentence. What on earth are you talking about I'm completely lost.

[Brandon Fraley]

filmmaker's gang... have you been drinking?

[jaadgy akanni]

So far I'm happy with this thread because my most hated word hasn't been mentioned yet.

[Andrew Benz]

So far I'm happy with this thread because my most hated word hasn't been mentioned yet.

CA?...

[Brandon Fraley]

CA?...

lol i'm curious myself

[jaadgy akanni]

lol i'm curious myself

oh I hate saying this damn word...oh alright...COLLIMATION!!!

[Brandon Fraley]

obviously a glass joke (i had to look it up), don't get it myself, but thats probably best

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Filmaker's gang,

I have previously expressed an interest in buying Red Primes.

I am unable to criticize a lens until I have tested it, I am just an interested prospective customer, furthermore I choose lenses for a certain look, I don't want them all to be the same either.

My Best

Stephen


i'm not referring the number nor the iris blades form but seems to me, or.. ehehehehe or stephen is getting to be overwhelmed by the red marketing..

he knows, we knows.. he has been very critical about red lenses.. with no exemption :) follow his posts since day one.. 16 months are many days and posts.. lol

red lenses will not be the same thing than cooke.. nor price.. thank God! :)

[Roberto B]

no, i'm not drunk today.. yesterday, i don't remember.. but on the point, stephen.. this kind of things..

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?s=&showtopic=25285&view=findpost&p=191060

it doesn't help.. you wouldn't post anything that could embarasse anyone close, would you?..

we all love you.. i'm actually one of your fav readers.. i'm used to read everything you write.. you're an opinion maker.. because of that, you cannot be one here and another one there.. those hecklers suck.. please don't be a part of it..

signed
pedro/alejandro (shawn's courtesy), the people's watcher_s.. :) just one of them.. here we are more than seven now.. alejandro included (all share the same sideview everywhere.. ###.com forums included)

[Roberto B]

you're curious about their price, ain't you?..


Hi Filmaker's gang,

I have previously expressed an interest in buying Red Primes.

I am unable to criticize a lens until I have tested it, I am just an interested prospective customer, furthermore I choose lenses for a certain look, I don't want them all to be the same either.

My Best

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

you're curious about their price, ain't you?..

Hi,

No I am curious how the images look, I have older Cooke & Zeiss glass that cost rather less than Red's glass.

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

What was being disputed is Panavision have 200 Red cameras on order, maybe its 100, in a few months time we will all probably know.

Stephen


no, i'm not drunk today.. yesterday, i don't remember.. but on the point, stephen.. this kind of things..

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?s=&showtopic=25285&view=findpost&p=191060

it doesn't help.. you wouldn't post anything that could embarasse anyone close, would you?..

we all love you.. i'm actually one of your fav readers.. i'm used to read everything you write.. you're an opinion maker.. because of that, you cannot be one here and another one there.. those hecklers suck.. please don't be a part of it..

signed
pedro/alejandro (shawn's courtesy), the people's watcher_s.. :) just one of them.. here we are more than seven now.. alejandro included (all share the same sideview everywhere.. ###.com forums included)

[Roberto B]

Hi,

No I am curious how the images look, I have older Cooke & Zeiss glass that cost rather less than Red's glass.

Stephen

ah ah ah.. good answer.. btw, would you be interested to sell some of your old glass?

[Stephen Williams]

ah ah ah.. good answer.. btw, would you be interested to sell some of your old glass?

Hi Filmaker's gang,

That depends on how much I like Red's lenses which is why I am asking the questions! My primes are BNCR mount, so there are not ideal I guess for you.
I am hoping to test my Cooke 20-60 on a Red at IBC next week, don't know if I will be allowed but I have been making enquiries.

Stephen

[Roberto B]

yeah.. you inquire.. and that 100 quote was a good one.. but not an inquiry.. ehehehe you're a smart guy but nice one too.. very polite, a gentleman.. it's cool to have you over here.. not the same w/ those john does.. i wish you all the best on the red side also.. i hate asskissing and your view is always very critical.. believe it.. sometimes, you're the only one giving information where i can put my confidence.. non biased information.. the key

[Stephen Williams]

. believe it.. sometimes, you're the only one giving information where i can put my confidence.. non biased information.. the key

Hi Filmaker's gang,

I try to be non biased, but my opinion can also change after using equipment many times. The first impression is very important, however it may not be completely accurate.

Stephen

[Roberto B]

Hi Filmaker's gang,

I try to be non biased, but my opinion can also change after using equipment many times. The first impression is very important, however it may not be completely accurate.

Stephenfully agreed.. btw, you already have credits and this "your" detractor :) can just give you an exemption now.. thus, what's your opinion about the images seen so far?.. (non official pj's sure..)

edit
meeting the expectations or below the line?

[Michael Schrengohst]

What was being disputed is Panavision have 200 Red cameras on order, maybe its 100, in a few months time we will all probably know.

Stephen

On another forum Andy Romanoff of Panavision said:
"No truth to those rumors"

[Stephen Williams]

On another forum Andy Romanoff of Panavision said:
"No truth to those rumors"

Hi Red Guy,

I quoted Andy's mail on another board, that is what filmaker's gang referred to.

No truth to 200 cameras had been ordered, he did not say that no cameras had been ordered, not quite the same thing IMHO!

Stephen

[PaulClements]

GETTING BACK TO THE ZOOM LENS

This shot Jim posted (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4182) gives me positive thoughts to the 28-50mm Zoom lens in low light situations.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_1188758268.jpg

[Gavin Greenwalt]

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n134/im_thatoneguy/lensobservations.jpg

( ' ^ (
( '

[Graeme Nattress]

Gavin, I see similar things in other, "brand name" lenses used wide open, on a variety of digital acquisition devices.....

Graeme

[Mike Prevette]

Gavin, the answer is in the physics of light.

Remember the image hitting the senor is a cone piercing a plane. The tip of the cone is the in focus image, the rest of the cone goes progressively out of focus. As the cone passes through the plane, the out of focus parts of the cone 'rub' up against more green pixels than any other (thanks bayre) hens the color shift. Also keep in mind light doesn't come out of lenses at a perfectly 90degree to the chip. unlike film sensors photosites are buried in little buckets, so some shift happens as light skips over sites.

_mike

[Michael Schrengohst]

Hi Red Guy,

I quoted Andy's mail on another board, that is what filmaker's gang referred to.

No truth to 200 cameras had been ordered, he did not say that no cameras had been ordered, not quite the same thing IMHO!

Stephen

Oh yeah, if someone like Andy gets on the boards then something is up.
And only RED knows who else has ordered cameras. I am going to shoot
a little web feature with my HVX next month. Then another in Jan. with
RED. Should be an interesting contrast.

[Emanuel A.]

Gavin, I see similar things in other, "brand name" lenses used wide open, on a variety of digital acquisition devices.....

GraemeSame opinion here.

Digital acquisition is just a different story, not better nor worst. Just different.

If it goes better to my needs...

First, 'cause of the price and after succeeding the flexibility.

For example, the milkgirls. Graeme did a great job there, IMHO. This could be film stock. With the right tweaks.

[Stephen Williams]

Gavin, I see similar things in other, "brand name" lenses used wide open, on a variety of digital acquisition devices.....

Graeme

Graeme,

Those "Brand name" lenses were probably designed for film use not digital. Hopefully Red Primes designed specifically for the Red one won't have such issues.

Stephen

[Graeme Nattress]

Some of them were designed for digital and some for film. I'm not getting into naming names, but it's a nasty lens chromatic aberation that's so annoying, and it's in practically everything I've tried that's wide open. So I tried some digital stills gear and found that they could be even worse, even on "digital" lenses, again, on fast lenses wide open.

Graeme

[Hans von Sonntag]

All of B4 HD-ENG lenses I've been working with show these chromatic aberations, some more (wide angle zooms), some less - greenish and magenta, even stopped down.

Pretty annoying if you pay 20k or more for a lens. One big reason to avoid the B4 route on RED.

Hans

Edit: Never saw these things on 35mm. Was blind in these days probably. Does anyone know wether this is a "digital" problem? Zeiss DigiPrimes were fine, even shot wide open (2/3 needs to be shot wide open).

[Graeme Nattress]

I found that stopping down really killed the issue. Some lenses needed more stopping down than others though.

The same sort of thing happened in the stills world, where they found that the precision and low noise of digital showed up things which they'd not seen before in the lenses.

I don't buy that it's the bayer pattern that causes the green / purple though, as that, you'd expect if it were bayer, would produce problems the size of 1 pixel, and the problems are much greater than that. It's also in the raw data before demosaic, so it's not the demosaic algorithm (we tried lots, just to be sure). The green stuff is the opossite of the purple stuff, and that's been well known in digital for a long while. There are many theories to the cause, but no definitive answers as far as I can see.

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos1dsm3/eos1dsm3_sample-e.html shows the exact same issue quite clearly.....

Graeme

[Hans von Sonntag]

My experience with colour aberations were only on 3CCD cameras like Sony F900R. If it is a CMOS issue it is also a 3CCD issue. It would be really interesting to test the lenses that create the colour aberations on RED on 35mm as well.

Hans

Edit: Any idea why the colour aberation is on the border where dark areas meet overexposed white areas?

If you stopped down the lenses did you change the exposure? If this is the case a test with NDs to keep exposure would be interesting.

[Stephen Williams]

I'm not getting into naming names, but it's a nasty lens chromatic aberation that's so annoying, and it's in practically everything I've tried that's wide open.

Graeme

Hi Graeme,

If those lenses are still manufactured I think you should name names, if they are 30 years old designs that are mo longer sold then that's another matter IMO.

Even better show the same shot with different lenses.

Stephen

[jbeale]

Can anyone tell me what the Red 18-50 lens physical dimensions are? Specifically the outside diameter at the front (not the front element, but the outer metal ring, which has a red stripe around it in this photo: http://www.red.com/skin/img/lenses/l2.jpg?1186471054 ).
Basically, if I had a tube that I had to fit the front of this lens completely into, what would the inner diameter of that tube be?

[Andreas Höhn]

it looks like the Red Zoom has a 7 leaf Iris. It would be nice to get some informations on RED Lenses.

[Adrian T.]

it looks like the Red Zoom has a 7 leaf Iris. It would be nice to get some informations on RED Lenses.

I also counted 7 slightly curved blades in the 2kflowers clip:

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/4897/bladesgv6.jpg

[Johan Lindgren]

All of B4 HD-ENG lenses I've been working with show these chromatic aberations, some more (wide angle zooms), some less - greenish and magenta, even stopped down.

Pretty annoying if you pay 20k or more for a lens. One big reason to avoid the B4 route on RED.

Hans

Edit: Never saw these things on 35mm. Was blind in these days probably. Does anyone know wether this is a "digital" problem? Zeiss DigiPrimes were fine, even shot wide open (2/3 needs to be shot wide open).

Those "chromatic abberations" you see in most B4 ENG lenses are due to the 3CCD design. I´m not sure exactly what causes this but the component colors are a little of from each other in the focal plane, its said to cause this magenta-green problem. Zeiss made their digi-lenses with this in mind so they are as a result of that free from this phenomen.

Check it out on their homepage

http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B8B6F/EmbedTitelIntern/DigiPrime-Artikel-Gaengler2002/$File/spie2002.pdf

Roll down to
"4 the camera interface"

I dont know if for the same reason, they would be lesser suited for the RED camera or not.

Johlan

[Hans von Sonntag]

Good finding!

The abberations I was refering to were the ones Gavin Greenwalt found on RED-Footage. This is a non-3CCD camera. I'm sure the 3CCD system with the beam splitter does not make optics better and even more difficult for lens builders to calculate abberation-(almost)free lenses.

Still I don't know by now wether this is a "digital" phenomenon on not. Anynone saw this on 35mm footage? I never came across this on 35mm. Is film more forgiving? And digital more prone to this? Will opticts that serve well on 35mm show with RED these awful abberations?

Hans

[brickwall]

I found that stopping down really killed the issue. Some lenses needed more stopping down than others though.

The same sort of thing happened in the stills world, where they found that the precision and low noise of digital showed up things which they'd not seen before in the lenses.

I don't buy that it's the bayer pattern that causes the green / purple though, as that, you'd expect if it were bayer, would produce problems the size of 1 pixel, and the problems are much greater than that. It's also in the raw data before demosaic, so it's not the demosaic algorithm (we tried lots, just to be sure). The green stuff is the opossite of the purple stuff, and that's been well known in digital for a long while. There are many theories to the cause, but no definitive answers as far as I can see.

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos1dsm3/eos1dsm3_sample-e.html shows the exact same issue quite clearly.....

Graeme

You are correct that its not the Bayer pattern causing problems. The Canon image you linked to clearly shows longitudinal chromatic aberration. More precisely, its the secondary spectrum thats showing. A well-designed apochromat or superachromat will not have that. There also appears to be some artifacts from a poorly manufactured aspheric surface.

Its my personal belief that lenses will have to get far better in the near future to catch up with advances in camera and projection technology. As a lens designer, I'm prepared to do something about it.

Brian

[Mike Prevette]

I think a few of you mis understood my post. I wasn't blaming the issue on the Bayer system, merely pointing out the added green resolution of the system was responsible for the tint of the aberrations posted here earlier. if this were not the case, and these were more standard chromatic aberrations you would see corresponding (yet opposite) offsets in the other colors.

_mike

[Sean R.]

Stephen wrote:Can anybody tell me how many iris blades the Red Zoom has, and are the edges straight or curved when stopped down?


18-50 has 7 blades and mild curve

50-150 has 9 blades and mild curve

300 has 9 and a mild curve

[Graeme Nattress]

Mike, the green is balanced by purple. It's a different kind of chromatic aberation than normal. I don't think it's bayer pattern influenced in it's colours because the direction of the effect changes, whereas bayer effects have constant direction.

Graeme

[Mike Prevette]

Wouldn't they always appear to radiate from the center out?

[Graeme Nattress]

Yes, they radiate, whereas bayer artfact stuff is constant across the image.

Graeme

[chuck colburn]

You are correct that its not the Bayer pattern causing problems. The Canon image you linked to clearly shows longitudinal chromatic aberration. More precisely, its the secondary spectrum thats showing. A well-designed apochromat or superachromat will not have that. There also appears to be some artifacts from a poorly manufactured aspheric surface.

Its my personal belief that lenses will have to get far better in the near future to catch up with advances in camera and projection technology. As a lens designer, I'm prepared to do something about it.

Brian

Hi Brian,

I'm interested in hearing about what your prepared to do about it.

thanks,

Chuck

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I guess I don't see it that often because I exclusively use primes (and not all that fast ones at that) in my 35mm still photography. If that abberation tends to happen at wide open on fast zoom glass I wouldn't see it very often.

[brickwall]

Hi Brian,

I'm interested in hearing about what your prepared to do about it.

thanks,

Chuck

Hi Chuck:
Early in my career I kept wondering whether there was anything really new to do in lens design. Experience has taught me that there is alot of room for improvement in photographic/cinematographic lens design. Yes, I am working on a specific project, but all I can say right now is stay tuned.

[Anders Holck]

Hmm, interesting :-)

[David Cubbage]

The 18-50mm Red Zoom seems to be performing very well according to Evin; but having ordered a set of Red Primes with my camera, I am wondering when we will hear any updates from Red on their development.

I went for Red lenses because they are matched to the camera sensor but it was a difficult choice to make between going for the Red primes or the Red Zoom; but in the end 5 Primes from 15mm-85mm was just too good an opportunity to miss for under $20k. Although I think I may well buy a Red Zoom at a later date.

[darryl phinnessee]

Anders your steadycam reel is a thing of beauty!
Very inspiring!

[donatello b]

"Primes are on a delay... now Spring 2008."

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4436&page=6

[pablokorona]

i'd just like to see a thorough lens test, evaluation and comparison of the red with other lenses.

Thats all.

Show the red v. cooke, v zeiss primes, v nikon - i'm sure people want to see these evaluations, and my hopes are that people are doing those tests right now. My hopes take into account that such acts would be generous and detract from actually getting out there and shooting!

I hope this will be conducted at the LART

[donatello b]

Cooke S4 & Zeiss ultra & master primes have been out for awhile ... i don't see any Cooke vs. Zeiss test out there ???
i have seen some Cooke test and some Zeiss test but not together ...
i don't think there will be night & day differences between any of them ...
sometimes that 10% better cost 60% more ..for some it is worth the extra cost - others not worth it ...

[Andrew Benz]

Although this is known here... "The Prime set is delayed until March 2008. The 18-85mm is now scheduled for Summer 2008."

This is new and per Jim..."The 50-150mm zoom will deliver in small quantities 1st of November, larger quantities after that." I asked when this might deliver two or three days ago along w/ "when is the RED grip going to be available" to no avail here... thats fine, just glad to have some info. Thought I would share w/ the class. Also, great to have an idea on the red grip release and price... very happy guy here.

[Morning Glory]

This is new and per Jim..."The 50-150mm zoom will deliver in small quantities 1st of November, larger quantities after that."

sorry, andrew, can you help me out? did jim post this onn reduser? i can't seem to find it in any of his posts.....

[Andrew Benz]

sorry, andrew, can you help me out? did jim post this onn reduser? i can't seem to find it in any of his posts.....

No worries Garth, here is the full meal deal quote from c##.com...

[/QUOTE]We can certainly deliver a RAW port... we just don't have an order for one. And I continue to "not recommend" it. Our image is now so clean that you have to wonder why anyone would want to record 335MB/sec. if they don't have to. We'll sell you one, but be warned. You can use a Codex box to record to or other options. We haven't spent too much time thinking about all the other options because there is no demand. And we still have our hands full getting all the features enabled.

We are delivering the camera body, rail system, batteries and charger, 18-50mm zoom, 300mm, CF cards and some mics. extras now. The 50-150mm zoom will deliver in small quantities 1st of November, larger quantities after that. The Prime set is delayed until March 2008. The 18-85mm is now scheduled for Summer 2008.

Hope that helps,

Jim[/QUOTE]


My apologies to Jim and Stephen Williams if this is not allowed, but seeing were are in a period of "glasnost" and the cold war seems to be thawing...
I hope this helps.

Cheers--- Andrew

[Morning Glory]

Thanks Andrew, helps me alot. and i thought i was the perfect jj stalker. pah, amatuer, only sticking to reduser! I learn at your feet.

[Andrew Benz]

Thanks Andrew, helps me alot. and i thought i was the perfect jj stalker. pah, amatuer, only sticking to reduser! I learn at your feet.

:biggrin: Damn Garth... you got me.:shiftyph34r: :devil:

Actually this insane project has forced me grow into areas of ownership and acquisition capabilities that were not in the cards for me for a few years--- much less at these prices. Jim's mission of getting really good glass into all our hands only fuels this need to create, package, sell and build great relationships through the process. These are great days to grow.