Second Day Goodies

[Tonaci Tran]

Oh my god.. now this is what I am talkin about.
red compact zoom

http://www.appliedvisual.com/tonaci
handtest

[Brandon Fraley]

where is it :(

[Nook Kim]

I don't think it's up, yet. Or Tonaci is still uploading it.

[Carl-August Savgård]

http://www.appliedvisual.com/tonaci/handtest.zip

[Nook Kim]

Thanks for the link!

[Damien Molineaux]

Oh my god.. now this is what I am talkin about.
red compact zoom

http://www.appliedvisual.com/tonaci
handtest

thanks, whatever it is, dowloading now - 34 %

If you get a chance, I'd really like to know of what you (Blaire I guess) got as far as accessories. What new info did you hear about yesterday ? Were all the cameras already configured with the CF module ? Is it correct the EVF is not available yet ? Did everybody also have an LCD on order, or are some planning to use a third party monitoring solution ?

What recording options are available, 2k windowed or not ? Any frame rates besides 24 ?

Ok, I'll stop there with questions. If any of the 25ers is willing to answer a few of my questions, go bless them (manner of speaking).

Many thanks, cheers,
Damien

PS finished dowloading, I'll check it out

[Owen James]

Very nice...

[Roberto B]

thanks, whatever it is, dowloading now - 34 %and now?.. lol

[Roberto B]

Very nice...where's it?..

[Damien Molineaux]

wow ! nice detail, nice shallow DOF !

However I'm having a little pain looking at these pictures at 100% on my powerbook 12", why are they so BIG ?! ;-)

thanks for sharing
Damien

PS I'm getting myself a 17" HD MacBook as soon as I can

[Dexter Gregoire]

I can see your fingerprint with a beautiful background blur. WOW, Nice.

[Sam Druckerman]

The link in the first post isn't working...

But this does...

http://www.appliedvisual.com/tonaci/handtest.zip

[Jim Arthurs]

Thanks for sharing these with us...

...if possible, PLEASE turn off the sharpening in the software app when you export... it's the first thing you see when you look at the image from a technical point of view... it stands out in a quick viewing as an overly defined boarder between light and dark, and if you whack on levels it's VERY apparent for what it is...

http://ftp.datausa.com/imageshoppe/outgoing/RED/handtest_sharpening.jpg

http://ftp.datausa.com/imageshoppe/outgoing/RED/edge_sharpening.jpg

[Alexander Nikishin]

Pleeeease give us some real shots to judge.

Just a wide of a kitchen nook with a side light.

A shot from the beach.

Under a shady tree with the clouds and sky in the background.

Turn some sprinklers on and shoot away.

Let's not become the "Hey I got a new camera and I'm shooting my dog all day" sort of crew. :biggrin:

Never the less, everything you guys are doing is much appreciated.

[Damien Molineaux]

and now?.. lol

there...

for those with lower bandwidth, or still waiting, or that want to see first...

edit : that would be a 2k version, web saved in PSD in jpeg 80% quality

[Rob Lohman]

What recording options are available, 2k windowed or not ? Any frame rates besides 24 ?

Currently only 4K 2:1 (4096 x 2048) at 23.976, 24.00, 25.00, 29.97 & 30.00 fps (not entirely sure about the last two)

[Graeme Nattress]

Sharpening is for final viewing, not for mucking with the levels to see what's going on with the image. It's to show how sharp and nice the images can be when you add just enough of just the right amount of sharpening right at the end, with the target display method in mind - pretty much just what you'd do with a DSLR image for print or display.

Graeme

[Roberto B]

there...

for those with lower bandwidth, or still waiting, or that want to see first...

edit : that would be a 2k version, web saved in PSD in jpeg 80% qualitythx!!

[Justin O'Neill]

Blair will be receiving his LCD and EVF next week. The RED DRIVES were not available yet.

[Roberto B]

Currently only 4K 2:1 (4096 x 2048) at 23.976, 24.00, 25.00, 29.97 & 30.00 fps (not entirely sure about the last two)25fps, are you sure?.. this would rock..

btw, i already left two questions on the other thread.. if you'll wish to give a response there.. it'd be appreciated.. thx

[Roberto B]

Blair will be receiving his LCD and EVF next week. The RED DRIVES were not available yet.any idea when?..

[brandon herman]

this is all awesome!

Thanks, guys!

one request: can we see more moving footage; maybe rack focus from hands to face?

Thanks again!

[Ruairi Robinson]

this is all awesome!

Thanks, guys!

one request: can we see more moving footage; maybe rack focus from hands to face?

Thanks again!

Could someone just walk out onto the street with it, in broad daylight, with a wide angle lens.

Cheers,
R.

[Jim Arthurs]

Sharpening is for final viewing, not for mucking with the levels to see what's going on with the image. It's to show how sharp and nice the images can be when you add just enough of just the right amount of sharpening right at the end, with the target display method in mind - pretty much just what you'd do with a DSLR image for print or display.
Graeme

Graeme... IMO, at this level and degree it's destroying the whole esthetic that YOU were aiming for with the look of RED images, smooth, clean and naturally sharp...

...besides, 16bit .tiff's just beg to be "mucked" around with... :)

[Zas]

Could someone just walk out onto the street with it, in broad daylight, with a wide angle lens.

Cheers,
R.

Seconding this heartily. Dying to see some ordinary outdoor footage

[Steve Freebairn]

Everyone remember there are a group of us mirroring, so don't crash Jeff's server! :)

[Justin O'Neill]

any idea when?..

Toni didn't know when the RED DRIVES were coming in.

[Alexander Nikishin]

C'mon guys you've got two DP's in your crew, Brook and Evin, show us what you can do, now is both RED's and your time to shine.

[Tonaci Tran]

http://tonaci.com/rcine.png
screnn cap form my desktop. we are just to get underway with some shots.. with some talent/actors
brb

[Sanjin Jukic]

Footage Please!!!!

Even REDAlert to download it (free) and than original REDcam files (r3d)
and than WE CAN PLAY and dance together!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Alexander Nikishin]

we are just to get underway with some shots.. with some talent/actors
brb

Awesome! :biggrin:

[Floris Liesker]

Whats with the ladder? Why is it every shot?
Is that perhaps Jim's secret?

[Roberto B]

http://tonaci.com/rcine.png
screnn cap form my desktop. we are just to get underway with some shots.. with some talent/actors
brbgood stuff.. can you upload this one?..

[Graeme Nattress]

Graeme... IMO, at this level and degree it's destroying the whole esthetic that YOU were aiming for with the look of RED images, smooth, clean and naturally sharp...

...besides, 16bit .tiff's just beg to be "mucked" around with... :)

Understood, Jim. But i'm not the shooter or post producer of those shots, and some will like how that looks. I'm not an aesthetic dictator :-)

That said, I'm researching more image friendly sharpening that I should be able to put in future builds :-)

Graeme

[Tonaci Tran]

for today.. I am dumping to my esata external drive and making backups to blair's firewire800 raid.

[Anders Holck]

Graeme, I really like lightrooms highlight recovery slider, as it allows you to use the exposure slider for general gain, then use the recovery slider for specular recovery to avoid harsh digital clipping.
have you experimented with highligt recovery algorithms, not to recover sensor overexposure but to gently re introduce upper highlights lost to clipping in post gain.
You can do it with a curve, but its just so damn hard to edit..

[brandon herman]

I really like lightrooms highlight recovery slider

yes! one of my favorite software tools ever! Lightroom is a great reference all around. I also love the Fill Light feature....

[Mike Prevette]

I second the Lightroom reference. The way it handles highlight and shadow recovery is amazing. I use it on almost every shoot, and it has the bonus feature of showing you it's mask when you hold the option key down. I was so shocked when I learned to use it properly.

_mike

[Steve Freebairn]

yes! one of my favorite software tools ever! Lightroom is a great reference all around. I also love the Fill Light feature....

Me too! Can someone upload redalert and some raw files?

[Damien Molineaux]

Currently only 4K 2:1 (4096 x 2048) at 23.976, 24.00, 25.00, 29.97 & 30.00 fps (not entirely sure about the last two)

Thanks Rob, were you there for D day ?

See you at IBC next week right ?!

Cheers,
Damien

[MikeHedge]

for sure on Lightroom CS3. genius

[Damien Molineaux]

Blair will be receiving his LCD and EVF next week. The RED DRIVES were not available yet.

thx, do you know what they're using for viewing ?

Cheers,
Damien
(Time to go to bed again, damn this time zone thing, couldn't we do with it like the dvd zones (note : in Switzerland TVs play back both PAL and NTSC, most DVD players are multizone and you can find zone 1 and 2 DVDs in all video stores !))

[Justin O'Neill]

thx, do you know what they're using for viewing ?


I believe it is Evin's Panasonic HDSI monitor.

[Graeme Nattress]

Understood about highlight recovery. What we're doing is called DRX in REDAlert, which "fixes" colours caused by differential clipping of the three channels. Then you can just back off on the exposure slider and see all the highlight detail that's there in the image. That will make the image dark, but you'll have all the info there you need for grading.

The difference between what we're doing and lightroom, is we expect you to grade the images afterwards.

Graeme

[Steve Tammi]

I believe it is Evin's Panasonic HDSI monitor.

And Blair's eCinema.

[Mike Prevette]

Understood about highlight recovery. What we're doing is called DRX in REDAlert, which "fixes" colours caused by differential clipping of the three channels. Then you can just back off on the exposure slider and see all the highlight detail that's there in the image. That will make the image dark, but you'll have all the info there you need for grading.

The difference between what we're doing and lightroom, is we expect you to grade the images afterwards.

Graeme


Is this something we might see more in depth in REDCINE?

Also thanks for touching on differential clipping. is DRX essentially a gamma stretch to fix the saturation point of the channels?

_mike

[Anders Holck]

Thanks, noted.
Makes perfect sense.

(Still If you don't know what to do with your time at same point...I think it would be a great asset in the RedCine toolbox.)

But anyways again congrats on the success so far. It all seems to be working for the early, early, early adopters. Can't wait to get mine, thats for sure :-)

[Graeme Nattress]

No, DRX is not a gamma stretch. It's a fill in the missing colour channel with realistic looking data type thing.

It's tempting to take the raw conversion tools so far that they do everything. I don't think this is the right way though, as grading should be left to specialist tools, and raw conversion should give them the best data to work with.

Graeme

[brandon herman]

I guess I understand about RAW conversion vs. true grading. My concern is one of budget. I can't afford to go rent time on same crazy expensive online system; I want something I can do on my desktop with a properly calibrated monitor, even if the process takes a little longer.

So, I'm all for more options and the "everything" route.

[Anders Holck]

Yep, making the toolbox really extended could render some photographers MIA because they spend all spare time in Redcine :-)

If a customer asks for it, and just wants quick conversion into something pretty, a soft clip thingie would be very usefull.

just a thought :-)

(Hmm...I seem to fight for all the low class features lately, well)

[Hrvoje Simic]

Okaay....Brook's hand wants to come out of my screen and in the same time "The Ring" is on TV.

I'm disconnecting the phone.

[Deanan]

I guess I understand about RAW conversion vs. true grading. My concern is one of budget. I can't afford to go rent time on same crazy expensive online system; I want something I can do on my desktop with a properly calibrated monitor, even if the process takes a little longer.

So, I'm all for more options and the "everything" route.

Think of these apps more as the lab/telecine rather than finishing.

[Álex Montoya]

Playin' with the handtest:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1434_1188690775.jpg

I must admit that I was expecting more footage by today, to be completely honest... and I don't mean you, Brook and Tonaci.

[bbb]

Okaay....Brook's hand wants to come out of my screen and in the same time "The Ring" is on TV.

I'm disconnecting the phone.

I do not belive this....hahahahaha (Sjajno...cak se i moja zena smijala;-)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Hey guys, there was a glitch with the appliedvisual.com host earlier today -- that's why the handtest didn't initially show without specifying the exact link. All back to normal, complete list of current files is at

http://www.appliedvisual.com/tonaci

Stupid server had a generic index.html file template I uploaded and it created an index with currently available files as of 10:30am and was set to auto-update every 12 hours. Sorry 'bout that, I got rid of the html file and the auto-index thing. Rock on.

As for more footage from others, I'm a bit surprised too... I figured someone else would have something to show. Kinda weird, IMO. I'm sure Gibby and offhollywood will have stuff soon, but I bet they won't show anything unless it's aces. Or "all killer, no filler" in Gibby's case.

[Alexander Nikishin]

I do not belive this....hahahahaha (Sjajno...cak se i moja zena smijala;-)

Ti gavarish pa ruski?

[brandon herman]

Think of these apps more as the lab/telecine rather than finishing.

Yeah, I understand the distinction, and the intent of the software. I was just hoping that it could be a little closer to a complete pro finish.

What software would I "finish" on? (Sorry; I'm just not familiar with that end of things.)

I do a lot of still photography (Canon 20D), and I use Lightroom to "develop" those images. And when I'm done, I'm DONE.

When I finally get a studio budget and I'm grading in a screening room with a 10ft screen, I'll embrace the total power of the proper tools. But for my indie films or a music video, is RED Alert! (and RED Cine) going to allow me control in a similar way? Can I come up with preset looks of my own, funky color schemes, contrasty BW, etc? The footage we've been seeing is really impressive, but "developed" with a fairly normal and straightforward look.

Thanks for writing and explaining all of this! My background is in video production, but I had been so frustrated by the affordable tools that I've spent the last two years almost exclusively in photography (while checking reduser.net about twice a day). I hope to be renting a RED ONE in November for a project.

[Tonaci Tran]

update.. we have been shooting lots of outdoor stuff. brb

[bbb]

Ti gavarish pa ruski?

HRVATSKI-CROATIA

Sorry...could not help myself-But I was watching the same thing :ohmy:

[Graeme Nattress]

For what you want in highlights - it's there, just not in the form you're used to:

1) DRX takes care of naughty colours in highlights,

2) back off the exposure until nothing in the data is clipping

3) apply tonal curve or use the brightness control to brighten up the image.

That's basically what the toosl for fixing highlights are doing in other packages.

For low budget 4k finish, I'd probably be looking at After Effects. For finishing, you really need controls that allow you to mask and matte areas of the image for different treatment - ie secondaries or power windows or the like.

Graeme

[Geoff Reisner]

update.. we have been shooting lots of outdoor stuff. brb
Awesome! Looking forward to it! I can do coffee and craft runs for your crew if needed :)

[Tonaci Tran]

http://tonaci.com/indoor.png

screen cap so you guys can see the settings

[brandon herman]

For low budget 4k finish, I'd probably be looking at After Effects. For finishing, you really need controls that allow you to mask and matte areas of the image for different treatment - ie secondaries or power windows or the like.

Graeme


Thanks!

Ok, After Effects I'm pretty familiar with. Not so much for pro finishing and power windows, but a little bit. I feel better just knowing I can do it with tools I already have.

This is awesome!

(Plus, AE integrates very well with the new Premiere Pro CS3. So this all makes me very happy!)

[Álex Montoya]

I am sure you can recover more detail on the shirt. Why don't you lower exposure and use the curve to compensate the resulting image?

[Álex Montoya]

You can use power windows in AE with colorista

[Graeme Nattress]

There's probably a stop or so there waiting to be found. That image looks awfully bright for a linear light image though..... I'd back off the exposure (use the histogram or zebras to see where the clipping is) to maybe -1.0EV or 1.5EV, then either use the curve or the brightness control to brighten up the image without introducing hard clipping.

Graeme

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

That Tshirt is really scaring me.

Concrete, de donde eres?

[Álex Montoya]

Mac, me conoces.

[R. Gonzales]

http://tonaci.com/rcine.png
screnn cap form my desktop. we are just to get underway with some shots.. with some talent/actors
brb

Mr Tonaci,

Would you be able to tell us whether you are running RED Alert from a Mac Book or desk top?

Method

[Laco Zamba]

Concrete: Playin' with the handtest

It's beautiful. Thanks.

[Kevin Halverson]

Talent should NEVER be allowed to wear white. Whenever a white shirt look is called for, the wardrobe people always lightly die it with a slight violet color. Looks just a bit gray to the eye, but reads perfect on camera.

Why underexpose the face just to compensate for a poor wardrobe choice.

[Álex Montoya]

Talent should NEVER be allowed to wear white. Whenever a white shirt look is called for, the wardrobe people always lightly die it with a slight violet color. Looks just a bit gray to the eye, but reads perfect on camera.


I don't agree. Any modern DSLR could read detail in that shirt. My guess is that that's a case of poor raw processing.

[Graeme Nattress]

Concrete - look at the settings - exposure is set > 0 and hence is deliberately over-exposing the data. That's why it needs to be backed off, and brightness compensated by the brightness slider.

Graeme

[Álex Montoya]

Yeah, yeah, I know... I've told him the same thing.

As much as I love tonaci, I think that his decisions on RED Alert! are reducing the latitude in a couple of stops

[b e n t o n]

Playin' with the handtest:

I must admit that I was expecting more footage by today, to be completely honest... and I don't mean you, Brook and Tonaci.

Yes, me too.
with 25 cameras out there, just #19 coming back to us.

...well, I am sure the other 24 are in quite capable hands and I can understand,
everyone is no doubt quite busy.
Thanks Tonachi, Blair et all

[Kevin Halverson]

I don't agree. Any modern DSLR could read detail in that shirt. My guess is that that's a case of poor raw processing.

True, but your still burning dynamic range all due to a poor wardrobe choice. Not the best use of even a 12 bit acquisition system. Give the guy a gray t-shirt and reshoot the footage. It will allow for better exposure choices.

[Casey Green]

Tonaci,
Are you able to use the Zebra lines or are they not yet available?

[Álex Montoya]

I know this may sound patronizing, but the thing is that RED Alert! shouldn't be used to color correct the image but just to put the right white balance and to export the frame with the widest possible range to correct it afterwards.

Here's my advice:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1434_1188696270.png

Please, don't take it the wrong way. I really appreciate what you guys are doing.

[Alexander Nikishin]

http://tonaci.com/indoor.png

screen cap so you guys can see the settings

Brook, Evin, come on guys. :help:

[Mathew Mackereth]

For low budget 4k finish, I'd probably be looking at After Effects. For finishing, you really need controls that allow you to mask and matte areas of the image for different treatment - ie secondaries or power windows or the like.

Graeme

... if macs are all the go, and wih redcode raw suppot in FCP - what about "color" for a low budget finish?

in terms of workflow though - will post people (like me) be able to get our hands on redcine/ redalert as productions start gearing up using red cameras?

[laguun]

... if macs are all the go, and wih redcode raw suppot in FCP - what about "color" for a low budget finish?

in terms of workflow though - will post people (like me) be able to get our hands on redcine/ redalert as productions start gearing up using red cameras?

I am not sure if its the best idea to embed a 4k camera in a 2k post environment - even if a mayor percentage of the projects will be finished on 1080p, 2k or pal/ntsc.

The low price of the apple solution is really tempting, however, there are several solid 4k solutions available.

Some examples, even when going to master 2k from the 4k source.
- pan & scan. if your system is limited to 2k, you will loose resolution.
- noise reduction. oversampling the noise from 4k down to 2k is a great way to enhance snr without sacrificing resolution. Not doable on 2k systems.
- complex vfx pipelines. by scaling/layering/tracking etc, a good part of the resolution is lost. 4k is a blessing then.

Therefore i am pretty reluctant to go with fcs as main system here, even if i would love to and already own a license. There are, as of yet, i expect apple to improve that, simply several showstoppers for me. No 10/12bit rgb, no 4k, color had _massive_ issues, seems to become better now, propietary offline codec... hmmm.

If they would have 4k@12bit or float RGB i would buy another seat in the blink on an eye.

It will be a really interesting IBC. It seems that several nle/finishing/D.I. manufacturers are pretty keen on directly supporting red.

[Brook Willard]

There's plenty of detail in the shirt... none of it is overexposed. The same with the specularity on Steve's forehead in the earlier shot. We're still shooting over here... there'll be more time for the post end afterwards. :)

I haven't read the thread yet, I just caught a few quick points.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

I knew it! Thanks Brook.

[Roberto B]

That Tshirt is really scaring me.
are you talking about the blue?.. ehehehehe i don't see any problem.. :love: do you?.. :shifty:


http://tonaci.com/indoor.png


edit
he doesn't byte.. :innocent: ehehehe

[Álex Montoya]

Hey, Brook. When do you think we could expect more footage? It's 4am here and I was thinking about getting some sleep...

[Brook Willard]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/5_1188699125.png

See? Detail!

Any suggestions on processing, Graeme/Rob/etc.?

We're still shooting here... this is the first time I've sat down at the laptop all day. You may consider sleep... I'd hate to keep you up.

[laguun]

Hey, Brook. When do you think we could expect more footage? It's 4am here and I was thinking about getting some sleep...

yes! give us europeans something to dream of!

[Álex Montoya]

Now THAT'S much better

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Amazing!

[Brook Willard]

Remember, many of these screenshots and frame grabs are not even remotely color corrected. We shot them, loaded them and took a screen shot. All it takes is 10 seconds to get a good looking image... and 30 to get a better one.

[David Battistella]

... if macs are all the go, and wih redcode raw suppot in FCP - what about "color" for a low budget finish?

in terms of workflow though - will post people (like me) be able to get our hands on redcine/ redalert as productions start gearing up using red cameras?


Color is limited to 2K at this moment. Not sure if that will change in the upcoming releases though.

David

[jbeale]

There's plenty of detail in the shirt... none of it is overexposed. The same with the specularity on Steve's forehead in the earlier shot. [...]

Interesting- given that's the case, I can see how there's a learning curve associated with the Red Alert app. To me, the screen shot makes the white t-shirt appear to be more than a full stop past clipping. Does the camera tell you where the "real" clipping points are while shooting? I don't know if zebras are on the enabled featureset yet, but if you set the zebras to 100% does that include the headroom that can apparently later be recovered in post?

[Stu Maschwitz]

Any suggestions on processing, Graeme/Rob/etc.?

This is probably for Graeme to answer—but Brook, you seem to be processing to Linear Light, which might explain why the image is so dark. If you want it that dark then that's your choice of course, but the natural rendering of the camera would be better displayed on a normal monitor with some kind of gamma lookup. Unless the linear light mode uses some kind of display correction?

-Stu

[Graeme Nattress]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/5_1188699125.png

See? Detail!

Any suggestions on processing, Graeme/Rob/etc.?

We're still shooting here... this is the first time I've sat down at the laptop all day. You may consider sleep... I'd hate to keep you up.

Ah, I knew it was there!

Hard to advise long distance without that R3D file for me to play with, but you're heading in the right direction!

I don't know why you're grading in linear light though? Why are you not using the log or REC709 curve? I don't know why it looks so bright in the linear light mode - it should be as dark as hell.....

Graeme

[Roberto B]

excellent Mr. Nattress.. thx for your job..

[Brook Willard]

We're in linear because it looks better on our little screen. We're heading out for magic hour right now, but I'll try it in another mode once we get back.

[Graeme Nattress]

Interesting- given that's the case, I can see how there's a learning curve associated with the Red Alert app. To me, the screen shot makes the white t-shirt appear to be more than a full stop past clipping. Does the camera tell you where the "real" clipping points are while shooting? I don't know if zebras are on the enabled featureset yet, but if you set the zebras to 100% does that include the headroom that can apparently later be recovered in post?

The code in camera is very similar to the code in REDAlert, and yes, there's always a bit of headroom you don't see in camera. If you don't quite nail it in camera, that bit of headroom could be life-saving.

Graeme

[Graeme Nattress]

This is probably for Graeme to answer—but Brook, you seem to be processing to Linear Light, which might explain why the image is so dark. If you want it that dark then that's your choice of course, but the natural rendering of the camera would be better displayed on a normal monitor with some kind of gamma lookup. Unless the linear light mode uses some kind of display correction?

-Stu

Stu - you spotted that the same as me! Yes, I think they should have it set to the REC709 gamma curve for display and grading. Linear Light mode does not use any display correction - it's totally wysiwyg in all modes.

Graeme

[Graeme Nattress]

I'd recommend using REC709 for "normal" use - that's the app default. If you're going out to DPX and want the maximum precision in the data, use REDLog. If you're going out 16 bit tiff, or doing some kind of diagnostics on the image that a tonal curve would interfere with, Linear Light is useful.

Graeme

[Graeme Nattress]

excellent Mr. Nattress.. thx for your job..

Thanks. It's been one hell of a learning curve. RAW conversion is not something you can find in the textbooks - it's a mix of color science and secret sauce that we've had to learn as we go along, adding a few tricks of our own in the process..... It's been interesting to say the least.

Graeme

[jbeale]

> I don't know why you're grading in linear light though?

I'm curious why anyone would ever use linear, is that common in cine post work? My background is mostly photography and video, where I have never used a straight linear sensor curve, except doing technical measurements (spectrophotometry, as opposed to normal imaging for display).

wait- I see that apparently "linear" mode worked best on their display (!?) I have to wonder what kind of screen calibration is in use on that system outside of the red software. Well, no doubt all will become clear in time.

[Graeme Nattress]

As you say, linear is mostly for special uses, but I'm sure Stu will now pipe up on the benefits and uses of linear data. I remember him having some good illustrations of the benefits of linear data on his blog.

Graeme

[Stu Maschwitz]

I'm curious why anyone would ever use linear, is that common in cine post work? My background is mostly photography and video, where I have never used a straight linear sensor curve, except doing technical measurements (spectrophotometry, as opposed to normal imaging for display).

It's the color space of choice for visual effects work, where you need pixel value to represent light intensities 1:1. But it's not so good for grading or looking at.

Chances are, RED images will look flat and low-con in Rec709, but that's the whole point of shooting RAW. The color correction controls in Red Alert look to be enough to get a nice contrasty image in Rec709 if that's what you want, but really you should probably apply that correction using dedicated CC tools later.

I think Brook might like the look of the linear images because they have the effect of crushing the living heck out of black?

-Stu

[Stu Maschwitz]

As you say, linear is mostly for special uses, but I'm sure Stu will now pipe up on the benefits and uses of linear data. I remember him having some good illustrations of the benefits of linear data on his blog.

OK, now this is just creepy! :)

-Stu

[Chuck T.]

It will good to see footage from this shoot....

[Gabriel Beaudry]

It will good to see footage from this shoot....

Will we see the first time lapse from a Red?

[Mathew Mackereth]

If they would have 4k@12bit or float RGB i would buy another seat in the blink on an eye.

It will be a really interesting IBC. It seems that several nle/finishing/D.I. manufacturers are pretty keen on directly supporting red.

.. absolutely - i'm just finishing vfx for a second project at 4K on scratch - both were edited with avid - but from SD telecine stuff- so workflow would have been similar on FCP. at the moment just the option to ingest, edit and one-light non-destructively and put out VFX plates on an apple without the back and forthing from the 35mm neg are very attractive - a 2k pipeline in FCP (but able to export 4k plates for VFX) and a scratch online look very very good - basically the workflow lucas from assimilate was demoing at smpte/aftrs in sydney.

will be very interesting to see workflow evelopments at IBC.

[Alexander Nikishin]

It will good to see footage from this shoot....

Whos RED is that?

[Graeme Nattress]

It's the color space of choice for visual effects work, where you need pixel value to represent light intensities 1:1. But it's not so good for grading or looking at.

Chances are, RED images will look flat and low-con in Rec709, but that's the whole point of shooting RAW. The color correction controls in Red Alert look to be enough to get a nice contrasty image in Rec709 if that's what you want, but really you should probably apply that correction using dedicated CC tools later.

I think Brook might like the look of the linear images because they have the effect of crushing the living heck out of black?

-Stu

Yup, they can look a bit low contrast in REC709, especially in REDLog. And yes, the whole idea here is to get a good starting point for proper colour correction later on.

That's what the DI mode is for - no mucking around allowed in that mode - just get the white balance and exposure right and export, probably 10bit DPX log for a good grading.

Graeme

[Miltos Pilalitos]

I imported Brook's last screenshot to Fusion 5.2 and added a Gamut node where the Output Space setting was set to "ITU-R BT.709"

This is how it looks now:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/534_1188701509.png

It looks different (lower contrast) when displayed through the web browser compared with Fusion's view where it looks more balanced. I think that if you save this .png to your computer and reopen it, it will look better.

[Chris Forbes]

It will good to see footage from this shoot....

Great idea adding a little tape to the CF card for easy extraction.

[Graeme Nattress]

I don't think adding a post gamma is going help as the "brightness" control is a bit like a gamma control, but biassed towards the shadows much more than the highlights, whereas 'gamma' is centre-biassed.

I think if you want a bit of nice black crush to firm up the shadows, grade in 709 and add a touch of "contrast" - not much, just enough...

Graeme

[Miltos Pilalitos]

I don't think adding a post gamma is going help as the "brightness" control is a bit like a gamma control

Graeme you are right but i didn't touch the gamma or the brightness. The Gamut node in Fusion converts images to different colour spaces.

[laguun]

That would be Mark's (AKA "OffHollywood") #6 or #7.

beautiful.

[Graeme Nattress]

Ah, but brightness had been altered in the original image before you adjusted it.....

Graeme

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Oh yes! you are right!

[Tonaci Tran]

I apologize for the lack of activity her eon the board. We have been busy shooting alot of stuff. We are utilizing more time shooting and learning the camera..however we will get to posting alot more. Before we are done here, we'll post up some 2k dessert.

[laguun]

Before we are done here, we'll post up some 2k dessert.

nightcandy! man, the vfx renders i monitored here in the studio are done since 90 minutes and i am still sitting here :)

[Rob Lohman]

Also keep in mind that it's set to ISO 500, try setting that to 320 with a rec709 gamma curve

[Rob Lohman]

Thanks Rob, were you there for D day ?

See you at IBC next week right ?!

Yes, I was there. I'll be floating around IBC on Friday. Have to finish REDCINE stuff and so on :)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Color is limited to 2K at this moment. Not sure if that will change in the upcoming releases though.

It's also very slow... No way I would consider finishing anything longer than a 30-second spot with it if I'm working with resolutions greater than 720p. Seriously. It needs a major update.

[Joel Kaye]

I apologize for the lack of activity her eon the board. We have been busy shooting alot of stuff.

NO APOLOGY NEEDED. You should be shooting! Is anyone else posting stuff? No - and I don't blame them one bit. Take your time.

ok, that's enough time. hurry up.:biggrin:

[Harmonica]

I apologize for the lack of activity her eon the board. We have been busy shooting alot of stuff. We are utilizing more time shooting and learning the camera..however we will get to posting alot more. Before we are done here, we'll post up some 2k dessert.

No need to apologize when doing a huge favor. Just take your time, and when the time is right, make our jaws drop!:w00t:

[laguun]

It's also very slow... No way I would consider finishing anything longer than a 30-second spot with it if I'm working with resolutions greater than 720p. Seriously. It needs a major update.

sadly, yes. However, there are other $$$$ D.I. solutions emerging, also one for OSX.
Iridias has a 1080p version which is -really- good.
http://iridias.com/

Also it seems that they want to support RED RAw. When i spoke with a rep of them, he said that they would be really interested.

[Jarred Land]

im glad you guys got back on track.

Its easy to sway off course, and start pushing buttons and getting lost very quickly.

Evin has a Waveform there, and Im assuming he knows how to use it so i was surprised to see the botched images at the start of this thread... its something thats pretty important.. if stuff starts to look like wrong, back up. start over, ask questions. We are all here to help. Graeme is usually the smartest guy in the room and can help point you in the right direction. :)

Like Graeme said, this is new territory for most people, with a new workflow, a new camera and a new piece of software. Dont worry about your cameras being messed up, because me and Jim personally shot and tested each one of your cameras out.

[Gabriel Beaudry]

sadly, yes. However, there are other $$$$ D.I. solutions emerging, also one for OSX.
Iridias has a 1080p version which is -really- good.
http://iridias.com/


Thanks for the link, but do you know how much $ is their present version?

[Tonaci Tran]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/18_1188705847.jpg

Here's another random one. Forgive the colors and the horrible curve - that's my fault. I'm still trying to figure out what happens to colors between applications here.

I may put a little clip of this shot up in a few minutes - depends on how it looks when H.264 wreaks havoc.

[edit: this post was made by Brook... sorry! I forgot to sign out]

[Tonaci Tran]

\
Its easy to sway off course, and start pushing buttons and getting lost very quickly.

Evin has a Waveform there, and Im assuming he knows how to use it so i was surprised to see the botched images at the start of this thread... its something thats pretty important.. if stuff starts to look like wrong, back up. start over, ask questions. We are all here to help. Graeme is usually the smartest guy in the room and can help point you in the right direction. :)

Good points. The funny thing is that we kind of just kept shooting without ever looking at the footage afterwards. Many times it ended up online before we even got a chance to sit down and slide some sliders.

If exposure was botched at all, that's just excited carelessness on our part. :)

[edit: this post was made by Brook... sorry! I forgot to sign out]

[Jarred Land]

tonaci can you send a screen grab of your red alert setting on this clip?

and im very glad you guys are showing this and getting this kinda feedback loop going.. its what happens in the real world.

[Brook Willard]

tonaci can you send a screen grab of your red alert setting on this clip?

and im very glad you guys are showing this and getting this kinda feedback loop going.. its what happens in the real world.

Which clip? I'll see if I can find it.

[Jarred Land]

This one. And are your monitors set to 1.8 or 2.2 gamma?


http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/18_1188705847.jpg

[Evin Grant]

Evin has a Waveform there, and Im assuming he knows how to use it so i was surprised to see the botched images at the start of this thread... .

I wouldn't call them bothced just tested aggressively. Part of figuring this baby out is seeing where it's limits are. We knew that the stuff that was exposed three, four or five stops down wasn't going to be perfect but it's still damn nice if processed correctly. And it's hard to know how much of the waveform to trust, once you get the images into the computer it realy becomes harder to nail what the right exposure would be. It's very subjective and scene dependant. The first Blair "Hero" shot was properly exposed was it not?

[Brook Willard]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/5_1188707602.png

These aren't exact [we aren't saving everything... flying through settings quickly just to see what looks like what], but this is pretty much what I did to that one.

[laguun]

Thanks for the link, but do you know how much $ is their present version?

The Speedgrade HD is 9.999 here in the EU.
They offer a free trialout if you contact them.
Great product.

[Brook Willard]

Looks like gamma's 1.8.

[Jarred Land]

press the histogram button while you are looking at stuff, it will help you out to make sure your not crushing the blacks.

its also good to be looking at stuff in gamma 2.2.. it looks like your gamma is changing from your DI to your export.

[Jarred Land]

I wouldn't call them bothced just tested aggressively. Part of figuring this baby out is seeing where it's limits are. We knew that the stuff that was exposed three, four or five stops down wasn't going to be perfect but it's still damn nice if processed correctly. And it's hard to know how much of the waveform to trust, once you get the images into the computer it realy becomes harder to nail what the right exposure would be. It's very subjective and scene dependant. The first Blair "Hero" shot was properly exposed was it not?

heh heh.. i was complementing you Evin.. i know you have had that monitor for a few years now and i know u how to use it.

Shooting isnt the problem.. its processing, which can get a bit tricky. Even when i get a new tool i push all the buttons and crank all the knobs to get somewhere.

[david farland]

Did my own spectral analysis. Nice B curves (blue). Shoulder looks good. Elbow needs to be brought up a bit.

[Brandon Fraley]

Did my own spectral analysis. Nice B curves (blue). Shoulder looks good. Elbow needs to be brought up a bit.

are we talking image, or that sweet number in the blue dress? ;)

[Brook Willard]

Dude, that's Evin's 17-year-old cousin.

[Brandon Fraley]

SHHHHH! don't tell him i said anything!

[david farland]

um.....image

[Brandon Fraley]

um.....image

good call

[Antoine Baumann]

Laguun which manufacturer are you talking about?


It will be a really interesting IBC. It seems that several nle/finishing/D.I. manufacturers are pretty keen on directly supporting red.

[Brook Willard]

The day's over for us. Evin's driving back to LA, Blair, Tony and Opus [#19] are driving down to San Diego and I'm about ready to pass out in Anaheim.

*whew*

Time to read through this thread and answer some questions.

[Álex Montoya]

Seeing the last RedAlert! setup, IMO it is better to adjust the brightness just with curves. With them it is much more diffcult to crush blacks.

So I would leave the "brightness" slider alone and just adjust it with exposure (to recover all the possible information) and curves.

[Poi Boy]

I would agree concrete; IMO brightness sliders are never a good idea.
Aloha
-A

[Brook Willard]

Alright, so having read through the thread [and the "drama" within], here's how it went:

The computer we were using had a non-calibrated monitor with 1.8 gamma. It was using a generic RGB profile. We never got around to calibrating it.

The screenshots that were posted initially [the "botched" ones] were quite literally screenshots. The R3D files were opened in the app and the screenshot command was hit. No adjustment, no nothing.

We only chose linear because it looked better on the non-calibrated monitor. Since it looked better to our eyes, it seemed like a good idea to play with it.

I wish I had an Intel machine here to play with the footage. I don't have anything in my possession to check out and goof around with.

Any crushed blacks were a result of the non-calibrated monitor.

Any sharpening was either an accident [whoa, there's sharpening?] or a creative decision [let's see how Photoshop's sharpening looks...]. It's obviously off out of the camera.

As far as using different sliders and modes to achieve different looks is concerned... I can't tell you much. When I was playing with Red Alert!, I dove in face-first and just slid sliders until it looked decent [on that monitor, remember]. No proper method or theory or attention to extreme detail was paid... not by me anyways. I sat down, pushed some buttons and dumped a tiff or two on the desktop. Pulled it into Photoshop, blew it up to 100%, said "holy crap!" and ran back to shooting.

That is a basic "up to speed" update. I'm sure there are infinitely better ways of adjusting the footage in Red Alert! than what we did. We really weren't trying much... and anything we did try was in an uncontrolled [again, no calibration] environment.

It sounds like I'm making excuses... far from it! It's just hard to convey what's going on from second to second when we're all so freakin' excited to be playing with the best toy ever. My personal goal was to learn about the camera, shoot some stuff and get some footage online. We weren't going for the cinematography oscar and the images we created shouldn't be interpreted as indicative of the beauty this camera's capable of. If it looks "wrong", it's because we probably weren't trying that hard to get it "right" :)

I can't wait to write all about what the last two days have been like. I'm a little too tired to get into any coherent detail now, but man... this was just about the best weekend ever.

[Sam Druckerman]

Thanks Brook!

[Poi Boy]

thanks Brook, it was great fun folloing along and sharing in the fun. I think it is safe to say we all wanted to be there.
Aloha
-A
ps. what's up with an uncalibrated monitor ? so yesterday.

[Unwounded]

You guys are the bestisis.......keep up the good work......and keep us updated :)

[Brook Willard]

ps. what's up with an uncalibrated monitor ? so yesterday.

Heheh... not my computer. :innocent:

[I make it seem like the lack of calibration caused all the "problems"... far from it! It just made our rapid "good enough" judgment look a little less "good enough." It was a 30 second fix that I should've caught earlier]

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I'll loan you the quote I always used in college.

"It's not an excuse it's an explanation."

A little perspective can go a long way if you want to understand why something is the way it is. ;)

[casey warren]

I'll loan you the quote I always used in college.

"It's not an excuse it's an explanation."

A little perspective can go a long way if you want to understand why something is the way it is. ;)

haha....nice quote. Awsome

[Graeme Nattress]

If you're doing a basic contrast curve in the curve window, use the contrast control instead - quicker and easier. I'd use the curve if I'm attempting something "more adventureous".

Brightness is safe to use it doesn't cause clipping but brightens shadows while pinning the white point so that they get compressed, but not totally out of existance until the setting is very high.

Graeme

[Joel Kaye]

If you're doing a basic contrast curve in the curve window, use the contrast control instead - quicker and easier. I'd use the curve if I'm attempting something "more adventureous".

Brightness is safe to use it doesn't cause clipping but brightens shadows while pinning the white point so that they get compressed, but not totally out of existance until the setting is very high.

Graeme

You guys should grab your favorite colorist and do about an hour of video screen capture tutorials color correcting a variety of images with your software and post it online. Take it out of the marketing budget... don't wait until 1000 mediocre shots are posted and passed all over the Internet..

just a thought.

[Seung Han]

You guys should grab your favorite colorist and do about an hour of video screen capture tutorials color correcting a variety of images with your software and post it online. Take it out of the marketing budget... don't wait until 1000 mediocre shots are posted and passed all over the Internet..

just a thought.

That is a great idea. Good looking Red footage flying around the web, good for Red, great for us.

We all know that the Che films and Wanted will look great but if Red taught us some basic color correcting methods for Red footage I'm sure the images from those of us without massive budgets will improve greatly. Especially when we are getting to know our cameras and our workflow...

[Evin Grant]

If you're doing a basic contrast curve in the curve window, use the contrast control instead - quicker and easier. I'd use the curve if I'm attempting something "more adventureous".

Brightness is safe to use it doesn't cause clipping but brightens shadows while pinning the white point so that they get compressed, but not totally out of existance until the setting is very high.

Graeme

Graeme, I'm having trouble getting the output QTs to be the same brightness as the preview in Red Alert. If it looks god in Red Alert it's too dar in the 1k and too bright in the 2K. Is this a Gamma thing? How do I change the output Gamma?

Thanks.

[Graeme Nattress]

It's a nasty Quicktime Gamma issue that we're looking into. Basically, when we give Quicktime the "right" data, it decides that it knows best and starts changing things......

Graeme

[Evin Grant]

Any ideas about a work around for the time being. I have some absolutely awesome high DR stuff here but I don't want to post it like this becasue the QT conversion destroys my careful grade.

[Graeme Nattress]

You could make a quicktime from a tiff sequence instead of the quick export? Or from a DPX seq into After Effects. You'd get better quality anyway than the quicktime codec (for now).

As I say, it's a big issue with Quicktime that we're looking into deeply.....

Graeme

[Joel Kaye]

You could make a quicktime from a tiff sequence instead of the quick export? Or from a DPX seq into After Effects. You'd get better quality anyway than the quicktime codec (for now).

As I say, it's a big issue with Quicktime that we're looking into deeply.....


I vote to Test DPX vs. TIFF sequence and check quality vs. file size. You should be able to bring either format into Photoshop CS3 as well. (I think).

[Simon Blackledge]

Apple get a grip and sort this out! god! grrrrrrrrrr

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The best 'work around' is a *.wmv or divx and giving apple the finger until they get their act together. It's been like that for at least 5 years! Every time I update quicktime I always wonder to myself "Maybe today will be the day that they finally fix it." so I export a short clip.... nope! All of our clients want quicktime roughs... and I always have to attach a disclaimer "Quicktimes change the brightness and saturation, do not judge colors off of this file."
*Grumble grumble grumble*

[Graeme Nattress]

Gavin, it's only through a concerted effort from all members of the digital imaging community will this get changed. There's a new feature in FCP that could / should help and we're looking into it. That feature came about because of high-end user feedback, if memory serves me right.

Graeme

[Simon Blackledge]

God I hope so Graeme. I for one am sick of it.. and I've only been using Apple for 6 months.. :-/

[laguun]

Gavin, it's only through a concerted effort from all members of the digital imaging community will this get changed. There's a new feature in FCP that could / should help and we're looking into it. That feature came about because of high-end user feedback, if memory serves me right.

Graeme

i agree.
we never cared about really de-bugging that problem in detail, but one thing is for sure: QT overrides and/or ignores several (correct) YCbCr settings.

The workarounds are to have an external 3hrd party codec correcting this (blackmagic, aja), or as we (and it seems most of the older posthouses) do using 10-16 single frame sequences (dpx/tif) and avi.

I have to admit that i don´t understand why such issues as only 2k in FCP or the QT decoding-madness have not been adressed by apple. They have put so many manyears in so many features in many solid update cycles - why not in fixing the basics? Doesn´t make to much sense IMHO.

Hopefully red and its clients will provide a wakeup call to the people in charge in the near future.


p.s.
graeme - a good part of my concerms regarding a mixed YCbCr/rgb workflows relates to these issues. Its a great deal of additional logistics to keep track and manage all these conversion and rounding errors through a long and complex postproduction pipeline involving dozens of systems.

[laguun]

God I hope so Graeme. I for one am sick of it.. and I've only been using Apple for 6 months.. :-/

We are using FCP since v3 iirc, embedded in discreet / sony / avid / adobe. This nasty bug/issue/whatever they call it has always been there. For us its less of a problem, as we use fcp only as offline/conversion and will probably continue doing so until they implement a solid colorhandling (rgb>=10, xyz).

By adding 3hrd party hardware (which replaces the faulty codecs/libraries/whatever) you can wipe the problem out if you use only hd-sdi - however in a mixed format environment that adds another layer of possible problems.

I don´t know btw -- does the new FCP handle lin and log?

[Rob Lohman]

Evin: read the included readme file with the software ;)

We're outputting rec709 gamma. We inform QuickTime we're doing this and then QuickTime Player and Final Cut Pro will convert it to 1.8 gamma for display :(

Apparently this is "how it's supposed to work".

Shake & After Effects don't do this, for example.

For more info: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93794

You will most easily see this difference in the dark regions or in under exposed images.

You should not see this problem if you go out to an external monitor through say an AJA Kona. Whenever the incoming data is Y'CbCr it will assume it's rec709 (in HD) and convert that to 1.8 for viewing only (should not adjust it for rendering). With RGB data (which FCP will usually not request from the codec) it will do a 1.8 to rec709 gamma conversion on output apparently.

It's a mess, and I'm sorry it's there. If we have any updates on this situation or work around we will keep everyone informed!

We are looking hard into work arounds but it is sort of out our hands at the moment. Everyone is having this problem apparently...

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Gavin, it's only through a concerted effort from all members of the digital imaging community will this get changed. There's a new feature in FCP that could / should help and we're looking into it. That feature came about because of high-end user feedback, if memory serves me right.

Graeme

No I've given up. I've emailed Apple for years. I've posted on their support forums. It doesn't matter. I get the same answer every time.

For gamma shifts on a PC. "It's a problem with DirectShow and we would have to do a bunch work blah blah blah... we don't care... maybe some day.... we don't really care all that much... more pressing matters to address like the iphone... blah blah blah."

:ranting2: Quicktime "Pro" my ass.

[Jack Wester]

It's a mess, and I'm sorry it's there. If we have any updates on this situation or work around we will keep everyone informed!
Making this a sticky under Apple workflow might help raise the pressure for Apple to fix this problem.

[Simon Blackledge]

thing is I don't touch PC's.. and still have problems going from capture to comp to grade to output.

[Anders Holck]

It's so tragic. I remember when I read some of the punchlines of the upcoming Mac OS X back in '98. One sentence about Quartz/CoreGraphics read "All onscreen elements are colormanaged. Even Quicktime is rendered through Colorsync"
I found that truly revolutionizing what advanced colormanagement in a video architecture could bring us. Well that was 9 years ago, and still a pipedream apparently.

Reading a sentence like "The application assumes....to work around that" is just plain crazy.

Why assume anything when its wrong 50% of the time.
And dont get me started on the Field issues in FCP 6.
("Ok, your 1080psf material is now suddenly half res vertically after updating? Well that's because FCP 6 assumes you now want to de-interlace your psf material. Turn it off? no, you can't do that. But to work around that....")

Hopefully, The quicktime/FCP group will put some weight on your comments. At least you were featured on their web page.

(I have tried a few times to document the bugs I find through https://bugreport.apple.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/RadarWeb.woa/wa/signIn

Well, reported about 6 in FCP 5.1, and a 4 in FCP 6.0. They haven't fixed a single of them yet so not a great statistic)

[Gavin Greenwalt]

This might work for you apple people:
http://support.franticfilms.com/wb/default.asp?action=9&fid=14&read=74

edit: whoops nope that's for PCs only.

[laguun]

We're outputting rec709 gamma. We inform QuickTime we're doing this and then QuickTime Player and Final Cut Pro will convert it to 1.8 gamma for display :(
Apparently this is "how it's supposed to work".
Shake & After Effects don't do this, for example.
For more info: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93794
You will most easily see this difference in the dark regions or in under exposed images.
You should not see this problem if you go out to an external monitor through say an AJA Kona. Whenever the incoming data is Y'CbCr it will assume it's rec709 (in HD) and convert that to 1.8 for viewing only (should not adjust it for rendering). With RGB data (which FCP will usually not request from the codec) it will do a 1.8 to rec709 gamma conversion on output apparently.
It's a mess, and I'm sorry it's there. If we have any updates on this situation or work around we will keep everyone informed!

Thats why i am warning since months that YUVfloat and 8bitRGB in FCP are a bad couple for RED. Works flawless with HD-SDI i/o, but with a format/bitdepth/colorspace powerhouse as Red One anyone exposes the issues of an not really format aware postproduction pipeline.

On the discreet systems or the sony cobra here, there are settings for -every- indivdual clip.
decode as lin/log.
which colorspace - handle as yuv/rgb.
apply level conversion before/after rendering pipeline.
apply level conversion before/after output to display.
apply level conversion before/after output to tape/disc.
souce has 8/10/16/float space. round/convert/maintain bit deptht/gamma.
use/don´t use LUT.
all simply checkboxes. All that stuff is, as of yet, not implemented in qt/fcp and would be, basicly, necessary in order to fully use the potential of red.

Furthermore, in the last version of fcp, i have come to the impression that its in/export are not consistent (as in level conversion done or not depends on source/target codec etc).



We are looking hard into work arounds but it is sort of out our hands at the moment. Everyone is having this problem apparently...
as far i observe and measure it here: Its not RED issue - its in the postprocessing pipeline of qt/fcp and how both decide to convert/not convert levels., which then again is a variable depending on which hardware/codec the customer uses.

Oh boy, i would love to have our red already delivered here in order to press it through all the etalished workflows. Another 10 weeks *sigh*

p.s.
i attached a screen with the relevant discreet i/o control missing atm in qt/fcp.

[laguun]

thing is I don't touch PC's.. and still have problems going from capture to comp to grade to output.

flameop, osx runs on pcs. there is nothing different about the hardware of an apple or a dell pc.
its just the os.
Simply install windows (in paralells its even a window without reboot). Highly recommended.
Same for discreet smoke/flame, quantel generationQ etc btw - they all are usual pcs as well, with aja cards in the case of dicreet.

p.s.
i really miss irix/sgi... ah the gool ole days.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

If you guys at Red can't make apple to solve this gamma shift, I mean… who will.
We tried for years, many of us.